Topic: Brexit: "Vultus inanis est et mori in fossa ego sum!"

[Ghost Town]

So much extremism in this place. It mirrors the state of the nation and shows why the country is fucked.

No-one is willing to give ground and accept that the other person might have a point, even if wrong on other points. No attempt at bridging divides, just angry, vicious snark over and over and over.

Egos determined to be right at the expense of understanding or even of being persuasive. The latter because they don't even want to persuade their interlocutors, they want the other to be contrary so they can keep sniping at them. While all around Romehome burns.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

So much extremism in this place. It mirrors the state of the nation and shows why the country is fucked.

No-one is willing to give ground and accept that the other person might have a point, even if wrong on other points. No attempt at bridging divides, just angry, vicious snark over and over and over.

Egos determined to be right at the expense of understanding or even of being persuasive. The latter because they don't even want to persuade their interlocutors, they want the other to
be contrary so they can keep sniping at them. While all around home burns.

I think you've got a point there mate

[Nobby Reserve]

This thread just shows how divisive Corbyn is though.

Since he's come into power, we've got a broad blob of Labour voting dweebs (I count myself as a proud dweeb among dweebs)

We all think things should be broadly the same; The NHS, a good social safety-net, good education prospects for all, good health service for all, good opportunities for the young and places for them to learn and play and strive and grow.

We all believe to differing degrees that we should all pay tax (I like paying tax because it's a privaledge and lets me give back to my country - it lets me support the social cohesion of my country and it lets all the things I think are important grow and it makes it a safe, happy, nice, fair place to live in.) - except when you give tax to the Tories, the robbing c*nts.

So we all broadly agree.

And yet stick Corbyn in the mix and everyone is at everyones throats.

Imagine if we had a leader that could get everyone proud and happy voting Labour again and imagine a day when that comes when we can all get back to slagging off Tories, laughing at the Lib Dems and sympathising with the Green Party and others that seem to genuinely want to do good.

I think he's a shit leader, and I believe he's fucked up a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity for a properly left-of-centre government to be in power and make the changes necessary to bring about a more equal society.

Instead of creating a broad church coalition of Labour MPs from the centre-left to left-left, he allowed initial attempts by the right of the party to destabilise him to turn into paranoia (historic precedents a-plenty!) and he's subsequently alienated so many outside his bubble.

His policy of 'deliberate ambiguity' on Brexit worked in 2017, but quickly became apparent is was a dog's breakfast of a policy. When Conference supported a strong pro-Remain stance, he misrepresented them and ignored the decision. Rather hypocritical given his past pontifications about an autocrative executive during the NuLabour years.


But Labour are the only party that come close to my socio-econo-political beliefs. So, Corbyn or not, they would get my vote. (caveat - if I were in a Tory-Lib Dem marginal, I'd be voting Lib Dem)

[Alan_X]

Firstly, any deal negotiated by Labour would need to be agreed in a Commons vote. With it being an almost impossibility for Labour to secure a majority (loss of the bloc-vote from Scotland), that is anything but a foregone conclusion

Secondly, Labour are committed to holding a 2nd Ref on any 'Lexit' deal they had negotiated. We'd get a chance to reject it (and the Brexit cultists would likely boycott the vote as a choice between two evils - although a Remain victory would, in their minds, given them justification to whine like babies again)

Thirdly, the terms of our leaving and future relationship with the EU would be by agreement binding on both countries. If Lexit ties us into a whole raft of EU legislation, then a new Tory government would need to renegotiate with the EU to obtain changes. Assuming Lexit would retain the open border in Ireland (and that's a safe assumption), then it would be hugely difficult for a future Tory Govt to obtain EU agreement to remove regulatory alignment, as it would cause the Ireland border to harden.

All well and good, but that all assumes the Tories will behave sensibly. In response I'd point out that the current government is planning to unilaterally walk away from a whole raft of bilateral agreements in a 'No Deal Brexit'.

