Topic: Defending Set Pieces

[Solomon Grundy]

We got well and truly spoilt by Sami. When Sami was in the team is the only time I've felt comfortable with our set piece defending.

Maybe we should be hiring Ron Yeats to find us another Sami then.

[gooner1]

one area that really concerns me,   BR has had plenty of time to address this yet its still our achilles heal. Things will need to improve if we are to finish in the top 4  or win a trophy.

agree. I personally think he needs a defensive assitant to come in and get defence tighter. We bought in steve bould who made us much tigher at the back from set pieces. United had carlos guy who tightened their defence. You need someone to get rodgers to help you out with defence that costing you many points at hull, swansea, everton, newcastle, city, arsenal.

[Funky_Gibbons]

agree. I personally think he needs a defensive assitant to come in and get defence tighter. We bought in steve bould who made us much tigher at the back from set pieces. United had carlos guy who tightened their defence. You need someone to get rodgers to help you out with defence that costing you many points at hull, swansea, everton, newcastle, city, arsenal.

You've conceded three goals less than us and shipped six goals against City so don't try and make out Bould had transformed your defence into George Grahams. 

[gooner1]

You've conceded three goals less than us and shipped six goals against City so don't try and make out Bould had transformed your defence into George Grahams.

take villa and city gammes away we let just nine goas in the other 17 games we played mate, so he made a difference big time which shows in not letting liverpool, spurs or chelsea score at our turf.

Anyway thread about your defending at set pieces and to score two at swansea, newcastle and three at everton and not win any of them shows to me that this is area you need to work on big time.

[Mamadou]

You've conceded three goals less than us and shipped six goals against City so don't try and make out Bould had transformed your defence into George Grahams.

have they conceded from set pieces?

[Banquo's Ghost]

nah mate, ta, you've been doing this recently. First of all pulling an "I know better" (probably true but I'm really not interested without you making the argument). And then a just splendidly patronising "do you want to guess... ?" with a "I'll give you a little clue lad" for some extra condescension added on. No, I sodding don't. I'm not interested in playing guessing games with you. It was a shite result that I still feel bad about, I've an exceedingly long day with the inlaws, and I don't come on here to be talked down to.

And also, you don't bother actually taking on any of the substantive bits of my post—just dismissive.

Phase of Play is a highly experienced coach who shares his insights here. He's not being patronising, he's doing what all good educators do - asking us to think for ourselves.

The internet is full of opinions masquerading as The Truth. PoP honours us by challenging our prejudices and preconceptions from a position of knowledge and experience. I for one, really appreciate his insights, as I am woefully ignorant of football philosophy. This forum benefits from his excellent posts, however infuriating one finds the question being asked - and trying to find the post wherein the answer may be addressed!

[007.lankyguy]

I think part of the problem is man for man we don't have particularly big or physically strong players. Bar Sakho and maybe Skrtel, we look like we just look like losing the battle in the box.

City on the other hand had Negredo, Zabaleta, Toure, Kompany, Lescott and to some extent Kolorov who are always threatening from set pieces.

Personally I'm not particularly worried because teams with the physical presence of city are few and far between and those that do tend to lack the overall qualities that city possesses - ie they may be threatening from set pieces but they would be much mor average every where else. We will out score these teams.

At the moment I would prefer our small and mobile midfield to just having a physical presence to help defend set pieces.

Don't think that's an unfair point. It can be an issue and again, as you say, you would rather have our small, mobile midfield and attack than concentrate on physicality and height merely for set pieces.

At the same time though, we're still not quite good enough defending them. Yesterday's first goal is difficult - Kompany's a very powerful player and always going to be difficult to deal with. To be honest, Skrtel should've stopped pulling at his shirt about two seconds before he did so that he could have challenged for the ball - pretty much every defender, if they're man marking from a corner, has hold of his opponent's shirt but if you have to do that, you do it so that you don't lose your man early on. When the ball comes in though, you then have to challenge for the ball. If you've had hold of his shirt up to and as the ball is kicked, you should be close enough to him and you should then challenge for the ball.

