Topic: Sportwashing-A general thread

[rushyman]

Golf was easier because buying a bunch of older golfers effectively split the game. All they have done so far is cream off some players who are pretty much past it. The one that did worry me was Neves, those sorts of signings will worry me more but they cannot buy the game in the same way because it is not as mobile as golf. We will always have local football and the fact that it's better in Italy (as it was), Spain (as it was) or anywhere else, never stopped me from enjoying English football.
They may take away our asian viewers or the like but we will still have football here and I suppose that is how a Rochdale fan might have felt for the last 30 years as they saw the PL take their game away from them.

Yes absolutely

Elite football I should've added

A new chapter has started for me now. Im a qualified referee as of last February and will helping in grass roots and the development of futsal.

Dontbget me wrong I'll be watching us and following as usual. But put it this way, my pulse being 100+ when we are 1 goal up at the end of games is finished.

Sometimes you need to give up on people, not because you don't care but because they don't

[Black Bull Nova]

They can buy what the want but they cannot have what they want and they will still be what they are and we will still be what we are.



And, to add,  I've looked at who is playing in Saudi next year and, so far, it's has beens and nonentities so far for me. English Championship looks far more exciting.

[GinKop]

With these lot playing the long-term game, I am pretty sure they will look at supporters like me and the majority that I interact with who are totally against them and think "let's leave them".

Like I said earlier, these guys are SMART. Most of the people working for them will have MBA's from global business schools. They know exactly what they're doing.

They will take over the game, it's only a matter of when. And they'll get their critical mass by targeting and winning over the next generation of football fans who you can describe as the TikTok generation.

There will be exceptions of course, but when they get the mass market of the next generation, the tipping point will be passed.

Dontbget me wrong I'll be watching us and following as usual. But put it this way, my pulse being 100+ when we are 1 goal up at the end of games is finished.

Sometimes you need to give up on people, not because you don't care but because they don't

Summed up my exact sentiments.

[darragh85]

If Saudi league took off would the leagues in Qatar and uae follow suit? Maybe city owners might fuck off back home

[darragh85]

With these lot playing the long-term game, I am pretty sure they will look at supporters like me and the majority that I interact with who are totally against them and think "let's leave them".

Like I said earlier, these guys are SMART. Most of the people working for them will have MBA's from global business schools. They know exactly what they're doing.

They will take over the game, it's only a matter of when. And they'll get their critical mass by targeting and winning over the next generation of football fans who you can describe as the TikTok generation.

There will be exceptions of course, but when they get the mass market of the next generation, the tipping point will be passed.

Summed up my exact sentiments.

That's a great outcome then isn't it? They take the obscene,  bloated greed driven  industry we call football today and we can go back to the roots and start again and returns some of the long lost values to the sport.

Not a single person from Europe will watch Saudi league football regardless of who goes there.

[Red-Soldier]

It's reached so much more than simple sportswashing now

It started out like that. Now they're just buying the worlds favourite sport, much like they buy tigers and gold cars out of boredom

I truly think half the fun for them is exposing the fact everyone has a price. That football is essentially up for sale

Like the gif you see of one of them pouring cash over a female reporters head. To demean, to control.

'We can buy you and there's nothing you can do about it'

That's exactly it for them.  And the game is full of people who'll take the money, just like golf and boxing.

You don't have to look too deep into sport, to realise it's pretty souless and disgusting.

[Red-Soldier]

Yes absolutely

Elite football I should've added

A new chapter has started for me now. Im a qualified referee as of last February and will helping in grass roots and the development of futsal.

Dontbget me wrong I'll be watching us and following as usual. But put it this way, my pulse being 100+ when we are 1 goal up at the end of games is finished.

Sometimes you need to give up on people, not because you don't care but because they don't

Good point.

[GinKop]

That's a great outcome then isn't it? They take the obscene,  bloated greed driven  industry we call football today and we can go back to the roots and start again and returns some of the long lost values to the sport.

Not a single person from Europe will watch Saudi league football regardless of who goes there.

I'm more than happy to be one of those exceptions and have back the game that I fell in love with, which doesn't exist at the moment.

