Topic: Coates confirmed

[Anywhichwayicant]

Must..............Play...................Coates.


It's all about the MPC baby!

[Gromit]

If we cannot give games to Coates, for fear of a mistake or two, then we might as well never change. The current CBs are not always perfect. It is quite annoying how we find every excuse in the world to keep Carra for every game, but can't see why we should play Coates.

Think those excuses are wearing extremely thin now, yesterday's Norwich attack was not exactly full of pacy little strikers giving our centrebacks the run-around.  We were struggling to win headers, something Carra and Skrtel could at least be relied on in the past but were exposed time and again.  And the famed organisational skills of Carra were completely AWOL as the defence looked shaky and now even Reina has been affected.  Much more of this and Reina will have to come off his line for everything like James had to, and the chances for mistakes only increases for a keeper.

We're a quarter of the season in and the defence has looked vulnerable through most of it, it's not just a bad spell anymore.

[Uruguayan36]

Probably Dalglish is afraid  of facing Carra...

[Fuzion6]

How Carragher now gets in the team is beyond me. Funny how no-one in the media mentions his form...

[Hannibal]

Pepe, the rest of the defense and Carragher will have to sort out their trust issues real quick or we'll have a gigantic clusterfuck on our hands.  If you can't count on your teammate to do their job properly do you do extra work to cover for them? throw in the extra hesitation and lack of focus on your own defensive duties etc. we have another Insua fiasco MK.2 on our hands.

Another thing our midfielders will be fucking dead from exhaustion by March if we keep defending this deep and still want to dominate possession in games.  The extra ground they'll have to make up field to support the attack along with the ground running back to help defend will have consequences.

[john_mac]

Probably Dalglish is afraid  of facing Carra...

fuck off. go on your own team's forum you know fuck all about Kenny Dalglish

[12Kings]

Thought it was funny how carra was giving belamy a little lecture coming off at halftime and belamy was just shrugging it aside.

[babraham]

There is, it is just ten yards further back than you expect it to be...

I'll get me Coates.

Last night, all I wanted to talk about was Carragher. I've had the chance to sleep on it and nothing has changed. He is absolutely the biggest concern in the team.

Regardless of which two of Agger/Skrtel/Coates/Kelly/Wilson play CB, a change has to be made. None of those are slow and I think the deep line is the single biggest thing holding us back at the moment. Playing higher up the pitch would not only help the defense but also the midfield and even the attack. With the possible exception of maybe 5% of games in the season, we absolutely need to be playing with a higher line and with Carra in the team, that seems like it will never happen.

It's sad when a servant to the club like Jamie needs to move aside but it happens to everyone. He'll still have his place in the squad. It's not like he'll never play another game but his time as first choice is over in my opinion and replacing him is probably overdue.

[hesbighesred]

I wish we realised Coates is not some inexperienced U19 player. He's shown his class in Copa America. Then we build the likes of Smalling and Jones up because they have played U21 football for England... If we cannot give games to Coates, for fear of a mistake or two, then we might as well never change. The current CBs are not always perfect. It is quite annoying how we find every excuse in the world to keep Carra for every game, but can't see why we should play Coates. And this when we have no problems to play Robinson, Kelly, Spearing, Shelvey and Henderson. With them we say we need to play them because they are the future. Which is true. We have nothing to worry about with Coates. He will not be without fault, but he will be good enough right now and he will improve.

I can only hope that he gets his chance soon. I doubt we will have to regret it.

Yep. I'm sure you'll agree with this, given what you've said about our young CBs, but Norwich at home is the kind of game Coates should have started REGARDLESS of the form of the other CBs. Seeing Carra start yesterday tells me, and the squad I should think, that again this season our defence, for any meaningful game, is Carra plus three others. The only hope the other CBs have of getting game time together will be if Carra gets injured.

It's doubly frustrating because it is quite possible that if Carra just had the odd rest we wouldn't even be having a debate about his form - he looked really good when coming back from injury last time. Could that have been as simple as him benefitting from an enforced rest, with his body having proper time to recover? I remember Hyppia saying that for all he wanted to play every game the simple fact is that his body couldn't cope with it. All the really quality players who've kept going and going have had that in common - they've realised they need, and have accepted, more limited game time, the pay-off being that they were still very useful in the games they did play.

Carra's unrotatable status is and has long been far more of a problem than his actual form - however well you think he's playing. Same goes for Gerrard as well, and it's already looking worryingly like he'll be on for 90 minutes every game until he breaks down again. Oh well, never mind.

