Author Topic: China - a Fascist State  (Read 75841 times)

Offline Yorkykopite

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Re: Re: China - a Fascist State
« Reply #240 on: March 11, 2021, 10:58:02 am »
How does it work with you? I don't need all the details (and you probably wouldn't give them anyway). But...

1. Do you get paid? 2. Do you get directed to sites like RAWK? 3. Do you know anything about LFC or are you advised just to fall back on google (or whatever the censored Chinese version is?) 4. Do yoiu have a family member held hostage by the Chinese state?
"If you want the world to love you don't discuss Middle Eastern politics" Saul Bellow.

Offline Nobby Reserve

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Re: Re: China - a Fascist State
« Reply #241 on: March 11, 2021, 11:02:40 am »

Well done China, don't take smack from anybody!


Is this a reference to the Opium Wars?
A Tory, a worker and an immigrant are sat round a table. There's a plate of 10 biscuits in the middle. The Tory takes 9 then turns to the worker and says "that immigrant is trying to steal your biscuit"

Offline newworldorderA

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Re: Re: China - a Fascist State
« Reply #242 on: March 11, 2021, 11:22:14 am »
How does it work with you? I don't need all the details (and you probably wouldn't give them anyway). But...

1. Do you get paid? 2. Do you get directed to sites like RAWK? 3. Do you know anything about LFC or are you advised just to fall back on google (or whatever the censored Chinese version is?) 4. Do yoiu have a family member held hostage by the Chinese state?

You're a true numpty. Like I said I'm from a country in the continent of Asia that has fought a war with China and still has border issues with them.  Though that doesn't narrow down the list by much  ;D

But I like the desperation to pigeon-hole me into what you think I should be. Someone has been reading too much New York Times and brought the American cool-aid hook line and sinker.

Serious question though, do you know anything about what you want to talk about? What is your opinion on Sun Yat-Sen being idolized in both Mainland China and the great Western hope of Taiwan?

What is your take on Taiwan too modernizing under the brutal rule of Chiang Kai-Shek?

EDIT : And yeah I started watching Liverpool during the Houllier years casually, '05 was a game-changer obviously. The Benitez years had flavor, the Hodson years were an eye-sore. Joe Cole's stepovers had me cracking up everytime. Dalglish years were hit and miss and then came Klopp but by that time I had kind of stopped watching since we had started building our local football infrastructure

EDIT2 : Also, the excessive hubris where you think the CCP actually cares about RAWK cracks me up more than David N'gog stepping in to fill Torres boots. The delusion truly is extraordinary.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2021, 11:45:35 am by newworldorderA »

Offline newworldorderA

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Re: Re: China - a Fascist State
« Reply #243 on: March 11, 2021, 11:26:21 am »

Is this a reference to the Opium Wars?

 :lmao. At least you didn't mention Nanking

Offline Yorkykopite

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Re: Re: China - a Fascist State
« Reply #244 on: March 11, 2021, 11:48:40 am »
You're a true numpty. ....etc etc

So you do it all for free?
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Offline newworldorderA

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Re: Re: China - a Fascist State
« Reply #245 on: March 11, 2021, 11:55:58 am »
Right, I'll take that as you really know nothing about what you're talking about. A career in American "journalism" awaits. I'm sure they'll even call you an "expert" on China Affairs.

Most of us in the Global South have moved on. We'll study China to understand how they have engineered this economic miracle, learn from them what is useful and figure out strategies to constrain them as well but we won't be lapdogs of the Americans like the Brits.

"When the Americans came, they didn't even know the name of the language we spoke but they had all the ideas which would supposedly deliver prosperity to our people, When the Chinese came they said don't do what we did, figure out your own solutions that are applicable to your problems. If this isn't the mark of a civilized nation then I don't know what is"

Offline Red-Soldier

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Re: Re: China - a Fascist State
« Reply #246 on: March 11, 2021, 12:02:49 pm »


The Uyghur Genocide: An Examination of China’s Breaches of the 1948 Genocide Convention

Quote
This report is the first independent expert application of the 1948 Genocide Convention to the ongoing treatment of the Uyghurs in China. It was undertaken by the Newlines Institute for Strategy and Policy, in cooperation with the Raoul Wallenberg Centre for Human Rights, in response to emerging accounts of serious and systematic atrocities in Xinjiang province, particularly directed against the Uyghurs, an ethnic minority, to ascertain whether the People’s Republic of China is in breach of the Genocide Convention under international law.


