Topic: Jordan Henderson

[Fordy]

Im not going to get in to it with you. The hypocrisy you've shown with defending Adam and slagging Henderson is incredible.

How many times have I seen you defend Adam by saying "The midfield isn't the problem, we can't score".

Seems the party line changes when you want to slate Henderson.

Midfield isn't our problem.

I've also stated that Adam should be a squad player for us and overall has been poor this season.

The hypocrisy is those slagging off Adam but praising the woeful Henderson.

[Cpt_Reina]

Midfield isn't our problem.

I've also stated that Adam should be a squad player for us and overall has been poor this season.

So ergo Henderson isnt a problem?

As for the bolded part...



Have you fuck.

[payback]

The manager bought him for 17 or 20 million to be a first team player so he needs to be judged as a first team player. We happily allowed Meireles and Aquilani to leave so we were perfectly happy for him to be a regular in our team in midfield before the season started.

he wasn't necessarily bought as a first -team starter for this season though, and but for the injuries to lucas and gerrard he could've had an easier start to life here.

[AdamsLeftPeg]

I think he's looked a lot more impressive at CM than as a winger. However, didn't someone mention earlier about him playing as a winger when he was at Sunderland 

[Fordy]

So ergo Henderson isnt a problem?

As for the bolded part...



Have you fuck.

Mate I have. 

Henderson has been woeful for us.

However our main problem this season has been our forwards - we can't finish. If we could then we would be a top 4 team now.

It's a simple as that. 

[Saint Kopite]

Fordy,

What do you think is the primary role of a central midfielder?

[Carra23]

I think he's looked a lot more impressive at CM than as a winger. However, didn't someone mention earlier about him playing as a winger when he was at Sunderland 

He played a few times out wide but not as much as it's made out.
Mainly played CM and was one of Sunderland's most creative players and iirc, had a decent assist record.

[Hazell]

Ok read you post.

You say he would suit a more aggressive game but how can a shithouse(know you don't like that) suit a more aggressive game? 

Aggressive in terms of the football played, not in Lee Cattermole terms. That should be obvious.

Also you talk about potential - but for me you're basing that on age and not quality. As I say not ever player will be like Lucas.

I'm basing it on quality first and foremost and then on the understanding that players generally tend to improve as they get older. Some of the criticisms he's getting mirror that which Lucas had initially and IMO both share similar traits so whilst it shouldn't be a surprise, it still is given that we've not learned previous lessons.

I've seen Henderson in CM a number of times and he isn't good enough - just runs about. To be be fair to the lad he can play the killer ball from time to time but overall he isn't good enough and never will be.

Ok, there's no answer to that and I've said many times before that about sums up your mentality when it comes to football. Forget about the potential of a player or even considering what positives they have, in your mind, if they're not good enough, they never will be. I would have thought that your prior opinions on Lucas and Skrtel would have at least led to that but evidently not. And that's not even without mentioning your hypocrisy regarding Adam. I think it was a similar thing last week when you said you wouldn't make a pass to a teammate in a better position simply because you don't think they're good enough. Anyway, you're clearly not going to even consider the alternate point of view so all this to-ing and fro-ing is pointless when you're so steadfast in him being 'shit'.

[Hazell]

I've also stated that Adam should be a squad player for us and overall has been poor this season.

Adam has done ok for us this season

In terms of Adam - I thinkg he's an ok player and don't decent for us so far - Big deal

Unless you failed to watch today's game of cause and if you did then you will realise that they is no reason to drop Adam. None.

[Fordy]

Hazell

Adam has gone from being ok for us to poor

Henderson has gone from poor to woeful

But it's funny how you defend henderson but not Adam.

Oh I forgot its an age thing.

[lorenzo23]

Some of them have and have at least been balanced but:

And that's just from after 5.00pm yesterday.

Lol no comment then, but guess as football fan as well not just Liverpool you could see he was half decent before we was even remotely interested in lad.

