Topic: Climate Emergency is already here. How much worse it gets is still up to us (?)

[Elzar]

They should protest somewhere more convenient where no one will notice them. That'll get everyone on board.

To be fair, it would probably leave them with more support than currently.

[CraigDS]

They should protest somewhere more convenient where no one will notice them. That'll get everyone on board.

You think they are getting "everyone on board" currently? If anything they're doing the complete opposite.

[CraigDS]

Funnily enough this sort of rhetoric from the people against the protests is pretty alienating itself.

to be honest it was more to wind up one certain poster who seems determined to call anyone who doesn't agree with them a Tory.

[Red Viper]

You think they are getting "everyone on board" currently? If anything they're doing the complete opposite.

Mate, you're calling them terrorists ffs so I doubt there's any answer I could give that's going to further this discussion in any helpful way.

[CraigDS]

Mate, you're calling them terrorists ffs so I doubt there's any answer I could give that's going to further this discussion in any helpful way.

...

to be honest it was more to wind up one certain poster who seems determined to call anyone who doesn't agree with them a Tory.

[El Lobo]

Its a tricky one, but the protests just don't really seem aimed at the people it should be aimed at. Thus just pissing off the general public. Correct me if I'm wrong, the whole protest is aimed at insulating every house in the country by 2030? I just don't get how this helps achieve that in any way.

[Elzar]

Its a tricky one, but the protests just don't really seem aimed at the people it should be aimed at. Thus just pissing off the general public. Correct me if I'm wrong, the whole protest is aimed at insulating every house in the country by 2030? I just don't get how this helps achieve that in any way.

The only reasoning I have seen is that it creates awareness to the general public. I just don't understand how they can't see that it also creates masses going against them too. Especially when they got on TV to make their point and the guy they sent on was a knob.

[Red-Soldier]

I agree with their cause, but I don't think their method of protest is good.  People are talking more about the road blocking than the actual cause itself.

It's difficult.

[Crumble]

If you get stuck in a huge motorway snarl-up caused by Insulate Britain, then this is the perfect opportunity to get your phone out and bang out a quick angry email to your MP, asking them to get off their collective government arses and initiate an emergency programme of improving insulation in every home and workplace in the UK. This is the fastest way of reducing our CO2 emissions as well as easing the impact of rising energy prices. It as also the fastest way of getting those heroes off the motorway for good.

[Red Viper]

If you get stuck in a huge motorway snarl-up caused by Insulate Britain, then this is the perfect opportunity to get your phone out and bang out a quick angry email to your MP, asking them to get off their collective government arses and initiate an emergency programme of improving insulation in every home and workplace in the UK. This is the fastest way of reducing our CO2 emissions as well as easing the impact of rising energy prices. It as also the fastest way of getting those heroes off the motorway for good.

Yeah but why do that when you can complain on the internet instead?

[Elzar]

If you get stuck in a huge motorway snarl-up caused by Insulate Britain, then this is the perfect opportunity to get your phone out and bang out a quick angry email to your MP, asking them to get off their collective government arses and initiate an emergency programme of improving insulation in every home and workplace in the UK. This is the fastest way of reducing our CO2 emissions as well as easing the impact of rising energy prices. It as also the fastest way of getting those heroes off the motorway for good.

Do you need to show it them to be able to get through and get to work after that?

[Red-Soldier]

If you get stuck in a huge motorway snarl-up caused by Insulate Britain, then this is the perfect opportunity to get your phone out and bang out a quick angry email to your MP, asking them to get off their collective government arses and initiate an emergency programme of improving insulation in every home and workplace in the UK. This is the fastest way of reducing our CO2 emissions as well as easing the impact of rising energy prices. It as also the fastest way of getting those heroes off the motorway for good.

Good point.

Yeah but why do that when you can complain on the internet instead?

Another good point.

We need action on climate now, not in a couple of years!

[CraigDS]

Have they been gluing themselves to the roads up in Glasgow? Directly hitting the ones who make these decisions?

[TSC]

Have they been gluing themselves to the roads up in Glasgow? Directly hitting the ones who make these decisions?

I’d imagine protesters may be unable to penetrate whatever protective perimeter is established up there (assuming there is one).

[killer-heels]

What surprises me is the amount of people dying in the back of the car whenever there is a protest.

[CraigDS]

What surprises me is the amount of people dying in the back of the car whenever there is a protest.

I mean sure, most stories will be made up - but surely 1 (if it happens) is 1 too many, right?

[Musketeer Gripweed]

Have they been gluing themselves to the roads up in Glasgow? Directly hitting the ones who make these decisions?