For this purpose, dozens of experts in international law, genocide studies, Chinese ethnic policies, and the region were invited to examine pro-bono all available evidence that could be collected and verified from public Chinese State communications, leaked Chinese State communications, eye-witness testimony, and open-source research methods such as public satellite-image analysis, analysis of information circulating on the Chinese internet, and any other available source.


The resulting report is a presentation of the facts that could be established together with careful analysis of whether China bears State responsibility for breaches of the Genocide Convention. We believe the conclusions are clear and convincing. We do not make any recommendations for action, but we do stand prepared to share our information and analysis with relevant institutions or actors interested in these findings.

https://newlinesinstitute.org/uyghurs/the-uyghur-genocide-an-examination-of-chinas-breaches-of-the-1948-genocide-convention/

This report concludes that the People’s Republic of China (China) bears Stateresponsibility for committing genocide against the Uyghurs in breach of the 1948Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide (GenocideConvention) based on an extensive review of the available evidence and application ofinternational law to the evidence of the facts on the ground.

2.The examination was conducted by recognized independent experts on internationallaw, genocide, China’s ethnic policies, and the Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region(XUAR).

High-level statements of intent and general plan.

In 2014, China’s Head of State,President Xi Jinping, launched the “People’s War on Terror” in XUAR, making the areaswhere Uyghurs constitute nearly 90 percent of the population the front line. High-levelofficials followed up with orders to “round up everyone who should be rounded up,”“wipe them out completely ... destroy them root and branch,” and “break their lineage,break their roots, break their connections, and break their origins.” Officials describedUyghurs with dehumanizing terms and repeatedly likened the mass internment ofUyghurs to “eradicating tumors.”
« Last Edit: March 11, 2021, 12:13:00 pm by Red-Soldier »

Offline Yorkykopite

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Re: Re: China - a Fascist State
« Reply #247 on: March 11, 2021, 12:08:23 pm »
The Chinese Fascists have just decided to implement an Iranian style 'democracy' in Hong Kong. All candidates for the HK legislature must pass a 'patriotic' test set by Beijing.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-56356046

Almost 24 years after China took back control of Hong Kong from Britain, this was the moment it remade the free-wheeling, sometimes unruly territory's political system in its own image. The symbolism couldn't have been starker. Seated in the Great Hall of the People, 2,895 delegates voted in favour of the changes, none against. Whether the one abstention was a miscue on the electronic voting buttons, or a lone act of defiance, we'll never know.

There have been other milestones in recent years at which observers have pronounced the death of Hong Kong. The national security law, for example, has all but wiped out the ability to express dissent on the streets.

Once again, China is arguing that this reform - with its political loyalty test for candidates - is necessary to ensure stability. But critics will argue it abolishes another fundamental underpinning of the city's special freedoms - the ability to channel dissent through the political process itself.

The pro-democracy protests, although sometimes violent, were accompanied by mass popular support with as many as two million taking peacefully to the streets. In late 2019, the democrats won a landslide in Hong Kong's local elections, the city's only truly democratic ballot. That may have spooked Beijing more than barricades and petrol bombs. But is its victory now complete? "It is very sad," the former Democratic Party chairwoman Emily Lau told me. "But I insist this doesn't mean the game is over for Hong Kong because the fight will go on."

"If you want the world to love you don't discuss Middle Eastern politics" Saul Bellow.

Offline newworldorderA

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Re: Re: China - a Fascist State
« Reply #248 on: March 11, 2021, 12:11:03 pm »
The Uyghur Genocide: An Examination of China’s Breaches of the 1948 Genocide Convention

https://newlinesinstitute.org/uyghurs/the-uyghur-genocide-an-examination-of-chinas-breaches-of-the-1948-genocide-convention/

Unlike the noble West which after a 100 years of industrialization and pollution still can't reduce their per capita emission levels (highest in the world) or pay reparations to the Global South but point fingers at China  ::)

This is hilarious. So the nations that bombed Muslim countries back to the stone age are now suddenly concerned about Muslim rights?

