Topic: Liverpool v Manchester Utd: After game, Bleakness

[zabadoh]

We had plenty of chances to tie or win the game.  But as usual, our strikers all misfired.  When are they going to get some target practice Rafa?

Benayoun staying on the goal line instead of pulling upwards with the rest of the back line cost us that goal.
Was anybody else irritated by that hug Tevez got from Benayoun after the whistle?
For me, Yossi wins goat of the game.

I thought we did a good job of neutralizing Cronaldo. 
I am surprised that Evra has developed into a decent winger.

Not being very coherent.  Just gutted.

[REDDHEART]

I'm sure you meant to use YELLOWHEART, but obviously you're colourblind...

HOW IS IT COLORBLIND?

[feynman]

So, were on about Kuijt again.
Mascherano was so shit yesterday that I'm wondering if we should even consider buying him, but hey, let's blame Kuijt.

And Riise of course.

He never looked to score, what's his job description???

[Ron]

He never looked to score, what's his job description???

I don't know, he plays too deep to be a striker anyway.

[NickoH]

I don't know, he plays too deep to be a striker anyway.

Not picking on one player but he was fucking woeful yesterday from his first minute till his last.........

[Meako1977]

Simple answer is they took their chance and we never. We are both similar teams, built on a solid defence so it was obvious that the 1st goal was going to be vital. If we had of scored then we had the defensive capabilities to hold out for a 1-0.

Biggest concern was the complete lack of ideas from the midfield and forwards, especially 2nd half. Not sure how blind some fans can be but bringing Crouch on just played directly into Utd's hands. Vidic and Ferdinand bullied him out of every header and he had no impact. We would have been better leaving Riise on, putting Aurelio at LM and asking Babel to push inside so we can try and play through their defence.

We are still only 7 points behind if we win are game in hand but it leaves little margin for error for the rest of the season if we are to challenge. IMO I cant see us putting together an unbeaten run from now until the end of the season so this has proved to be a mortal blow to any championship hopes.

I hope the one thing that comes from this game is that Rafa takes a long, hard look at are forward options. Kuyt and Crouch are not good enough when it comes to playing week in, week out. Both are found seriously short of ability and it leaves a massive pressure of Torres to keep delivering the goals.

[tinbus]

Well said above! Finally some short yet sensible verdict of the match ....

[Regi]

We were unacceptably poor yesterday, and resorted almost exclusively to long balls from the 50 minute mark onwards.
It really was a depressing display of predictability, and we didn't deserve to get much.
The four best players on the park were defenders, which says a lot...Sami, Arbeloa, Ferdinand and Evra.
The lack of imagination in our midfield was unbelievable...no triangles, no probing for gaps, no switching the play. We had the best weapon on the pitch and completely failed to utilise his greatest asset because we didn't have the confidence/patience/ability (delete as necessary) to create the space for him to run into.
It was two passes, a lump upfield and trying to win the breaking ball. Crap to watch. On paper, we should have had the midfield area sewn up but we were barely breaking even. What ever happened to controlling possession and drawing defenders out? No point doing it against the lesser sides if we don't have the kahunas to do it everytime. Confidence was high going into the game but you wouldn't have thought it.
At least Babel had the balls to take them on and commit players. He really got involved when he was on...one positive to take from it.
Not what Rafa needed on that of all days. 

[Aldridge 8]

oh now you all got your knives into kuyt , well done  easy target see all you lot don't see the big picture its either kuyt or pennant when he plays who gets the stick  , but the real culprits yesterday were GERRARD CARRAGHER KEWELL MASCHEREANO ,  plus torres getting a lesson on top level premier league football in which he should learn from to make him more aware next time , this is another reason not to spend 17 mill on masch yes good player but contributes nothing in attack 17 million for a player like that is far to much especially when we have alonso returning and the emergence of lucas leiva , we need at least a one top centre back to play with agger a winger an other forward and a top full back thats were that 17 mill should go towards .

[The Scouseologist]

15 points out of a possible 63 against the top 3 sides under Rafa, we are still a long way from winning the league in my eyes!