Glasgow seems to be dead just now. I got home in record time last night. It's weird. I was expecting it to be mental. Seen a few isolated protests an a couple of publicity stunts from Greta, but other than that it's business as normal round here, on the whole.

[CraigDS]

Glasgow seems to be dead just now. I got home in record time last night. It's weird. I was expecting it to be mental. Seen a few isolated protests an a couple of publicity stunts from Greta, but other than that it's business as normal round here, on the whole.

Strange. You'd expect popular routes around the city, blocking hotel workers getting to wherever these world leaders are staying, on routes from the airports to those hotels, etc. etc. would be great targets for these lot to glue themselves to the roads.

I imagine not as easy and hitting someone's holiday plans and no doubt would be dealt with much more severely.

[Andy82lfc]

I imagine not as easy and hitting someone's holiday plans and no doubt would be dealt with much more severely.

Not if you have anything to do with it by sounds of it

[CraigDS]

Not if you have anything to do with it by sounds of it

That much is true 

[Red Viper]

Strange. You'd expect popular routes around the city, blocking hotel workers getting to wherever these world leaders are staying, on routes from the airports to those hotels, etc. etc. would be great targets for these lot to glue themselves to the roads.

I imagine not as easy and hitting someone's holiday plans and no doubt would be dealt with much more severely.

Seems counterintuitive to prevent world leaders from attending a conference which is taking place to help the cause you're fighting for?

[Elzar]

Glasgow seems to be dead just now. I got home in record time last night. It's weird. I was expecting it to be mental. Seen a few isolated protests an a couple of publicity stunts from Greta, but other than that it's business as normal round here, on the whole.

Craig says they are terrorists, so probably terrified of going to Glasgow after the last time a terrorist was there. 

[Musketeer Gripweed]

Strange. You'd expect popular routes around the city, blocking hotel workers getting to wherever these world leaders are staying, on routes from the airports to those hotels, etc. etc. would be great targets for these lot to glue themselves to the roads.

I imagine not as easy and hitting someone's holiday plans and no doubt would be dealt with much more severely.

There is an airport in Glasgow that does foreign trips as well, you know.

Maybe I've just been lucky, but I haven't heard any complaints about massive hold ups.

I'm flying from Edinburgh in January, I should be OK by then.

[CraigDS]

Seems counterintuitive to prevent world leaders from attending a conference which is taking place to help the cause you're fighting for?

I mean lets be honest, most of the real work has been done by delegates in the weeks and months prior and this is just a big PR event.

[Crumble]

Having watched most of the COP-26 opening ceremony, I'm surprised at some of the imagery being used to illustrate climate change: they just aren't being scary enough.

I think they should lose those pictures of polar bears staring wistfully out over melting ice-flows, and have a few more of people screaming in agony as they are consumed by burning forests or swept away by fearsome floodwaters full of dangerous debris.

If they must have polar bears, show them rampaging inland among human settlements tearing cute babies to pieces in their madness of starvation.

The organisers should be graphically illustrating what +1.5c looks like (awful), then +1.8c, then +2c (too horrible to contemplate), then the currently projected +3.7c (apocalypse).

[Andy82lfc]

Having watched most of the COP-26 opening ceremony, I'm surprised at some of the imagery being used to illustrate climate change: they just aren't being scary enough.

I think they should lose those pictures of polar bears staring wistfully out over melting ice-flows, and have a few more of people screaming in agony as they are consumed by burning forests or swept away by fearsome floodwaters full of dangerous debris.

If they must have polar bears, show them rampaging inland among human settlements tearing cute babies to pieces in their madness of starvation.

The organisers should be graphically illustrating what +1.5c looks like (awful), then +1.8c, then +2c (too horrible to contemplate), then the currently projected +3.7c (apocalypse).

This is so true. I mean it would be like Live Aid showing bustling market places full of local delicacies and photography of the Serengeti.

[jonnypb]

They should protest somewhere more convenient where no one will notice them. That'll get everyone on board.

Yeah cause protesting in the middle of a motorway is really going to inconvenience an MP 

Why aren't these people protesting in a place where MPs will take notice?  Why aren't they gluing themselves to buildings hosting COP26?  Why aren't they targeting MPs at their place of work?

The only thing they've done so far is to target Joe Public and piss off Joe Public which is alienating people from their cause.

Strange. You'd expect popular routes around the city, blocking hotel workers getting to wherever these world leaders are staying, on routes from the airports to those hotels, etc. etc. would be great targets for these lot to glue themselves to the roads.