Let's look at what Muslim countries are actually saying shall we?

https://thediplomat.com/2020/10/2020-edition-which-countries-are-for-or-against-chinas-xinjiang-policies/

The source is also interesting. "Non-partisan" and "Experts" they say?

The Newlines Institute for Strategy and Policy (formerly the Center for Global Policy) is a nonpartisan think tank in Washington D.C., working to enhance U.S. foreign policy based on a deep understanding of the geopolitics of the different regions of the world and their value systems.


Managing editor literally works for the CIA

https://imgur.com/a/WSDrSFC

And what is with this bloke Adrian Zenz that Western media are so desperately pushing? Dude is seriously creepy.

Adrian Zenz is a Christian fundamentalist who says he's "led by God" to destroy the CPC. Furthermore, he's a Senior Fellow for the "Victims of Communism Foundation", which was created by the US-Congress to spread anti-communism and has been heavily criticized for extreme bias and horrible, intellectually bankrupt scholarship (such as counting dead Nazi soldiers as "victims" of Communism, and adding them to the supposed "body count" of communism).

How do you expect Democracy to work when people have lost the ability to read or critically think and are stuck in a feedback loop that appeals to their confirmation bias?

Offline Red-Soldier

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Re: Re: China - a Fascist State
« Reply #249 on: March 11, 2021, 12:15:38 pm »
How do you expect Democracy to work when people have lost the ability to read or critically think and are stuck in a feedback loop that appeals to their confirmation bias?

It seems you haven't read this part:

"For this purpose, dozens of experts in international law, genocide studies, Chinese ethnic policies, and the region were invited to examine pro-bono all available evidence that could be collected and verified from public Chinese State communications, leaked Chinese State communications, eye-witness testimony, and open-source research methods such as public satellite-image analysis, analysis of information circulating on the Chinese internet, and any other available source."

"The examination was conducted by recognized independent experts on internationallaw, genocide, China’s ethnic policies, and the Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region(XUAR)."
« Last Edit: March 11, 2021, 12:17:18 pm by Red-Soldier »

Offline ChaChaMooMoo

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Re: Re: China - a Fascist State
« Reply #250 on: March 11, 2021, 12:20:13 pm »
Curious mate, what is your opinion on the ulitimatum Mao gave the Tibetians to abolish feudalism and the Dalai's refusal?

Its not like they made the current Dalai Lama go into exile to India, created controversy around the next Panchen lama and in the meantime, nominate their very own Panchen lama to control a region rich in a plethora of minerals. But that's not what one would expect from a fascist state.

https://www.freetibet.org/resources

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/international/china-discovers-huge-mineral-resources-in-tibet/articleshow/1606444.cms


Offline newworldorderA

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Re: Re: China - a Fascist State
« Reply #251 on: March 11, 2021, 12:21:51 pm »
And maybe you didn't read the part where people who have been exposed as frauds are on this list of so called "experts" or that the institute has links to the CIA. We aren't that gullible, we've seem all of Americas tricks first hand.

Even if this is a genocide why is the Muslim world silent? The West will say they are silent because China is economically dominant over them and the failed accusation of "debt trap" yet these same nations don't miss a beat in boycotting French products. If the West wants to contain China at least be upfront about it rather than hiding behind the veil, drone striking innocent people in Afghanistan and then shreiking at China.

Here is a senator from a self-proclaimed Islamic nation on Xinjang :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m1QlQNmaNoE


https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2021/02/china-debt-trap-diplomacy/617953/

Even the Americans had to admit "Dept-trapt diplomacy" was hogwash
« Last Edit: March 11, 2021, 12:25:21 pm by newworldorderA »

Offline newworldorderA

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Re: Re: China - a Fascist State
« Reply #252 on: March 11, 2021, 12:24:00 pm »
Its not like they made the current Dalai Lama go into exile to India, created controversy around the next Panchen lama and in the meantime, nominate their very own Panchen lama to control a region rich in a plethora of minerals. But that's not what one would expect from a fascist state.

https://www.freetibet.org/resources

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/international/china-discovers-huge-mineral-resources-in-tibet/articleshow/1606444.cms

Mao's ultimatum to the Tibetians to abolish feudalism predated the Lama fleeing to India.