[reddebs]

Having read a decent amount of the Hendo thread, there's a few that have already been washed.

Not by sport but Thatcherism, Capitalism, Toryism and general selfish greedism.

It's sad and very alarming that these views are held by normal, everyday folk and not just the wealthy elite 😟

[elsewhere]

what happened Chinese football league? We had similar concerns in terms of talented players moving there few years ago after Oscar transfer and they were handing out big money but seems like that 'project' somehow stopped and teams are not as generous as they used to be.

[Iska]

Oscar is still there, incredibly - in fact it looks like he’s nine points clear at the top of the league.

What I think is the league started out with a lot of speculative funding, took a view after a couple of years that the whole package wasn’t going to become whatever they had been hoping for, and funding was withdrawn to some extent (though obviously not totally if it’s still worth Oscar’s time).  It’s an insanely wasteful way to spend capital but that seems to be pretty normal for the past couple of decades in China.

I don’t think there’s many lessons there for what might happen in Saudi.  They have even less need to make returns than China did, and their aims are different - I guess China wanted to build the biggest league as a lucrative business, whereas Saudi want it as a trophy.

[In the Name of Klopp]

Tv2 Sports Denmark, just had 15-20 min segment of sportswashing in pro cycling (state-owned teams/UAE, Bahrain, Israel, Kazakhstan). They interviewed some fans and riders, don't seem to care. It was good for cycling, more money etc. Only one person objected. I get the feeling, people don't give a shit.

[Iska]

Tv2 Sports Denmark, just had 15-20 min segment of sportswashing in pro cycling (state-owned teams/UAE, Bahrain, Israel, Kazakhstan). They interviewed some fans and riders, don't seem to care. It was good for cycling, more money etc. Only one person objected. I get the feeling, people don't give a shit.

I wonder if the difference in football is that we feel like we own the teams, like the fans have a stake in them in a way that isn’t the case in almost any other sport. You’re not going to feel degraded by Ruritania using a team for branding, when five years ago it existed to promote Sky or somebody instead.

[ArcticRed]

It could also be the fact that they're not splashing the cash like the football teams are. If they came in with budgets 2-3 times the next one, more people might take notice. I know there was a lot of talk about the budget of Sky back in the day, which at time I think was reported at twice the nearest competitor.
As it stands, for 2023 UAE, Bahrain and Astana are ranked 4., 5. and 10. as far as budget is concerned.
Also, they aren't as dominant in terms of results as some of the sportswashed football teams.

[Fromola]

Nobody is going to care about the Saudi league, there's no future in it because it just won't generate interest. It might be longer lasting than the Chinese Super League (money ran out quickly) but won't be any more prestigious. That's why they buy Premier League teams or bring World Cups to Qatar - that's how they sportswash effectively.

MLS still has a bigger profile than the Saudi league. Messi helps but America has that market and can produce packed stadiums and grow genuine fanbases in cities up and down the land. In Europe you've got clubs with 3 centuries of tradition.

[Yorkykopite]

Is it possible Newcastle will become a feeder club for the Saudis? I'd like that to happen.

[AndyInVA]

I’m trying to think what it will look like in a years time.

Clearly the Saudi league will create a lot of football interest in the Saudi area and probably the Arab diaspora around the world. I can’t imagine the Saudi league will have an impact on the Football community in Europe, the Americas and Pacific countries. I can only see the league making headlines in England when something particular happens but it won’t get general coverage and it’s hard to imagine a lot of general interest. Their league starts in August also. I don’t see them pulling any non Arab viewers away from domestic leagues.

I agree with someone’s point that older players will be lured away from the MLS.

I feel the Saudis will just look at their project as a waste of money in a couple of years and go back to buying clubs instead.

[rushyman]

I’m trying to think what it will look like in a years time.

Clearly the Saudi league will create a lot of football interest in the Saudi area and probably the Arab diaspora around the world. I can’t imagine the Saudi league will have an impact on the Football community in Europe, the Americas and Pacific countries. I can only see the league making headlines in England when something particular happens but it won’t get general coverage and it’s hard to imagine a lot of general interest. Their league starts in August also. I don’t see them pulling any non Arab viewers away from domestic leagues.