[Nobby Reserve]

All well and good, but that all assumes the Tories will behave sensibly. In response I'd point out that the current government is planning to unilaterally walk away from a whole raft of bilateral agreements in a 'No Deal Brexit'.

Stopping that no-deal catastrophe needs to be a priority, but you're getting onto a different area of the debate from the 'Lexit' possibility should a Labour Government take control.

[Sangria]

So much extremism in this place. It mirrors the state of the nation and shows why the country is fucked.

No-one is willing to give ground and accept that the other person might have a point, even if wrong on other points. No attempt at bridging divides, just angry, vicious snark over and over and over.

Egos determined to be right at the expense of understanding or even of being persuasive. The latter because they don't even want to persuade their interlocutors, they want the other to be contrary so they can keep sniping at them. While all around Romehome burns.

Shut up. Anyone who says there is no compromise can GTFO. I'm not having that kind of negativity in here.

[Alan_X]

Stopping that no-deal catastrophe needs to be a priority, but you're getting onto a different area of the debate from the 'Lexit' possibility should a Labour Government take control.

I'm not, I'm saying that Lexit is irrelevant as we'll be outside the EU and the next Tory government won't be bound by 'Lexit'. It's a one way gate.

[Elmo!]

Quite the progress they are making.

[Dr. Beaker]

Not so much The Hulk, as The Invisible Man.

[Alan_X]

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/kyL6thXi15k?fs=1" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/kyL6thXi15k?fs=1</a>

[ShakaHislop]

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/kyL6thXi15k?fs=1" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/kyL6thXi15k?fs=1</a>

It's really worth seeking out his full press conference/speech. He, among other things, passionately criticises not just the Tories for calling the referendum, but pretty much the other MPs for not challenging the lies about the EU enough.

[Alan_X]

It's really worth seeking out his full press conference/speech. He, among other things, passionately criticises not just the Tories for calling the referendum, but pretty much the other MPs for not challenging the lies about the EU enough.

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/5Gb1Y1516Mc?fs=1" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/5Gb1Y1516Mc?fs=1</a>

[Nobby Reserve]

I'm not, I'm saying that Lexit is irrelevant as we'll be outside the EU and the next Tory government won't be bound by 'Lexit'. It's a one way gate.

They would be bound by the terms of the agreement a Corbyn Govt would have negotiated with the EU.

To change that would require an entirely new negotiation with the EU, which would raise a huge heap of problems.

[Dr. Beaker]

It's really worth seeking out his full press conference/speech. He, among other things, passionately criticises not just the Tories for calling the referendum, but pretty much the other MPs for not challenging the lies about the EU enough.

He's widely held to be one of the most likeable politicians, but fuck me he was pretty damning there - totally dismantling everything from Cameron right through to the oaf.

[CraigDS]

Is Johnson angling for the EU to not give them an extension?

[Andy @ Allerton!]

Is Johnson angling for the EU to not give them an extension?

Clearly

[Alan_X]

They would be bound by the terms of the agreement a Corbyn Govt would have negotiated with the EU.

To change that would require an entirely new negotiation with the EU, which would raise a huge heap of problems.

I don't agree with that reading - a future Tory government could unilaterally walk away from a Corbyn deal in the same way they're planning to walk away from the current arrangements for transition.

And if you're right, that would mean a Tory Brexit would bind any future Labour government into a deregulated American vassal state, chlorinated chicken and all.

[TepidT2O]

Luxembourg PM's press conference - Snap verdict

That was extraordinary. Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson, the British prime minister, has just been humiliated by the leader of the tiniest country in the European Union.

We were expecting a joint, open-air press conference but, with a large crowd of anti-Brexit campaigners threatening to drown out Johnson, it was announced that the British PM was not going to take part (presumably because of the demonstration, although that has not officially been confirmed yet). Normally in these circumstances the polite thing to do is to re-arrange. But instead Xavier Bettel, the prime minister of Luxembourg, just went ahead anyway, effectively “empty chairing” his guest. At one point he even gestured at the space where Johnson was supposed to be.