[The G in Gerrard]

Agree with the above post, there was no reason Coates shouldn't have been given a start yesterday. I hate to use the Mancs as an example but they constantly rotate their squad. Skrtel was excellent yesterday and it could have given Carragher a chance to rest ahead of the Stoke game. It wouldn't be disrespectful to Norwich giving him game time, if we are looking to the future.

[fosspowered]

Should start agains West Bromwich Albion.

[Bob Loblaw]

Agree with the above post, there was no reason Coates shouldn't have been given a start yesterday. I hate to use the Mancs as an example but they constantly rotate their.

I wasnt going to say it for the same reason, but what do you think Ferguson would have done with Carra over the last couple of seasons?

[The G in Gerrard]

I wasnt going to say it for the same reason, but what do you think Ferguson would have done with Carra over the last couple of seasons?

Used him for the bigger games I suspect, not be in the squad against the likes of Norwich and the like. It's not a slight on Carra's ability and things he's done but we need to look to the future and I fail to see how we will do that when we know Carra will play against Stoke and he play all games unless he gets injured. If we don't have centrebacks that can be given an opportunity / able to play versus Norwich (again no disrespect intended to Norwich) then that's a worrying sign.

[hesbighesred]

I wasnt going to say it for the same reason, but what do you think Ferguson would have done with Carra over the last couple of seasons?

A good example is Vidic. Totally ignoring Carra's form - let's leave that to one side. But here we've got an utterly dominant defender, still in his 20s or very early 30s, who even when fit doesn't start every single game. Because of that, someone like Johnny Evans gets game time here and there. Because of that, when they DO have injury problems, like the start of this season, you have Evans and Smalling both able to come in with proper experience and an understanding of the system. If that's us, it's a brand new defensive set-up who've had no real time together. Worse, if they get that time and do well with it, like Skrtel and Agger last season, they won't get another chance to build on that experience until an injury happens.

Can't stand whiskey-nose but I love how ruthless he is with his squad for the most part. Doesn't matter what your wages are, your rep, your transfer fee, your contract, your shirt-sales - not one player in that squad is guaranteed a start, the flip side of which is that every SINGLE player in that squad knows that they will get a chance, and if they take that chance they will get more chances.

[filopastry]

Used him for the bigger games I suspect, not be in the squad against the likes of Norwich and the like. It's not a slight on Carra's ability and things he's done but we need to look to the future and I fail to see how we will do that when we know Carra will play against Stoke and he play all games unless he gets injured. If we don't have centrebacks that can be given an opportunity / able to play versus Norwich (again no disrespect intended to Norwich) then that's a worrying sign.

And to be honest if Carra wasn't happy with being rotated he'd have moved him on.

For what its worth I still think he has something to offer to the team but there's no way it should be as a starter every week, whether Carra would be willing to accept that change in status is a concern though given his past comments.

[Breitner]

Don't really get all this "use him for the bigger games" stuff. If he can handle those games he should be able to handle Norwich at home, where we have far more of the game. It's time for a change but I just don't see it unless he gets injured and can't get back in

[Breitner]

I wish we realised Coates is not some inexperienced U19 player. He's shown his class in Copa America.

Which doesn't guarantee anything really does it? Skrtel and Agger are the two senior CB's and deserve a chance imo. There'll be plenty of opportunites for Coates

[babraham]

Don't really get all this "use him for the bigger games" stuff. If he can handle those games he should be able to handle Norwich at home, where we have far more of the game. It's time for a change but I just don't see it unless he gets injured and can't get back in

The theory is that away to a big team, you'll most likely play quite defensive and with a deeper line anyway. Also you're in more of a "last ditch tackle, defend the fort" mentality which is what he's best at.

It would be great to treat the game like any other and try to dominate it but that's not always possible or wise.

[Breitner]

The theory is that away to a big team, you'll most likely play quite defensive and with a deeper line anyway. Also you're in more of a "last ditch tackle, defend the fort" mentality which is what he's best at.

It would be great to treat the game like any other and try to dominate it but that's not always possible or wise.

I get all that but I think it's overplayed and it's not the mentality we should be looking to promote anyway. We've got other good defenders who should be able to handle whatever tactics we decide

[hesbighesred]

Don't really get all this "use him for the bigger games" stuff. If he can handle those games he should be able to handle Norwich at home, where we have far more of the game. It's time for a change but I just don't see it unless he gets injured and can't get back in

Firstly, there's a huge difference between the kind of game we play away to Chelsea as opposed to Norwich at home. A backs to the wall 0-0 or smash and grab 1-0 in the former fixture is an absolute peach of a result that we're all happy with. Carra is still an absolute master when we're really under the cosh.