[Hank Scorpio]

My personal view is that we did not deserve a win from the match yesterday.  Perhaps a draw could be argued for, but you would have to be persuasive.

I think the underlining difference between the sides was how the two reacted to mistakes from one another.  United made 3 or maybe 4 mistakes, most of which were VDS fault, but we were never quick enough to react or ruthless enough to punish them.  We made one major error, whether it be Rooney not being closed down or Benayoun not pushing up with the rest of the side, and we were punished big style.

It seems we do not, as yet, have this ruthless nature or the ability to make the most of errors made by the opposition, which all top class EPL winning sides have.

Another point I think deserves a mention is the substitutions.  I think Benitez got it wrong.  Dirk Kuyt was having a bad match, devoid of any confidence, and needed to be taken off around the hour mark or so.  You could see that the lad just needed a break from the game.  Benitez persisted with him to not only our disadvantage but also a blow for Kuyt.

Overall I do not think we did too much wrong yesterday.  There wasn't a massive gulf between the sides.  We kept Rooney, Tevez, Giggs and Ronaldo fairly quite for most of the match.  I thought we had a tough time in midfield, tougher than expected, but the United CM was on form.  The real problem was in the final third, where I think we lacked creativity. 

In the 1st half it looked as though Dirk Kuyt did not want the ball.  Kewell and Benayoun (who later improved) were off form, in Kewell's case it may have a been a top class game too soon.  Torres started brightly but faded in the 2nd half when he was anonymous.  I think with a little bit more quality in the final third we may have really tested United.

At the end of the day, you have to give credit to the visitors.  They played well in defence and midfield and took their chance, when it came.  They were ruthless.

[gearoid]

I have to say my opinion after watching the game and letting the bile settle is that we tried to hard. We didnt play our normal game, we seemed to try and score every time we had the ball rather than passing the ball around and letting united chase us. I was disappointed with our width, neither side looked in the mood and kuyt disappointed me. I would have like to see voronin i think he would have been a good option to cope with uniteds central defence and also see something from nothing. I also think babel has to start starting games soon.

PS not sure we will ever be able to play alonso gerrard and mashcerano in the same midfield.

that is all

[Meako1977]

oh now you all got your knives into kuyt , well done  easy target see all you lot don't see the big picture its either kuyt or pennant when he plays who gets the stick  , but the real culprits yesterday were GERRARD CARRAGHER KEWELL MASCHEREANO ,  plus torres getting a lesson on top level premier league football in which he should learn from to make him more aware next time , this is another reason not to spend 17 mill on masch yes good player but contributes nothing in attack 17 million for a player like that is far to much especially when we have alonso returning and the emergence of lucas leiva , we need at least a one top centre back to play with agger a winger an other forward and a top full back thats were that 17 mill should go towards .

I must have been at a different game from you!! IMO Carra and Masch both had good games. As well as Hyppia, Arbe & Riise. Gerrard and Torres where quiet and Kewell had an awful 1st half but was better 2nd.

As for Kuyt he didnt offer anything and neither did his replacement Crouch. Both will workhard for the team but at this level you need that extra yard and neither have it.

Guess its all about opinions but in my view your talking out your arse! 

[Robbie Soul]

Bloody Benitez saving his best team for the Carling Cup in midweek...

Er, I thought we were unlucky...I knew, I just knew in the first half when he were pressing them so much but not taking chances that they'd get one and score. And they duly did. We're not out of it..we still can go to OT/The Bridge/Emirates and get points. The big four still have to play each other again this season. Lets get two of our moist important players back (Agger & Xabi) and see where we are.

[Kelvin_Little]

Matches against the top 4 are all about half chances and taking these chances.

We had a few half chances from Van Der Sar's errors, but we couldnt punish him for them.  We made one mistake and allowed Rooney to sit on the edge of the box unmarked and he punished us.

I dont think they were much better than us - they didnt really create that many chances, but neither did we - as I said its about half chances and we really need to start putting ours away.