And then Xavier just let rip. People often wonder what EU leaders say or think about Johnson in private. Well, now we know. The leave campaign was a pack of lies, Johnson’s talk of progress in the Brexit talk is unfounded, the UK still has not come up with any ideas about an alternative to the backstop. On and on he went, with particular emphasis on the point that the UK, not the EU, was to blame for the crisis. It was a “nightmare” for EU citizens, said Bettel. At several points he was loudly applauded by the protesters, because they felt he was articulating their anger.

Yesterday Johnson depicted himself as the Incredible Hulk. As the Telegraph’s Michael Deacon suggests, the reality could not be more different.

The trouble is, from a PR perspective, the PM of Luxembourg laying into him plays in to the ‘oh look at those inferior foreigners telling us what to do again’ meme.

It didn’t help.  Although I totally understand and agree with what the guy said

[alonsoisared]

Imagine if we had a leader that could get everyone proud and happy voting Labour again and imagine a day when that comes when we can all get back to slagging off Tories, laughing at the Lib Dems and sympathising with the Green Party and others that seem to genuinely want to do good.

I'm not sure there's anyone out there who would do that at the moment, to be honest. It also can't be denied that Corbyn actually did pretty bloody well in 2017 when all here expected the end of the Labour party, culminating in their highest vote share since 2001. That was promptly written off as purely remainers trying to put a stop to Brexit, despite the lead up being primarily about other matters and that the same people who claim that also claim that Corbyn is a massive Brexiteer.

The UK is a conservative country and it always has been. If it always will be is down to the youth who still pretty overwhelmingly rate Corbyn and have been brought into politics by him. It's always going to be difficult for Labour, Milliband was fine and no doubt his kind of character would be popular with the people who are so against "Corbynites" but it didn't stop him getting shit from all angles including the way he ate a bacon sandwich and who his dad was. Labour had been desperately shit since Blair but something happened in the last election that should give people some cause for optimism and maybe question whether their definitive views on what the entire British public is thinking are always correct.

I can recognise that Corbyn isn't the best possible leader and i'm by no means some sort of weird cultist as I no doubt will get accused of being. But I just don't understand the way this thread has gone. Lib Dems allowing right wing dickheads into their party? Absolutely fine. Tories finally grow some sense of shame after the way they have fucked our country up and put us in this perilous position? Good on them, let them hold their heads up high. Labour offer the second referendum everyone has been asking for since the results of the first one were counted? How the f*cks that gunna work? What will they put on the ballot paper? He'll campaign for Lexit (we don't know that, by the way). He's not clear on what he wants to happen next (except the pledge he has literally made).

People ask for nuance from Corbynite cultists but they offer no nuance in return. If we all want the same thing then the sensible thing is surely to see Labour and the Lib Dems working together on this, along with the likes of the SNP, the Greens and Plaid. Not just on the Brexit issue but on the things that matter so much. We weren't far off being able to form a government last time out and after the absolute fucking mess May, Boris and Cummings have made over the last year or two we'd surely manage it in a month or so's time. But instead the Lib Dems are refusing to do business with Labour, are welcoming the right wing who started this mess into their party in political games that won't work. But somehow they've become in vogue again.

On a side note I also wonder why so many people on here even care about what happens to the people of this country seeing as they've written half of them off as a bunch of fucking idiots who they can't stand.

[bigbonedrawky]

You make it sound like 51.8% of the population aren't idiots and believe the shit people like Frottage, Johnson and Gove say. However seeing as you seem to know by dismissing my quote maybe you could tell us how we're better off outside the EU?

51.8 % was the UK average but in some areas it's quite a bit higher, take Wales for example...   

[Alan_X]

The trouble is, from a PR perspective, the PM of Luxembourg laying into him plays in to the ‘oh look at those inferior foreigners telling us what to do again’ meme.

