Topic: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!

[Fitzy.]

I imagine one reason is similar to why hardly anyone in or around the game are naming the elephant in the room (Abu Dhabi FC) for what they are and speaking openly and honestly about them.

To be fair, they’re facing 115 charges, got charged by UEFA, get ripped apart by some journalists with sportswashing state ownership regarded as being bad by many voices within the football community. The Guardian podcast has been brutal about Saudi at Newcastle.

That’s not what we’re seeing regarding the PGMOL and Liverpool. So far I’ve read or heard nothing from a dispassionate observer. Why?

[Historical Fool]

I imagine one reason is similar to why hardly anyone in or around the game are naming the elephant in the room (Abu Dhabi FC) for what they are and speaking openly and honestly about them.

Another reason might we'll be that it's because it's Liverpool (as in a single club) so there is apathy from everyone not invested in that one club. Basically, if it doesn't affect me (or my club) specifically, I don't really care anyway.

As far as a genuine conspiracy is concerned, I don't see it in those terms. I don't think there's been a gathering of nefarious people plotting to do Liverpool down. I do, however, belief there is corruption in football as a whole. We've seen a corrupt government conspire with Saudi to railroad a murderous ownership through at Newcastle. A blatant political decision in sport.

We all know how bent UEFA/FIFA are too. For me, the question is not whether there is corruption in the game. It's more about how far down does the corruption filter? Does it somehow influence certain decisions on the field of play or not? Personally, I have no idea. That is where real, solid evidence needs to be proven before I'll buy that one.

I do believe the standard of officiating is horrifically bad though. I do also believe that at least some officials are biased. Some maybe unconsciously, but some also probably consciously too. I believe the PGMOL are so unprofessional and arse-covering that bad practice is inevitable. Where there's no real accountability, chaos is pretty much guaranteed. It's a breeding ground for the abuse of power.

PGMOL is, in my opinion anyway, unfit for purpose. Too lax with it's membership and far too unprofessional to officiate in a multi-billion pound industry with incredibly high stakes. The way it operates, bad practice is simply inevitable, and we see it play out week after week. Season after season. Any bad apples within their ranks know full well that they'll be backed up however absurd their officiating is. In such circumstances it's human nature to take advantage now and again.

Given the absolute shambles fans see playing out before their eyes it's no wonder many eventually wonder if it's all totally bent. It seems rules are interpreted differently game by game. Fans are bewildered and confused. People feel genuinely gaslighted by the absurd explanations for absurd decisions. It's chaos, and highly costly chaos at that, yet they tell fans that everything is infact all just fine. It's the insult to the intelligence that sees exasperated fans thinking that there must be more to it than poor practice and genuine mistakes. I can understand why some would think it's more than that.

I think it’s a stretch to say it’s horrifically bad. Mistakes are magnified but they are simply human. Could it be better? Yes of course. Will they ever be perfect? That’s a pipe dream. But I don’t see this set of referees as being worse than any other in World Football (the so-called foreign ref fallacy), they’re in fact better trained and fitter than they ever have been, it’s just that advances in the game and advantages learned by players seeking to game the system has far outstripped their development and they struggle to keep up.

As Fitzy in his wisdom stated, they’re the most scrutinised set of professionals probably in any profession in the World. Does their pay match this scrutiny? Highly likely not, they’re being out earned by the lowest paid professional footballer they share that pitch with, yet subjected to infinitely more vitriol, death threats, and ridicule. Its no wonder that the cream of the crop aren’t flocking to be referees, it’s simply not worth it in most cases.

[WhereAngelsPlay]

As Fitzy in his wisdom stated, they’re the most scrutinised set of professionals probably in any profession in the World. Does their pay match this scrutiny? Highly likely not, they’re being out earned by the lowest paid professional footballer they share that pitch with, yet subjected to infinitely more vitriol, death threats, and ridicule. Its no wonder that the cream of the crop aren’t flocking to be referees, it’s simply not worth it in most cases.

 

[Son of Spion]

I think it’s a stretch to say it’s horrifically bad. Mistakes are magnified but they are simply human. Could it be better? Yes of course. Will they ever be perfect? That’s a pipe dream. But I don’t see this set of referees as being worse than any other in World Football (the so-called foreign ref fallacy), they’re in fact better trained and fitter than they ever have been, it’s just that advances in the game and advantages learned by players seeking to game the system has far outstripped their development and they struggle to keep up.

