Author Topic: Elections in Europe  (Read 167569 times)

Online Libertine

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Re: Elections in Europe
« Reply #1360 on: October 13, 2023, 09:42:56 am »
Hugely important election in Poland this weekend.

Far right nationalists vs a liberal coalition led by Donald Tusk. Usual box of nasty tricks being used by the populists to sway the vote.

One of the most recent polls:




This is a great thread outlining what's at stake and the possible outcomes:

https://twitter.com/Mij_Europe/status/1712718696647385207

Or for those now living under the blue skies....

https://bsky.app/profile/mijrahman.bsky.social/post/3kbmjsiwij327

Online thaddeus

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Re: Elections in Europe
« Reply #1361 on: October 13, 2023, 10:19:21 am »
I've only read a little bit about it but two of the flagship policies PiS seem to be gaining popularity from are an almost doubling of child benefits and an anti-EU, anti-migration attack line of presenting Donald Tusk as an agent of Germany.

The former policy is just a good, old fashioned pre-election bribe that's been going on since the dawn of time.  It sounds like it's landed well with younger people.

The latter is pretty much symptomatic of what is being seen all over the EU.  Strong push factors from Ukraine, Africa and the Middle East are leading to more people wanting to migrate to Europe and most, if not all, European countries taking the NiMBY position.  A few of the quotes I saw though were particularly anti-Muslim and that's something that even our culture wars instigators haven't triggered (yet...).

Whilst PiS are ahead in the polls it's just about the narrowest it's been for 4/5 years.  Back in 2020 PiS had a near-20 point lead but that had narrowed to around 4 points in later 2022.  It stretched out to around 8 points and has narrowed again to around 5 points on the latest polls.

As Libertine's projection shows, PiS would likely need to form a coalition with two other parties to get a majority.  The Third Way (TD in the projection) are centre-right so would likely join PiS and  Confederation Liberty and Independence (Kon in the projection) are far-right so again would likely happily join a coalition.  That's not a very appealing looking government!  Hopefully The Left (Lewica) voters will vote tactically as it seems like the Polish electorate as a whole are currently more right leaning.

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Re: Elections in Europe
« Reply #1362 on: October 13, 2023, 11:17:32 am »
I've only read a little bit about it but two of the flagship policies PiS seem to be gaining popularity from are an almost doubling of child benefits and an anti-EU, anti-migration attack line of presenting Donald Tusk as an agent of Germany.

The former policy is just a good, old fashioned pre-election bribe that's been going on since the dawn of time.  It sounds like it's landed well with younger people.

The latter is pretty much symptomatic of what is being seen all over the EU.  Strong push factors from Ukraine, Africa and the Middle East are leading to more people wanting to migrate to Europe and most, if not all, European countries taking the NiMBY position.  A few of the quotes I saw though were particularly anti-Muslim and that's something that even our culture wars instigators haven't triggered (yet...).

Whilst PiS are ahead in the polls it's just about the narrowest it's been for 4/5 years.  Back in 2020 PiS had a near-20 point lead but that had narrowed to around 4 points in later 2022.  It stretched out to around 8 points and has narrowed again to around 5 points on the latest polls.

As Libertine's projection shows, PiS would likely need to form a coalition with two other parties to get a majority.  The Third Way (TD in the projection) are centre-right so would likely join PiS and  Confederation Liberty and Independence (Kon in the projection) are far-right so again would likely happily join a coalition.  That's not a very appealing looking government!  Hopefully The Left (Lewica) voters will vote tactically as it seems like the Polish electorate as a whole are currently more right leaning.

From the above thread doesn't it say the Third Way is more likely to join the coalition with the Civic Coalition and The Left?

Also apparently Kon is a difficult one because they are staunch libertarians who aren't exactly in line with PiS, but individual MP's may swing it, but for either PiS or Civic Coalition - either individuals in a "power grab" so to speak, or the liberals dealing with a different flavor of far right to push out another (again apparently the situation according to that Twitter thread)
« Last Edit: October 13, 2023, 11:23:05 am by Stockholm Syndrome »

Online thaddeus

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Re: Elections in Europe
« Reply #1363 on: October 13, 2023, 11:28:34 am »
From the above thread doesn't it say the Third Way is more likely to join the coalition with the Civic Coalition and The Left?
From the, admittedly limited, articles I've read Third Way are definitely currently aligning themselves more with Civic Coalition.  This seems to be more of a grassroots movement although belatedly, earlier this month, Tusk offered some warm words towards Third Way.

There seems to be an assumption though that Third Way will go into coalition with whoever invites them ala Lib Dems in 2010.  If PiS get the most seats then they'd have the first go at forming a government.

Offline Bioluminescence

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Re: Elections in Europe
« Reply #1364 on: October 13, 2023, 02:31:11 pm »
Hugely important election in Poland this weekend.

Far right nationalists vs a liberal coalition led by Donald Tusk. Usual box of nasty tricks being used by the populists to sway the vote.

One of the most recent polls:




This is a great thread outlining what's at stake and the possible outcomes:

https://twitter.com/Mij_Europe/status/1712718696647385207

Or for those now living under the blue skies....

https://bsky.app/profile/mijrahman.bsky.social/post/3kbmjsiwij327

It's encouraging to see the opposition do so well considering the level of state propaganda in the country. This is a good article by Anne Applebaum (archived) on the situation in Poland and the obstacle opposition parties face.

Spoiler
State capture is a clean, formal phrase that describes a messy, ugly process. A political party or clique typically consolidates control over a state’s institutions only after years of bad legislation, concentrated propaganda, and many different forms of corruption. In some cases, constitutions have to be broken. Occasionally violence is required. Whole swaths of the public have to be persuaded, bribed, or frightened into going along.

In Poland, this process has been under way for eight years. After the nationalist-conservative Law and Justice party, known as PiS, legitimately won a parliamentary election in 2015, it began with an assault on the highest courts. Then it set out to dominate everything else: the national and local civil administration, regulators of all kinds, even seemingly apolitical institutions such as the forestry service. Now Poland is just days away from another parliamentary election, on October 15—an election that feels as if it were taking place in a completely different country. Some of the candidates are the same as in 2015. But the rules are different, the rhetoric is different, and the stakes are different. Inflation, migration, and women’s rights are under discussion. But in truth, only one issue is really on the ballot: Do you want PiS to complete its capture of state institutions, or do you want those institutions to belong once again to the entire country?