It didn’t help.  Although I totally understand and agree with what the guy said

The kind of people who see that as a PR win for Johnson are lost to reason anyway. The Brexit shithouses would spin it the same way whatever happened so the Luxembourg PM might as well speak the truth. You can't appease the Brexiteers by giving way to their tantrums.

What any normal person would have seen was the UK 'Prime Minister' being an embarrassment on the world stage. 

[TepidT2O]

The kind of people who see that as a PR win for Johnson are lost to reason anyway. The Brexit shithouses would spin it the same way whatever happened so the Luxembourg PM might as well speak the truth. You can't appease the Brexiteers by giving way to their tantrums.

What any normal person would have seen was the UK 'Prime Minister' being an embarrassment on the world stage. 

These aren’t normal times though....

[Zeb]

Supreme Court starts tomorrow at 10.30 am to hear the appeals on whether Johnson can shut Parliament, and, if not, why not.

Unlike a lot of other courts, Supreme Court live streams what it does so should be able to watch if you want: https://www.supremecourt.uk/live/court-01.html

Not expecting a decision til end of the week or even start of next week.

Adam Wagner (a QC who specialises in human rights cases) has a good primer of issues involved with the Supreme Court deciding the case, while making his own pitch that maybe we should start writing important shit down: https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/brexit/2019/09/week-supreme-court-must-come-age

It has been reported that the Prime Minister may prorogue parliament again in the last two weeks of October, to guarantee Brexit by any means. Whether or not this is true, it highlights the danger that if prorogation for the purpose of avoiding parliamentary scrutiny is permitted by the courts, it will be the thin end of the wedge. The executive would hold a dangerous new power to insulate itself from parliamentary scrutiny.

For the Supreme Court to rule that the Prime Minister has acted in breach of the UK’s constitution would be a defence of the constitutional principles it has been developing for years. But there will be consequences for the court which we, as a liberal democracy, must not shy away from. It is inherently unstable for a constitutional court to operate without a written constitution.

The dangers are clear to see from this case. The judiciary will be accused of politicisation, whichever way it rules. If the court rules against the Prime Minister it will be said, with some justification, that the unwritten constitution gives the judiciary too much discretion - that by merely pronouncing a matter to be ‘constitutional’ it becomes so, and vice-versa. The risk is that deciding this boundary (as opposed to whether facts of individual cases have breached it) becomes a hostage to the personal politics of individual judges.

[Snail]

That’s an excellent post.

[rob1966]

Cracking post.

[shook]

https://twitter.com/adam_heilbron/status/1173398639592579077   - Jo Swinson pre 2016
https://twitter.com/MikeMar82888097/status/1173574569552220162  - Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson pre 2016
of course anyone is allowed to change their minds. Still amazing to how politicians change their positions so drastically

[Zeb]

I'm not sure there's anyone out there who would do that at the moment, to be honest. It also can't be denied that Corbyn actually did pretty bloody well in 2017 when all here expected the end of the Labour party, culminating in their highest vote share since 2001. That was promptly written off as purely remainers trying to put a stop to Brexit, despite the lead up being primarily about other matters and that the same people who claim that also claim that Corbyn is a massive Brexiteer.

'Bloody well' here is not being on the other end of a landslide as 2015/2010 Labour voters moved from undecided to voting Labour as the campaign progressed.

The UK is a conservative country and it always has been. If it always will be is down to the youth who still pretty overwhelmingly rate Corbyn and have been brought into politics by him. It's always going to be difficult for Labour, Milliband was fine and no doubt his kind of character would be popular with the people who are so against "Corbynites" but it didn't stop him getting shit from all angles including the way he ate a bacon sandwich and who his dad was. Labour had been desperately shit since Blair but something happened in the last election that should give people some cause for optimism and maybe question whether their definitive views on what the entire British public is thinking are always correct.