[Mutton Geoff]

Actually Fordy i took a lot in here defending Adam because i dislike the name calling and personal abuse towards one of our players, thats just my hangup. But I cannot defend him on yesterdays performance, he needs to be benched for his own good, the guy looks like a rabbit in the headlights right now,  and Henderson needs to be were he is and Suarez on the right and either Stevie or Jonjo behind Carroll or Kuyt! Craig on the left

Sorted

[Mutton Geoff]

Hazell

Adam has gone from being ok for us to poor

Henderson has gone from poor to woeful

But it's funny how you defend henderson but not Adam.

Oh I forgot its an age thing.

given that Fordy why do you attack Henderson and not Adam?

Different Strokes etc is it.

[Hazell]

Hazell

Adam has gone from being ok for us to poor

In 2 or 3 weeks, he's gone from ok to poor overall this season? At least be consistent.

Henderson has gone from poor to woeful

But it's funny how you defend henderson but not Adam.

Oh I forgot its an age thing.

You didn't forget, you it it partially wrong. It is to do with their ages but you're writing off someone who has got the capacity to improve at 21 at a higher rate than a 26 year old. As for your opinion on Henderson, I think that's been covered and I'll just be repeating myself.

Oh and one more thing, on numerous occasions I've stated what I think Adam's strengths and weaknesses are and what the best way is of utilising him, despite my opinion of him not being as positive as yours. At least do me the courtesy of being accurate as opposed to misremembering or worse just being being intentionally wrong.

[AK47]

It's difficult to see how he can excel playing RM in such a poor team; there is little movement ahead for  him to cross and the ball is moved ponderously out wide so he's be double marked by the time he gets the ball.

He's 21, has good control, is mobile and his can play a good short 1 touch pass, he should develope into an asset as he gains experience

[lorenzo23]

I really dont know how people can't see the potential in him.

Look at the 1 touch passing, the awareness of space and where people are, the movement once he's moved the ball.

But then there arent any stats for that kind of stuff.

Well most Liverpool fan so use to some shit signing now, they can't look pass one or two games. A lot fans say you can't call for Kenny head as he come good give him time same could be said for Henderson? both shown they can come good both made mistakes.

[Hazell]

Lol no comment then, but guess as football fan as well not just Liverpool you could see he was half decent before we was even remotely interested in lad.

Henderson? I genuinely hadn't paid much attention to him at Sunderland and the first time I watched him properly was at the U21 Championships after we bought him. So I really didn't have preconceptions about him and have based my opinion about him purely on his performances for us (and the U21's though that's not much of a guide).

[lorenzo23]

Actually Fordy i took a lot in here defending Adam because i dislike the name calling and personal abuse towards one of our players, thats just my hangup. But I cannot defend him on yesterdays performance, he needs to be benched for his own good, the guy looks like a rabbit in the headlights right now,  and Henderson needs to be were he is and Suarez on the right and either Stevie or Jonjo behind Carroll or Kuyt! Craig on the left

Sorted

Don't agree a lot in Adam thread but this have agree on, although i play 4231 like Sangria suggested with Henderson and Spearing at base with Jonjo ahead of them Gerrard right Suarez left Andy or Kuyt or Craig at top

[Jetmir M.]

Hazell

Adam has gone from being ok for us to poor

Henderson has gone from poor to woeful

But it's funny how you defend henderson but not Adam.

Oh I forgot its an age thing.

Henderson is playing out on the right most of the time while Adam is playing in his favourite position. And yet by no means are Hendo's performances worse than Adam's.

Now imagine Charlie playing out on the left and Hendo in the center...

By the way Adam's performance yesterday was one of the worst individual performances of this season.

[Cadno]

Hazell

Adam has gone from being ok for us to poor

Henderson has gone from poor to woeful

But it's funny how you defend henderson but not Adam.

Oh I forgot its an age thing.

Its not an age thing its a class thing.  You can see the potential in Hendo to get much much better, we have sadly seen the best of Adam and even at his best his biggest supporters have said he is a squad player at best.