Before I continue, here is a very emphatic declaration of personal interest. I am married to a Polish politician, Radek Sikorski, a former foreign minister who is a member of Civic Platform, the largest opposition party. He is not a candidate in this election, but he is a member of the European Parliament, and he is campaigning on behalf of others. If that bothers you, then stop reading here. But do remember that some stories are clearer from the inside. As soon as this article is published, both my husband and I could once again be the focus of orchestrated online attacks from PiS trolling operations, more slander on state-run and state-controlled media, and maybe even more antagonism from the state institutions that use the security services to harass political opponents, including us, by orchestrating bogus financial or criminal investigations. Those same institutions have put spyware on the phones of our colleagues and friends. As in the Communist era, people in Polish politics now sometimes go outside or leave their phone in a different room when they want to speak. That’s just the price, nowadays, of being in the democratic opposition.

In this sense, the Polish political system has already diverged from other democracies. In the United States, people who watch Fox News and follow Truth Social believe in a false version of reality, one in which the 2020 election was stolen. Now imagine what would happen if an American politician could promote that lie, not just on social media but with hundreds of millions of dollars of federal-government money—your money, in other words, that you paid in your taxes—in order to hold power indefinitely. In Poland, that once unimaginable scenario has become reality.

PiS’s most important tool is state media—a couple of dozen state-owned television channels, national and local, as well as radio stations and websites—that have no American equivalent. Although Poland does have one fully independent satellite news station—TVN24, owned by Warner Bros.—subscribing to it costs money. State television is free, and for millions of people it remains the only source of political information. PiS has added 2 billion zlotys to the annual state-media budget since 2015 (some $450 million, which goes a long way in Poland). For that money, the state can produce some of the most virulent, aggressive television propaganda anywhere in the democratic world.

State media work by targeting particular people, running repetitive, angry stories about them. The main news program repeatedly describes the Civic Platform leader Donald Tusk as dishonest, treasonous, and above all, German. Tusk, who was previously the president of the European Council, once addressed a meeting of Germany’s Christian Democratic Union online during the pandemic. His brief remarks to the political party ended with a generic expression, in German, of good wishes “for Germany and for Europe.” The sentence was cut to one phrase—für Deutschland—and has been repeated scores of times on Polish state television.

Although legally obligated to be politically neutral, state television also picks themes designed to help the ruling party, especially during campaigns. In the run-up to parliamentary elections in 2019, state television ran a documentary called Invasion, about the sinister “aims, methods, and money” of the LGBTQ community. During presidential elections in 2020, the taxpayer-funded broadcaster described the opposition candidate as “serving Jewish interests.”

State media also hide or downplay genuine scandals. PiS has been telling Poles for years now that they face an existential threat from migrants coming from the Middle East. Jaroslaw Kaczynski, the PiS party leader, once said that Syrians carry “parasites and protozoa,” words that had a clear echo in Poland, where in 1941, Nazi occupiers put up posters warning that Jews cause typhus. Alongside the parliamentary ballot, PiS has also organized a referendum of dubious legality. It consists of four tendentious questions, including this one: “Do you support the admission of thousands of illegal immigrants from the Middle East and Africa, in accordance with the forced-relocation mechanism imposed by the European bureaucracy?”

The wording is a lie: No European bureaucracy has imposed any forced-relocation mechanism. But the larger, more extraordinary lie is the implication that PiS actually cares about stopping migrants from “the Middle East and Africa.” In truth, this government has allowed tens of thousands of migrants from the Middle East, Africa, Central and South Asia to enter Poland, which now has more immigrants than at any other time in modern history. In Warsaw, I have randomly met Tajiks, Mongols, Uzbeks, and Pakistanis who are delivering packages, driving taxis, working on construction sites. Their presence has nothing to do with European bureaucracy. Instead, media reports estimate that as many as 250,000 non-European migrants have recently entered the country, many after purchasing visas from corrupt PiS officials or intermediaries.

The details of this swindle, recently leaked to Polish independent media, are astonishing. One foreign-ministry official described a booth set up outside a Polish consulate in Africa, where people lined up to hand over cash. Another scandal involved a group of Indians, described falsely as a Bollywood-film team, who purchased hard-to-get EU visas from a Polish consulate in India for up to 40,000 euros apiece, intending to use them to travel to Mexico. From there, they hoped to cross the U.S. border. If you want to know how a would-be migrant might get from Mumbai to the Rio Grande, this is one answer.
Several officials, including the deputy foreign minister, have been sacked for selling visas. German and EU officials want explanations, particularly because one former PiS minister has said he believes that the government was deliberately admitting migrants who it knew would head for Germany. The Germans have set up temporary controls on Poland’s western border. But the foreign-policy implications are less significant than the breathtaking hypocrisy of PiS officials: Even their racism turned out to be less powerful than their greed.

And what will the audience of state television learn about this story? Almost nothing. Even this week, many days after the scandal broke, the evening news is still telling them that Donald Tusk and Civic Platform want to bring more migrants to Poland, and still telling them that only PiS can protect Poland from this deluge.
But media directly owned by the state are only part of the story. State-owned and state-controlled companies are also major contributors to PiS propaganda. The Polish state gas and oil company, PKN Orlen, directly owns 20 out of 24 Polish regional daily newspapers as well as 120 weekly magazines (just as Gazprom, the Kremlin-controlled gas company, owns media properties in Russia), and uses them to attack the opposition and support the government. State companies lavishly fund foundations and other nongovernmental organizations that spread pro-government messaging. Utility companies have sent messages to voters directly on their monthly bills, praising government policies and attacking the European Union. Orlen appears to have artificially lowered gas prices in advance of the election (which the company denies).