It is still a difficult one with a player like Kompany. The corner was an outswinger rather than an inswinger, where you could maybe organise, for example, a line of four zonal players and then in front, a line of three players blocking runs - an outswinger means different angle you're heading the ball at, the ball is often going to be deeper with an outswinger and blocking runs from deeper positions isn't then as necessary because that's where you're actually going to be challenging for the ball. He wasn't attacking the ball on the run and he was man marked so it was pretty much about challenging for the ball in the air 1v1 with Skrtel and Kompany is a very hard player to try and challenge with in the air. Knowing that, we might possibly have put two men on the post maybe but then Allen was in a position to clear it anyway. I can't really blame Allen because although he maybe could have headed it instead of trying to kick it, it came so quickly and it was bouncing up so it was difficult to judge the height.

[gooner1]

have they conceded from set pieces?

Hardly. We let in one at city and one at united but thats it as far as i known. With per and kos at the back we be awesome from set pieces most of the time.

[gooner1]

Don't think that's an unfair point. It can be an issue and again, as you say, you would rather have our small, mobile midfield and attack than concentrate on physicality and height merely for set pieces.

At the same time though, we're still not quite good enough defending them. Yesterday's first goal is difficult - Kompany's a very powerful player and always going to be difficult to deal with. To be honest, Skrtel should've stopped pulling at his shirt about two seconds before he did so that he could have challenged for the ball - pretty much every defender, if they're man marking from a corner, has hold of his opponent's shirt but if you have to do that, you do it so that you don't lose your man early on. When the ball comes in though, you then have to challenge for the ball. If you've had hold of his shirt up to and as the ball is kicked, you should be close enough to him and you should then challenge for the ball.

It is still a difficult one with a player like Kompany. The corner was an outswinger rather than an inswinger, where you could maybe organise, for example, a line of four zonal players and then in front, a line of three players blocking runs - an outswinger means different angle you're heading the ball at, the ball is often going to be deeper with an outswinger and blocking runs from deeper positions isn't then as necessary because that's where you're actually going to be challenging for the ball. He wasn't attacking the ball on the run and he was man marked so it was pretty much about challenging for the ball in the air 1v1 with Skrtel and Kompany is a very hard player to try and challenge with in the air. Knowing that, we might possibly have put two men on the post maybe but then Allen was in a position to clear it anyway. I can't really blame Allen because although he maybe could have headed it instead of trying to kick it, it came so quickly and it was bouncing up so it was difficult to judge the height.

I think when skertel and agger were at their best in 2009 peroid they were in control at set pieces along with hypia. You just don,t have top class center back at his peak leading other defenders at set pieces in that mould

[Funky_Gibbons]

take villa and city gammes away we let just nine goas in the other 17 games we played mate, so he made a difference big time which shows in not letting liverpool, spurs or chelsea score at our turf.

Anyway thread about your defending at set pieces and to score two at swansea, newcastle and three at everton and not win any of them shows to me that this is area you need to work on big time.

It needs more work on the training pitch, defensive coaches is knee jerk.

[cox3100]

thought Skrtel had a brilliant game apart from defending from set pieces,why is he marking there best headers of the ball?

thought Sakho should have been marking Kompany.

[steveeastend]

I think when skertel and agger were at their best in 2009 peroid they were in control at set pieces along with hypia. You just don,t have top class center back at his peak leading other defenders at set pieces in that mould

We-conceded-not-noticable-more-goals-than-any-other-top-team-in-the-PL-so-how-can-our-defense-be-any-shite? How? And-we-didnīt-concede-more-from-set-pieces-compared-to-the-likes-of-City-f.e.. So-how-can-our-defending-of-set-pieces-be-shite? How?

What does your argument make of Tottenham, Arsenal, or United?

Itīs shite stirring bull shite coming from an Arsenal fan (and Sky) and unfortunately a lot of posters here are chiming in for whatever reaoson.

We are conceding less than last season, people might remember, suddenly our center backs are shite.. well. 

