Topic: New Annie road, small to medium expansion plans shelved.

[Red Beret]

From a selfish point of view, I really hope a train station gets sorted as part of the plans because the traffic before and after games is getting worse each season, especially for mid-week games.

I don't know much about the historical rail line through the area, but you could put back the old Walton and Anfield station from the Canada Dock Line.  Looking at Google Map it would still be a good mile from Anfield though.  For several tens of thousands of people that works out as a lot of trains!

[CraigDS]

The nearest place, with land for a station, would probably be down Utting where The Clarence pub is (it’s not falling down).

[GoldenGloves25]

I found it interesting that they planned to cut off Anfield Road completely,  I always though they could just build over the road and tunnel it just like the mancs have at OT.

[Lush is the best medicine...]

From a selfish point of view, I really hope a train station gets sorted as part of the plans because the traffic before and after games is getting worse each season, especially for mid-week games.

a train station with a massive car park as one of the stops would be grand

[RSoares21]

From a selfish point of view, I really hope a train station gets sorted as part of the plans because the traffic before and after games is getting worse each season, especially for mid-week games.

Traffic for midweek games is due to not having any trains leaving after the game. If the national rail put a couple trains back down heading off at 10:30pm then it would clear up a lot of traffic.

[Fromola]

The article gives good detail about just how inadequate the ground is capacity wise for the sheer number of people who want to watch Liverpool.

We need up to be up with Barca/Real/Bayern/United/Dortmund capacity wise. Another 6 or 7 thousand to get in line with Arsenal and Spurs isn't going to touch the sides.

The club can't fulfill its potential when we have whole generations of fans and tens of thousands who can't hope to get a ticket for a weekend league match, let alone a big game.

We're literally the hardest club in the world to get tickets for.

[devlin_adl]

From James Pearce's latest Q&A on the Athletic:

Q: Hi James. How big do you expect anfield to be once the anfield road end is redeveloped?

A: Hi Rhys. It depends on what design they eventually go for. I've heard that one would bring capacity up to around 60,000, another would take it to 61,500. The planning process and public consultation period will be lengthy as there are bound to be concerns over traffic/congestion/public transport, which will need to be dealt with.

[Machae]

Wasnt the lapsed planning for 58,500 capacity. I guess around 61k is where the club wants to be, although I know this will disappoint quite a few fans out there who were hoping for something closer to 65k or over

[CraigDS]

Wasnt the lapsed planning for 58,500 capacity. I guess around 61k is where the club wants to be, although I know this will disappoint quite a few fans out there who were hoping for something closer to 65k or over

We’re never getting 65k from just a new Anny Rd, it would need to hold about 20,000 to do so.

[Eeyore]

The nearest place, with land for a station, would probably be down Utting where The Clarence pub is (it’s not falling down).

There are 3 options by the clarence, Pinehurst Avenue or stanley park avenue for a station. The problem is that the line is already extensively used for freight services with Peel looking to increase the number of freight services.

[Machae]

We’re never getting 65k from just a new Anny Rd, it would need to hold about 20,000 to do so.

Yeah, just some maybe disappointed with the news of it only being increased to around 61k, which is still great news but I guess some were probably jumping the gun a bit.

[CraigDS]

There are 3 options by the clarence, Pinehurst Avenue or stanley park avenue for a station. The problem is that the line is already extensively used for freight services with Peel looking to increase the number of freight services.

Stanley Park Avenue would have crowds walking down small residential streets. Same for Pinehurst for a chunk of it. Utting makes the most sense personally.

[an tha]

Could they reopen and use the old Tuebrook station by Newsham Park?

15/20 min walk from ground.

[Eeyore]

Stanley Park Avenue would have crowds walking down small residential streets. Same for Pinehurst for a chunk of it. Utting makes the most sense personally.

None of them are ideal. I think the biggest issue with the Clarence site is how narrow the road under the bridge is. I think you would have to make compulsory purchase orders on a number of properties and make the bridge four lanes plus pavements wide at least.

It is a bit further but maybe the site with the most potential might be Walton Lane. There is plenty of space for a station and you could have a path through the park. 

[Eeyore]

Could they reopen and use the old Tuebrook station by Newsham Park?

15/20 min walk from ground.

It is only slightly closer than Lime Street though.

[an tha]

It is only slightly closer than Lime Street though.

I see your point, just thinking it's a good spot, the bridge and that is still all up on west derby road and west derby road, sheil road etc is a good out to rest of city and places like west derby, kenny old swan etc.

[TepidT2O]

Yeah, just some maybe disappointed with the news of it only being increased to around 61k, which is still great news but I guess some were probably jumping the gun a bit.