As Fitzy in his wisdom stated, they’re the most scrutinised set of professionals probably in any profession in the World. Does their pay match this scrutiny? Highly likely not, they’re being out earned by the lowest paid professional footballer they share that pitch with, yet subjected to infinitely more vitriol, death threats, and ridicule. Its no wonder that the cream of the crop aren’t flocking to be referees, it’s simply not worth it in most cases.

Personally speaking, I do think it's horrifically bad. My reasoning being that with the introduction of VAR, there is absolutely no reason whatsoever why they should be getting massive decisions wrong. They have everything they need at their disposal in order to consistently get it right. The fact they misuse it is on them too.

My other reason is how they bend over backwards to explain away absurd decisions and prove themselves right, even when they clearly got it wrong. That, for me, is unforgivable.

[Historical Fool]

Personally speaking, I do think it's horrifically bad. My reasoning being that with the introduction of VAR, there is absolutely no reason whatsoever why they should be getting massive decisions wrong. They have everything they need at their disposal in order to consistently get it right. The fact they misuse it is on them too.

My other reason is how they bend over backwards to explain away absurd decisions and prove themselves right, even when they clearly got it wrong. That, for me, is unforgivable.

Fair enough. Although I would be hesitant to attribute the bending over backwards to anyone other than practicing refs or the PGMOL, and exclude ‘pundits’, ‘former refs’, and ‘refs for hire’. 

[Son of Spion]

To be fair, they’re facing 115 charges, got charged by UEFA, get ripped apart by some journalists with sportswashing state ownership regarded as being bad by many voices within the football community. The Guardian podcast has been brutal about Saudi at Newcastle.

That’s not what we’re seeing regarding the PGMOL and Liverpool. So far I’ve read or heard nothing from a dispassionate observer. Why?

I think given the sheer scale of what's going on at the Etihad, the noise exposing it has been remarkably muted. There is noise from some notable exceptions though, so I take your point there. Still not exactly a hot topic given how their fraud is affecting every club in this league and every club in European competition with them.

I tried to address the PGMOL/Liverpool aspect in that post too when saying that because we feel it's specific to us, few others out there care enough to bother highlighting it. If it was just, say, Forest fans saying it, would we or anyone not invested in Forest give a monkeys? I doubt it.

[jillcwhomever]

I think given the sheer scale of what's going on at the Etihad, the noise exposing it has been remarkably muted. There is noise from some notable exceptions though, so I take your point there. Still not exactly a hot topic given how their fraud is affecting every club in this league and every club in European competition with them.

I tried to address the PGMOL/Liverpool aspect in that post too when saying that because we feel it's specific to us, few others out there care enough to bother highlighting it. If it was just, say, Forest fans saying it, would we or anyone not invested in Forest give a monkeys? I doubt it.

A number of journalists have been going on about it though. But what people keep forgetting is City are denying the charges and until it goes ahead and the case is proven you're not going to get a lot of people shouting it from the roof tops. The numbers of lawyers City have, people are going to be careful about saying anything too controversial before the case has been proven. If it's proven it will be a different matter.

[rob1966]

A number of journalists have been going on about it though. But what people keep forgetting is City are denying the charges and until it goes ahead and the case is proven you're not going to get a lot of people shouting it from the roof tops. The numbers of lawyers City have, people are going to be careful about saying anything too controversial before the case has been proven. If it's proven it will be a different matter.

Questions can be asked though, such as what the hell was going on here with their sponsor 8xbet?

[jillcwhomever]

Questions can be asked though, such as what the hell was going on here with their sponsor 8xbet?

Nick Harris does this stuff all the time, he mentioned this very thing a few months ago.

[rob1966]

Nick Harris does this stuff all the time, he mentioned this very thing a few months ago.

I've seen you mention Nick Harris a lot, but I couldn't tell you who he works for. The likes of Sky or TNT/BT Sport have never once mentioned this as far as I know?

[jillcwhomever]

I've seen you mention Nick Harris a lot, but I couldn't tell you who he works for. The likes of Sky or TNT/BT Sport have never once mentioned this as far as I know?

He is freelance now, I usually link his twitter, as you can find a lot of the stuff on there. https://twitter.com/sportingintel

[Eeyore]

They are doing this though. Between them, Oliver and Atwell ensured that our game v City finished 1-1. Mo may have missed the pen, but they give it and we likely win.

As Yorky would say though. If they really wanted to stop us winning the game then surely City would have won 5-1 with Oliver getting a hat trick.