[Solomon Grundy]

defensive coaches is knee jerk.

And according to PoP extremely rare.

[didi shamone]

Maybe we should be hiring Ron Yeats to find us another Sami then.

Or even Sami to find us another Ron Yeats.

[Funky_Gibbons]

And according to PoP extremely rare.

Is Mark Lawrenson free?

[i6uuaq]

nah mate, ta, you've been doing this recently. First of all pulling an "I know better" (probably true but I'm really not interested without you making the argument). And then a just splendidly patronising "do you want to guess... ?" with a "I'll give you a little clue lad" for some extra condescension added on. No, I sodding don't. I'm not interested in playing guessing games with you. It was a shite result that I still feel bad about, I've an exceedingly long day with the inlaws, and I don't come on here to be talked down to.

And also, you don't bother actually taking on any of the substantive bits of my post—just dismissive.

Cue unpopular opinion.

To be fair, I'm with bepoq, at least in this particular thread. The post did sound quite patronizing. I was especially interested in bepoq's point, whether we could be a statistical outlier.

It doesn't seem easy to find statistics on goals conceded from set pieces per team, so when I get to a computer, I'll probably try and use whoscored.com to find out what proportion of goals are scored from set pieces in total, which should give an indication of the average rate at which teams are conceding from set pieces.

[didi shamone]

Is Mark Lawrenson free?

Unfortunately he was never locked up .

[gooner1]

We-conceded-not-noticable-more-goals-than-any-other-top-team-in-the-PL-so-how-can-our-defense-be-any-shite? How? And-we-didnīt-concede-more-from-set-pieces-compared-to-the-likes-of-City-f.e.. So-how-can-our-defending-of-set-pieces-be-shite? How?

What does your argument make of Tottenham, Arsenal, or United?

Itīs shite stirring bull shite coming from an Arsenal fan (and Sky) and unfortunately a lot of posters here are chiming in for whatever reaoson. We are conceding less than last season, people might remember, suddenly our center backs are shite.. well.

Spurs and united are just as bad to be fair but you have better attack the both so it just saying its holding you back. You let in 15 goals in seven away games despite scoring 17 goals i the same amount of away games. You let in to many set piece goals at newcastle, ciity, everton  twice.

You let in 43 goals last season and your heading for the same amount with 21 goals let in after 17 games . Last year you scored 73 goals so going forward was not a issue. But defending last few seasons have been.

[Solomon Grundy]

Or even Sami to find us another Ron Yeats.

Either way would be great.

[WorldChampions]

I feel like we will conceed every single time the ball in launched in from a dead ball. Not sure what the answer is but it needs sorting. Skrtel needs to concentrate on attacking the ball instead of wrestling.

[Solomon Grundy]

Is Mark Lawrenson free?

Yes. Free from his senses.

[Frizzo]

I feel like we will conceed every single time the ball in launched in from a dead ball. Not sure what the answer is but it needs sorting. Skrtel needs to concentrate on attacking the ball instead of wrestling.

Feeling like we're going to concede doesn't hold any basis statistically.

A shocking lack of stats in this thread (as in all 'set piece' threads) so I'll wait until I see some to decide whether or not we're good/bad at defending free kicks.

Also, this bagging Skrtel...when you're marking man to man you pretty much have to do exactly what he did. You don't get a run and jump at the ball like you can when marking zonally.

If we'd conceded a goal with zonal marking people would be up in arms about the system. Why aren't people jumping up and down about how shit man to man marking is as a system?

[mrantarctica]

Cue unpopular opinion.

To be fair, I'm with bepoq, at least in this particular thread. The post did sound quite patronizing. I was especially interested in bepoq's point, whether we could be a statistical outlier.

It doesn't seem easy to find statistics on goals conceded from set pieces per team, so when I get to a computer, I'll probably try and use whoscored.com to find out what proportion of goals are scored from set pieces in total, which should give an indication of the average rate at which teams are conceding from set pieces.