[GBF]

We are the poorest in footballing terms in this "top 4".  We have won something like 7 our of 37 games againt Mancs, Goons and Chelsea.  I think that is where all the problem lies.  We make a big deal by playing well against poor teams like Marseille and Derby but we are like shit-in-the-pant-lambs against them 3 teams.  Once we have the balls to play them, i think we would be far better!

[Aldridge 8]

I must have been at a different game from you!! IMO Carra and Masch both had good games. As well as Hyppia, Arbe & Riise. Gerrard and Torres where quiet and Kewell had an awful 1st half but was better 2nd.

Guess its all about opinions but in my view your talking out your arse! 

do you mean jamie lump the ball fifty yards to knowone carragher , and steven gerrard i wont cross the half way line gerrard , yes as i said before blame the easy players but not super jamie or stevie awful along with the embarrassing kewell , yes hyypia arebola benayoun done well babel done well from the bench but that was it , but i suppose its if you have the rose tinted glasses on or not .

[The Scouseologist]

I must have been at a different game from you!! IMO Carra and Masch both had good games. As well as Hyppia, Arbe & Riise. Gerrard and Torres where quiet and Kewell had an awful 1st half but was better 2nd.

As for Kuyt he didnt offer anything and neither did his replacement Crouch. Both will workhard for the team but at this level you need that extra yard and neither have it.

Guess its all about opinions but in my view your talking out your arse! 

Carraghers distribution was annoying all game, Vidic never had it so easy, winning headers for fun.

Then Carra would try play one over the top to Kuyt, who with 2 yard start could still not reach the ball first.

For me poor display from Carra yesterday, but did think Sami played his best game for us this season.

[b_joseph]

do you mean jamie lump the ball fifty yards to knowone carragher , and steven gerrard i wont cross the half way line gerrard , yes as i said before blame the easy players but not super jamie or stevie awful along with the embarrassing kewell , yes hyypia arebola benayoun done well babel done well from the bench but that was it , but i suppose its if you have the rose tinted glasses on or not .

So Gerrard was awful because he played a disciplined middle of midfield game? Laughable. You would probably have been the forst to moan if he was atacking all game....vactaing his position and all that.

The back 4 and the middle 2 did a fine job yesterday of making one of the best attacking teams in world football, look decidedly average.
Rafa won the battle in that regard. From there, we relied on our wingers and forwards to muster up some magic to get us a goal. They couldnt do that and we didnt score.

[Regi]

I must have been at a different game from you!! IMO Carra and Masch both had good games. As well as Hyppia, Arbe & Riise. Gerrard and Torres where quiet and Kewell had an awful 1st half but was better 2nd.

As for Kuyt he didnt offer anything and neither did his replacement Crouch. Both will workhard for the team but at this level you need that extra yard and neither have it.

Guess its all about opinions but in my view your talking out your arse! 

Sorry mate but neither Masch nor Gerrard had good games.
Masch in particular offers precious little going forward...whether that is due to his instructions I don't know, but it isn't good enough. Personally I think he's told to sit deep and it's restricting him big time.
Stevie also sat far too deep. He didn't suuport the front men like he usually does and showed too much respect to United in the central area. Again far from his best.
If you think either played well then you haven't seen them when they genuinely play well

[gearoid]

Lets get two of our moist important players back (Agger & Xabi) and see where we are.

I cant wait 

[b_joseph]

Sorry mate but neither Masch nor Gerrard had good games.
Masch in particular offers precious little going forward...whether that is due to his instructions I don't know, but it isn't good enough. Personally I think he's told to sit deep and it's restricting him big time.
Stevie also sat far too deep. He didn't suuport the front men like he usually does and showed too much respect to United in the central area. Again far from his best.
If you think either played well then you haven't seen them when they genuinely play well

Regi, that is Mascheranos job. He isnt expected to be an attacking threat..just like how the attackers arent expected to play great defense.

[Aldridge 8]

I cant wait 

agger and alonso are two of the most important players because they especialy alonso who dictates the tempo of the play for liverpool by being able to play a pass unlike carragher or maschereano .