I agree with someone’s point that older players will be lured away from the MLS.

I feel the Saudis will just look at their project as a waste of money in a couple of years and go back to buying clubs instead.

But meanwhile they're exposed all elite footballers loyalty and what their main aim is

Money. I always understood that not everyone who plays for us grew up wearing LFC pyjamas and all other clubs players the same

But this shit has all kind of hammered it home. Reminded me I'm watching a load of millionaires play football.

On top of all the Man City Newcastle stuff I don't see a way back for my head and football. Maybe once the season starts everything in my head will reset

Yes. I maybe need turning off and on again

[Peabee]

But meanwhile they're exposed all elite footballers loyalty and what their main aim is

Money. I always understood that not everyone who plays for us grew up wearing LFC pyjamas and all other clubs players the same

But this shit has all kind of hammered it home. Reminded me I'm watching a load of millionaires play football.

On top of all the Man City Newcastle stuff I don't see a way back for my head and football. Maybe once the season starts everything in my head will reset

Yes. I maybe need turning off and on again

This is what I've been mulling over. Supporting extremely wealthy people play in an increasingly greedy game.

[SvenJohansen]

But meanwhile they're exposed all elite footballers loyalty and what their main aim is

Money. I always understood that not everyone who plays for us grew up wearing LFC pyjamas and all other clubs players the same

But this shit has all kind of hammered it home. Reminded me I'm watching a load of millionaires play football.

On top of all the Man City Newcastle stuff I don't see a way back for my head and football. Maybe once the season starts everything in my head will reset

Yes. I maybe need turning off and on again

I think there's quite a lot of people that feel the same, me included. For me football is nearly over. It's sportswashing and the Saudi League now that's front and centre but before all that there was the realization that those at the top FIFA, UEFA and others are all corrupt. Money is everything and fans are nothing. It's really depressing that it's come to this. I think this will be my last season following football. I am interested in seeing how the new Liverpool play but when it comes right down to it they are all just very  wealthy men who play football. It's going to be difficult finding the interest to watch them do their job every week. It's all really meh right now.

[GreatEx]

I think if I still lived in Europe and had enough spare time to attend sporting events, I would throw myself behind a lower league side (maybe Rochdale since they're non league now) and forget about the EPL for the most part. The buzz has definitely gone, only habit remains.

[Bend It Like Aurelio]

In this day and age, fans demand a lot of things. Owners put in more money into the team, yet keep ticket prices reasonable. Players should only come because they want to be here, but if they are not performing to standards they must be sold for newer and better (world class these days) right away before it’s too late. And yet when said players leave they must leave for pre-approved destinations.

It’s all getting a bit too hypocritical. Think we either go back to our socialist roots, or we embrace capitalism for what it is. Don’t think we can have both.

[Historical Fool]

In this day and age, fans demand a lot of things. Owners put in more money into the team, yet keep ticket prices reasonable. Players should only come because they want to be here, but if they are not performing to standards they must be sold for newer and better (world class these days) right away before it’s too late. And yet when said players leave they must leave for pre-approved destinations.

It’s all getting a bit too hypocritical. Think we either go back to our socialist roots, or we embrace capitalism for what it is. Don’t think we can have both.

The demanding bit is the one that grates the most. JWH and FSG come in for massive and unwarranted abuse on these boards for the reason that they are perceived (whether rightly or wrongly) for being unwilling to spend their money to make a poster happy. In what other field is there an expectation or even grounds to demand that someone else spends their money for the pleasure of people who don’t even have any discernible stake in the club?

Not having a go - this is an issue with modern football and at some level permeates all football support bases. But this is LFC and we can and should be better.

[Titi Camara]

In this day and age, fans demand a lot of things. Owners put in more money into the team, yet keep ticket prices reasonable. Players should only come because they want to be here, but if they are not performing to standards they must be sold for newer and better (world class these days) right away before it’s too late. And yet when said players leave they must leave for pre-approved destinations.

It’s all getting a bit too hypocritical. Think we either go back to our socialist roots, or we embrace capitalism for what it is. Don’t think we can have both.

I think you are painting the actions of a few across an entire fan base. You are also doing it for two conflicting stances.