It'd be worth seeing those stats. We have to concede goals somewhere, and I wonder if it's more that we don't concede in other areas like other teams that makes it seem like we concede too many on free kicks. I do agree with one of the other posters that the percentage of goals conceded made up by free kicks is less relevant. I think we were quoted a figure of 43% but what does this really mean? And how does this compare with a team that only concedes 30% of their goals from free kicks (but overall goals conceded still similar)? Does it mean that we're any worse at defending free kicks, or is it that we give away fouls instead of conceding from open play (like the other team might do for instance) ?

The most important would be to look at how many attacking free kicks we give away, and how many result in goals, compare/contrast said numbers with other teams and determine is this a function of

A) poor defending from conceded free kicks (higher than average proportion of free kicks end up as goals)

or

B) giving away free kicks in bad areas too frequently (same proportion end up as goals as any other team but absolute number of goals is higher because we simply give away more than anyone else)

I think they indicate different problems in defending and the solutions might be somewhat different.

I agree with BoH's observation on corners. It seems to make sense to me. Presumably corners are easier to prepare for with training, and the variability from corner to corner is not as great as with attacking free kicks - after all, a corner is always delivered from the same place, and the trajectory can only really be a finite (but large) number of possibilities while it would seem the possibilities from free kicks are seemingly infinite in variability, and there are additional variables for a keeper to consider his position, whether personnel are used in a wall etc. which probably makes it harder to prepare pre-match. This would probably explain why they generally don't yield many goals as free kicks.

[gooner1]

I feel like we will conceed every single time the ball in launched in from a dead ball. Not sure what the answer is but it needs sorting. Skrtel needs to concentrate on attacking the ball instead of wrestling.

you need defensive coach and to buy top class center back in the window

[rocco]

Did Rodgers refer without saying that set pieces needs sorting in his post match interviews?

[rocco]

you need defensive coach and to buy top class center back in the window

Rodgers won't bring in a defensive coach and we have 4 quality centre backs , they just need to practice as a unit on set pieces
Pair them off and practice

[McSquared]

you need defensive coach and to buy top class center back in the window

You probably need to tootle back off to your arsenal thread.

[WorldChampions]

Feeling like we're going to concede doesn't hold any basis statistically.

A shocking lack of stats in this thread (as in all 'set piece' threads) so I'll wait until I see some to decide whether or not we're good/bad at defending free kicks.

Also, this bagging Skrtel...when you're marking man to man you pretty much have to do exactly what he did. You don't get a run and jump at the ball like you can when marking zonally.

If we'd conceded a goal with zonal marking people would be up in arms about the system. Why aren't people jumping up and down about how shit man to man marking is as a system?

Well if you can find any stats that say how many times the attacking team have won the header in those situations I would be willing to bet its a large percentage. Its obviously not just me that gets worried on set pieces judging by this thread and I'm sure the same thoughts are going through our players heads too which isn't helping.

[WorldChampions]

you need defensive coach and to buy top class center back in the window

We have couple of top centre backs. I wouldn't say your current pair are top class, far from it.

[HaskoLFC]

You guys may know more than me, but shouldn't a set piece be easy to practice and defend. I mean it's a situation which can be repeated many times, if we get a big player(ngoo in the u21s) and repeat the scenario many times, surely we'll improve in defending them.

Its not an unpredicted scenario or anything, its simply a cross which needs to be dealt with, yesterday every corner, freekick and cross they were putting into the box was landing on the players head and they were heading it goalwards.

I'm genuinely fearful to see Skrtel against Chelsea esp considering their size, John Terry as much of an idiot that he is, is a beast in the air plus Ivanovic and Cahill.

I also feel, as mentioned in another thread, that now Brendan Rodgers has criticised the referees they may punish us by giving a penalty against Skrtel.

[Twelfth Man]

I also feel, as mentioned in another thread, that now Brendan Rodgers has criticised the referees they may punish us by giving a penalty against Skrtel.

The Skrtel penalty will come, he will be made an example of. Then it will be back to normal, no one will be punished for it.