Offline Yorkykopite

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Re: Re: China - a Fascist State
« Reply #253 on: March 11, 2021, 12:32:40 pm »
Mao's ultimatum to the Tibetians to abolish feudalism predated the Lama fleeing to India.

From the fat little fella who killed millions of his own people.
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Re: Re: China - a Fascist State
« Reply #254 on: March 11, 2021, 12:36:44 pm »
Right, I'll take that as you really know nothing about what you're talking about. A career in American "journalism" awaits. I'm sure they'll even call you an "expert" on China Affairs.

Most of us in the Global South have moved on. We'll study China to understand how they have engineered this economic miracle, learn from them what is useful and figure out strategies to constrain them as well but we won't be lapdogs of the Americans like the Brits.

"When the Americans came, they didn't even know the name of the language we spoke but they had all the ideas which would supposedly deliver prosperity to our people, When the Chinese came they said don't do what we did, figure out your own solutions that are applicable to your problems. If this isn't the mark of a civilized nation then I don't know what is"

Relax a little.  I think this is your fourth or fifth avatar on here.  These things are borne out by results,  you don't have to get entangled into a long debate with anyone.  This is a UK centric forum,  naturally most of the talk about this will be book knowledge and second hand info from English sources from most posters. I take it you're from India, if true you're closer than many to the issue at hand,  that doesn't guarantee accuracy,  but you may be worth a read if you don't get banned.

Again,  management systems,  geopolitics are results based.  We can all judge what works,  what doesn't for ourselves. Recent events highlight the issues with US,  UK etc but it's not a one versus the other,  almost all nations are nowhere near good enough in terms of making the most of management to harness their potential and resources.

Don't get into debates,  have your say on any issue,  leave it there.  We / the reader can judge what works,  what doesn't.

Offline newworldorderA

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Re: Re: China - a Fascist State
« Reply #255 on: March 11, 2021, 12:55:35 pm »
From the fat little fella who killed millions of his own people.

Pretty sure it is still being debated in academic circles whether it was the "gang of four" or Mao in charge during the Cultural Revolution and Deng went on record stating that if they total the negatives and the positives Mao was still a net positive but don't let truth get in the way of your agenda.

Wasn't it Mao who put together the pieces of a broken nation back together and wasn't it for Mao's call that millions of peasants answered to inflict the astonishing defeat of the Americans in Korea? It was Mao who implemented land reform (something still holding back the majority of the Global South) and Mao who abolished serfdom in China. It was under Mao that life expectancy soared to the low 60's though perhaps the end of a century of war had to do with that and it was Mao who brought women's rights to the forefront in modern China.




Offline newworldorderA

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Re: Re: China - a Fascist State
« Reply #256 on: March 11, 2021, 12:58:07 pm »
naturally most of the talk about this will be book knowledge and second hand info from English sources from most posters.

I gathered that  ;D

[Redacted]

« Last Edit: March 11, 2021, 01:06:34 pm by newworldorderA »

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Re: Re: China - a Fascist State
« Reply #257 on: March 11, 2021, 01:03:01 pm »
Yeah calling people parrots will hasten the 6th avatar. 

Offline newworldorderA

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Re: Re: China - a Fascist State
« Reply #258 on: March 11, 2021, 01:05:46 pm »
 ;D ;D

I'm still chuckling at being called a "CCP troll" and being accused of being on the "payroll of the CCP". Hilarious, the mainstream media in America really has succeded in convincing the West that all dissenting opinion that deviates from the narrative is because of "paid russian bots" and god knows what else. Truly feels like a clown world

Offline Yorkykopite

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Re: Re: China - a Fascist State
« Reply #259 on: March 11, 2021, 01:08:37 pm »
"If you want the world to love you don't discuss Middle Eastern politics" Saul Bellow.

Offline newworldorderA

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Re: Re: China - a Fascist State
« Reply #260 on: March 11, 2021, 01:14:56 pm »
The number is disputed. That said the famine was a direct result of the cultural revolution something addressed above.