I imagine not as easy and hitting someone's holiday plans and no doubt would be dealt with much more severely.

That would require these protestors to have more than 2 brain cells, something which they seem to be lacking!

[Red-Soldier]

Around 150 Extinction Rebellion activists blocked Waterloo Street outside J.P Morgan’s Glasgow offices. Protesters banged drums and chanted slogans highlighting the bank’s continued investment in fossil fuels as a sizeable police presence watched on.

The protest, dubbed the ‘trillion dollar bash’ then marched through busy streets and past Morgan Stanley’s offices before a wall of police blocked it from crossing the M8 motorway about 10 minutes from the SEC, where Cop26 is being held

[lobsterboy]

I see the terrorists have blocked roads around Manchester airport today. I go on my first holiday in over 2 years next week, with my gf who is traveling to see her sister she's seen once in that time, and they'll be getting dragged the fuck out the way if they block us getting the airport.

Holiday destination Clarkson Island...

[Robinred]

Sunak on Government’s intention to ensure all firms create a ‘detailed, deliverable plan’ by 2023:

“We will move towards making it mandatory...”- the very definition of weasel words.

[CraigDS]

Holiday destination Clarkson Island...

Italy. But sure, yeah.

[lobsterboy]

Italy. But sure, yeah.

I'm only jesting mate, hope you got away ok.

[Elmo!]

[Sudden Death Draft Loser]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-59165781

[Red-Soldier]

Climate misinformation on Facebook ‘increasing substantially’, study says

A new analysis reveals that thousands of climate misinformation posts received up to 1.36m views everyday

The scale of climate misinformation on Facebook is “staggering” and “increasing quite substantially”, a new analysis of thousands of posts has found.

A report released on Thursday by the Real Facebook Oversight Board, an independent watchdog group, and the environmental non-profit Stop Funding Heat, analyzed a dataset of more than 195 Facebook pages and groups. Researchers found an estimated 45,000 posts downplaying or denying the climate crisis, which have received a combined total of between 818,000 and 1.36m views.

The study’s release coincides with the Cop26 climate summit in Glasgow and it urges governments to seriously consider the role of climate misinformation on social media in derailing the battle to reduce greenhouse gas emissions.

“This is where the ambitions of Cop26 and the revelations of the Facebook Papers collide, with our data showing Facebook is among the world’s biggest purveyors of climate disinformation,” researchers said.

The study analyzed 195 pages known to distribute misinformation about the climate crisis using Facebook’s analytics tool, CrowdTangle. Of those, 41 were considered “single issue” pages. With names like “Climate Change is Natural”, “Climate Change is Crap” and “Climate Realism”, these groups primarily shared memes denying climate change exists and deriding politicians attempting to address it through legislation.

Those that were not “single issue” groups included pages from figures like the rightwing politician Marjorie Taylor Greene, which posted misleading articles and disinformation about the climate crisis.

This “rampant” spread of climate misinformation is getting substantially worse, said Sean Buchan, the research and partnerships manager for Stop Funding Heat. Interactions per post in its dataset have increased 76.7% in the past year, the report found.

“If it continues to increase at this rate, this can cause significant harm in the real world,” he said.

A spokesman for Facebook took issue with the methodology of the study, suggesting not all posts flagged in the report represented disinformation.

“We’re focused on reducing actual climate misinformation on our platform, which is why we partner with a global network of factcheckers and reduce the distribution of anything they rate as false or misleading and reject any ads that have been debunked,” he said.

Facebook previously stated it continues to counteract the spread of misinformation by flagging climate information and referring users to its Climate Change Science Center, which contains data from credible sources on the climate crisis.

On Tuesday, Facebook’s vice-president of global affairs, Nick Clegg, announced that the center would expand to include more countries and information labels, which it adds to posts about the climate crisis for additional context.

By Facebook’s own count, the Climate Change Science Center receives about 100,000 daily visits globally – a fraction of the number of users who view climate misinformation, according to the study. Facebook has 2.9 billion monthly active users.

As the Cop 26 climate summit continues, activists are calling on the US Congress, the UK parliament and the EU parliament to pass legislation targeting Facebook’s massive power in light of its inability to stem climate misinformation.

“Facebook cannot and will not police themselves,” the Real Facebook Oversight Board said in a statement. “We need real, independent, transparent outside oversight and regulation and an investigation into all of Facebook’s activities – including the dangerous spread of climate disinformation.”