[Regi]

So Gerrard was awful because he played a disciplined middle of midfield game? Laughable. You would probably have been the forst to moan if he was atacking all game....vactaing his position and all that.

The back 4 and the middle 2 did a fine job yesterday of making one of the best attacking teams in world football, look decidedly average.
Rafa won the battle in that regard. From there, we relied on our wingers and forwards to muster up some magic to get us a goal. They couldnt do that and we didnt score.

We were at home. We needed three points, nothing less,
This was not the time for a 'disciplined', as you put it, Gerrard performance.
This was the time for a charging, bullying performance that he is so easily capable of, pushing United back
He should have had Anderson and Hargreaves retreating from the first minute.
I'm not putting all the blame with Stevie mind you...We were far too tentative from the off and that is the manager's area

[DaveLFC]

It's no surprise that whisky nose greeted Houllier with a hug at Anfield yesterday, after all it was Houllier that gave him the idea of 'smash and grab' tactics to beat us at home. We did it to them often enough under GH.

[Aldridge 8]

Regi, that is Mascherano job. He isn't expected to be an attacking threat..just like how the attackers aren't expected to play great defense.

nonsense he should be able to contribute in attack and unfortunately he cant and to pay 17 mill for that type of player is madness good player that he is he is limited

[gearoid]

our moist important players back (Agger & Xabi) .

[Meako1977]

Sorry mate but neither Masch nor Gerrard had good games.
Masch in particular offers precious little going forward...whether that is due to his instructions I don't know, but it isn't good enough. Personally I think he's told to sit deep and it's restricting him big time.
Stevie also sat far too deep. He didn't suuport the front men like he usually does and showed too much respect to United in the central area. Again far from his best.
If you think either played well then you haven't seen them when they genuinely play well

Would that be Mascherano the world-class defensive midfielder??

Not sure what you expect from the above role but its normally gives it away in the title. He should be sitting infront of the back four, providing cover and breaking up play. Hence why I thought he had a good game. As for Gerrard I said he was quiet. I agree he sat far to deep in the 2nd half but I think that was more in fear of the attacking options that Utd have.

Carraghers distribution was annoying all game, Vidic never had it so easy, winning headers for fun.

Then Carra would try play one over the top to Kuyt, who with 2 yard start could still not reach the ball first.

For me poor display from Carra yesterday, but did think Sami played his best game for us this season.

I agree that Carra's distribution leaves a lot to be desired but that was obviously the instruction. Get the ball up early to Torres and Kuyt. Both are centre-halves are blessed with the ability to hit a ball 40 yards to nobody. Based on his defensive performance I though Carra and Sammi played very well. In the end defenders are paid to defend and the both did a very good job on Tevez and Rooney.

[Regi]

Regi, that is Mascheranos job. He isnt expected to be an attacking threat..just like how the attackers arent expected to play great defense.

I accept that Masch's main job is to break up attacks but you can't afford to have a player whose job consists of that and nothing else. He has to be able to offer something at the other end of the field as well, or at least be willing to take the ball off the centre halfs and start attacks from deep.
When does Masch ever take the ball from Sami or Carra and start an attack? Rarely if ever.
The only person who regularly does this from deep is Xabi and it's a crucial part of the game. Carra's endless and aimless 50 yard passes upfield are hardly the way forward. It's the football of a team who haven't got the ability to play it any other way.
We patently do have the ability but fail to use it at the crucial times

[b_joseph]

We were at home. We needed three points, nothing less,
This was not the time for a 'disciplined', as you put it, Gerrard performance.
This was the time for a charging, bullying performance that he is so easily capable of, pushing United back
He should have had Anderson and Hargreaves retreating from the first minute.
I'm not putting all the blame with Stevie mind you...We were far too tentative from the off and that is the manager's area

Charging you say? That would have lead to everybody on this site moaning about how Gerrard tries to do too much or Steven Gerrard M.B.E. trying to be Superman..blah blah blah.