[lorenzo23]

Henderson? I genuinely hadn't paid much attention to him at Sunderland and the first time I watched him properly was at the U21 Championships after we bought him. So I really didn't have preconceptions about him and have based my opinion about him purely on his performances for us (and the U21's though that's not much of a guide).

I watched him a bit before we signed him when man you was after him! as one my closest friends support Man u and we generally speak and watch potential buys. Anyhow he was not special then but you could see that he had talent to at least be good enough to make it at one top 4 clubs.

He did go go down hill after the call up to england could be him believing his own hype not sure. At the under 21  i didn't think he did well at all to be honest, don't think many England players come out that tournament looking good. Not to mention he was played a DM most of it.

[liverpoolfan1]

Hendo is already better than Adam and has the potential to be much better.

The main problem with him is Kenny's insistence on playing him on the right.

[Cpt_Reina]

Hendo is already better than Adam and has the potential to be much better.

The main problem with him is Kenny's insistence on playing him on the right.

The problem is Henderson isn't as rigid as Adam. And so Adam gets his spot in the middle by default.

See also Lampard getting picked in the middle for Ingurland whilst Gerrard was shifted to the left.

[Saint Kopite]

Watching that video of Henderson's performance against Sunderland, It proves again why he should be starting at central midfield rather than out wide. His passing range maynot be as good as Adam but he moves the ball a hell lot quicker. And while his tackling maynot be that good, he can cover it up with his pressing and tracking back. Some of those first time passes were really good to watch.

[Lucas DuoFlush]

Don't see any reason for getting rid of Adam or Hendo.

Adam, for 6 million, is an absolute bargain for a squad player of his calibre. He's been over played this season, clearly has a lot of pressure on him and more than anything I think hes lacking any attacking confidence. We know he can hit those left-footed screamers in, even if hes not doing it right now. Also his set pieces are good, despite struggling this year. And yes I will agree that his form has been poor and his game needs to be adapted a lot to be more sensible but lets be honest, the lack of heart was the main thing missing against Sunderland, and that was from all players bar a very select few who were only mediocre anyway.

Henderson may seem like a bad buy currently. He hasn't given us what we wanted this season - that top 4 spot - and a big message that we were back for good. But I think its far too much to be placing at the feet of a player of his age who frankly shouldn't have played as many games as he has. I think he'll turn out very good - he's currently, at such a young age, good at pretty much everything he needs to be. He's not shit, or mediocre, or even very good, just good. I can see him developing very, very well. In addition, I think with his mentality, well-rounded play and young age Kenny can turn him into whatever he wants him to be - much like Rafa did with Lucas.

I still see a poacher and a winger as our main concerns. That and a serious mentality problem after watching the Sunderland game - hopefully Kenny is going to bollock them all.

[MassDriver]

He's a pass and move player. He keeps it simple so that the team keeps possession. Players like him are vital since they enable the flair players to take the risks and go for the impossible. His movement also creates the space for others to attack. He's good at linking the back to the front.

I'm amazed how often he passes it first or second touch. Passing it first time makes the pass so much harder to complete but he's very good at it. Using the ball quickly makes such a difference to an attack, whether sustained or on the counter. It's very difficult to create when each player takes four, five, six touches to do something with the ball. That's all the time the defense needs to stay organised. If you don't have players that can dribble through a defense and don't intend on a long ball approach, moving the ball around quickly is a great way to manipulate the defense and get them out of position. Slowing it down just gives them time to reorganise. I think his quick passing goes unnoticed because he's the only one doing it. He'll use the ball quickly and move but then whoever else gets the ball will often take his sweet time and it's all for nothing. He would be more eye catching if there was a midfield full of pass and move players like he is. As it is, his teammates often kill the tempo of the move.

He plays with the brain of a 30 year old whilst some his older teammates think like a 21 year old.