[Eeyore]

To be fair, they’re facing 115 charges, got charged by UEFA, get ripped apart by some journalists with sportswashing state ownership regarded as being bad by many voices within the football community. The Guardian podcast has been brutal about Saudi at Newcastle.

That’s not what we’re seeing regarding the PGMOL and Liverpool. So far I’ve read or heard nothing from a dispassionate observer. Why?

The charges against City only came about after Der Spiegel published leaked emails from a hacking incident. That only happened because German law allows material that has been obtained illegally to be published. Given Bayern's position as a European powerhouse you can understand why City cheating was newsworthy.

Furthermore the left-leaning guardian has every incentive to highlight Saudi Arabia's ownership of Newcastle given it was Johnson a Tory PM who intervened on their behalf.

Somehow I can't see hackers going to the trouble of hacking the PGMOL servers hoping to show that Manc referees don't like Scousers.   

[alonsoisared]

Time to sharpen up the old IT skills then Al

[FlashGordon]

I went yesterday. First time in the new Annie Rd. Did catch the frustration with the ref…because he was frustrating and it’s the home fans’ role to influence the ref as much as possible. Like pretty much every game I’ve been to since I started going over 30 years ago.

The young guy next to me texted his friend - which I inadvertently caught sight of: ‘Agenda set by the PGMOL again’.

All it made me think was that the whole noise around football now is set to one of grievance and injustice. Rather than me checking myself to reconsider my view about deep collusion and corruption.

To amuse myself I read through GoT and ReCafe for their thoughts. Aside from some terrible shouts, both sets of fans have noisy contributors who are very earnest in their claims that Klopp dopes his players. They are utterly convinced and call out anybody who suggests that it is conspiracy nuthousery. Or maybe they’re correct by virtue of the fact that so many of them believe it? Intriguing.

That isn’t the gotcha moment you think it is unless they see our players getting blood transfusions on the sidelines because that the equivalent to what we have to watch from the refs every other week.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

As Yorky would say though. If they really wanted to stop us winning the game then surely City would have won 5-1 with Oliver getting a hat trick.

The only way it could have possibly been corruption is if Oliver scored a hattrick, they won 5-1, a man with desert atire strolled onto the pitch with a huge bag with a dollar sign on it and 100 dollar notes blowing all over the pitch and  poured it out, while the referee did a 'money angel' in front of the kop.



while his linos were given a fur coat, and a crown.



Artists rendition of a crown being given to the linesmen just after the full time whistle.




ONLY THEN would there be any suspicion of anything untowards going on.


Though obviously Yorkie would explain it all away glibly.




"oooohh!"

"oooohh!"

"oooohh!"

"oooohh!"

"oooohh!"

[FlashGordon]

Again, he was poor. He always is. But if he'd been corrupt he'd have killed us.

Put it this way, if I was refereeing a Man City match AND had the license from my employers to stitch Man City up there's not a chance in hell that they'd win the game. If I was then rewarded by my bosses with 8 more Man City games to referee I can guarantee they would not a win a single one of those matches.

But here's Tierney - the corrupt Tierney - being rewarded by his corrupt bosses and allowed to officiate in his 9th Liverpool game of the season. And...Liverpool have won all 9. I mean, how the hell has that happened? And why does he keep being given our games if he is so bad at corruption? It doesn't make sense.

Because we win the majority of the games we play because we’re really really good at football. Luckily this year we’ve been so good that not even that corrupt manc c*nt Tierney can stop us.

[DarkOfTheManatee]

The fact that some referees have already admitted in the past that they've let their decisions be influenced by a manager (e.g. Ferguson), club or desire not to undermine their colleagues means that it doesn't feel unreasonable to think that they can still be influenced and that it's not purely incompetence that explains every bad decision.

I don't think there's an agenda or an intentional approach. Tierney isn't being picked for our matches because he's committed to undermining us and his bosses approve of it. He isn't walking onto the pitch explicitly thinking about how he can stop us from getting a result (and so it's perfectly possible for him to referee us without causing us to drop points).

But when so many rules in football are subject to interpretation, having referees who are nudged even 10% towards a less generous interpretation by their unconscious biases, dislike of managers or desire not to create a media shitstorm can lead to some clubs being disproportionately affected.