Those fans demanding we spend, spend spend are the ones who don't give a fuck about morality, politics or socialism.

Those fans decrying the actions of players moving to KSA, calling out their greed and the hypocrisy of their stance on social and minority issues, are the ones who do give a fuck about morality, politics and socialism.

Whist there will be an intersection of these two groups, it will be a small minority.

The fanbase is not one big homogenous group, it contains many different viewpoints and just because some of them conflict, does not mean we should throw our collective identity out the window, because you or anyone else, isn't comfortable with the complexity or conflict.

[GreatEx]

. In what other field is there an expectation or even grounds to demand that someone else spends their money for the pleasure of people who don’t even have any discernible stake in the club?

The entertainment industry, of which football is a part?

I'm playing devil's advocate to a degree here, because I don't want a sugar daddy pumping money recklessly into our club and do want the club to be self sustaining,  although I am sympathetic to the idea that the huge capital growth FSG have attained through LFC morally obliges them to maintain it to an optimum standard.

[Bend It Like Aurelio]

I think you are painting the actions of a few across an entire fan base. You are also doing it for two conflicting stances.

Those fans demanding we spend, spend spend are the ones who don't give a fuck about morality, politics or socialism.

Those fans decrying the actions of players moving to KSA, calling out their greed and the hypocrisy of their stance on social and minority issues, are the ones who do give a fuck about morality, politics and socialism.

Whist there will be an intersection of these two groups, it will be a small minority.

The fanbase is not one big homogenous group, it contains many different viewpoints and just because some of them conflict, does not mean we should throw our collective identity out the window, because you or anyone else, isn't comfortable with the complexity or conflict.

While I don’t have a Venn Diagram of how many fans are in that intersection, to me it feels like more than a small minority. Certainly, the net spend brigade do take up a large majority of our fan base judging by the noise the last two summers, and the outrage over Henderson moving to Saudi also take up a similar amount of oxygen.

It’s not about painting the fan base with a broad stroke, it is pretty obvious that a large part of our fan base are not happy with our current predicament on many levels. Which in fact I believe is taking us away from our identity as a whole. There are fans out there who bash Henderson for his moral stance yet are happy we got £40 million for Fabinho. Is that all of our fans? Of course not, but again I feel like it isn’t a minority there. Then there are those who are glad we got rid of both and are demanding the owners splash out for the biggest names out there to replace them or else. Only a small minority out there are celebrating the work these players have done for us, it certainly doesn’t feel like us at all.

I am just not happy about the sense of entitlement that has been emanating from the fan base these days, that is all.

[Titi Camara]

I am just not happy about the sense of entitlement that has been emanating from the fan base these days, that is all.

Completely agree, social media tends to amplify these sorts of opinions though (anything on the extreme end of the spectrum), so it can seem like a majority when it's in fact a very vocal minority.

[classycarra]

Am I imagining it, or are a large proportion of the players moving to saudi in this first wave from countries that lived under a dictatorship in living memory in that country (not necessarily for the players). I haven't done any research yet, but off the top of my head I can think of players from Brazil, Portugal, Serbia/Croatia (Yugo) - maybe more to come.

Can't really place (god save the blah singing) Gerrard and Hendo to be fair. The Senegalese lads aren't helping me out here either. I guess there's the shared religion pattern for some of the other notable players too like Kante and Benzea.

[AndyInVA]

But meanwhile they're exposed all elite footballers loyalty and what their main aim is

Money. I always understood that not everyone who plays for us grew up wearing LFC pyjamas and all other clubs players the same

But this shit has all kind of hammered it home. Reminded me I'm watching a load of millionaires play football.

On top of all the Man City Newcastle stuff I don't see a way back for my head and football. Maybe once the season starts everything in my head will reset

Yes. I maybe need turning off and on again

sheesh. I've known most players wanted nothing but money since about 2000. I think for a lot of our fans we used to respect Carrra and Gerrard for staying with and being the backbone of the club we support, because they did not leave for greener pastures and were truly one club players.

The shine on both those ex players has very much dimmed.

Now I look at players and you can see that money is not a motivating factor for only the occasional player.