Here is Deng discussing the issue :

http://en.people.cn/dengxp/vol2/text/b1470.html

Specifically :

We must make a clear distinction between the nature of Chairman Mao's mistakes and the crimes of Lin Biao and the Gang of Four. For most of his life, Chairman Mao did very good things. Many times he saved the Party and the state from crises. Without him the Chinese people would, at the very least, have spent much more time groping in the dark. Chairman Mao's greatest contribution was that he applied the principles of Marxism-Leninism to the concrete practice of the Chinese revolution, pointing the way to victory. It should be said that before the sixties or the late fifties many of his ideas brought us victories, and the fundamental principles he advanced were quite correct. He creatively applied Marxism-Leninism to every aspect of the Chinese revolution, and he had creative views on philosophy, political science, military science, literature and art, and so on. Unfortunately, in the evening of his life, particularly during the ``Cultural Revolution'', he made mistakes -- and they were not minor ones -- which brought many misfortunes upon our Party, our state and our people. As you know, during the Yan'an days our Party summed up Chairman Mao's thinking in various fields as Mao Zedong Thought, and we made it our guiding ideology. We won great victories for the revolution precisely because we adhered to Mao Zedong Thought. Of course, Mao Zedong Thought was not created by Comrade Mao alone -- other revolutionaries of the older generation played a part in forming and developing it -- but primarily it embodies Comrade Mao's thinking. Nevertheless, victory made him less prudent, so that in his later years some unsound features and unsound ideas, chiefly ``Left'' ones, began to emerge. In quite a number of instances he went counter to his own ideas, counter to the fine and correct propositions he had previously put forward, and counter to the style of work he himself had advocated. At this time he increasingly lost touch with reality. He didn't maintain a good style of work. He did not consistently practise democratic centralism and the mass line, for instance, and he failed to institutionalize them during his lifetime. This was not the fault of Comrade Mao Zedong alone. Other revolutionaries of the older generation, including me, should also be held responsible. Some abnormalities appeared in the political life of our Party and state -- patriarchal ways or styles of work developed, and glorification of the individual was rife; political life in general wasn't too healthy. Eventually these things led to the ``Cultural Revolution'', which was a mistake.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2021, 01:18:06 pm by newworldorderA »

Offline Yorkykopite

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Re: Re: China - a Fascist State
« Reply #261 on: March 11, 2021, 01:36:30 pm »
The number is disputed. That said the famine was a direct result of the cultural revolution something addressed above.

"A direct result"? Ha ha.

You seem to know as much about Chinese history as you do Liverpool Football Club.

The Great Famine which killed 36 million Chinese was between 1958 and 1962. The Cultural Revolution which killed 10 to 20 million more started four years later (1966-76).

Mao was responsible for them both, as you may or may not know.

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Offline Yorkykopite

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Re: Re: China - a Fascist State
« Reply #262 on: March 11, 2021, 01:38:32 pm »
Eventually these things led to the ``Cultural Revolution'', which was a mistake.[/i]


Got to love this though!

A mistake is when you spell "mistake" misteak.

A mistake is not when you deliberately murder 20 million people.

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Offline newworldorderA

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Re: Re: China - a Fascist State
« Reply #263 on: March 11, 2021, 01:51:16 pm »
"A direct result"? Ha ha.



That was a brainfart. I meant to type "result of the Great Leap Forward" not the Cultural Revolution. In my defense it is late down under.

The range for the famine depending on who you ask is 1 million to 55 million. Quite interesting on how you are so certain of your figure but considering your lack of nuance, understanding of history and dogmatism maybe not so surprising


Offline newworldorderA

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Re: Re: China - a Fascist State
« Reply #264 on: March 11, 2021, 01:55:07 pm »
From the man's own mouth