Whatever the cause for optimism you took from the 2017 election, I'm not seeing it in the elections held since. There's being optimistic and there's walking into lampposts cos you can't see out from beneath the rosy specs. The idea of a 'youth vote' for Corbyn is, sadly for Corbyn stans, a longer term trend reflecting a generational shift in politics which dates back to late Labour government period. You can go 18 - 50 and get broadly the same views btw.

I can recognise that Corbyn isn't the best possible leader and i'm by no means some sort of weird cultist as I no doubt will get accused of being. But I just don't understand the way this thread has gone. Lib Dems allowing right wing dickheads into their party? Absolutely fine. Tories finally grow some sense of shame after the way they have fucked our country up and put us in this perilous position? Good on them, let them hold their heads up high. Labour offer the second referendum everyone has been asking for since the results of the first one were counted? How the f*cks that gunna work? What will they put on the ballot paper? He'll campaign for Lexit (we don't know that, by the way). He's not clear on what he wants to happen next (except the pledge he has literally made).

Mainly people seeing a split beyond left/right would be my suggestion.

People ask for nuance from Corbynite cultists but they offer no nuance in return. If we all want the same thing then the sensible thing is surely to see Labour and the Lib Dems working together on this, along with the likes of the SNP, the Greens and Plaid. Not just on the Brexit issue but on the things that matter so much. We weren't far off being able to form a government last time out and after the absolute fucking mess May, Boris and Cummings have made over the last year or two we'd surely manage it in a month or so's time. But instead the Lib Dems are refusing to do business with Labour, are welcoming the right wing who started this mess into their party in political games that won't work. But somehow they've become in vogue again.

Lib Dems have been careful with their phrasing on it being about Corbyn, not Labour. In our search for nuance, that would seem important. Reflective perhaps of those the Lib Dems are asking to vote for them? 'Neither Corbyn nor Johnson'. 'Nearly there' as analysis for 2017 result seems lamp post walking territory. I've been watching this Tory shitshow roll for 9 years now, Labour are still no closer than Brown was. Maybe 'once more the same' isn't working?

On a side note I also wonder why so many people on here even care about what happens to the people of this country seeing as they've written half of them off as a bunch of fucking idiots who they can't stand.

About 20% of them for me.

[ShakaHislop]

In full: Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson interview from Luxembourg with BBC's Laura Kuenssberg

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49717554

BJ: ...

But it is vital that we're ready to come out on 31 October.

And of course what the... parliamentarians threatening to extend and all that kind of thing. They hear that they listened to that over here, but I didn't think it substantially changes their calculations.

LK: MPs though haven't just threatened to extend, MPs have changed the law to try to stop you taking the UK out without a deal at the end of October.

How do you propose to get round that? Because you keep saying you've got no intention of delay...

BJ: I won't. Here's, here's what I want. I will uphold the constitution, I will obey the law, but we will come out on 31 October.

LK: But how if MPs have changed the law to stop you doing that?

BJ: We're going to come out on 31 October and it's vital that people understand that the UK will not extend.

We won't go on remaining in the EU beyond October. What on earth is the point? Do you know how much it costs?

LK: But how will you do that if MPs have changed the law to stop you?

Are you looking for a way round the law? Because that's what it sounds like...

BJ: We will obey the law but we will come out - and - we will come out I should say on 31 October.

LK: But that means you are looking for a way round the law.

I mean, to be really clear about this, Parliament has changed the law to make it almost impossible to take us out of the EU without a deal at the end of October. But you say that you will not do it.

That means that you must be looking for a way around the law?

BJ: Well, you know those are your words. What we're going to do is come out on 31 October deal or no-deal. And staying in beyond 31 October completely... crackers.

You're spending Ł1bn a month for the privilege remaining in the... what is the point?

The people of this country want us to get on and leave the EU and deliver on the mandate of the people.

And staying in costs Ł250m a week, which is which is roughly the same as what it would cost to build a new hospital every week.

That's what Jeremy Corbyn and the opposition parties seem to think is a good idea. I don't think it's a good idea.