The only ones I can think of at the moment is Sadio Mane, who although makes millions does seem to have a genuine moral code about how he spends his money. Craig Bellamy is another, although now it appears was quite ill fated how he spent his money. There must be others I cannot think of.

I just think players reflect society, they want to make money and live as well as they can. No much how much anyone has, 'more of it' is always attractive. I think the age of footballers who seemed to 'look like us, think like us', left a long time ago.

[ScouserAtHeart]

Kylian Mbappé: Al-Hilal submit world-record €300m bid for PSG forward

Saudi Arabian club act after Mbappé left out of PSG tour
PSG want to sell Mbappé unless he extends contract

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2023/jul/24/kylian-mbappe-al-hilal-world-record-300m-bid-psg-saudi-arabia

[HomesickRed]

Kylian Mbappé: Al-Hilal submit world-record €300m bid for PSG forward

Saudi Arabian club act after Mbappé left out of PSG tour
PSG want to sell Mbappé unless he extends contract

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2023/jul/24/kylian-mbappe-al-hilal-world-record-300m-bid-psg-saudi-arabia

Football as a competitive sport is in real danger of dying without so much as a wimper.
Discuss......

[stewil007]

Football as a competitive sport is in real danger of dying without so much as a wimper.
Discuss......

heard talk of £700m a year for the player himself.......footballt has not just eaten itself, but shat itself out too

[demain]

I still strongly feel that this is just a phase, the PIF doesn't have limitless reserves and the fund's mandate is not to keep throwing money down the drain. The shock and awe tactics will work for the short-term creating positive publicity for Saudi, with the underlying message being that they are open for investment to western businesses, however, ultimately they will have to pull the plug on the extravagance. This is essentially a bet on the kingdom's future public finances, they can only play with house money so long. It won't take them a while to pull the plug if this continues to bleed money.

Their league cannot become self-sustaining as it stands, and this bet will go the same way the Russian and Chinese attempted expansion into football. That doesn't mean that we won't see some bizarre deals over the next couple of years (with the eventual realisation from some European clubs, players, and agents that the mooted amounts due are not forthcoming). There are already some glaring red flags with non-payment of salaries and bonuses in that league.

[Black Bull Nova]

I still strongly feel that this is just a phase, the PIF doesn't have limitless reserves and the fund's mandate is not to keep throwing money down the drain. The shock and awe tactics will work for the short-term creating positive publicity for Saudi, with the underlying message being that they are open for investment to western businesses, however, ultimately they will have to pull the plug on the extravagance. This is essentially a bet on the kingdom's future public finances, they can only play with house money so long. It won't take them a while to pull the plug if this continues to bleed money.

Their league cannot become self-sustaining as it stands, and this bet will go the same way the Russian and Chinese attempted expansion into football. That doesn't mean that we won't see some bizarre deals over the next couple of years (with the eventual realisation from some European clubs, players, and agents that the mooted amounts due are not forthcoming). There are already some glaring red flags with non-payment of salaries and bonuses in that league.

I agree, I think they are making poor decisions, championship manager type decisions froma 14 year old, buy Ronaldo, everyone in this country knew he was finished (as are Mahrez, Henderson, Benzema, Kante etc, possibly Fab as well), Nevez is the only UK player they have bought that will be missed in 18 months time, even then not that much.

[Mister Flip Flop]

This is only the beginning. They'll be in the champions league by 2025 or offer teams ridiculous sums to enter their own version mark my words. All that matters in football is money now and they've more of it than everyone else put together. What they did to golf was only a test run for the worlds biggest sport.

It's over for the game we once loved.

[Black Bull Nova]

This is only the beginning. They'll be in the champions league by 2025 or offer teams ridiculous sums to enter their own version mark my words. All that matters in football is money now and they've more of it than everyone else put together. What they did to golf was only a test run for the worlds biggest sport.

It's over for the game we once loved.

In think Golf, Tennis, Athletics etc are different because they are individual events, golf even moreso because older players still play the game. Buy the best 10 players and you have bought the game (or at least ruined it)


It is not the same with football. Most people who watch the game in this country hardly see Benzema, Mbappe etc, less so the South American players. Football has a history of players leaving this league, John Charles, Jimmy Greaves, Kevin Keegan, Grame Souness, Ian Rush, Gary Linekar, Laurie Cunningham etc near the top of their game with a barely noticable impact on the game.