Mistakes began to occur in the late fifties -- the Great Leap Forward, for instance. But that wasn't solely Chairman Mao's fault either. The people around him got carried away too. We acted in direct contravention of objective laws, attempting to boost the economy all at once. As our subjective wishes went against objective laws, losses were inevitable. Still, it is Chairman Mao who should be held primarily responsible for the Great Leap Forward. But it didn't take him long -- just a few months -- to recognize his mistake, and he did so before the rest of us and proposed corrections. And in 962, when because of some other factors those corrections had not been fully carried out, he made a self-criticism. But the lessons were not fully drawn, and as a result the ``Cultural Revolution'' erupted. So far as Chairman Mao's own hopes were concerned, he initiated the ``Cultural Revolution'' in order to avert the restoration of capitalism, but he had made an erroneous assessment of China's actual situation. In the first place, the targets of the revolution were wrongly defined, which led to the effort to ferret out ``capitalist roaders in power in the Party''. Blows were dealt at leading cadres at all levels who had made contributions to the revolution and had practical experience, including Comrade Liu Shaoqi. In the last couple of years before Chairman Mao's death he said that the ``Cultural Revolution'' had been wrong on two counts: one was ``overthrowing all'', and the other was waging a ``full-scale civil war''. These two counts alone show that the ``Cultural Revolution'' cannot be called correct. Chairman Mao's mistake was a political mistake, and not a small one. On the other hand, it was taken advantage of by the two counter-revolutionary cliques headed by Lin Biao and the Gang of Four, who schemed to usurp power. Therefore, we should draw a line between Chairman Mao's mistakes and the crimes of Lin Biao and the Gang of Four.

Offline Red-Soldier

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Re: Re: China - a Fascist State
« Reply #265 on: March 11, 2021, 02:11:48 pm »
There's a saying in the scientific world:

There are lies, damn lies, statistics, and Chinese statistics  :)

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Re: Re: China - a Fascist State
« Reply #266 on: March 11, 2021, 02:13:05 pm »
Google to your rescue again!

Anyway, whatever order you care to put them in, I think we're now all agreed. The Great Leap Forward (sic), the Great Famine, the Cultural Revolution. One catastrophe after another. Millions upon millions upon millions dead.

Hitler-Stalin-Mao - truly the 20th century was the century of butchery.
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Offline ChaChaMooMoo

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Re: Re: China - a Fascist State
« Reply #267 on: March 11, 2021, 02:13:51 pm »

https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2021/02/china-debt-trap-diplomacy/617953/

Even the Americans had to admit "Dept-trapt diplomacy" was hogwash

That article seems to be a load of bullshit.

1. China offers cheap investment for poorly thought out projects that other institutions or countries have rejected.
2. Added bonus for corrupt politicians to turn towards China instead of historic ties with India.
3. Poor business case, poor economic development and rampant corruption mean the country can’t service the Chinese loan.
4. China, therefore, gets long term control over the asset.

This is my understanding of a Debt trap. Be it in Sri Lanka or Chile or Mauritius or Philippines or Malaysia.

But that article takes one failed example and suggests that its a myth everywhere because its a myth in Sri Lankan investment. That's not how diplomacy works or how geopolitics work. It might've not worked in Sri Lanka but it doesn't mean its a myth.

https://qz.com/1223768/china-debt-trap-these-eight-countries-are-in-danger-of-debt-overloads-from-chinas-belt-and-road-plans/

https://eurasiantimes.com/another-poor-asian-country-becomes-the-victim-of-chinas-debt-trap-diplomacy-experts-wonder-who-is-next/

https://www.worldfinance.com/infrastructure-investment/caught-in-a-debt-trap

Offline newworldorderA

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Re: Re: China - a Fascist State
« Reply #268 on: March 11, 2021, 02:18:36 pm »


Hitler sure. Mao will go down in history as the man who laid the foundations for the re-emergence of China.


Offline newworldorderA

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Re: Re: China - a Fascist State
« Reply #269 on: March 11, 2021, 02:27:31 pm »
That article seems to be a load of bullshit.

1. China offers cheap investment for poorly thought out projects that other institutions or countries have rejected.
2. Added bonus for corrupt politicians to turn towards China instead of historic ties with India.
3. Poor business case, poor economic development and rampant corruption mean the country can’t service the Chinese loan.
4. China, therefore, gets long term control over the asset.

This is my understanding of a Debt trap. Be it in Sri Lanka or Chile or Mauritius or Philippines or Malaysia.