They're also really not helping themselves by taking paid gigs with the owner of a club whose success they can directly influence - something that in analogous industries or situations is completely unacceptable. That's the type of corruption that for me feels most credibly possible: you're over in the UAE to ref the match, and as you shake hands with one of the bigwigs they mention that they "hope to have you back in the future" - just before you receive a fifth of your annual salary for a single day's work. A few days later, those words are a shadow in the back of your mind when you start the decision making process around a match for one of their two biggest rivals for the title.

Refs like England or Cook didn't get a fat brown envelope with instructions amidst the banknotes. But they exposed themselves to a situation that we've seen in other walks of life does influence decision-making. And still we wait for that decision-making to be influenced in our favour.

[Eeyore]

The only way it could have possibly been corruption is if Oliver scored a hattrick, they won 5-1, a man with desert atire strolled onto the pitch with a huge bag with a dollar sign on it and 100 dollar notes blowing all over the pitch and  poured it out, while the referee did a 'money angel' in front of the kop.



while his linos were given a fur coat, and a crown.



Artists rendition of a crown being given to the linesmen just after the full time whistle.




ONLY THEN would there be any suspicion of anything untowards going on.


Though obviously Yorkie would explain it all away glibly.




"oooohh!"

"oooohh!"

"oooohh!"

"oooohh!"

"oooohh!"

 

[GreatEx]

The fact that some referees have already admitted in the past that they've let their decisions be influenced by a manager (e.g. Ferguson), club or desire not to undermine their colleagues means that it doesn't feel unreasonable to think that they can still be influenced and that it's not purely incompetence that explains every bad decision.

I don't think there's an agenda or an intentional approach. Tierney isn't being picked for our matches because he's committed to undermining us and his bosses approve of it. He isn't walking onto the pitch explicitly thinking about how he can stop us from getting a result (and so it's perfectly possible for him to referee us without causing us to drop points).

But when so many rules in football are subject to interpretation, having referees who are nudged even 10% towards a less generous interpretation by their unconscious biases, dislike of managers or desire not to create a media shitstorm can lead to some clubs being disproportionately affected.

They're also really not helping themselves by taking paid gigs with the owner of a club whose success they can directly influence - something that in analogous industries or situations is completely unacceptable. That's the type of corruption that for me feels most credibly possible: you're over in the UAE to ref the match, and as you shake hands with one of the bigwigs they mention that they "hope to have you back in the future" - just before you receive a fifth of your annual salary for a single day's work. A few days later, those words are a shadow in the back of your mind when you start the decision making process around a match for one of their two biggest rivals for the title.

Refs like England or Cook didn't get a fat brown envelope with instructions amidst the banknotes. But they exposed themselves to a situation that we've seen in other walks of life does influence decision-making. And still we wait for that decision-making to be influenced in our favour.

Good post. But even if they were caught receiving said Brown envelopes, some on here would say it doesn't prove anything unless they have the ADFC crest tattooed on their erect cocks (which they use to score in the LFC goal)

[Eeyore]

Good post. But even if they were caught receiving said Brown envelopes, some on here would say it doesn't prove anything unless they have the ADFC crest tattooed on their erect cocks (which they use to score in the LFC goal)

Things like England having an absolute outlier against us days after a trip to the UAE. Oliver missing the Doku Kung Fu after being on the same trip. Webb and Clattenberg being former heads of the Saudi referees and Clattenberg claiming he had special access to referees days after this.

 

Is not a good look. They are also proof that the PGMOL does not have fit-for-purpose anti-corruption safeguards in place.

[Timbo's Goals]

That’s fine and everyone is absolutely entitled to their own opinion, I can fully understand how those three decisions give the impression that something is afoot, I certainly can’t prove that view is incorrect and nor would I try to.

What I would take exception with is the idea that people are just ignoring those three incidents because it doesn’t suit their argument, I know I personally have addressed all three of them and I’m sure I’m not alone in that.

I’m not going to dredge up everything I’ve said on it but as a brief summary-

Diaz - We have an audio clip of the referee clearly restarting the match under the instruction of the VAR. the confusion apparently being that the VAR was under the impression that restarting the game meant that the goal would stand, they only realised afterwards that it hadn’t by which point it was too late to do anything because, as per the rules of the game, they can’t stop the game to award the goal once it’s restarted. Of course it’s perfectly valid to be of the opinion that this was an intentional plot to deny the goal, it’s not one that I subscribe to as I just think it would be a crazy way to go about doing that leaving them open to substantial risk. What isn’t a valid opinion is to suggest that nobody has addressed it as it has been done to death.