Misinformation on Facebook – about climate change and other issues – is largely driven by a small number of sources. The study released on Thursday found 78% of the advertising spending identified came from just seven pages, all of which were flagged one year ago in a previous report. Facebook has previously declined to remove the pages.

Facebook has long been criticized for the spread of climate misinformation on its platforms. In May 2021, progressive non-profit Avaaz reported an estimated 25m views of misinformation related to climate science and renewable energy within just 60 days in the US.

The latest study comes days after a separate report this week showed just 10 publishers are responsible for 69% of digital climate change denial content on Facebook, including more than 6,983 articles in the past year denying the climate crisis.

The problem is exacerbated by the unequal way in which Facebook moderates its content around the world, Buchan said.

Frances Haugen, a former Facebook employee turned whistleblower, recently revealed that 87% of Facebook’s spending on misinformation goes to English-language content, despite the fact that only 9% of its users are English speaking.

“That is a very high percentage, and it means there is a whole load of Facebook users being left out,” Buchan said. “There are whole populations who enjoy the Facebook service, and that Facebook is profiting from, while not actually taking care of them.”

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2021/nov/04/climate-misinformation-on-facebook-increasing-substantially-study-says

[Red Beret]

^^^ John Oliver touched on this a few weeks back. The misinformation from non English speaking social media is diabolical.

[Garrus]

Citizens are alarmed by the climate crisis, but most believe they are already doing more to preserve the planet than anyone else, including their government, and few are willing to make significant lifestyle changes, an international survey has found.

“The widespread awareness of the importance of the climate crisis illustrated in this study has yet to be coupled with a proportionate willingness to act,” the survey of 10 countries including the US, UK, France and Germany, observed.

Emmanuel Rivière, director of international polling at Kantar Public, said the survey, carried out in late September and published to coincide with the Cop26 climate conference in Glasgow, contained “a double lesson for governments”.

They have, first, “to measure up to people’s expectations,” Rivière said. “But they also have to persuade people not of the reality of the climate crisis – that’s done – but of what the solutions are, and of how we can fairly share responsibility for them.”

The survey found that 62% of people surveyed saw the climate crisis as the main environmental challenge the world was now facing, ahead of air pollution (39%), the impact of waste (38%) and new diseases (36%).

But when asked to rate their individual action against others’ such as governments, business and the media, people generally saw themselves as much more committed to the environment than others in their local community, or any institution.

About 36% rated themselves “highly committed” to preserving the planet, while only 21% felt the same was true of the media and 19% of local government. A mere 18% felt their local community was equally committed, with national governments (17%) and big corporations (13%) seen as even less engaged.

Respondents were also lukewarm about doing more themselves, citing a wide range of reasons. Most (76%) of those surveyed across the 10 countries said they would accept stricter environmental rules and regulations, but almost half (46%) felt that there was no real need for them to change their personal habits.

Only 51% said they would definitely take individual climate action, with 14% saying they would definitely not and 35% torn. People in Poland and Singapore (56%) were the most willing to act, and in Germany (44%) and the Netherlands (37%) the least.

The most common reasons given for not being willing to do more for the planet were “I feel proud of what I am currently doing” (74%), “There isn’t agreement among experts on the best solutions” (72%), and “I need more resources and equipment from public authorities” (69%).

Other reasons for not wanting to do more included “I can’t afford to make those efforts” (60%), “I lack information and guidance on what to do” (55%), “I don’t think individual efforts can really have an impact” (39%), “I believe environmental threats are overestimated” (35%) and “I don’t have the headspace to think about it” (33%).

Asked which actions to preserve the planet should be prioritised, moreover, people attributed more importance to measures that were already established habits, required less individual effort, or for which they bore little direct responsibility.

About 57%, for example, said that reducing waste and increasing recycling was “very important”. Other measures seen as priorities were reversing deforestation (54%), protecting endangered animal species (52%), building energy-efficient buildings (47%), and replacing fossil fuels with renewable energy (45%).

Respondents viewed measures likely to affect their own lifestyles, however, as significantly less important: reducing people’s energy consumption was seen as a priority by only 32%, while favouring public transport over cars (25%) and radically changing our agricultural model (24%) were similarly unpopular.

Only 23% felt that reducing plane travel and charging more for products that did not respect environmental norms were important to preserve the planet, while banning fossil fuel vehicles (22%) and reducing meat consumption (18%) and international trade (17%) were seen as even lower priorities.

“Citizens are undeniably concerned by the state of the planet, but these findings raise doubts regarding their level of commitment to preserving it,” the study said. “Rather than translating into a greater willingness to change their habits, citizens’ concerns are particularly focused on their negative assessment of governments’ efforts.”