Secondly, it isn't about whether he can 'handle' Norwich at home. It's about him being 33 and that his body can't handle the number of games it could before. Hyppia accepted the need for rotation at a younger age than Carra, and IMO, when he did play after that, was a lot more solid than Carra is now. I think if Carra had occasional recovery periods he would benefit from it hugely.

Thirdly, it isn't just about Carra at all. It's about Coates, about Wisdom, about Kelly, even about Ayala and Wilson. Namely all the quality young CBs who either aren't getting or didn't get any chances, any real football, because we don't make a point of giving them the chances, because we don't look on games like yesterday's as a chance to freshen things a bit and see what some of our more promising youth can do - with the 'big guns' on the bench should it all go wrong.

If we don't use those kinds of games that leaves us the Carling Cup, that really isn't seen as being as important, and in which it'll be a lot of squaddies used every time, in order to develop those kinds of players. Even there we haven't exactly been prioritising youth development.

Which leaves us in a situation where young players will only get a chance if there is an injury crisis, and of course if that happens those young players will be left to sink or swim, and we have no control over which opposition they will play, and of course there is a higher chance of injury to key players if they aren't systematically rotated.

Rather than picking and choosing games that should allow us to rotate, thus giving younger players valuable experience in slightly less do or die situations which gives our big guns more fitness while still having them in reserve should we have trouble getting a result.

[Eeyore]

That's my biggest beef with Carragher. Like I've said again and again if we played the Bitters, Mancs and to a lesser extent Chelsea and Arsenal 38 times a season I'd pick him over everybody in the squad. But in games like these, where we had what was it 65% ball possession in the first half so what use is it having a player on the pitch who does not cross the center line unless to swap halves. For all the good he's done in the past, it's alarming how ineffective he is in games we dominate (or should dominate).

I mean is there any center back in world football who doesn't take part in the attack? I mean even Milan's fossilized players stroll into the box for every set piece and make the run back. Skrtel showed today that he can head the ball, Sami of course was in a league of his own. Kyrgiakos would rather have you chip the ball in his direction and head it 30 yards then pass it with his feet. How many times have we seen center backs for the other top clubs come up with crucial goals in set pieces or deliver the knock-down ball that results in a goal.


And most importantly the team seems to be losing faith in him. Skrtel bypasses him and would rather pass to Reina when he's wide open. Reina bolts it forward unless every player is covered by an opposition player and then he reluctantly rolls him the ball. People say we can't drop him as no one else can organize the defence like he does, but you have to question the organization skills of a man who seems to plan everything like a final stand instead of a counter attack.

Anyway you put it, we need a new center back pairing, preferably Skrtel and Agger or put our faith in Coates and hope he can fulfill his potential.

What summed it up for me was Stoke away when we are chasing the game and Stoke are basically defending their own 18 yard area we leave Jamie on and take Skrtel off. We leave Jamie on a player who has already been caught out for the goal and shows all the attacking threat off a dandelion gently swaying in the breeze and take off Skrtel who is a genuine threat in the opposition area.

Carroll and Skrtel getting tight and then splitting at corners is a real threat but we took Skrtel off left Carra on and Carra didn't even go up for corners. That to me said it all there was simply no rational explanation for that decision unless it was to do with the backlash that taking Jamie off would off caused.

[hesbighesred]

There'll be plenty of opportunites for Coates

When?

So far it looks like his chances are the Carling Cup and if 2 of Carra/Skrtel/Agger are injured for more than a couple of weeks at the same time. That doesn't represent 'plenty' of chances for a player who has his quality and experience, despite his young age. A season of 'plenty' of chances like that and he'll be thinking twice. If it's the same story again next season he'll be pushing for a move and we'll never know if he could have done it or not, just like we don't have a clue about Ayala, Wilson or Kelly because they've never had a chance at CB.

[Breitner]

That to me said it all there was simply no rational explanation for that decision unless it was to do with the backlash that taking Jamie off would off caused.

We're in a dark place if that is the reason. Thankfully I've got a bit more faith in Kenny D, who is not a man to shy away from conflict. Maybe there's a blindspot there, a lot of managers do put trust in the senior players, sometimes to the detriment of the side

[kingmonkey007]

Let him learn some basic English first, if there is a position on the pitch where an understanding and communication is vital then it's at the back, no?