LK: You used to say it cost Ł350m a week, now you're saying Ł250m a week?

BJ: I think the priorities of the British people are to come out and that's what we're going to do.

LK: But do you really think that you want to be the kind of prime minister that is looking of ways of sneaking around the law to keep to your political promise?

I mean, everybody knows how strongly you feel...

BJ: These are all your words.

LK: But how will you do it then?

Will you challenge it in court? Will you take Parliament to court?

BJ: Our first priority, if I may say so, just to try and look on the bright side for a second or two, is to come out with a deal and that's what we're working to achieve. And I think we have every prospect of doing that.

LK: But if you don't, I mean you are looking, you know the law has been changed to try to make this impossible.

If you want to look for a way round it, many people believe that means you must be preparing somehow to ignore the law or to challenge that because it's a new area of law.

Would you seek to challenge the law in court? Will the government take Parliament to court?

BJ: What we're going to do is work very hard to get a deal that will allow us to come out.

I see no point whatever in staying on in the EU beyond 31 October and we're going to come out. And actually that is what our friends and partners in the EU would like too. And I think that they've had a bellyful of all this stuff.

You know they want to develop a new relationship with the UK. They're fed up with these endless negotiations, endless delays. They've now delayed twice before to achieve what is completely unclear to me.

LK: Is there a line that you would not cross?

BJ: Well yes, obviously I didn't want to go beyond 31 October. I think that would be a mistake.

LK: In order to stick to that goal, is there anything that you would not do?

Would you rule out suspending parliament again?

BJ: As I say, we're going to uphold the constitution and we're going to obey the law. And it's very important to realise that actually, I think our friends and partners in the EU are keen to work with us to get a deal.

That's what I've been doing here with Jean-Claude Juncker and Michel Barnier. We've been working very hard. We've had a good productive exchange.

Has there been a total breakthrough? I wouldn't say so. But I would say that a huge amount of work is now going to be done to sort it out.

Am I more optimistic than I was when I, when we took office? This morning? I would say a little bit, but not much, just a little bit.

Because I think that there's a, perhaps an even greater willingness on the part of the Commission to engage than I had, than I had thought.

So, so yes. I'm cautiously optimistic, but I'm not counting my chickens. And it is absolutely vital, it's absolutely vital for people to understand that the UK is ready to come out with no-deal if we have to.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49717554

[ShakaHislop]

That's not the first time Johnson has contradicted what the big red bus had to say about how much we pay to the EU.

Skip to the last 10 seconds of the video.

https://twitter.com/mikegalsworthy/status/1172832579009110016

[jepovic]

I'm not sure there's anyone out there who would do that at the moment, to be honest. It also can't be denied that Corbyn actually did pretty bloody well in 2017 when all here expected the end of the Labour party, culminating in their highest vote share since 2001. That was promptly written off as purely remainers trying to put a stop to Brexit, despite the lead up being primarily about other matters and that the same people who claim that also claim that Corbyn is a massive Brexiteer.

snip

That depends on the expectations and the opposition I guess. You know, a draw against the mancs ten years ago would have been an ok result, but now it would be a failure... Corbyn faced a government in shambles with one of the least appealing PMs ever. It was an open goal IMO, and still is.

[ShakaHislop]

Guess which Brexiteer made this prediction in the week of the referendum.

The last thing most EU leaders wanted, once the shock had worn off, was a protracted argument with the United Kingdom which, on the day it left, became their single biggest market. Terms were agreed easily enough. Britain withdrew from the EU’s political structures and institutions, but kept its tariff-free arrangements in place. The rights of EU nationals living in the UK were confirmed, and various reciprocal deals on healthcare and the like remained. For the sake of administrative convenience, Brexit took effect formally on 1 July 2019, to coincide with the mandates of a new European Parliament and Commission.

[Elmo!]