Representative samples of more than 1,000 people were questioned in the US, UK, Spain, France, the Netherlands, Germany, Sweden, Poland, Singapore and New Zealand.

People gave themselves the highest score for commitment everywhere except Sweden, while only in Singapore and New Zealand were national governments seen as highly engaged. The gulf between citizens’ view of their own efforts (44%) and that of their government (16%) was highest in the UK.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/nov/07/few-willing-to-change-lifestyle-climate-survey

[thejbs]

The more inaction you see from leaders at this climate conference, the more I’m starting to think insulate Britain aren’t causing enough disruption. It feels like that scene in Austin Powers when the steamroller is slowing edging towards the henchman.

[Red-Soldier]

There are more delegates at COP26 associated with the fossil fuel industry than from any single country, analysis shared with the BBC shows.

Campaigners led by Global Witness assessed the participant list published by the UN at the start of this meeting.

They found that 503 people with links to fossil fuel interests had been accredited for the climate summit.

These delegates are said to lobby for oil and gas industries, and campaigners say they should be banned.

"The fossil fuel industry has spent decades denying and delaying real action on the climate crisis, which is why this is such a huge problem," says Murray Worthy from Global Witness.

"Their influence is one of the biggest reasons why 25 years of UN climate talks have not led to real cuts in global emissions."

About 40,000 people are attending the COP. Brazil has the biggest official team of negotiators according to UN data, with 479 delegates.

So what counts as a fossil fuel lobbyist?

Global Witness, Corporate Accountability and others who have carried out the analysis define a fossil fuel lobbyist as someone who is part of a delegation of a trade association or is a member of a group that represents the interests of oil and gas companies.

Overall, they identified 503 people employed by or associated with these interests at the summit.

They also found that:

    Fossil fuel lobbyists are members of 27 country delegations, including Canada and Russia
    The fossil fuel lobby at COP is larger than the combined total of the eight delegations from the countries worst affected by climate change in the past 20 years
    More than 100 fossil fuel companies are represented at COP, with 30 trade associations and membership organisations also present
    Fossil fuel lobbyists dwarf the UNFCCC's official indigenous constituency by about two to one

One of the biggest groups they identified was the International Emissions Trading Association (IETA) with 103 delegates in attendance, including three people from the oil and gas company BP.

According to Global Witness, IETA is backed by many major oil companies who promote offsetting and carbon trading as a way of allowing them to continue extracting oil and gas.

"This is an association that has an enormous number of fossil fuel company as its members. Its agenda is driven by fossil fuel companies and serves the interests of fossil fuel companies," Mr Worthy said.

"What we seeing is the putting forward of false solutions that appear to be climate action but actually preserve the status quo, and prevent us from taking the clear, simple actions to keep fossil fuels in the ground that we know are the real solutions to climate crisis."

The IETA says it exists to find the most efficient market-based means of driving down emissions. Members include fossil fuel companies but also a range of other businesses.

"We have law firms, we have project developers, the guys who are putting clean technology on the ground around the world, they're also members of our association as well," says Alessandro Vitelli, an IETA spokesman.

"We're not coming to a shuddering halt today and tomorrow, and suddenly there's going to be no emissions from the combustion of fossil fuels."

"There is a process to transition that's under way, and carbon markets are the best way to make sure that transition takes place."

Campaign groups argue that the World Health Organization didn't get serious about banning tobacco until all the lobbyists for the industry were banned from WHO meetings. They want the same treatment for oil and gas companies at COP.

"The likes of Shell and BP are inside these talks despite openly admitting to upping their production of fossil gas," said Pascoe Sabido of the Corporate Europe Observatory, who were also involved in the analysis.

"If we're serious about raising ambition, then fossil fuel lobbyists should be shut out of the talks."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-59199484

[Indomitable_Carp]

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/nov/07/few-willing-to-change-lifestyle-climate-survey

Which is exactly why the only way that this will ever work is when change is forced upon us by government policy.

And I would say it also lends some credence to the actions of groups like Insulate Britain.

People here are saying "how do they expect to win public support like that?!". When 74% of people "feel proud of what they are currently doing", and yet 46% think there is "No real need to change personal habits", only 32% are willing to decrease their energy consumption, only 25% are willing to favour public transport over cars and only 18% are willing to decrease their meat consumption, shows that you are onto a no-hoper if you are trying to win over public support for drastic changes. The disconnect is profound. The changes needed are inherently opposed to popular opinion - at least initially.