[babraham]

I get all that but I think it's overplayed and it's not the mentality we should be looking to promote anyway. We've got other good defenders who should be able to handle whatever tactics we decide

I agree with you in theory and would love that to be the case but I just don't think it's always true in practice. Next season, sure. But for now, I'd play a very rested Carra in big games away. Next season, hopefully with half a season or so more playing experience together, Agger/Skrtel/Coates can play every game.

[babraham]

Let him learn some basic English first, if there is a position on the pitch where an understanding and communication is vital then it's at the back, no?

If Kenny is protecting Coates for whatever reason (there could be a few) then I can live with that but then Skrtel and Agger need to start.

[Loo Pan]

If Coates isn't ready to come into the side and play regularly, and it's understandable if he isn't and the coaching staff still feel he needs time to adjust, then we need to sign someone who is in January. We're mid table standard at centre back, and that might be being kind.

[itsgunnabebarnes!]

If Coates isn't ready to come into the side and play regularly, and it's understandable if he isn't and the coaching staff still feel he needs time to adjust, then we need to sign someone who is in January. We're mid table standard at centre back, and that might be being kind.

There are 8-10 teams who have better centrebacks than us, this will be reflected come the end of the season. It should have been addressed in the summer, madness it was not.

[Agent99]

It's time for a change but I just don't see it unless he gets injured and can't get back in

I doubt this will happen though mate as last year, as soon as he was available after his shoulder injury, he was straight back in the side even after we had kept three clean sheets in a row.

[spinaltapped]

I don't care as much about WBA next weekend, but he CANNOT start against Stoke.

[hesbighesred]

If Coates isn't ready to come into the side and play regularly, and it's understandable if he isn't and the coaching staff still feel he needs time to adjust, then we need to sign someone who is in January. We're mid table standard at centre back, and that might be being kind.

There are 8-10 teams who have better centrebacks than us, this will be reflected come the end of the season. It should have been addressed in the summer, madness it was not.

The problem isn't so much the CBs we actually have as the CBs we choose to play, and how often we choose to play them. Skrtel/Agger/Coates - any 2 of those three could actually be a superb partnership. I think any 2 of those 3 right now (maybe not in a few years but right now) has plenty more quality, especially in pure defending, than Jones and Evans do, but how the hell would we know? We don't have a clue, really, how good a partnership we could have from 2 of those 3 because we don't give them any opportunities to make a partnership, we don't give ourselves any chance to assess the alternatives, because unless Carra is actually injured those three, plus all of our younger still defenders, are all always competing for only one slot. The only time Carra is rotated is in the Carling Cup and even then he gets the odd start.

[Eeyore]

We're in a dark place if that is the reason. Thankfully I've got a bit more faith in Kenny D, who is not a man to shy away from conflict. Maybe there's a blindspot there, a lot of managers do put trust in the senior players, sometimes to the detriment of the side

Probably the most confrontational manager on the planet Ferguson didn't take Keane on he allowed Keane enough rope to hang himself. Kenny got the job on the ticket that he brought harmony to a fractious dressing room and restored the togetherness of the whole Club.

In that scenario why the hell would Kenny want to take Carra on before public opinion had swung behind the notion that Carra was on his last legs and needs to be replaced.

Reina is getting the blame for the goal yesterday but Carra's positioning is awful there are sayings that the first couple of yards is in the head and the best defenders are always one step ahead of the opposition. Due to his lack of pace Carra is trying to play the first five yards in his head and is trying to read the game and get into position before teams have even made a move.

For Holt's goal Carra has gambled that the ball is going to be fizzed across the six yard box and ignores Holt. Carra the right sided Centre back's initial run is to cover the left hand edge of the six yard box. He is so terrified of someone getting infront of him he is covering before the ball is played.

He ended up hopelessly under the ball and back pedalling furiously for a ball that was on the penalty spot. It's happened all season he did the same thing against Sunderland he anticipated the ball going near post got sucked in and Flanno was left two on one, he's covered Carra and the ball has gone over his head.

Against Stoke Carra has anticipated the ball over the top gone five yards too early and then got himself the wrong side and given away a penalty. Against Spurs every time Modric got on the ball Carra has headed for the penalty spot anticipating a ball through for Defoe. Spurs just kept hold of the ball and played it into the gap between Carra and Skrtel at full back.

Bale wasn't destroying Skrtel on the outside he was just running into the space Carra had vacated. Against Everton at 0-0 instead of getting tight on Cahil. Carra has backed of worried about the ball behind him and left Cahil a free run for the header Reina tipped over.

Then he challenged Saha and instead of staying tight he has basically ran for the sanctuary of the six yard box and allowed Saha to turn unchallenged and shoot. Against United Wellbeck he has anticipated the ball being whipped in and has been caught out when Wellbeck has pulled off him and got in a free header.