Odegaard - I’ve said myself that that it’s inexplicable, it’s a clear penalty and I’ve no idea why the VAR doesn’t give it, it almost feels as though they’re trying to find a reason not to do so. It’s a penalty, it’s been subsequently admitted by Webb that it should have been given and I don’t know why it wasn’t. Again, if you hold the view that it’s an example of foul play then that’s perfectly valid and you’re entitled to do so, what I would say to that is that, as with most things in life, there’s several possible explanations for something which we can’t prove either way, the obvious devils advocate point being that they’re cowardly and want to avoid big decisions in huge games. You can’t prove anything either way; and nor are you obliged to for the purposes of discussion, but again it’s disingenuous to suggest that people are deliberately ignoring it because it’s been discussed ad infinitum.

Doku - Oliver himself probably can’t see it as he’s stood the opposite side of Doku’s body to where the contact happens, people have posted a misleading angle which suggests he can which is up there with people showing different angles of a ball near a goal line to give totally different perceptions as to whether the ball is over it or not, I don’t think he can see it. Oliver tells the VAR he can see that Doku got the ball (which he did) he can see that from his angle because you can see the direction the ball moves and the angle of the player nearest to it to have a good stab at who has connected with it; the VAR confirms that he is correct in that belief and then state there isn’t enough for a review. I 100% do not agree with that, if the threshold is ‘clear and obvious error’, well, there’s been a player kicking someone in the chest and the onfield ref hasn’t even mentioned it; at the very least Atwell should be saying ‘did you see the contact’ and Oliver would, you’d imagine, say no and that should prompt a review. Again; I’m not going to go into my views on what I think the rules should be as I’ve said it tonnes and it’s all in the thread.

What I would say with all of this (and this is in no way aimed at you as I’ve no idea whether it applies or not) but I do see it a lot; is people may find that they get less frustrated about this stuff if they check what the actual rules are regarding a specific incident after the match has finished before fuming on the internet. A key example being the Stones goal, 3 weeks after the event I’m still seeing people saying it’s the same as the one Van Dijk got disallowed vs Chelsea, and, watching it live, that was my first thought as well- it isn’t the same as the Van Dijk goal was disallowed because Endo was offside, you can’t be offside from a corner. I see this on virtually every major decision, people complaining that a VAR isn’t a clear and obvious error when the current implementation of the rules don’t require it to etc etc.

Also, to play devils advocate I would say that if you ask people at half time yesterday what their views are on that subject immediately after Coote has humbled his way through another 50 minutes compared to half an hour after the game that we eventually won you may get a different answer - I know you would if you asked me anyway.

Cheers mate. Appreciate the courtesy of you responding to my anguished sense of injustice to those three possibly season defining incidents. I take on board your comments that each one was discussed at great length at the time and that the Odegaard and Doku incidents render you perplexed. I would only take issue with how you perceive the VAR response to the Diaz goal.

For me it was clear procrastination and not incompetence and I think just in simple terms the fact that hundreds of offside VAR rulings before and since have not seen such a travesty repeated lends credence to my belief that in the case of Darren England it was a case of his not wanting to ensure the goal stood.

The upshot to it all is that following the Doku debacle we now have this trio of potential season defining decisions we alone are landed with. Such a collection of travesties of such magnitude and such collective potential negative impact is unprecedented in top level football. And all under the supposed watchful eye of VAR which was introduced specifically to prevent such travesties from happening. And yet bewilderingly it is VAR itself or its operation by those involved which has effectively manufactured these three travesties.

In each instance there has been not a modicum of doubt that the decision should have been ruled in Liverpool’s favour.

The Diaz goal was simply a goal. The Odegaard and Doku offences irrefutable. Yet each one has been ruled in favour of our opponents. It is truly staggering. And it beggars belief that, faced with the absolute clarity of what was needed to be relayed in the Diaz scenario and the clear culpability of Odegaard and Doku in the other two incidents, the VAR protagonists in each case could have failed to rule in our favour unless they simply did not want to. In which case it prompts the obvious question of why.

As I've said many times already whether this be down simply to inherent individual and/or collective bias or something more sinister none of us can know. What I am utterly convinced about, however, is that those in this thread who are prepared to attribute this unpredented trio of aberrations to mere error and incompetence have got it wrong. The officials concerned made a choice at the time not to favour Liverpool, despite in each case knowing full well that choice was wrong. They did not make a mistake.