A common criticism is that he's invisible during games. I haven't looked at stats to confirm my "eye test" perception but I don't think he's receiving the ball drastically less than other players. What I've been wondering is that maybe because he uses the ball so quickly, people forget he's even been involved in the build up? Player A takes 5 touches before passing it to Henderson who passes it first time to player B. Player B then takes 5 touches before doing something with the ball. If you aren't concentrating, maybe you just remember players A and B since they were on the ball much longer? I don't know - just a theory.

Although he's not really a great tackler, I think he's vital to our defensive structures. He has a Kuyt-esque engine on him. The boy just fucking chases everything! Now pressing/containing is a whole topic on it's own - when to press, when to stay compact, defensive line height etc - but look how much work he does without the ball. So often you'll see a player sprinting off to press the ball carrier and it will be Henderson. Like I say, he's not strictly the best tackler but his mere presence plays an important role in stopping the opposition from creating a chance. He doesn't have to win the ball to have made a positive impact and thwarted the threat.

You obviously put in a lot of effort in typing out that post so I am not going to summarily dismiss it as a load of shite.

Whoever told you passing it first time is the right thing to do all the time?  It's all about timing of the ball release with respect to the opportunities available for a pass. Sometimes it is better to put your foot on the ball and slow it down instead of mindlessly 'getting rid' of the ball immediately as you get it.

One of the biggest myths which is being perpetuated on RAWK , that releasing the ball quickly EVERY TIME is a very good thing in a player. It is not. It is brainless and playing 'safe'.

Short passing and ball retention are important attributes for any player playing in a Liverpool shirt but when you have been brought in at an outlay of close to 20 million pounds(think of the opportunity cost of that 20 million) to primarily function as an attacking player and when all you can do is find a teammate with a 5-10 yard pass , sorry it is not good enough. Nowhere near.

Combine that with the fact that he has absolutely zero ability in terms of defensive play and tackling , rarely shoots or attempts an ambitious ball , has non set piece ability and you have a player who adds nothing to the team any half decent technically competent player couldn't have.

Basically(and I am not exaggerating here), there is no value addition to the team when he is playing and for a 21 year old with two full PL seasons under his belt with a mid table side is not sufficient.

[careful on these streets, I've heard stories]

I don't have an answer to your question to be honest.  He may retain the ball but he doesn't provide any thrust.  Adam provides thrust at least with his attempts to go forward.  Maybe that is the rationale behind it, I cannot be sure.  However I believe it is because he was bought for a different role.  One where he is an attacking player from the right cutting in and letting Johnson bomb on as Downing puts in cross after cross.  None of that has worked. 

As for the inconsistencies in his game they are to be expected I agree but I guess when there are so many inconsistencies they become the pattern if that makes any sense.  And to be honest, I did expect him to start a bulk of the games and Adam as well.  I thought Spearing would get the knock and given Gerrard's injury problems I always thought Adam and Henderson would both get a large amount of games.  Henderson was bought to replace Meireles IMO and that is what he is doing except nowhere near as well.

I agree with some of what you've said but if you look at last season when we were playing well with Lucas and Spearing in CM who provided the thrust? Neither of them play like Adam sometimes they play the ball sideways or forwards buy they play it quick and the play it smart so it was easier to build attacks. I do realize he was bought to replace Meireles and so far we can see he is quite ineffective when played on the right, maybe the demands of a RM at Sunderland are quite different from a RM at Liverpool.

However he has been impressive when played in the middle, why no build on that, why can't the management adapt?

There is also the argument that our problem lies in movement but I disagree if the tempo is high and players like Suarez and Kuyt start to interchange positions then the other forward players will join in

[royhendo]

Do you play football Massdriver? Serious question. If you don't know the value of a player who naturally moves the ball one touch, you maybe haven't played enough football. That's not a put down - the ball just moves quicker than any of the people on the park.

Some players will never learn how to do that cos they don't play with their head up for whatever reason. Sadly it seems Adam has that about him - I didn't realise he did. But with experience you can go the other way and learn when to slow things down or carry it to commit defenders.