Blog from The Secret Barrister on Gyimah and the Tories blocking the Turing bill. In summary it wasn't becasue he was a homophobe but there reasoning was bollocks and it was for party political gain to get the credit.

https://thesecretbarrister.com/2016/10/29/why-did-the-government-block-the-snps-alan-turing-bill/

[oldfordie]

Guess which Brexiteer made this prediction in the week of the referendum.

Sounds like Hannan,  he was always writing stuff like this, all deleted now of course.

[drmick]

Guess which Brexiteer made this prediction in the week of the referendum.

I don't get it, who makes a prediction in the past tense?

[ShakaHislop]

Sounds like Hannan,  he was always writing stuff like this, all deleted now of course.

You're right about Hannan but if it was deleted, it's back up again.

https://reaction.life/britain-looks-like-brexit/

I don't get it, who makes a prediction in the past tense?

I meant they made a prediction back on the 21st of June 2016 about what Britain would look like in the future (2025) if we voted Leave. It hasn't aged well.

[filopastry]

I'm guessing Hannan as well

[oldfordie]

You're right about Hannan but if it was deleted, it's back up again.

https://reaction.life/britain-looks-like-brexit/

I meant they made a prediction back on the 21st of June 2016 about what Britain would look like in the future (2025) if we voted Leave. It hasn't aged well.

I suppose he can't burn all the evidence 
I remember reading something over a year ago about him deleting loads of twitter predictions etc.
Someone had saved a lot of them. all shown to be complete bull....
Yet people listen to them now believing what they say. crazy.

[alonsoisared]

'Bloody well' here is not being on the other end of a landslide as 2015/2010 Labour voters moved from undecided to voting Labour as the campaign progressed.

Bloody well is performing well above all expectations and, as I said, providing the party's highest vote share in 16 years and their first positive seat swing since '97. In an election that was supposed to be about May and the Tories strengthening their grip, it slipped away and was severely dented. It was a success and a foundation to build on but IMO those who didn't like him from the start refused to see it that way and wouldn't budge. It could've been that moment of unity that Andy talked about but it never was.

Whatever the cause for optimism you took from the 2017 election, I'm not seeing it in the elections held since. There's being optimistic and there's walking into lampposts cos you can't see out from beneath the rosy specs. The idea of a 'youth vote' for Corbyn is, sadly for Corbyn stans, a longer term trend reflecting a generational shift in politics which dates back to late Labour government period. You can go 18 - 50 and get broadly the same views btw.

Mainly people seeing a split beyond left/right would be my suggestion.

I don't think i'm overly optimistic and I certainly don't think a GE now would be a walkover in Labour's favour. They would need help from other parties as it stands but winning an election isn't beyond them. When all the polls suggested Labour were finished in the leadup to the 2017 election, I was told by everyone on here that Corbyn may have lovely principles but none of it matters if you can't get into power. Now he's got a shout of getting in to power with a proposal of the second referendum they've all been asking for but it still isn't enough, and people are leaning towards the Lib Dems instead. Who, incidentally, don't stand a fucking chance of winning an election.

I get that the young people thing is quite normal and it is a generational thing to an extent. But that surge of support for him starting a few years ago was pretty spectacular and I don't see that that support has gone anywhere. The biggest music scene in the country representing a demagraphic who have long struggled to feel represented by any politicians has multiple massive artists who publically back him. Kids love him, they joined the party to vote for him and, naively or not, they continue to believe in him.

Lib Dems have been careful with their phrasing on it being about Corbyn, not Labour. In our search for nuance, that would seem important. Reflective perhaps of those the Lib Dems are asking to vote for them? 'Neither Corbyn nor Johnson'. 'Nearly there' as analysis for 2017 result seems lamp post walking territory. I've been watching this Tory shitshow roll for 9 years now, Labour are still no closer than Brown was. Maybe 'once more the same' isn't working?

About 20% of them for me.