You cant go all guns blazing against United because they will pick you apart. You have to stifle them and then try to create a goal for yourself.
We stifled them..made them look average....but we just couldnt create anything from the players whose sole job is to create.


You need to be able to beat the better teams when your best player isnt or isnt being allowed to dominate the game.
United continually do it without Ronaldo and we cant do it without Gerrard.
Preferbly the 1st goal.

[Brick Tamland]

2 points from 9 at home and we wont get more than that in the return fixtures either. 5 points from 18 at best I predict. That's shite and don't deserve to win the title on that sort of return in the big games.

[DaveLFC]

2 points from 9 at home and we wont get more than that in the return fixtures either. 5 points from 18 at best I predict. That's shite and don't deserve to win the title on that sort of return in the big games.

Thank god the league works on actual results instead of your predictions then

[b_joseph]

nonsense he should be able to contribute in attack and unfortunately he cant and to pay 17 mill for that type of player is madness good player that he is he is limited

Hardly...Does Makelele attack? Did Deschamps? Mascherano does his job and by him doing his job, it enables us to always stay in games because we rarely, rarely concede anything more than 1 goal when he plays.

Mascherano is invaluable and just because he doesnt dazzle you with attacking displays. That doesnt mean that he should be disrepsected on here.

[Hank Scorpio]

2 points from 9 at home and we wont get more than that in the return fixtures either. 5 points from 18 at best I predict. That's shite and don't deserve to win the title on that sort of return in the big games.

Just for reference, United got 8 out 18 points in their title winning season last year.  That is not much off your 5 out of 18.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

I was gutted to find the Manc bus wasn't upside down on fire on the motorway.

Manc c*nts.

[Aldridge 8]

Hardly...Does Makelele attack? Did Deschamps? Mascherano does his job and by him doing his job, it enables us to always stay in games because we rarely, rarely concede anything more than 1 goal when he plays.

Mascherano is invaluable and just because he doesnt dazzle you with attacking displays. That doesnt mean that he should be disrepsected on here.

makele dechamps ok yes but does that mean we need that type of limited player , who is arsenal's makekle or dechamps or masch  ?

[Regi]

Would that be Mascherano the world-class defensive midfielder??

Not sure what you expect from the above role but its normally gives it away in the title. He should be sitting infront of the back four, providing cover and breaking up play. Hence why I thought he had a good game. As for Gerrard I said he was quiet. I agree he sat far to deep in the 2nd half but I think that was more in fear of the attacking options that Utd have.

What I expect is simple, a player whose main job is to break up attacks but a player who also, when we are attacking, provides support to that attack from a deeper area. This is even more important when you have 2 in midfield...you can hardly expect one to just break up attacks and the other to do the rest. With 3 in central midfield, it becomes less of an issue...Gattuso in Milan's central 3 being an example.
It's not rocket science, and Masch is well capable of contributing going forward,judging by his performances for Argentina.
In the modern game, you cannot afford to have a player who breaks up attacks and does that alone. He must offer more, especially when we play at home and need the win so badly

[Meako1977]

I accept that Masch's main job is to break up attacks but you can't afford to have a player whose job consists of that and nothing else. He has to be able to offer something at the other end of the field as well, or at least be willing to take the ball off the centre halfs and start attacks from deep.
When does Masch ever take the ball from Sami or Carra and start an attack? Rarely if ever.
The only person who regularly does this from deep is Xabi and it's a crucial part of the game. Carra's endless and aimless 50 yard passes upfield are hardly the way forward. It's the football of a team who haven't got the ability to play it any other way.
We patently do have the ability but fail to use it at the crucial times

Think you need to have a look at that match again. If you look at Man Utd's team they had two holding midfielders in Carrick/Anderson and Hargreaves. They do the hardwork which then allows your Ronaldo's, Giggs etc to play. Without that role then we would be picked apart in the midfield.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

Gerrard was fucking piss poor yesterday - worst I've ever seen him play.

If that's his attitude - we should sell the soft twat.

[PaislyShankley]

We were depressingly ordinary. Them slightly less so without the depressing bit but they were still too good for us.