Individually, the highly paid executives of these state enterprises, who are supposed to be working on behalf of the country, not the ruling party, are also helping fund the government’s campaign, including a massive, targeted online advertising campaign of unprecedented scale. Normally there would be limits on contributions, but because of the referendum, those limits have been removed. No opposition party can raise the money to compete, particularly because many Polish businessmen know that helping the opposition means they could lose licenses and contracts with state institutions—or even become targets of trumped-up tax or corruption investigations. Some will even donate to the ruling party, just to stay out of jail.

The tactics that Americans call gerrymandering and voter suppression play a big role in Poland too. District maps that were due to be redrawn years ago have not been changed, meaning that urban areas, which are more likely to vote for the opposition, will be underrepresented. Hundreds of thousands of Poles working abroad—also more likely to vote for the opposition—have to vote in person at a limited number of sites, which means many won’t be able to vote at all. By contrast, hundreds of additional polling stations have been added in rural Poland, so that people more likely to support PiS can vote more easily. New rules will also slow down the vote-counting process, while at the same time discounting any results not received in 24 hours. Overburdened polling stations in big cities, in Poland or abroad, may not make the cutoff.

The opposition can in theory still win, and indeed should win: Together, the three parties that would return Poland to a fully functioning democracy easily outpoll PiS. But the three-way division of the anti-authoritarian vote could yield fewer seats than a single opposition party would receive—a situation that will be made far worse if one of the parties fails to get enough votes to enter Parliament at all. The peculiarities of the voting system make the final outcome hard to predict. A few percentage points’ swing for or against one of the smaller parties could radically shift the final result.

This particular quirk of Polish politics helps explain another aspect of the election campaign that has surprised outsiders. There is a fifth party, Konfederacja, which models itself after the pro-Russian, anti-Ukrainian far-right parties that are gaining prominence elsewhere in Europe. One of its slogans is “No welfare payments for Ukrainians.” The language it uses was unacceptable in Polish politics just a few years ago, as was its anti-Semitism; now, thanks to state television, xenophobes sit happily in mainstream Polish politics, and PiS wants to win their votes. Also, thanks either to corruption or the incompetence of the PiS government, Ukrainian grain that was supposed to transit across Poland in recent months was allowed to fill Polish grain silos instead. Prices fell, angering the farmers whose votes PiS needs to win.

These two factors help explain Polish Prime Minister Mateusz Morawiecki’s now frequent public outbursts against Ukraine, as well as his declaration that Poland will cease sending weapons to the country—a statement that appears not even to be true. From the outside, this eruption of ill will might be hard to understand. Yet the damage it did was incalculable, destroying the genuine transatlantic unity that is absolutely necessary for Ukraine to win the war, and self-destructive as well: If the war is prolonged because the Kremlin thinks allied support for Ukraine is faltering, that’s very bad for Poland indeed.
But the ruling party’s political concerns override the national interest. Why? Because electoral loss would be a personal catastrophe for PiS members, their relatives, and their friends. Before 2015, Poland had an imperfect but mostly apolitical public service. Now Poland has replaced its apolitical civil servants with a system of patronage, comparable to the one that existed in 19th-century America. Whole areas of public life have been politicized, from the judiciary and the prosecutors to the national and local public administration, right down to the level of small towns and villages. Thousands of civil servants were fired for their perceived political affiliations, as were military leaders and diplomats. When my husband and some local political leaders were campaigning at a public event a few days ago, members of a local fire brigade told them that they were very sorry, but they could not be photographed with opposition politicians, because they might be fired too.

In that sense, Poland already resembles an autocracy. I say that even though a loud, energetic election campaign is unfolding across the country, and even though hundreds of thousands of people joined an opposition march on Sunday, possibly the largest demonstration in the history of Warsaw. But if the central feature of modern kleptocracy is a ruling party that has claimed control of state institutions, both to enrich itself and to remain in power, Poland already matches that description. Whatever social or economic reasons led people to vote for PiS back in 2015 are now of little significance, given how dramatically these captured state institutions have changed the country.

I’ve heard several people in recent weeks describe the Polish political system, like the Turkish and Hungarian systems, as “free but not fair.” This is a deep misunderstanding: Long before anyone starts counting votes, this election will already have been severely distorted. This campaign is neither free nor fair, and also offers a lesson to other democracies, including the U.S., about the high price they will pay if they elect autocratic leaders who openly seek to capture the state. Victory for the opposition in this election is the only chance Poland has to prevent this system from becoming permanent. That’s why PiS will sacrifice anything—Poland’s economy, Poland’s alliances, Poland’s physical safety—in order to win.
[close]



Offline Nobby Reserve

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Re: Elections in Europe
« Reply #1365 on: October 13, 2023, 03:28:30 pm »
It's encouraging to see the opposition do so well considering the level of state propaganda in the country. This is a good article by Anne Applebaum (archived) on the situation in Poland and the obstacle opposition parties face.

Spoiler
State capture is a clean, formal phrase that describes a messy, ugly process. A political party or clique typically consolidates control over a state’s institutions only after years of bad legislation, concentrated propaganda, and many different forms of corruption. In some cases, constitutions have to be broken. Occasionally violence is required. Whole swaths of the public have to be persuaded, bribed, or frightened into going along.

In Poland, this process has been under way for eight years. After the nationalist-conservative Law and Justice party, known as PiS, legitimately won a parliamentary election in 2015, it began with an assault on the highest courts. Then it set out to dominate everything else: the national and local civil administration, regulators of all kinds, even seemingly apolitical institutions such as the forestry service. Now Poland is just days away from another parliamentary election, on October 15—an election that feels as if it were taking place in a completely different country. Some of the candidates are the same as in 2015. But the rules are different, the rhetoric is different, and the stakes are different. Inflation, migration, and women’s rights are under discussion. But in truth, only one issue is really on the ballot: Do you want PiS to complete its capture of state institutions, or do you want those institutions to belong once again to the entire country?