Carra is not picking players up he is continually trying to buy himself a couple of yards and more interested in getting goal side than in actually winning the ball. We never hold a line anymore for the Norwich goal they haven't had to do anything, they haven't cut us open with a through ball , they haven't had to beat a man we have done all the hard work for them by slamming the defence into reverse and running for the sanctuary of the six yard box.

[Endoe]

Our back fours looked average for  a long timee, it need sorting.I don't see why we'd spend the money on Coates if we planned to not play him, at an age where he needs experience, it's not like Wilson who wan't Kenny's signing.

[Camarero25]

What summed it up for me was Stoke away when we are chasing the game and Stoke are basically defending their own 18 yard area we leave Jamie on and take Skrtel off. We leave Jamie on a player who has already been caught out for the goal and shows all the attacking threat off a dandelion gently swaying in the breeze and take off Skrtel who is a genuine threat in the opposition area.

Carroll and Skrtel getting tight and then splitting at corners is a real threat but we took Skrtel off left Carra on and Carra didn't even go up for corners. That to me said it all there was simply no rational explanation for that decision unless it was to do with the backlash that taking Jamie off would off caused.

That's an excellent point. I know you're famous for your Carra conspiracy theories, but stuff like this worries the fuck out of me.

Think a lot of people are being very kind to Carra as well, which is understandable. However, if any of our other centre backs had been playing like he has recently, we would not be advocating them starting the big games. Are you telling me that if we do "rest" him, and we develop a solid partnership at the back, that he should automatically be brought back for big games just because he's Jamie Carragher?

[Loo Pan]

The problem isn't so much the CBs we actually have as the CBs we choose to play, and how often we choose to play them. Skrtel/Agger/Coates - any 2 of those three could actually be a superb partnership. I think any 2 of those 3 right now (maybe not in a few years but right now) has plenty more quality, especially in pure defending, than Jones and Evans do, but how the hell would we know? We don't have a clue, really, how good a partnership we could have from 2 of those 3 because we don't give them any opportunities to make a partnership, we don't give ourselves any chance to assess the alternatives, because unless Carra is actually injured those three, plus all of our younger still defenders, are all always competing for only one slot. The only time Carra is rotated is in the Carling Cup and even then he gets the odd start.

I take your point, but the problem is that Agger is unavailable half the time, Skrtel isn't a player that i regard as being top four first choice centre back standard (although i appreciate some might argue otherwise), and if the coaching staff don't think that Coates is ready, and feel that Carragher is still our best option week in week out, seemingly above anyone else, then for me that indicates a problem that can only be rectified by stepping into the transfer market.

[bigbear]

If anybody else in the side was playing like Jamie is they would not be getting picked.

Kenny needs to have a look at this urgently and with a totally clean pair of eyes. He is close to Carra and maybe Clarke needs to do what a number 2 should do when a boss is not seeing things clearly.

[The G in Gerrard]

Don't really get all this "use him for the bigger games" stuff. If he can handle those games he should be able to handle Norwich at home, where we have far more of the game. It's time for a change but I just don't see it unless he gets injured and can't get back in

He shouldn't HAVE to be used against Norwich

[john_mac]

That to me said it all there was simply no rational explanation for that decision unless it was to do with the backlash that taking Jamie off would off caused.
[/quote]

There you again spouting your fantacist shite as fact. Disgusting

[itsgunnabebarnes!]

That to me said it all there was simply no rational explanation for that decision unless it was to do with the backlash that taking Jamie off would off caused.


There you again spouting your fantacist shite as fact. Disgusting

Its a forum, its his view, deal with it.

[hesbighesred]

I take your point, but the problem is that Agger is unavailable half the time, Skrtel isn't a player that i regard as being top four first choice centre back standard (although i appreciate some might argue otherwise), and if the coaching staff don't think that Coates is ready, and feel that Carragher is still our best option week in week out, seemingly above anyone else, then for me that indicates a problem that can only be rectified by stepping into the transfer market.

Yep, of course. It totally hangs on how you rate Skrtel. I've been very impressed by him this season, and generally think he's been good - certainly good enough for top 4, but clearly Agger is unreliable.

If you think Skrtel is good enough then it's easy to be confident in the idea of Skrtel + one of Coates/Agger with Carra as back up. If you don't think he's good enough then it's obvious why you'd want another CB as a priority.

Either way it's frustrating that we're simply not going to find out how good Coates is in a 'real' back 4 unless Carra gets injured.