But that article takes one failed example and suggests that its a myth everywhere because its a myth in Sri Lankan investment. That's not how diplomacy works or how geopolitics work. It might've not worked in Sri Lanka but it doesn't mean its a myth.

https://qz.com/1223768/china-debt-trap-these-eight-countries-are-in-danger-of-debt-overloads-from-chinas-belt-and-road-plans/

https://eurasiantimes.com/another-poor-asian-country-becomes-the-victim-of-chinas-debt-trap-diplomacy-experts-wonder-who-is-next/

https://www.worldfinance.com/infrastructure-investment/caught-in-a-debt-trap

The American casino is now open sir and I need to head. Few points :

1) The article is from a known left-leaning mainstream American source. It shows despite the mainstream American push to paint the Chinese model as "Debt-traps"  even the Americans know how disingineous it is

2) Do you know what condition IMF and World Bank loans come with? What do you think is the distinction between the conditions they impose versus loans from the ADB? Do you think it is better if China seizes an infrastructural asset or the IMF demanding leverage over a countries central bank? Which one is truly a "trap"?

I should add the disclaimer that I am happy with the tag of Chinese loans being "Debt-traps" but then we should recognize that everything from the Western led IMF etc are also "Debt-traps" and China is merely following the path well trodden with their own flavor.

I also find it strange that the West is now spinning this as some sort of moral concern for the third world being 'enslaved' by China but won't utter one word when the monetary policy of the CFA countries is decided in Paris. Just LOL

Also here is a fun statistic :

The Chinese have built more roads and railway lines in Africa in the last ten years than the West built in the last 50.

« Last Edit: March 11, 2021, 02:31:09 pm by newworldorderA »

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Re: Re: China - a Fascist State
« Reply #270 on: March 11, 2021, 02:39:55 pm »
I am confused. What is your agenda here?

1. Are you saying that the Chinese are "not loan sharks" because when the west did it, it was not considered as one.

Or

2. Are you saying that the debt trap diplomacy is a myth?

Or

3. Why is it ok for the west to do it and not the Chinese. They are merely doing what the west has been doing.

I am confused as you bring in your points about the western nations. So what if the Chinese built more infrastructure in Africa than the west. That's because they get exclusive mining rights to the mines that are located within that nation. It was not done on a pro-bono basis. I hope you know that.

Defaulting on the Chinese loans means they seize your assets because that's the collateral. Thats the debt here.

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Re: Re: China - a Fascist State
« Reply #271 on: March 11, 2021, 03:03:40 pm »
Hitler sure. Mao will go down in history as the man who laid the foundations for the re-emergence of China.



56 million deaths on his hands ('Fifty-Six Million' as the old teleprinter used to have it). And you are happy with that.

This day and age it's quite an eye opener to have a Maoist apologist openly touting his wares.

We call Peterloo a "massacre" in this country. Rightly so. Eighteen people died for protesting against the government in 1819. We remember them and honour their struggle as a milestone on the road to working-class rights.

But 56 million dead under Mao. 'Who cares?' say the Fascists. He was 'building a country'. 
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Offline Sangria

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Re: Re: China - a Fascist State
« Reply #272 on: March 11, 2021, 03:08:43 pm »
The American casino is now open sir and I need to head. Few points :

1) The article is from a known left-leaning mainstream American source. It shows despite the mainstream American push to paint the Chinese model as "Debt-traps"  even the Americans know how disingineous it is

2) Do you know what condition IMF and World Bank loans come with? What do you think is the distinction between the conditions they impose versus loans from the ADB? Do you think it is better if China seizes an infrastructural asset or the IMF demanding leverage over a countries central bank? Which one is truly a "trap"?

I should add the disclaimer that I am happy with the tag of Chinese loans being "Debt-traps" but then we should recognize that everything from the Western led IMF etc are also "Debt-traps" and China is merely following the path well trodden with their own flavor.

I also find it strange that the West is now spinning this as some sort of moral concern for the third world being 'enslaved' by China but won't utter one word when the monetary policy of the CFA countries is decided in Paris. Just LOL

Also here is a fun statistic :

The Chinese have built more roads and railway lines in Africa in the last ten years than the West built in the last 50.

Of course the west have not built much in the way of roads and railways in Africa in the last 50 years. Africa, and other former colonies, wanted rid of the Europeans, and the Europeans obliged. The UK built up Hong Kong to become one of the great metropolises in history though, where they did remain for much of that 50 year period you cite.
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Offline Sangria

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Re: Re: China - a Fascist State
« Reply #273 on: March 11, 2021, 03:10:50 pm »
I am confused. What is your agenda here?