Before I continue, here is a very emphatic declaration of personal interest. I am married to a Polish politician, Radek Sikorski, a former foreign minister who is a member of Civic Platform, the largest opposition party. He is not a candidate in this election, but he is a member of the European Parliament, and he is campaigning on behalf of others. If that bothers you, then stop reading here. But do remember that some stories are clearer from the inside. As soon as this article is published, both my husband and I could once again be the focus of orchestrated online attacks from PiS trolling operations, more slander on state-run and state-controlled media, and maybe even more antagonism from the state institutions that use the security services to harass political opponents, including us, by orchestrating bogus financial or criminal investigations. Those same institutions have put spyware on the phones of our colleagues and friends. As in the Communist era, people in Polish politics now sometimes go outside or leave their phone in a different room when they want to speak. That’s just the price, nowadays, of being in the democratic opposition.

In this sense, the Polish political system has already diverged from other democracies. In the United States, people who watch Fox News and follow Truth Social believe in a false version of reality, one in which the 2020 election was stolen. Now imagine what would happen if an American politician could promote that lie, not just on social media but with hundreds of millions of dollars of federal-government money—your money, in other words, that you paid in your taxes—in order to hold power indefinitely. In Poland, that once unimaginable scenario has become reality.

PiS’s most important tool is state media—a couple of dozen state-owned television channels, national and local, as well as radio stations and websites—that have no American equivalent. Although Poland does have one fully independent satellite news station—TVN24, owned by Warner Bros.—subscribing to it costs money. State television is free, and for millions of people it remains the only source of political information. PiS has added 2 billion zlotys to the annual state-media budget since 2015 (some $450 million, which goes a long way in Poland). For that money, the state can produce some of the most virulent, aggressive television propaganda anywhere in the democratic world.

State media work by targeting particular people, running repetitive, angry stories about them. The main news program repeatedly describes the Civic Platform leader Donald Tusk as dishonest, treasonous, and above all, German. Tusk, who was previously the president of the European Council, once addressed a meeting of Germany’s Christian Democratic Union online during the pandemic. His brief remarks to the political party ended with a generic expression, in German, of good wishes “for Germany and for Europe.” The sentence was cut to one phrase—für Deutschland—and has been repeated scores of times on Polish state television.

Although legally obligated to be politically neutral, state television also picks themes designed to help the ruling party, especially during campaigns. In the run-up to parliamentary elections in 2019, state television ran a documentary called Invasion, about the sinister “aims, methods, and money” of the LGBTQ community. During presidential elections in 2020, the taxpayer-funded broadcaster described the opposition candidate as “serving Jewish interests.”

State media also hide or downplay genuine scandals. PiS has been telling Poles for years now that they face an existential threat from migrants coming from the Middle East. Jaroslaw Kaczynski, the PiS party leader, once said that Syrians carry “parasites and protozoa,” words that had a clear echo in Poland, where in 1941, Nazi occupiers put up posters warning that Jews cause typhus. Alongside the parliamentary ballot, PiS has also organized a referendum of dubious legality. It consists of four tendentious questions, including this one: “Do you support the admission of thousands of illegal immigrants from the Middle East and Africa, in accordance with the forced-relocation mechanism imposed by the European bureaucracy?”

The wording is a lie: No European bureaucracy has imposed any forced-relocation mechanism. But the larger, more extraordinary lie is the implication that PiS actually cares about stopping migrants from “the Middle East and Africa.” In truth, this government has allowed tens of thousands of migrants from the Middle East, Africa, Central and South Asia to enter Poland, which now has more immigrants than at any other time in modern history. In Warsaw, I have randomly met Tajiks, Mongols, Uzbeks, and Pakistanis who are delivering packages, driving taxis, working on construction sites. Their presence has nothing to do with European bureaucracy. Instead, media reports estimate that as many as 250,000 non-European migrants have recently entered the country, many after purchasing visas from corrupt PiS officials or intermediaries.

The details of this swindle, recently leaked to Polish independent media, are astonishing. One foreign-ministry official described a booth set up outside a Polish consulate in Africa, where people lined up to hand over cash. Another scandal involved a group of Indians, described falsely as a Bollywood-film team, who purchased hard-to-get EU visas from a Polish consulate in India for up to 40,000 euros apiece, intending to use them to travel to Mexico. From there, they hoped to cross the U.S. border. If you want to know how a would-be migrant might get from Mumbai to the Rio Grande, this is one answer.
Several officials, including the deputy foreign minister, have been sacked for selling visas. German and EU officials want explanations, particularly because one former PiS minister has said he believes that the government was deliberately admitting migrants who it knew would head for Germany. The Germans have set up temporary controls on Poland’s western border. But the foreign-policy implications are less significant than the breathtaking hypocrisy of PiS officials: Even their racism turned out to be less powerful than their greed.

And what will the audience of state television learn about this story? Almost nothing. Even this week, many days after the scandal broke, the evening news is still telling them that Donald Tusk and Civic Platform want to bring more migrants to Poland, and still telling them that only PiS can protect Poland from this deluge.
But media directly owned by the state are only part of the story. State-owned and state-controlled companies are also major contributors to PiS propaganda. The Polish state gas and oil company, PKN Orlen, directly owns 20 out of 24 Polish regional daily newspapers as well as 120 weekly magazines (just as Gazprom, the Kremlin-controlled gas company, owns media properties in Russia), and uses them to attack the opposition and support the government. State companies lavishly fund foundations and other nongovernmental organizations that spread pro-government messaging. Utility companies have sent messages to voters directly on their monthly bills, praising government policies and attacking the European Union. Orlen appears to have artificially lowered gas prices in advance of the election (which the company denies).

Individually, the highly paid executives of these state enterprises, who are supposed to be working on behalf of the country, not the ruling party, are also helping fund the government’s campaign, including a massive, targeted online advertising campaign of unprecedented scale. Normally there would be limits on contributions, but because of the referendum, those limits have been removed. No opposition party can raise the money to compete, particularly because many Polish businessmen know that helping the opposition means they could lose licenses and contracts with state institutions—or even become targets of trumped-up tax or corruption investigations. Some will even donate to the ruling party, just to stay out of jail.

The tactics that Americans call gerrymandering and voter suppression play a big role in Poland too. District maps that were due to be redrawn years ago have not been changed, meaning that urban areas, which are more likely to vote for the opposition, will be underrepresented. Hundreds of thousands of Poles working abroad—also more likely to vote for the opposition—have to vote in person at a limited number of sites, which means many won’t be able to vote at all. By contrast, hundreds of additional polling stations have been added in rural Poland, so that people more likely to support PiS can vote more easily. New rules will also slow down the vote-counting process, while at the same time discounting any results not received in 24 hours. Overburdened polling stations in big cities, in Poland or abroad, may not make the cutoff.