[i6uuaq]

I take PoPs point about set pieces being generally a low-percentage situation, and acknowledge that his vast experience in coaching qualifies him to make such statements. But I do wonder if set piece scoring rate at the top professional level is different from that in the lower tiers. Seeing the fine lines which divide the top teams, it is not unimaginable that the best teams (especially professionals training full-time) spend slightly more time practicing attacking set pieces.

Anyway, according to Whoscored.com, every team has played 18 matches. A total of 479 goals have been scored, of which 113 have come from set pieces, which means that 23.6% of all goals scored have come from set pieces (not including penalties and OGs which may have resulted indirectly from set pieces).

According to the OP, we've conceded 7 goals in the league from set pieces (again, minus penalties and OGs) out of 21 goals conceded, a rate of 33.3%. So I think it's true that this season, we've conceded proportionately more goals from set pieces as compared to other teams.


If we look at it as set piece goals conceded per game, we've conceded 7 in 18 games which is 0.389 per game. Across the league, 113 SPGs have been conceded over 360 games, which is a rate of 0.314 per game. So we've been conceding set piece goals 24% faster than the league average.

Since we concede set piece goals faster than the league average, with a defence that has been conceding goals slower than the league average (average total goals conceded per team is 23.95, we're on 21), I daresay that we are below average at defending set pieces.


Caveats:

A better comparison perhaps would be to count goals conceded from set pieces against total number of set pieces faced, but again, it's hard to find those numbers. This would probably be the best measure, but it'd be bloody difficult to count. I guess if we added all the corners a team gets, plus all the attacking-third free kicks, it would give an approximate number....

Again, there doesn't seem to be easily available statistics on how many goals each team concedes from set pieces, so it's not possible to tell how we compare against other individual teams, unless someone compiles data like the OP did.

Lastly, if anyone has suggestions on how to present the above information better, I'm open to hearing it.

Edit: bolded some stuff to try and highlight the important numbers

[gooner1]

Rodgers won't bring in a defensive coach and we have 4 quality centre backs , they just need to practice as a unit on set pieces
Pair them off and practice

not sure agger and skertel the center backs they once were . kolo the same and has never been player he was when  he was with us in mid 00s . Only the french kid has the long term promise to be at his peak for you at the back.

I am just being honest mate. you only kept one clean sheet away from home since villa away in august. Its a issue you need to work on.

[gooner1]

I take PoPs point about set pieces being generally a low-percentage situation, and acknowledge that his vast experience in coaching qualifies him to make such statements. But I do wonder if set piece scoring rate at the top professional level is different from that in the lower tiers. Seeing the fine lines which divide the top teams, it is not unimaginable that the best teams (especially professionals training full-time) spend slightly more time practicing attacking set pieces.

Anyway, according to Whoscored.com, every team has played 18 matches. A total of 479 goals have been scored, of which 113 have come from set pieces, which means that 23.6% of all goals scored have come from set pieces (not including penalties and OGs which may have resulted indirectly from set pieces).

According to the OP, we've conceded 7 goals in the league from set pieces (again, minus penalties and OGs) out of 21 goals conceded, a rate of 33.3%. So I think it's true that this season, we've conceded proportionately more goals from set pieces as compared to other teams.

If we look at it as a SPG conceded per game, we've conceded 7 in 18 games which is 0.389 per game. Across the league, 113 SPGs have been conceded over 360 games, which is a rate of 0.314 per game. So we've been conceding set piece goals faster than the league average.

Since we concede set piece goals faster than the league average, with a defence that has been conceding goals slower than the league average (average total goals conceded per team is 23.95, we're on 21), I daresay that we are below average at defending set pieces.


Caveats:

A better comparison perhaps would be to count goals conceded from set pieces against total number of set pieces faced, but again, it's hard to find those numbers.

Again, there doesn't seem to be easily available statistics on how many goals each team concedes from set pieces, so it's not possible to tell how we compare against other individual teams, unless someone compiles data like the OP did.

Lastly, if anyone has suggestions on how to present the above information better, I'm open to hearing it.