[Redbonnie]

Again, he was poor. He always is. But if he'd been corrupt he'd have killed us.

Put it this way, if I was refereeing a Man City match AND had the license from my employers to stitch Man City up there's not a chance in hell that they'd win the game. If I was then rewarded by my bosses with 8 more Man City games to referee I can guarantee they would not a win a single one of those matches.

But here's Tierney - the corrupt Tierney - being rewarded by his corrupt bosses and allowed to officiate in his 9th Liverpool game of the season. And...Liverpool have won all 9. I mean, how the hell has that happened? And why does he keep being given our games if he is so bad at corruption? It doesn't make sense.

The  referees influence is limited, but it’s enough that we have lost around 4 points over the course of a season. We are winning despite the refs and should have a nice cushion in the league.

I will say it again you and Fitzy must live in a nice bubble and not know any dodgy people, because you just don’t get how skimming and scamming works. I can’t be a thief because why would I just take a tenner from the till every shift when I could rob the whole lot.

But I suspect you are deliberately misunderstanding and this thread is becoming a bit of a Wum.

[Timbo's Goals]

The  referees influence is limited, but it’s enough that we have lost around 4 points over the course of a season. We are winning despite the refs and should have a nice cushion in the league.

I will say it again you and Fitzy must live in a nice bubble and not know any dodgy people, because you just don’t get how skimming and scamming works. I can’t be a thief because why would I just take a tenner from the till every shift when I could rob the whole lot.

But I suspect you are deliberately misunderstanding and this thread is becoming a bit of a Wum.

The conversion of the pens we should have had against Arsenal and City would have given us 4 points but also taken a point apiece off them. The Diaz goal could have made no difference to the result of course but then again it could have yielded 1 point or 3 points.I feel sick every time I think about them. Fuck knows what Jurgen and the boys think. Thank fuck though they're clearly not mopers and have simply resolved to push on with such determination despite the carnage officialdom has inflicted upon them.

As for the WUM, I think most of us who are feeling the pain of these 3 aberrations must have felt that. I certainly have since entering the fray after the Doku incident and reading all the often glib and deciding denials that something stinks. Then again I've also wondered just how deeply these guys feel about the club. Maybe they don't feel the pain of these three injustices as deeply. After all, as my missus tells me each time I despair, it's only a game. People aren't dying.

Who knows what the likes of Yorky, Chopper and Alonso really think. Their glib dismissals of and ever ready deriding of some of the heartfelt and earnest posts of Andy and Eeyore don't make comfortable reading. Alonso's response to my post about my asking all the lads at the match how THEY felt about what's gone on was in fairness a fucking hoot and made me laugh out loud.

However, it was at the same time yet another easy and convenient way to deride and dismiss the way so many of their fellow Reds feel about what is going on - more than few of us very long time matchgoers who've witnessed first hand shocking decisions going right back to Inter Milan in '65.

But as I've said before - hey ho, it's a fucking message board and all told it counts for Jack shit.

[Yorkykopite]

I love the club as much as you do. I think I've loved it almost as long as you have. I feel the pain of dropped points the same as you. I would even add in another atrocious refereeing decision that deprived us of a likely three points ie Luke Shaw's inability to control the ball with his foot in the dying moments of our game at Anfield. He used his left hand instead. But I'm not crass enough to say that because you haven't mentioned this incident you don't like Liverpool as much as I do.

You say I - and others - have been glib in this thread. You clearly haven't read it, and I suspect the bits you have read have been read with one eye closed ("earnest posts!!). I've written about all three of these incidents in detail, and with clarity and patience. I've supplied reasons why I think we are suffering from incompetence not systematic bias against us. So have Fitzy, Alonso and many others. What we tend to get back - to coin a phrase - is glibness, sarcasm and accusations of loving PGMOL, being Tories (yes!), being WUMs, and now - from you of all people - being told we don't really care for Liverpool at all. Madness.

[tubby]

Their glib dismissals of and ever ready deriding of some of the heartfelt and earnest posts of Andy and Eeyore don't make comfortable reading.

But the glib dismissals and piss taking of those you disagree with is perfectly fine, I assume?

[cdav]

Paul Gorst
Anthony Taylor will take charge of Liverpool's trip to Manchester United on Sunday. VAR is John Brooks.

They are really taking the piss now aren't they?

[DelTrotter]

Brilliant, that's basically free reign for them to assault us at will without a yellow or red as he "doesn't want to ruin the spectacle".

