Author Topic: The NFL Thread  (Read 2774163 times)

Offline RedG13

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Re: The NFL Thread
« Reply #57160 on: October 12, 2020, 10:04:41 am »
Bizarre, back in the day (i`m talking the eighties) they had a simple algorithm where the teams that did better had a more difficult schedule than the team that did poorly). Not sure how the Chiefs get an easier schedule than the Raiders  ::)

I have to say I did not see this win coming. Great offence, we got a couple of players back and a defence that`s limited sticking to a good gameplan. Apparently we also generated the most or second most pressures on Mahomes ever too. Which is another surprise.
Chiefs play 6 division games, 4 NFC games south(as do Raiders), 4 afc east(same as Raider) and 2 games vs the first place teams in the afc which was Houston and Baltimore. Chiefs of that get technically the easiest Division schedule but hardest non division schedule. Raiders get the 3rd place team which was Indy and Cle for the Afc games.
They still do the schedule like that for all teams. 1st place= 1st place schedule, 2nd=2nd,3rd=3rd and 4th=4th. Each for 2 divisions in your conference that is not the full conference division schedule(which rotates each year).

Offline TipTopKop

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Re: The NFL Thread
« Reply #57161 on: October 12, 2020, 10:08:12 am »
Where the NFL has continuously shafted the Raiders is the travel; almost every year (when in Oakland) they had them zig zagging across the country, consistently clocking up the most air miles.

Last season was another classic example when they somehow came up with this brutal stretch of 4 or 5 away games on the trot (the 'home' game in the middle being London).

Offline Dull Tools

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Re: The NFL Thread
« Reply #57162 on: October 12, 2020, 11:26:45 am »
Chiefs play 6 division games, 4 NFC games south(as do Raiders), 4 afc east(same as Raider) and 2 games vs the first place teams in the afc which was Houston and Baltimore. Chiefs of that get technically the easiest Division schedule but hardest non division schedule. Raiders get the 3rd place team which was Indy and Cle for the Afc games.
They still do the schedule like that for all teams. 1st place= 1st place schedule, 2nd=2nd,3rd=3rd and 4th=4th. Each for 2 divisions in your conference that is not the full conference division schedule(which rotates each year).
It is just unlucky for the Raiders that the Browns and Colts are decent this year.

Chiefs were a bit unlucky with calls last night but their defence needs to perform better. Raiders offensive line looked really good and if they can give Carr the time he needs then they could make the play offs.

Chief's division record is pretty crazy though. 27-3 in last 30.

Offline Dull Tools

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Re: The NFL Thread
« Reply #57163 on: October 12, 2020, 11:28:13 am »
Pretty dumb by the Vikings not to go for the FG, even though it was 4th & 1, & they converted a few 4th downs in the game, they'd have had an 8 point lead, Seahawks needing a TD & 2 point conversion to take it into overtime.
That was crazy. If you go 8 points clear at worse you are going to OT.

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Re: The NFL Thread
« Reply #57164 on: October 12, 2020, 11:29:59 am »
That was crazy. If you go 8 points clear at worse you are going to OT.

bad teams do stupid things though.

Where the NFL has continuously shafted the Raiders is the travel; almost every year (when in Oakland) they had them zig zagging across the country, consistently clocking up the most air miles.

Last season was another classic example when they somehow came up with this brutal stretch of 4 or 5 away games on the trot (the 'home' game in the middle being London).

such is the life of a west coast team. If I remember rightly the bucs last year got an even worse stretch though where they didn't play at home for about 2 months.

Offline IanZG

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Re: The NFL Thread
« Reply #57165 on: October 12, 2020, 11:30:19 am »
That was crazy. If you go 8 points clear at worse you are going to OT.

I think it was a good call, the way Wilson is playing you don't want to give him the ball. Gruden did the same thing against the Chiefs (though I think the alternative there was a punt, but I may be wrong) and it paid off in the end.

Offline Dull Tools

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Re: The NFL Thread
« Reply #57166 on: October 12, 2020, 11:32:27 am »
I think it was a good call, the way Wilson is playing you don't want to give him the ball. Gruden did the same thing against the Chiefs (though I think the alternative there was a punt, but I may be wrong) and it paid off in the end.
He was going to get the ball anyway if they scored a TD no?

Offline IanZG

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Re: The NFL Thread
« Reply #57167 on: October 12, 2020, 12:08:58 pm »
He was going to get the ball anyway if they scored a TD no?

But I think they would be in a onside kick situation. I may be wrong, didn't watch it live, just watching the highlights I thought it was the right decision to go for it.