The opposition can in theory still win, and indeed should win: Together, the three parties that would return Poland to a fully functioning democracy easily outpoll PiS. But the three-way division of the anti-authoritarian vote could yield fewer seats than a single opposition party would receive—a situation that will be made far worse if one of the parties fails to get enough votes to enter Parliament at all. The peculiarities of the voting system make the final outcome hard to predict. A few percentage points’ swing for or against one of the smaller parties could radically shift the final result.

This particular quirk of Polish politics helps explain another aspect of the election campaign that has surprised outsiders. There is a fifth party, Konfederacja, which models itself after the pro-Russian, anti-Ukrainian far-right parties that are gaining prominence elsewhere in Europe. One of its slogans is “No welfare payments for Ukrainians.” The language it uses was unacceptable in Polish politics just a few years ago, as was its anti-Semitism; now, thanks to state television, xenophobes sit happily in mainstream Polish politics, and PiS wants to win their votes. Also, thanks either to corruption or the incompetence of the PiS government, Ukrainian grain that was supposed to transit across Poland in recent months was allowed to fill Polish grain silos instead. Prices fell, angering the farmers whose votes PiS needs to win.

These two factors help explain Polish Prime Minister Mateusz Morawiecki’s now frequent public outbursts against Ukraine, as well as his declaration that Poland will cease sending weapons to the country—a statement that appears not even to be true. From the outside, this eruption of ill will might be hard to understand. Yet the damage it did was incalculable, destroying the genuine transatlantic unity that is absolutely necessary for Ukraine to win the war, and self-destructive as well: If the war is prolonged because the Kremlin thinks allied support for Ukraine is faltering, that’s very bad for Poland indeed.
But the ruling party’s political concerns override the national interest. Why? Because electoral loss would be a personal catastrophe for PiS members, their relatives, and their friends. Before 2015, Poland had an imperfect but mostly apolitical public service. Now Poland has replaced its apolitical civil servants with a system of patronage, comparable to the one that existed in 19th-century America. Whole areas of public life have been politicized, from the judiciary and the prosecutors to the national and local public administration, right down to the level of small towns and villages. Thousands of civil servants were fired for their perceived political affiliations, as were military leaders and diplomats. When my husband and some local political leaders were campaigning at a public event a few days ago, members of a local fire brigade told them that they were very sorry, but they could not be photographed with opposition politicians, because they might be fired too.

In that sense, Poland already resembles an autocracy. I say that even though a loud, energetic election campaign is unfolding across the country, and even though hundreds of thousands of people joined an opposition march on Sunday, possibly the largest demonstration in the history of Warsaw. But if the central feature of modern kleptocracy is a ruling party that has claimed control of state institutions, both to enrich itself and to remain in power, Poland already matches that description. Whatever social or economic reasons led people to vote for PiS back in 2015 are now of little significance, given how dramatically these captured state institutions have changed the country.

I’ve heard several people in recent weeks describe the Polish political system, like the Turkish and Hungarian systems, as “free but not fair.” This is a deep misunderstanding: Long before anyone starts counting votes, this election will already have been severely distorted. This campaign is neither free nor fair, and also offers a lesson to other democracies, including the U.S., about the high price they will pay if they elect autocratic leaders who openly seek to capture the state. Victory for the opposition in this election is the only chance Poland has to prevent this system from becoming permanent. That’s why PiS will sacrifice anything—Poland’s economy, Poland’s alliances, Poland’s physical safety—in order to win.
[close]


Thanks for this. It's scary how the right-wing-populists in mutiple countries have so easily been able to manipulate electorates.

Saying that, the centrists and 'nominal-leftists' in these scenarios offer little but a continuation of failed corporate-capitalist policies that perpetuate wealth inequality and lead people to look for alternatives.

All these countries have a section of the media owned by super-rich right-wingers wanting to promote economic policy that's even more right-wing and deregulated and low-tax, and they use their media outlets as misinformation propaganda organs to convince the electorates that their problems are caused by over-regulation, wokeists, immigrants, lefties.

'The left' need to be more inspiring and with policies that can inspire and make a genuine difference.

« Last Edit: October 13, 2023, 03:50:32 pm by Nobby Reserve »
A Tory, a worker and an immigrant are sat round a table. There's a plate of 10 biscuits in the middle. The Tory takes 9 then turns to the worker and says "that immigrant is trying to steal your biscuit"

Offline Nobby Reserve

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Re: Elections in Europe
« Reply #1366 on: October 13, 2023, 04:19:50 pm »
Looking at projected seats, it seems L&P (c170 seats) will easily form the next government, albeit in coalition.

Even if you combine the centrist Civil Coalition (c150 seats) and 'The Left' (c50 seats), they'll fall short of a majority.

Meanwhile, L&P have natural bedfellows in both the socially conservative*, economically centre-right 'Third Way' coalition (c50 seats), and the genuinely neo-fascist/far-right Confederation (c 35 seats)

And, remember, although the simple majority is 213 seats, unless a government has 276 seats, the president - right-wing, anti-immigration, anti-LGBT rights, anti-women's rights, anti-personal freedoms twat Andrzej Duda - can veto any proposed legislation.



* social conservatism is always shorthand for 'puritanical oppression of personal freedoms'

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Re: Elections in Europe
« Reply #1367 on: October 15, 2023, 06:29:23 pm »
Early exit polls have Tusk and his lot winning

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Re: Elections in Europe
« Reply #1368 on: October 15, 2023, 08:04:41 pm »
Oh hello...

https://twitter.com/JakubKrupa/status/1713631160352293247

@JakubKrupa
Exit poll, Poland:

OPPOSITION LIKELY TO FORM NEW GOVERNMENT

PiS 36,8% - 200 seats
PO 31,6% - 163
Trzecia Droga 13% - 55
Lewica 8,6% - 30
Konfederacja 6,2% - 12

(via TVN24, Ipsos)

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Re: Elections in Europe
« Reply #1369 on: October 15, 2023, 08:07:55 pm »
I’m got into Poland next week.  Please don’t let their be rioting in protest at whatever the result is!  I couldn’t cope.
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Re: Elections in Europe
« Reply #1370 on: October 15, 2023, 08:15:36 pm »
I’m got into Poland next week.  Please don’t let their be rioting in protest at whatever the result is!  I couldn’t cope.