They really will have to spend a vast fortune to get a decent share of the cake and even then it is only temporary, Salah was viewed as one of the best in the world a couple of years ago, that mantle has shifted even since then. They may buy a name like Salah but someone else will step into the shoes. It's not like buying Tiger Woods or Roger Federer.


As long as they keep buying the past, we will get by (and be richer), only when they buy the present in significant numbers (ie Haaland, Alexander-Arnold, Rice, say, will it make a sizeable dent. I doubt those sorts of players want to give up their ambitions to play in a league that will never really take off without billions a year thrown at it.


Look at Ettifaq


Manager, Steven Gerrard, big name, failed manager in England


When I see their squad list I see 33 players I have never heard of plus a (soon to be) washed up Jordan Henderson


Al-Nassr I see a manager who I don't really know with a washed up Ronaldo and 32 other non-notables


Al-Ahli have no manager as yet, Mahrez, Firmino (who we regarded as retiring if we are honest), Mendy plus another 31 non-notables

Al-Hilal have Jorge Jesus, Koulibaly, Neves and another 27 non-notables.


Anyone of those teams I'd gladly play with our reserves.


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[Bobsackamano]

In think Golf, Tennis, Athletics etc are different because they are individual events, golf even moreso because older players still play the game. Buy the best 10 players and you have bought the game (or at least ruined it)


It is not the same with football. Most people who watch the game in this country hardly see Benzema, Mbappe etc, less so the South American players. Football has a history of players leaving this league, John Charles, Jimmy Greaves, Kevin Keegan, Grame Souness, Ian Rush, Gary Linekar, Laurie Cunningham etc near the top of their game with a barely noticable impact on the game.


They really will have to spend a vast fortune to get a decent share of the cake and even then it is only temporary, Salah was viewed as one of the best in the world a couple of years ago, that mantle has shifted even since then. They may buy a name like Salah but someone else will step into the shoes. It's not like buying Tiger Woods or Roger Federer.


As long as they keep buying the past, we will get by (and be richer), only when they buy the present in significant numbers (ie Haaland, Alexander-Arnold, Rice, say, will it make a sizeable dent. I doubt those sorts of players want to give up their ambitions to play in a league that will never really take off without billions a year thrown at it.


Look at Ettifaq


Manager, Steven Gerrard, big name, failed manager in England


When I see their squad list I see 33 players I have never heard of plus a (soon to be) washed up Jordan Henderson


Al-Nassr I see a manager who I don't really know with a washed up Ronaldo and 32 other non-notables


Al-Ahli have no manager as yet, Mahrez, Firmino (who we regarded as retiring if we are honest), Mendy plus another 31 non-notables

Al-Hilal have Jorge Jesus, Koulibaly, Neves and another 27 non-notables.


Anyone of those teams I'd gladly play with our reserves.


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Excellent post. Those other sports are individual players, build a golf  course or tennis stadium (?) and get the best players in the world to play and you can rightfully claim to host a top grade golf or tennis event. Football is about teams, the history, the emotional investment people have in clubs, history and rivalries. That simply cannot be bought in the same way.

If they think they can do the same with footy as golf and tennis or formula 1 then they have miscalculated badly. Players come and go, and they come and go quickly, but teams and leagues are the bedrock and what people really invest emotional value in.

Let them spunk billions, it won't get them anywhere in the end.

[elsewhere]

I'm sorry but football is dead if Mbappe goes to Al Hilal but alive when he plays for PSG or Real Madrid?
Nah, fuck all three in no particular order.

[sinnermichael]

Remember Neville and Carragher making the ESL out to be the root of all evil?

What a time to be alive.

[McSquared]

This is only the beginning. They'll be in the champions league by 2025 or offer teams ridiculous sums to enter their own version mark my words. All that matters in football is money now and they've more of it than everyone else put together. What they did to golf was only a test run for the worlds biggest sport.

It's over for the game we once loved.

Why would they be in UEFA competition? They are part of AFC…. Brown envelopes aside