1. Are you saying that the Chinese are "not loan sharks" because when the west did it, it was not considered as one.

Or

2. Are you saying that the debt trap diplomacy is a myth?

Or

3. Why is it ok for the west to do it and not the Chinese. They are merely doing what the west has been doing.

I am confused as you bring in your points about the western nations. So what if the Chinese built more infrastructure in Africa than the west. That's because they get exclusive mining rights to the mines that are located within that nation. It was not done on a pro-bono basis. I hope you know that.

Defaulting on the Chinese loans means they seize your assets because that's the collateral. Thats the debt here.

Britain built a much bigger and better airport in Hong Kong before they left. And China complained that Britain was leaving China with a white elephant and had no right to embark on such huge projects so shortly before leaving.
"i just dont think (Lucas is) that type of player that Kenny wants"
Vidocq, 20 January 2011

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=267148.msg8032258#msg8032258

Offline newworldorderA

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Re: Re: China - a Fascist State
« Reply #274 on: March 11, 2021, 03:12:27 pm »
I would take that argument seriously if UK and USA weren't the nations that worship Churchill the man who killed 3 million Bengalis because of racial supremacist ideals. "Why isn't Gandhi dead yet?". But then I suppose dead is dead, what's it matter whether it is due to incompetence or something more nefarious
« Last Edit: March 11, 2021, 03:18:00 pm by newworldorderA »

Offline newworldorderA

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Re: Re: China - a Fascist State
« Reply #275 on: March 11, 2021, 03:21:37 pm »
Of course the west have not built much in the way of roads and railways in Africa in the last 50 years. Africa, and other former colonies, wanted rid of the Europeans, and the Europeans obliged. The UK built up Hong Kong to become one of the great metropolises in history though, where they did remain for much of that 50 year period you cite.

Patrice lumumba would like a word. So would Paul Kagame.Not like the mines in the Congo shut down just because Belgians had to be chased out from rooftops did it ?

And the British built HK when they realized the handover was going to happen, What were they doing with it for the 100 years prior they had it ?

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Re: Re: China - a Fascist State
« Reply #276 on: March 11, 2021, 03:27:34 pm »
I would take that argument seriously if UK and USA weren't the nations that worship Churchill the man who killed 3 million Bengalis because of racial supremacist ideals. "Why isn't Gandhi dead yet?". But then I suppose dead is dead, what's it matter whether it is due to incompetence or something more nefarious

A huge amount of British people do not worship Churchill at all - and we are free to not worship him without fear of being locked up.

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Re: Re: China - a Fascist State
« Reply #277 on: March 11, 2021, 04:15:32 pm »
Patrice lumumba would like a word. So would Paul Kagame.Not like the mines in the Congo shut down just because Belgians had to be chased out from rooftops did it ?

And the British built HK when they realized the handover was going to happen, What were they doing with it for the 100 years prior they had it ?

Why don't you visit the Hong Kong History Museum in Kowloon and educate yourself on the history of the place during that time period?
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http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=267148.msg8032258#msg8032258

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Re: Re: China - a Fascist State
« Reply #278 on: March 11, 2021, 04:40:01 pm »

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Re: Re: China - a Fascist State
« Reply #279 on: March 11, 2021, 04:54:36 pm »
A huge amount of British people do not worship Churchill at all - and we are free to not worship him without fear of being locked up.

This being the real point.

We are also allowed to criticise Britain's colonial past, just as our forefathers were allowed to organise against imperialism. And not only were we allowed to vote Churchill out of power, we can now praise him, mock him, admire his fortitude, berate his incompetence, express gratitude for his opposition to Nazism, express horror for his indifference to Indian death and poverty, say what a wonderful writer he was, remember that his writing is unreliable. All these things.

We have the tools to learn, no censors checking what we are saying, no orthodoxies to which we must cleave, no secret policemen forever looking over our shoulder. Moreover, we take it for granted. Forgetting some times that places like China are not like this.

You can't even say the words Tiananmen Square 1989 in China without asking for trouble from some copper or judge (the same thing in the 'People's Republic' of course).

"If you want the world to love you don't discuss Middle Eastern politics" Saul Bellow.