It’s about the maximum you could get from that stand (regardless of cost)

[CraigDS]

None of them are ideal. I think the biggest issue with the Clarence site is how narrow the road under the bridge is. I think you would have to make compulsory purchase orders on a number of properties and make the bridge four lanes plus pavements wide at least.

There are no houses to the left hand side (walking away from the stadium, pub side) so could easily widen it there with no issue.

[CHOPPER]

The city, and the access to our ground and beyond, requires a circular tram link that captures two major routes that covers both the north end and the  south end and not just two destinations. Be that our ground or theirs, wherever they may end up.


The sooner this myopic and small minded council see and learn that they, need to think big, and aspire to be something more than a two sporting team transport link and use this as an opportunity to open the city to its residents and its visitors, the better.


The fat chippy titted twat.

[an tha]

The city, and the access to our ground and beyond, requires a circular tram link that captures two major routes that covers both the north end and the  south end and not just two destinations. Be that our ground or theirs, wherever they may end up.


The sooner this myopic and small minded council see and learn that they, need to think big, and aspire to be something more than a two sporting team transport link and use this as an opportunity to open the city to its residents and its visitors, the better.


The fat chippy titted twat.

Was it 'merseytram' they looked at but jibbed about 20 years ago....seem to recall that was that kind of idea.

[Eeyore]

There are no houses to the left hand side (walking away from the stadium, pub side) so could easily widen it there with no issue.

If you widen the bridge the problem would be that you are seriously encroaching on the land you would build the actual station on. To make it worthwhile you need space to be able to dump a large number of passengers per train. If you take an overview of a main line train station the amount of land required and the actual length of the platforms is pretty mind blowing.

The other problem is that it is a single line each way which means you can't stack trains to be able to control arrival and departure times.

[Eeyore]

The city, and the access to our ground and beyond, requires a circular tram link that captures two major routes that covers both the north end and the  south end and not just two destinations. Be that our ground or theirs, wherever they may end up.


The sooner this myopic and small minded council see and learn that they, need to think big, and aspire to be something more than a two sporting team transport link and use this as an opportunity to open the city to its residents and its visitors, the better.


The fat chippy titted twat.

We already had that and more though Chops pre Beeching.

The problem is that there has always been very little demand to travel from north to south. The vast majority of travel in the city is in and out of town.

[Machae]

Doesnt any capacity over 60k warrant infrastructure upgrades? So either way, rail would need to be sorted?

[CraigDS]

If you widen the bridge the problem would be that you are seriously encroaching on the land you would build the actual station on. To make it worthwhile you need space to be able to dump a large number of passengers per train. If you take an overview of a main line train station the amount of land required and the actual length of the platforms is pretty mind blowing.

The other problem is that it is a single line each way which means you can't stack trains to be able to control arrival and departure times.

There is loads of land on that corner of Utting Ave and Cherry Lane. Remember it from when I was a kid going the Clarence, and if you take a look on satellite images you can see how much there is behind the pub.

[CraigDS]

Doesnt any capacity over 60k warrant infrastructure upgrades? So either way, rail would need to be sorted?

Nah, over 60k doesn’t automatically mean a need for rail.

[Eeyore]

Doesnt any capacity over 60k warrant infrastructure upgrades? So either way, rail would need to be sorted?

That is pretty fluid though.

One of the easiest ways to overcome the infrastructure problems is a slower arrival and dispersion of fans. Historically fans have pretty much arrived and left at the same time. That however has changed. The more lounges, outlets and corporate facilities you have the less infrastructure you need.

Mid week games will always be a challenge but there is no reason why you cannot have a different capacity for weekend games compared to mid week games.

[Eeyore]

There is loads of land on that corner of Utting Ave and Cherry Lane. Remember it from when I was a kid going the Clarence, and if you take a look on satellite images you can see how much there is behind the pub.

The major consideration is the length of the platforms though Craig. Given that it is a major freight line and the infrequency off the slots that you could schedule trains you would need trains with a lot of carriages to make it viable. That means massive platforms. Look at the footprint of any major station and it is scary.

Ideally you would have a dedicated line with very frequent trains similar to a tube system. That simply isn't going to happen though because you haven't got the footfall apart from match days and you above all you are encroaching on an existing freight line.

[Red Beret]

Was it 'merseytram' they looked at but jibbed about 20 years ago....seem to recall that was that kind of idea.

Tbf the labour government jibbed it off, complained about the price increases. We'd just started buying track as well.

[CraigDS]

The major consideration is the length of the platforms though Craig. Given that it is a major freight line and the infrequency off the slots that you could schedule trains you would need trains with a lot of carriages to make it viable. That means massive platforms. Look at the footprint of any major station and it is scary.

Ideally you would have a dedicated line with very frequent trains similar to a tube system. That simply isn't going to happen though because you haven't got the footfall apart from match days and you above all you are encroaching on an existing freight line.