Offline Zimagic

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Re: The NFL Thread
« Reply #57168 on: October 12, 2020, 02:17:38 pm »
At least now I have a ready-made excuse for the Cowboys not getting to the SB #ifithadntbeenfordaksankle....
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Offline Jookie

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Re: The NFL Thread
« Reply #57169 on: October 12, 2020, 02:32:18 pm »
Said a few weeks ago that I though the 49ers needed to be 4-1 at this point to have a chance if making the playoffs. Sitting at 2-3 after getting beat by the Eagles and hammered by Miami, it's very hard to see a way back for the 49ers this season. Their schedule is brutal over the next few weeks.

Feels a bit like the 2014 season, the last under Harbaugh where they went 8-8. Team that is built to win now but things are starting to unravel as the season progresses. I do wonder if they'll make it to 8-8 even. Look more likely to have a Top 10 draft pick than to get to 8 wins at the moment.

In fairness they have a lot of injuries but they are underperforming. If they do end up having a losing season, I wonder whether the high draft pick will be used on a QB rather than a defensive lineman.
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Offline Kennys from heaven

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Re: The NFL Thread
« Reply #57170 on: October 12, 2020, 04:14:38 pm »
Come on the Bills... Steelers aslo looking decent thus far.

Kansas being done at home was an interesting one - only one loss, but a home one after that streak. Let's see what Mahomes is made of!

Feel for Prescott - terrible injury and sad to see. That will take some coming back from as well, but all the best to him for the recovery.
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Re: The NFL Thread
« Reply #57171 on: October 12, 2020, 04:17:55 pm »
Chiefs will bounce back and start winning again I'd say. It was a decent game, fair play to the Raiders, they essentially played a perfect game on defence.

I agree that The Seahawks may just about be the best team in the NFC at the moment, I expect them to at least make the Championship game this season.
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Offline voodoo ray

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Re: The NFL Thread
« Reply #57172 on: October 12, 2020, 04:33:13 pm »
Come on the Bills... Steelers aslo looking decent thus far.

Kansas being done at home was an interesting one - only one loss, but a home one after that streak. Let's see what Mahomes is made of!

Feel for Prescott - terrible injury and sad to see. That will take some coming back from as well, but all the best to him for the recovery.

point of order but it's kansas city. they're not even in the state of kansas.







apparently prescott has been told it'll only be a 4-6 month recovery which sounds like good news.

Offline Dull Tools

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Re: The NFL Thread
« Reply #57173 on: October 12, 2020, 05:24:22 pm »
Chiefs will bounce back and start winning again I'd say. It was a decent game, fair play to the Raiders, they essentially played a perfect game on defence.

I agree that The Seahawks may just about be the best team in the NFC at the moment, I expect them to at least make the Championship game this season.
Will be interesting as their next game is against the Bills.

Offline Statto Red

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Re: The NFL Thread
« Reply #57174 on: October 13, 2020, 10:34:50 pm »
Le'Veon Bell wants a trade from the Jets
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Re: The NFL Thread
« Reply #57175 on: October 13, 2020, 10:38:33 pm »
Le'Veon Bell wants a trade from the Jets

Go on pats get him.

Offline skipper757

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Re: The NFL Thread
« Reply #57176 on: October 13, 2020, 10:41:58 pm »
Shit, it's a shame Bill O'Brien got canned by the Texans.  Probably could've flipped Bell and a first-rounder for Deshaun Watson, Will Fuller, and the Texans next three first rounders.
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Offline skipper757

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Re: The NFL Thread
« Reply #57177 on: October 14, 2020, 02:14:36 am »
Bell released.  Good for him.  He can sign with a contender.

Adam Gase continues to defy all expectations.
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Offline Statto Red

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Re: The NFL Thread
« Reply #57178 on: October 14, 2020, 03:27:16 am »
The Jets have to be the most incompetent team in sports?
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Offline skipper757

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Re: The NFL Thread
« Reply #57179 on: October 14, 2020, 03:30:10 am »
The Jets have to be the most incompetent team in sports?

This year?  Yes, sir.

All time?  Not even close.

Give it a few more years of this nonsense and they'll get there though.
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Offline Statto Red

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Re: The NFL Thread
« Reply #57180 on: October 14, 2020, 03:39:43 am »
This year?  Yes, sir.

All time?  Not even close.

Give it a few more years of this nonsense and they'll get there though.

Yep, when you think they're moving forward they're moving backwards instead, Bell cost them a fair bit too in wages didn't he, Jets to go 0-16 this season, can't see a win anywhere.
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Offline skipper757

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Re: The NFL Thread
« Reply #57181 on: October 14, 2020, 04:48:57 am »
Yep, when you think they're moving forward they're moving backwards instead, Bell cost them a fair bit too in wages didn't he, Jets to go 0-16 this season, can't see a win anywhere.