Nah, PIS supporters are mostly old, rural types

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Re: Elections in Europe
« Reply #1371 on: October 16, 2023, 08:55:51 am »
The Express's take on the election - the day before and then on election day.

Never knowingly right about anything.



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Re: Elections in Europe
« Reply #1372 on: October 16, 2023, 11:22:02 am »
Are they saying Brexit-hater/anti-Brexit like it's a bad thing? Cause I got news for you, paper... it ain't working!

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Re: Elections in Europe
« Reply #1373 on: October 16, 2023, 12:06:45 pm »
The Express's take on the election - the day before and then on election day.

Never knowingly right about anything.




I feel dirty quoting the fail, but this headline will have been made through gritted teeth

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12634901/Poland-Law-Justice-EU-Donald-Tusk-election-victory-Brussels.html

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Re: Elections in Europe
« Reply #1374 on: October 17, 2023, 09:53:48 am »
Final results in - unlike in Slovakia, the exit poll was pretty much spot on.

A comfortable majority for the opposition coalition - 248 seats (needed 231).





Huge turnout of 74%. Apparently a greater proportion of 18-29 year olds voted than over 60s. Imagine if that happened in the UK.

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Re: Elections in Europe
« Reply #1375 on: October 17, 2023, 10:18:54 am »
Final results in - unlike in Slovakia, the exit poll was pretty much spot on.

A comfortable majority for the opposition coalition - 248 seats (needed 231).




Huge turnout of 74%. Apparently a greater proportion of 18-29 year olds voted than over 60s. Imagine if that happened in the UK.

Only comfortable if they actually negotiate and form a government. PiS are going to try and bribe the smaller parties first.

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Re: Elections in Europe
« Reply #1376 on: October 17, 2023, 10:23:41 am »
Then there's the problem of President Duda - a right-wing, anti-personal freedoms, anti-EU, anti-immigration L&P stooge - keeping his veto power over legislation, as the coalition doesn't have a super-majority (needed 276 seats to nullify the veto)

A Tory, a worker and an immigrant are sat round a table. There's a plate of 10 biscuits in the middle. The Tory takes 9 then turns to the worker and says "that immigrant is trying to steal your biscuit"

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Re: Elections in Europe
« Reply #1377 on: October 17, 2023, 10:29:41 am »
Then there's the problem of President Duda - a right-wing, anti-personal freedoms, anti-EU, anti-immigration L&P stooge - keeping his veto power over legislation, as the coalition doesn't have a super-majority (needed 276 seats to nullify the veto)

Yeah.

It's better than it was, but there are still many challenges.

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Re: Elections in Europe
« Reply #1378 on: October 17, 2023, 10:57:07 am »
At least their BS referendum questions didn't pass the 50% threshold

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Re: Elections in Europe
« Reply #1379 on: October 17, 2023, 11:16:29 am »
Then there's the problem of President Duda - a right-wing, anti-personal freedoms, anti-EU, anti-immigration L&P stooge - keeping his veto power over legislation, as the coalition doesn't have a super-majority (needed 276 seats to nullify the veto)


Not sure agressively thwarting the democratic will is the best option for PiS (has there ever been a more appropriately named party?). They had every advantage this election (press, those idiot referendums etc) and still barely managed one-third of the vote. If he continues to obstruct, then PiS will fall even further and a progressive candidate will easily win the presidency in 2025.

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Re: Elections in Europe
« Reply #1380 on: October 17, 2023, 03:37:43 pm »
Hungary have been pretty pro-Russia for a while now and have managed to cause a lot of harm in the EU, primarily due to PiS backing them every step of the way, thus preventing a majority. If PiS are really out of power that could be a big win for both the EU and Ukraine.

Edit: Looks like Slovakia might have a pro-Russian government now that'll likely replace Poland in backing Hungary.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2023, 03:52:18 pm by Schmidt »

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Re: Elections in Europe
« Reply #1381 on: November 21, 2023, 11:20:24 am »
Netherlands goes to the polls tomorrow - for your regular reminder of the utter madness of extreme PR.

It took 299 days to form the last government and could well top that this time.

A fairly depressing campaign that has seen xenophobia be the common thread for parties on the far-right, "centre" and far-left.

Hopefully some tactical voting will see Frans Timmermans (ex EU commissioner) come out on top for the red/green joint list and somehow form a centre-left government.



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Re: Elections in Europe
« Reply #1382 on: November 21, 2023, 11:37:43 am »
I see Far-Right Geert, and his obligatory ridiculous barnet, is still knocking about. Seem to be polling a bit too well, but I don't know how the parties break down along potential coalitions.
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Re: Elections in Europe
« Reply #1383 on: November 22, 2023, 08:08:19 pm »
Fucking hell.

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Re: Elections in Europe
« Reply #1384 on: November 22, 2023, 08:20:28 pm »
Oh dear oh dear
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Re: Elections in Europe
« Reply #1385 on: November 22, 2023, 08:24:09 pm »
Fucking hell.

Yup, and FDP polling second in Germany. Bloody FDP!
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Re: Elections in Europe
« Reply #1386 on: November 22, 2023, 08:36:16 pm »
In Germany, AfD pulling into clear second place (behind the German equivalent of the Tories) and set to become either the main opposition party or a governmental partner after the next German federal election. Not a one-off poll, but consistently over the last few months (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_next_German_federal_election)

As the last of the WW2 generation die out, so the lessons of Nazism fade...

Then again, mainstream parties have to take on some of the blame here. Like in the UK (plus most of Europe, the USA, Australia, NZ), both the mainstream right and [nominally] left parties follow the same broad economic consensus, which is centre-right (steadily weakening public services; pro-privatisation; fosters an ever expanding wealth/income gap; looks after the interests of big-business).