[careful on these streets, I've heard stories]

Shelvey does need more games but instead of who? He isn't a CM jordan is better there , Jonjo is more like Gerrard than Alonso so were is he going To play in our formations?

I'd have Hendo in the middle and Shelvey on the right

[Rohit]

Do you play football Massdriver? Serious question. If you don't know the value of a player who naturally moves the ball one touch, you maybe haven't played enough football. That's not a put down - the ball just moves quicker than any of the people on the park.

Some players will never learn how to do that cos they don't play with their head up for whatever reason. Sadly it seems Adam has that about him - I didn't realise he did. But with experience you can go the other way and learn when to slow things down or carry it to commit defenders.

Think you have nailed it one roy. A midfielder that doesn't value possession isn't going to be a good player let alone one that plays without his head up. Central midfielders aren't meant to provide thrust or any of that other crap people have mentioned. A central midfielders job should be to give the other attacking players the platform to do what they do best. People will say we dominate the ball but we don't use it well, we develop no rhythm to our passing and thus look disjointed. Adams problem is he disrupts the rhythm to our passing by being sloppy with the ball and his needless switching of play when it isn't on. You can commit a whole defense with a 5 yard pass while a long pass will only isolate a single player and requires geniune quality out wide which we don't have.

Its no coincidence that our passing has lost all tempo and rhythm since our brazilian maestro has been taken from us with anterior cruciate ligament injury.

[Sangria]

Don't see any reason for getting rid of Adam or Hendo.

Adam, for 6 million, is an absolute bargain for a squad player of his calibre.

I disagree. Adam, 6-7m transfer fee, 60k salary. Shelvey, who I'd say is a similar calibre right now and will be better than him in the not distant future, cost 1-2m, probably 20k salary. A player we already had, of a similar type, of a similar standard, with greater scope for improvement, who cost 5m less straight up and 2m less in wages per year. Not only is Shelvey cheaper, Adam is also a replica of something we already had, so it's not even a question of comparison, but a question of why have the redundancy in the first place. And of course, to further highlight the redundancy, we already had another player of that type who'd unquestionably get picked ahead of either of them.

[Sangria]

Think you have nailed it one roy. A midfielder that doesn't value possession isn't going to be a good player let alone one that plays without his head up. Central midfielders aren't meant to provide thrust or any of that other crap people have mentioned. A central midfielders job should be to give the other attacking players the platform to do what they do best. People will say we dominate the ball but we don't use it well, we develop no rhythm to our passing and thus look disjointed. Adams problem is he disrupts the rhythm to our passing by being sloppy with the ball and his needless switching of play when it isn't on. You can commit a whole defense with a 5 yard pass while a long pass will only isolate a single player and requires geniune quality out wide which we don't have.

Its no coincidence that our passing has lost all tempo and rhythm since our brazilian maestro has been taken from us with anterior cruciate ligament injury.

I think it's safe to say the Lucas-Adam partnership wasn't a good CM partnership, but a case of Lucas + someone else who happened to be Adam.

[Renato]

I disagree. Adam, 6-7m transfer fee, 60k salary. Shelvey, who I'd say is a similar calibre right now and will be better than him in the not distant future, cost 1-2m, probably 20k salary. A player we already had, of a similar type, of a similar standard, with greater scope for improvement, who cost 5m less straight up and 2m less in wages per year. Not only is Shelvey cheaper, Adam is also a replica of something we already had, so it's not even a question of comparison, but a question of why have the redundancy in the first place. And of course, to further highlight the redundancy, we already had another player of that type who'd unquestionably get picked ahead of either of them.

Seriously doubt Adam is on 60k a week

[Believe]

I think it's safe to say the Lucas-Adam partnership wasn't a good CM partnership, but a case of Lucas + someone else who happened to be Adam.

Would love to see Lucas-Shelvey in action.