Labour have been on the slide since 2001. The Tories have dominated British Politics since the War. The "once more the same" surely can't apply to Corbyn who is someone completely different to what we've seen before. He's had one election so far which saw Labour's position markedly improve from before. I reckon he'd do even better in the next one. If they were to perform worse then I would gladly hold my hands up, admit I was wrong and say it has to be time for somebody else to come in, if the right person is out there. Because, believe it or not, not everyone who has some time for him and his policies and think he's been given a ridiculously rough ride are mad cultists who can't see the wood for the...lamposts.

[alonsoisared]

That depends on the expectations and the opposition I guess. You know, a draw against the mancs ten years ago would have been an ok result, but now it would be a failure... Corbyn faced a government in shambles with one of the least appealing PMs ever. It was an open goal IMO, and still is.

Because David Cameron was so irresistibly brilliant in 2015. The bloke shagged a dead pig. How many open goals have Labour missed since the War in your opinion, because for Labour this whole period has been a pretty long tale of woe that doesn't start and end with Corbyn. At the end of the day he drastically improved on previous results, way above expectations. Revise it however you like but at the time it was a very positive result.

[Zeb]

Bloody well is performing well above all expectations and, as I said, providing the party's highest vote share in 16 years and their first positive seat swing since '97. In an election that was supposed to be about May and the Tories strengthening their grip, it slipped away and was severely dented. It was a success and a foundation to build on but IMO those who didn't like him from the start refused to see it that way and wouldn't budge. It could've been that moment of unity that Andy talked about but it never was.

That's winning the passing as a political argument.Starting from 'May was clear favorite' but not stepping back to 'why May thought she could win a bigger majority' would seem disingenuous.

 

I don't think i'm overly optimistic and I certainly don't think a GE now would be a walkover in Labour's favour. They would need help from other parties as it stands but winning an election isn't beyond them. When all the polls suggested Labour were finished in the leadup to the 2017 election, I was told by everyone on here that Corbyn may have lovely principles but none of it matters if you can't get into power. Now he's got a shout of getting in to power with a proposal of the second referendum they've all been asking for but it still isn't enough, and people are leaning towards the Lib Dems instead. Who, incidentally, don't stand a fucking chance of winning an election.

Yup. It's almost as if you build a brand on 'trustworthy politician with principles' and then spend two years triangulating like fuck then voters may notice. They may not. They may be won back over. Life's strange.

I get that the young people thing is quite normal and it is a generational thing to an extent. But that surge of support for him starting a few years ago was pretty spectacular and I don't see that that support has gone anywhere. The biggest music scene in the country representing a demagraphic who have long struggled to feel represented by any politicians has multiple massive artists who publically back him. Kids love him, they joined the party to vote for him and, naively or not, they continue to believe in him.

Think it's very fair to point out that Corbyn's doing well with his share of the youth vote. It's also fair to point out that a small number of highly energised students wins you university cities by bigger margins than you did before. That's Labour's fundamental problem with choices over policy and future direction. Not Corbyn's fault. And demographics are in Labour's favour ultimately if trend continues of everyone hating Tories. But as I don't blame him for the background or context, I think it risible to also try to attribute every good thing flowing from him.

Labour have been on the slide since 2001. The Tories have dominated British Politics since the War. The "once more the same" surely can't apply to Corbyn who is someone completely different to what we've seen before. He's had one election so far which saw Labour's position markedly improve from before. I reckon he'd do even better in the next one. If they were to perform worse then I would gladly hold my hands up, admit I was wrong and say it has to be time for somebody else to come in, if the right person is out there. Because, believe it or not, not everyone who has some time for him and his policies and think he's been given a ridiculously rough ride are mad cultists who can't see the wood for the...lamposts.

Said for a while, there's a route to a Labour minority government there if Labour have the nimbleness to do it. I'm not seeing much positive difference with Corbyn if I'm honest - he's more notable for his absence than his presence. Maybe he's different to those who don't have an MP like mine? Not sure our search for nuance is much helped by erecting targets to tilt at which weren't there in what we're replying to.