There's no real choice. It's either right-of-centre economics, or right-of-centre-economics-with-a-little-padding-to-slightly-ease-the-inevitable-pain-that-corporate-capitalism-always-bringes-to-the-majority

Voters begin to look to other issues to decide where to cast their votes, and the biggest party differences can be found over social/cultural/equality issues.

Sadly, there is an insularity-derived level of bigotry in most/all countries. And that's why the far-right parties who pander to that bigotry and intolerance are doing so well.

Worth quoting this again in light of the Dutch election results.
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Re: Elections in Europe
« Reply #1387 on: November 22, 2023, 08:52:36 pm »
Worth quoting this again in light of the Dutch election results.

It’s just excuses. It’s the twats who vote for these lot who are to blame, it’s that simple. You could argue a lot of that post applies in the UK as we’re under a FPTP system which only realistically supports a two party system but both Germany and Netherlands have PR and as were repeatedly told by proponents of PR every vote counts so there’s no reason not to vote for a smaller non-right wing party if you don’t support the economic policies of the larger economically right wing parties.
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Re: Elections in Europe
« Reply #1388 on: November 22, 2023, 08:57:13 pm »
It’s just excuses. It’s the twats who vote for these lot who are to blame, it’s that simple. You could argue a lot of that post applies in the UK as we’re under a FPTP system which only realistically supports a two party system but both Germany and Netherlands have PR and as were repeatedly told by proponents of PR every vote counts so there’s no reason not to vote for a smaller non-right wing party if you don’t support the economic policies of the larger economically right wing parties.

Indeed. There are 20 parties in NL, from all across the spectrum, and full pure PR - not even a minimum threshold to reach.

Even the "Socialist" party jumped on the anti-immigrant bandwagon though.

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Re: Elections in Europe
« Reply #1389 on: November 22, 2023, 09:00:40 pm »
When the rest ignore migration into Europe, then the far-right will exploit it.

Parties other than the far-right, need to start talking about immigration, it's pros and cons, and the reasons why people are making their way into Europe.  The reasons why their home countries may be shit and what we did to them in the past (if required), and how we can improve them, into the future.

This is what happens when you ignore the issue.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2023, 09:03:08 pm by Red-Soldier »

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Re: Elections in Europe
« Reply #1390 on: November 22, 2023, 09:20:27 pm »
When the rest ignore migration into Europe, then the far-right will exploit it.

Parties other than the far-right, need to start talking about immigration, it's pros and cons, and the reasons why people are making their way into Europe.  The reasons why their home countries may be shit and what we did to them in the past (if required), and how we can improve them, into the future.

This is what happens when you ignore the issue.

What happened is the Dutch have shown themselves for what they are, they believe the are superior to others and they hate sharing there 'culture' with other races.
I have lived here for years and its noticeable become a more and more colder place to immigrants and other races.
Its embarrassing and downright shameful that a country who has one of the most harrowing stories of hatred (in anna frank) held up as a lesson to us all in tolerance - which my you is is also one of there biggest tourist draws - could vote this way.
I'm pissed - they have the gaul to talk about how they where victims in WW2 while my family members where forced to fight for there freedom, and they vote this way.
What tops this off is Geert Wilders is part Indonesian - you cant make this shit up- that's why he dyes his bloody hair.
Sorry I'm rambling but I' so mad, I have to start to think about relocating to somewhere like Portugal before he gets this NEXT referendum as  I cant trust the dutch to vote to stay in EU

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Re: Elections in Europe
« Reply #1391 on: November 22, 2023, 09:35:40 pm »
What happened is the Dutch have shown themselves for what they are, they believe the are superior to others and they hate sharing there 'culture' with other races.
I have lived here for years and its noticeable become a more and more colder place to immigrants and other races.

It's been even broader than hostility to other races and non-European immigration. Banging on about all non-Dutch coming, driving up property prices (maybe, I don't know, build some houses?), taking university places etc.

Reminds me of Brexit in a way - a country destroying its own comparative advantage (in this case as an English-speaking hub for industry, tech, research and education in Europe) in the arrogant belief that this is a barrier to its success rather than one of the main reasons for it. And the result will be the same - a diminished, smaller and more irrelevant country.

The irony as well is that if there is any country in the world that could benefit from some "cultural immigration" it's the Netherlands.

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Re: Elections in Europe
« Reply #1392 on: November 22, 2023, 09:48:41 pm »
When the rest ignore migration into Europe, then the far-right will exploit it.

Parties other than the far-right, need to start talking about immigration, it's pros and cons, and the reasons why people are making their way into Europe.  The reasons why their home countries may be shit and what we did to them in the past (if required), and how we can improve them, into the future.

This is what happens when you ignore the issue.


Immigration is just the most obvious manifestation of frustration against so many things (this applies to many countries)

The BBC has a good article about the key political issues in the Netherlands. Top is housing. Average house price has ballooned to over £350k. There's a chronic shortage of social housing. There's a chronic shortage of student accommodation. Housebuilders are buying up any available land to make profit from.

Healthcare switched to an insurance-based (privatised) system in 2006. Premiums have [predictably] soared. People are rightly worried about being able to afford it.

And yes, immigration. When an already overcrowded country is then taking in another 220k of immigrants in a year, it's going to create frustration. Two-thirds of Dutch people want immigration to be cut.

There are other factors that I think are more culpable - most of all the drive to turn every possible function of government, from housing to healthcare, into cash-vows for wealthy owners of capital to milk for profit (they're certainly not alone on that, with even nominally left-of-centre parties across Europe supporting the same principle of opening everything for private profit-milking) - but it's senseless and it only exacerbates & entrenches strong feelings on the matter when others take a superscilious, 'holier-than-thou' attitude to condemn them as bigoted or racist, and pour scorn on their views.
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Re: Elections in Europe
« Reply #1393 on: November 22, 2023, 10:04:47 pm »

Immigration is just the most obvious manifestation of frustration against so many things (this applies to many countries)

The BBC has a good article about the key political issues in the Netherlands. Top is housing. Average house price has ballooned to over £350k. There's a chronic shortage of social housing. There's a chronic shortage of student accommodation. Housebuilders are buying up any available land to make profit from.