[Coolie High]

Think you have nailed it one roy. A midfielder that doesn't value possession isn't going to be a good player let alone one that plays without his head up. Central midfielders aren't meant to provide thrust or any of that other crap people have mentioned. A central midfielders job should be to give the other attacking players the platform to do what they do best. People will say we dominate the ball but we don't use it well, we develop no rhythm to our passing and thus look disjointed. Adams problem is he disrupts the rhythm to our passing by being sloppy with the ball and his needless switching of play when it isn't on. You can commit a whole defense with a 5 yard pass while a long pass will only isolate a single player and requires geniune quality out wide which we don't have.

Its no coincidence that our passing has lost all tempo and rhythm since our brazilian maestro has been taken from us with anterior cruciate ligament injury.

Its an excuse to take the blame of a nothing player which Henderson is, for all the comparisons to Modric, Xavi, Alonso, Wilshere etc, Henderson isn't half as talented as those players, he can't dribble, has no flair, his touch isn't great in tight spaces and his range of passing is not great either.

[Carlito Roberto]

Still think this lad has got the potential to be a decent player for us. He's got all the required attributes, just hasn't been able to put them all together yet.

Our midfield has been a huge problem this season, gone are the days when we sung about having the best midfield in the World. The brutal truth is we've gone from Mascherano and Alonso to Spearing and Adam. We're crying out for a playmaker and are massively missing Lucas.  A massive strength of last seasons team was midfielders arriving in the box, Maxi and Meireles were excellent at it. To our detriment that hasn't happened this season, Adam hasn't got the athleticism to get up and down and Henderson seems to go missing at times.

[Mutton Geoff]

I'd have Hendo in the middle and Shelvey on the right

ok no problem with that but where is stevie going on the right as well, otherwise getting crowded in the hole ( to coin a phrase)

[royhendo]

Its an excuse to take the blame of a nothing player which Henderson is, four all the comparisons to Modric, Xavi, Alonso, Wilshere etc, Henderson isn't half as talented as those players, he can't dribble, has no flair, his touch isn't great in tight spaces and his range of passing is not great either.

Excuses eh? Is that right? Of course, Alonso, Xavi, Modric, Wilshere - nobody's compared Henderson to any of them, but you knew that really. 

Christ, there's not one person on the planet who wouldn't want one of those players in their side.

It's at these times you remember you're maybe not talking about football with the kind of people you'd talk about football with down the boozer.

[Lucas DuoFlush]

I disagree. Adam, 6-7m transfer fee, 60k salary. Shelvey, who I'd say is a similar calibre right now and will be better than him in the not distant future, cost 1-2m, probably 20k salary. A player we already had, of a similar type, of a similar standard, with greater scope for improvement, who cost 5m less straight up and 2m less in wages per year. Not only is Shelvey cheaper, Adam is also a replica of something we already had, so it's not even a question of comparison, but a question of why have the redundancy in the first place. And of course, to further highlight the redundancy, we already had another player of that type who'd unquestionably get picked ahead of either of them.

No offence Sangria but I think you're wrong in the sense that I don't see them as like-for-like players. Adam is more of a deep lying playmaker, a bit of an enforcer and a set piece taker. Shelvey on the other hand is sort of on the other spectrum of Gerrardness. He's quick, has lots of agility, plays well in the hole, has a decent finish on him and has great off the ball movement. I'd like to see his inclusion, but I personally see him as a player i'd sub on for Henderson if we wanted some attacking edge. More wasteful in possession, but will get forward and try lots of things, either on the right or in the hole.

[Coolie High]

Excuses eh? Is that right? Of course, Alonso, Xavi, Modric, Wilshere - nobody's compared Henderson to any of them, but you knew that really. 

Christ, there's not one person on the planet who wouldn't want one of those players in their side.

It's at these times you remember you're maybe not talking about football with the kind of people you'd talk about football with down the boozer.

Its an excuse, he is a average player technically who has limitations as a player, so because he doesn't do anything out of the ordinary people automatically associate with them aforementioned players, because what he doesn't attempt long passes?