The freight trains don’t run that often. You could easily avoid having them around peak football and/or work times.

Plus could you not still have long trains but double fill them, I.e fill front half, pull it forward, fill back half? Not ideal but better than nothing and would be more cost effective for the area than a fucking huge station used at capacity only 20 times a year.

[CraigDS]

Mid week games will always be a challenge but there is no reason why you cannot have a different capacity for weekend games compared to mid week games.

Can’t see the club being willing to build a bigger stadium then leaving a chunk of it empty for midweek PL (could be a big game) or premium CL games.

Imagine how shite it would be in there for a CL semi final with thousands of seats forced to be left empty.

[Eeyore]

The freight trains don’t run that often. You could easily avoid having them around peak football and/or work times.

Plus could you not still have long trains but double fill them, I.e fill front half, pull it forward, fill back half? Not ideal but better than nothing and would be more cost effective for the area than a fucking huge station used at capacity only 20 times a year.

Peel are looking to upgrade the line so that 48 trains per day will be able to enter Seaforth container base. As for avoiding certain times that isn't as easy at it sounds because you have two time dependent scenarios firstly catching tides for the ships and the number of just in time deliveries that use the line.

[CraigDS]

Peel are looking to upgrade the line so that 48 trains per day will be able to enter Seaforth container base. As for avoiding certain times that isn't as easy at it sounds because you have two time dependent scenarios firstly catching tides for the ships and the number of just in time deliveries that use the line.

I’m not sure slight delays around football games or at peak hours into the city for residents would really have much of a hit on JIT deliveries or deliveries to/from the ships (given there are time scales for containers to be delivered before shipping, and various import issues when they arrive). We’re not talking a particularly big line here which takes ages to get around.

[Eeyore]

I’m not sure slight delays around football games or at peak hours into the city for residents would really have much of a hit on JIT deliveries or deliveries to/from the ships (given there are time scales for containers to be delivered before shipping, and various import issues when they arrive). We’re not talking a particularly big line here which takes ages to get around.

The beauty of a freight only line though is the fact that it isn't affected by rush hour or football matches. Modern manufacturing operates around the clock with very little on site warehousing. There is no way a factory is going to pause it's production to accommodate a Football match.

The biggest issue though is who is going to pay for the line to be adapted for passenger use and who is going to pay for the stations. I can't see FSG putting their hands in their pockets can you ?

[CraigDS]

The beauty of a freight only line though is the fact that it isn't affected by rush hour or football matches. Modern manufacturing operates around the clock with very little on site warehousing. There is no way a factory is going to pause it's production to accommodate a Football match.

As said, I honestly don’t see some limiting around matches (which are not at peak production times anyway) or clever scheduling around peak rush hour times is really going to hit businesses.

The biggest issue though is who is going to pay for the line to be adapted for passenger use and who is going to pay for the stations. I can't see FSG putting their hands in their pockets can you ?

Well it only works if it works for the local community. If the only case for it is football then it won’t happen.

[Eeyore]

Well it only works if it works for the local community. If the only case for it is football then it won’t happen.

I love the rank hypocrisy, you didn't seem that arsed about the local community when you were defending the Club when it ran down the area to accelerate the redevelopment of the Main Stand.

Surely if the redevelopment of the Bootle line will help the Club generate a bigger match day income then there is a case for the Club contributing to the costs. Or does it only work for the community if it the Club doesn't have to contribute.

[CraigDS]

I love the rank hypocrisy, you didn't seem that arsed about the local community when you were defending the Club when it ran down the area to accelerate the redevelopment of the Main Stand.

Twisting things a little here. I defended the number of properties the club owned and tinned up (17, a good chunk of these bought  after the area was already predominantly like that). I said the council and private companies were more to blame given they owned hundreds and hundreds of boarded up houses.

I did say the club had a hand in that though, but I rightly pointed to the fact these were bought and boarded up years before the current owners, and also before the previous yanks too. So was a tad harsh, as you were doing, to lay the blame at the club as it currently stood given it was an inherited problem and one they were trying to resolve.

Surely if the redevelopment of the Bootle line will help the Club generate a bigger match day income then there is a case for the Club contributing to the costs. Or does it only work for the community if it the Club doesn't have to contribute.

I never suggested the club shouldn’t contribute. However it doesn’t work if the club is expected to be the only ones paying for it. Simply wouldn’t happen. It needs a business case that exists beyond use by passengers 19-23 times a year.

Then again you knew what I meant with both points already as we’ve discussed this many times. 

[PaulD]

Sad to say the rank hypocrisy is with you Al - freshen your mind up, reboot and start thinking positively about how we can keep the 'upward spiral' moving in the best possible direction. You are a smart guy - put your talent to work in a constructive and cooperative manner.