Healthcare switched to an insurance-based (privatised) system in 2006. Premiums have [predictably] soared. People are rightly worried about being able to afford it.

And yes, immigration. When an already overcrowded country is then taking in another 220k of immigrants in a year, it's going to create frustration. Two-thirds of Dutch people want immigration to be cut.

There are other factors that I think are more culpable - most of all the drive to turn every possible function of government, from housing to healthcare, into cash-vows for wealthy owners of capital to milk for profit (they're certainly not alone on that, with even nominally left-of-centre parties across Europe supporting the same principle of opening everything for private profit-milking) - but it's senseless and it only exacerbates & entrenches strong feelings on the matter when others take a superscilious, 'holier-than-thou' attitude to condemn them as bigoted or racist, and pour scorn on their views.

I'm sorry I have lived here since 2003 on and off and its definitely more racist - btw most of Islamic immigrants living here ave been here for over 2 generations including friends of my partners family - this is deep suited bias.
The only immigrants that are not shunned are Ukrainians - a small guess why that is
the dutch also have strong housing rules which means most social housing goes to long term dutch residents as its based on a wait list system with capped renting, coupled with a strong social security system means its rare to find homeless people in Netherlands, most people do not live below the poverty line - this is one of the reasons I thought it would be a good place to have a family here, the standard of living and safety.
The people with the worst standard of living are immigrants who are live in the poorest areas of Netherlands - you don't believe me - next time to you goto Amsterdam travel to the Biljmer area around the Ajax stadium, for a firsthand picture of what life is like for new immigrants in Netherlands.
If Healthcare is so important why vote for a leader whose biggest claim to fame is banning mosques, exiting the Eu and stopping all immigration - what is PVV's radical healthcare policy which will make up for those other policy's.
Sorry this is the country that brings you 'Zwart piet', Wendy van dijk's disgraceful comedy character Ushi Hirosaki and racist talk show host Johan Derksen who can repeatedly sprout nonsense on Tv and still not get sacked - in the era of Trump - the Dutch can be open about there feelings!
« Last Edit: November 22, 2023, 10:20:45 pm by Rouge »

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Re: Elections in Europe
« Reply #1394 on: November 22, 2023, 11:34:14 pm »
Europe is slowly falling to the right. Italy. Now the Netherlands. France will be next when Le Pen wins the next election. And with Trump probably back in the White House things look a bit bleak don't they.

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Re: Elections in Europe
« Reply #1395 on: November 23, 2023, 08:17:16 am »
Well done to the Dutch for outing themselves as a gang of c*nts.

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Re: Elections in Europe
« Reply #1396 on: November 23, 2023, 08:49:19 am »
The west have been taking in huge amounts of immigrants yet not providing the infrastructure to accommodate them at the pace needed. Immigration is an easy way to boost GDP. It’s happening all across Europe, Australia, New Zealand, Canada ect and all are starting to get pissed off.

You can’t be taking that many people in a year, when your healthcare, education, housing etc are all at breaking point. Not only that, but it’s cheap labour that is coming through as well. And in Europes case, millions of refugees with completely different values. No government has asked there people if that is what they want, it’s been forced upon the people.

This is simply the type of reaction we should be expecting more and more often from now on. And the left need an answer to it if they want any sort of power going forward.

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Re: Elections in Europe
« Reply #1397 on: November 23, 2023, 08:54:09 am »
The west have been taking in huge amounts of immigrants yet not providing the infrastructure to accommodate them at the pace needed. Immigration is an easy way to boost GDP. It’s happening all across Europe, Australia, New Zealand, Canada ect and all are starting to get pissed off.

You can’t be taking that many people in a year, when your healthcare, education, housing etc are all at breaking point. Not only that, but it’s cheap labour that is coming through as well. And in Europes case, millions of refugees with completely different values. No government has asked there people if that is what they want, it’s been forced upon the people.

This is simply the type of reaction we should be expecting more and more often from now on. And the left need an answer to it if they want any sort of power going forward.



Good excuse that for people voting for the Far right. Unfortunately for them, it doesnt wash and outs them as a racist c*nt.

Europe was almost destroyed by people voting for these types of parties. There is no excuse to vote for them.

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Re: Elections in Europe
« Reply #1398 on: November 23, 2023, 09:03:55 am »
Europe is slowly falling to the right. Italy. Now the Netherlands. France will be next when Le Pen wins the next election. And with Trump probably back in the White House things look a bit bleak don't they.

This is obviously another major blow. But it's not all doom and gloom. The Spanish reelected a left/centre-left/centre coalition even after everyone was saying a right/far-right coalition was practically nailed on. The Polish finally fucked off their bunch of right-wing authoriatians. Hopefully as of next year we'll have fucked off our own right/far-right (if anyone is still doubting the right-wing of the Tory Party are anything other than far-right nowadays?).

France and Germany still haven't fallen to the far right.....yet.

Trump getting reelected remains downright terrifying though.

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Re: Elections in Europe
« Reply #1399 on: November 23, 2023, 09:15:32 am »
Good excuse that for people voting for the Far right. Unfortunately for them, it doesnt wash and outs them as a racist c*nt.

Europe was almost destroyed by people voting for these types of parties. There is no excuse to vote for them.
calling people racist when people have genuine concerns over the state of housing, infrastructure, lack of health care etc yet the left and centrist and neo-con parties are still taking in hundreds of thousands of immigrant a year.

Western countries are bankrupt, they won’t be able to resolve these issues overnight and it’s complete madness to continue the levels of immigration we have seen over the last 20 years. It doesn’t past the pub test and people are voting for parties that will address one of these problems which people see as being one of the causes.

It’s not racist to be able to want to see a doctor, have a home, drive a car without congestion, want your kid to have a good education - the rate of immigration whilst countries are not keeping up with investment are making these simple things harder to have.

It’s a simple reactionary vote for not being heard by the established parties/parties that are willing to continue the absolute shambles that is happening;.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2023, 09:24:22 am by stevensr123 »
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