You got it pin point right saying this you let in 7 goals from set pieces from 18 games. that not good enough and you need to in next two days in training need to work and work and work as a back four on this.

[gooner1]

You probably need to tootle back off to your arsenal thread.

Just giving some advice that all. trying to be fair.

[gooner1]

Did Rodgers refer without saying that set pieces needs sorting in his post match interviews?

He made points after both cardiff and city game about it being a issue. But he yet to sort it out.

[TSC]

We-conceded-not-noticable-more-goals-than-any-other-top-team-in-the-PL-so-how-can-our-defense-be-any-shite? How? And-we-didnīt-concede-more-from-set-pieces-compared-to-the-likes-of-City-f.e.. So-how-can-our-defending-of-set-pieces-be-shite? How?

What does your argument make of Tottenham, Arsenal, or United?

Itīs shite stirring bull shite coming from an Arsenal fan (and Sky) and unfortunately a lot of posters here are chiming in for whatever reaoson.

We are conceding less than last season, people might remember, suddenly our center backs are shite.. well. 

It's basic defensive mistakes which are plain to anyone watching the match.  Skrtel yesterday and poor organisation to leave a player completely un-marked at the back post v Cardiff are just two recent examples.  It's not some silly agenda from Sky or Arsenal fans ffs.

[gooner1]

We have couple of top centre backs. I wouldn't say your current pair are top class, far from it.

Per and kos are class and only everton center backs have had more clean sheets then them this season. anyway you had some great center backs once but they not at their best though the kid from france is a great talent

[gooner1]

It's basic defensive mistakes which are plain to anyone watching the match.  Skrtel yesterday and poor organisation to leave a player completely un-marked at the back post v Cardiff are just two recent examples.  It's not some silly agenda from Sky or Arsenal fans ffs.

Well said. Both liverpool and non liverpool fans have pointed out the issue from set pieces. Look at set piece palace scored, or cardiff scored or southampton scored at home to. Its just seem you lack a hypia at his best or jamie to lead you from set pieces. Under rafa even if you more boring going forward at times, you were so strong from set pieces.

[Frizzo]

I take PoPs point about set pieces being generally a low-percentage situation, and acknowledge that his vast experience in coaching qualifies him to make such statements. But I do wonder if set piece scoring rate at the top professional level is different from that in the lower tiers. Seeing the fine lines which divide the top teams, it is not unimaginable that the best teams (especially professionals training full-time) spend slightly more time practicing attacking set pieces.

Anyway, according to Whoscored.com, every team has played 18 matches. A total of 479 goals have been scored, of which 113 have come from set pieces, which means that 23.6% of all goals scored have come from set pieces (not including penalties and OGs which may have resulted indirectly from set pieces).

According to the OP, we've conceded 7 goals in the league from set pieces (again, minus penalties and OGs) out of 21 goals conceded, a rate of 33.3%. So I think it's true that this season, we've conceded proportionately more goals from set pieces as compared to other teams.


If we look at it as set piece goals conceded per game, we've conceded 7 in 18 games which is 0.389 per game. Across the league, 113 SPGs have been conceded over 360 games, which is a rate of 0.314 per game. So we've been conceding set piece goals 24% faster than the league average.

Since we concede set piece goals faster than the league average, with a defence that has been conceding goals slower than the league average (average total goals conceded per team is 23.95, we're on 21), I daresay that we are below average at defending set pieces.


Caveats:

A better comparison perhaps would be to count goals conceded from set pieces against total number of set pieces faced, but again, it's hard to find those numbers. This would probably be the best measure, but it'd be bloody difficult to count. I guess if we added all the corners a team gets, plus all the attacking-third free kicks, it would give an approximate number....

Again, there doesn't seem to be easily available statistics on how many goals each team concedes from set pieces, so it's not possible to tell how we compare against other individual teams, unless someone compiles data like the OP did.

Lastly, if anyone has suggestions on how to present the above information better, I'm open to hearing it.

Edit: bolded some stuff to try and highlight the important numbers

You can also look at this and say we've conceded one more than average.

Hardly a crisis.