Out of interest do Real Madrid get refs from Barcelona in big title games? Inter from Turin? Porto from Lisbon etc?

[Zlen]

Yes, they really are taking the piss and nobody can do anything about it.

[rob1966]

Paul Gorst
Anthony Taylor will take charge of Liverpool's trip to Manchester United on Sunday. VAR is John Brooks.

They are really taking the piss now aren't they?

Once again a Manchester Utd supporter (Altrincham my hairy fucking scouse arse) gets the Utd v Liverpool game

Yes, they really are taking the piss and nobody can do anything about it.

If its correct, Martin Atkinson, who hates us, appoints the referees

[harleydanger]

At some point you’d be a fool to believe incompetence over corruption

[spider-neil]

It's difficult to start counting points for decisions that have gone against us because;
a) we have missed penalties
No guarantee we convert the Man City penalty

b) goals change games
Had we scored against Spurs there is nothing to say they don't take more risks earlier in the game
When Arsenal play basketball in our area we score a minute later. If we have a penalty a minute earlier is the game going to change that much?

Regardless, it still would have been good to get those decisions.

[rob1966]

It's difficult to start counting points for decisions that have gone against us because;
a) we have missed penalties
No guarantee we convert the Man City penalty

b) goals change games
Had we scored against Spurs there is nothing to say they don't take more risks earlier in the game
When Arsenal play basketball in our area we score a minute player. If we have a penalty a minute earlier is the game going to change that much?

Regardless, it still would have been good to get those decisions.

Yeah no guarantee we'd have scored, but we had the opportunity removed from us. Arsenal, Odegaard should have been given a card, so that "should" change the way he then plays the rest of the game.

At Spurs, besides going 1 up, we also had 2 ridiculous red cards, those two players stay on the field and the game changes and we likely do win it.

[Peabee]

Taylor, a mancunian, is reffing the game at Old Trafford on Sunday. I'm sure it's just an accident they picked a manc from a United supporting family for the game instead of one of the many non Manc refs they have available.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

It started from the very first game - that handball with his raised hand was, again, obvious and, again, VAR and the Mancunian Referee didn't want to give it.

I believe that VAR described this as his hand being in a 'natural position'

[wah00ey]

Paul Gorst
Anthony Taylor will take charge of Liverpool's trip to Manchester United on Sunday. VAR is John Brooks.

They are really taking the piss now aren't they?

Good lord! Would be nice for them to be challenged by someone, ANYONE over this and provide the rationale behind the choice of referees for us this season.  There has to be some criteria PGMOL use for selection that is publishable.

[Peabee]

Good lord! Would be nice for them to be challenged by someone, ANYONE over this and provide the rationale behind the choice of referees for us this season.  There has to be some criteria PGMOL use for selection that is publishable.

Given managers and players get fined for saying anything about the refs or PGMOL, then I doubt it. They're basically untouchable and beyond criticism.

[GreatEx]

The referee selection in this league is incompetent beyond words

[Pistolero]

Abu Dhabi squeezing Webb's balls again after dropping points at the weekend.....

[Andy82lfc]

At some point you’d be a fool to believe incompetence over corruption

I would not agree, but I would agree if you replaced the word 'corruption' with 'bias'. The term corruption has been used on here so often to try and distract and ridicule the main argument, and it is still ongoing.

Many on either side of the debate are open to what is at play, I think, myself included, many are not anywhere near the thought of full on systemic corruption, but certainly open to the idea it does occur in some form, as in any setting in life, you would have to be from a different planet or mid brain transplant to not at least entertain the thought.

However to think that the idea, even with no evidence what-so-ever, that refs are infallible to any bias and it is all just incompetence, that they are so professional that nothing but mistakes are at play is on another level, the same level I would add in my view of people believing it is masterminded daily corruption, solely against us and from the top down.

People rightly get wound up though in my opinion when you have some posters that not only state no bias is at all possible, but then tell us all major decisions such as Diaz, Mcalister pen, etc are all correct or would 'even themselves out'. These are either not very bright, don't know the rules, or on a bit of a wind up, and for the most part I don't believe the former two points to be true.

This is what the debate has descended to though, as no matter what, as people joked above, some will never accept the idea any bias is at play, and instead distract with victimisation and dragging 'corruption' fully into play when it is clear to most bias, not just against Liverpool, will of course be rife amongst people who support such a tribal game.