Absolutely.  The problem is the GM change after the Bell contract and the Gase hiring.  Joe Douglas the current GM basically inherited a massive mess from the previous GMs Mike MacCagnan and John Idzik (and the latter years of Mike Tannebaum). 

To sum up to where we are today, the Jets had been a mediocre organization since Parcells stabilized the team in the 90s.  But the key was the drafting and utilization of picks.  They were actually pretty good from the late 90s to the 2010s.  Some duds in there (Vernon Gholston comes to mind), but some real good drafts (like Chad Pennington, John Abraham, and Shaun Ellis in the first round in 2000, D'Brickashaw Ferguson and Nick Mangold in the first round in 2006 to set up LT and Center for years, Darrelle Revis and David Harris in rounds 1 and 2 in 2007, some good 4th round picks, etc) helped keep the team competitive.  They could never sustain success due to the lack of a long-term franchise QB but never went into a downward spiral at all.  The organization had issues (starting with ownership), but they were competitive on the field.

Since 2010, however, it's been a nightmare.  The drafting since then has been by far the worst in the league.  In the first two rounds from 2010 to 2019 (under the aforementioned Tannebaum, Idzik, and MacCagnan), the Jets drafted:
First round:
-Kyle Wilson (CB, 2010), Muhammad Wilkerson (DE/DT, 2011), Quentin Coples (LB, 2012), Dee Milliner (CB, 2013), Sheldon Richardson (DT, 2013), Calvin Pryor (S, 2014), Leonard Williams (DE/DT, 2015), Darron Lee (LB, 2016), Jamal Adams (S, 2017), Sam Darnold (QB, 2018), Quinnen Williams (DE/DT, 2019)
Second round:
-Vlad Ducasse (T/G, 2010), Stephen Hill (WR, 2012), Geno Smith (QB, 2013), Jace Amaro (TE, 2014), Devin Smith (WR, 2015), Christian Hackenberg (QB, 2016), Marcus Maye (S, 2017)

Now, what you can notice is:
-11 first round picks since 2010, 10 of them on defense; Yet, the Jets came up with 0 good edge rushers and 0 shutdown corners; literally a complete neglect of one side of the football with almost no results to show for it anyway
-Only one offensive linemen taken in the first two rounds (in fact, this goes back to that 2006 draft with Ferguson and Mangold); a complete neglect of the O-Line
-The second round picks from 2014 to 2016 were all on offense, except they combined for about 35 games in the NFL.  Just terrible.
-The 2013 draft was one of the worst attempts at team building ever.  Essentially, the Jets had success with Sanchez for his first two years.  They had to extend him at some point but that meant less cap space to bring back the supporting cast.  The 2011 and 2012 teams were not good.  The constant drafting of defense even as Sanchez's offensive weapons left the team was bad enough, but when there were question marks about his long-term viability as QB, the Jets had a perfect opportunity in 2013 with the 9th overall pick, the 13th overall pick, and a second rounder to do something.  They drafted Geno Smith in the second round, which was fine, but they drafted two defensive players in the first round.  A serious WTF?  Those two picks have to be on offense.  A WR and a OT or something to give Sanchez something and if he can't go, then Geno Smith gets some support to start in the NFL.  But the Jets go for two defensive players.  No support for either QB who desperately needed it.  Geno Smith actually went 8-8 as a rookie.  Imagine if he got some support instead of a headcase DL in Richardson and a injury-plagued CB in Milliner.
-The 2019 pick of Quinnen Williams was also highly questionable (one of the last acts of the previous GM MacCagnan).  Given the horrendous drafting that preceded it for almost a decade, finally landing Sam Darnold in 2018 was a positive step.  So they support him by drafting a DE/DT in the top 3.  Unless this guy's Aaron Donald, why would you not draft linemen or a WR for Darnold?  WTF is this?

And there you have it.  Years of the Jets putting the band-aid on worked (from the 90s to 2010) because underpinning it involved a good infusion of talent.  Even when the Jets made weird moves (like the Favre signing) or off-the-cuff hires (Eric Mangini), it actually worked to an extent.  So organization problems stemming from poor ownership and questionable GM moves were masked for a long time.

But since 2010, this team has been the worst at drafting.  Combine that with poor ownership, the hiring of bad GMs, the poor advice received from "experts" and the eventual hiring of Adam Gase, you have the 2020 Jets:  the worst team in the NFL.

The good news of this clusterfuck is that the new GM Joe Douglas has improved (slowly) the OL and seems to have a good eye there, though the departure of Robby Anderson and the current release of Le'veon Bell stings.  Despite the jokes of Trevor Lawrence staying in school, the Jets O-Line looking more competent would be a massive boon should the Jets get the #1 pick.  You can only look at what happens to QBs with O-Line neglect.  The Jets also have 4 first-rounders the next two years and a shitload of cap space (well, obviously, given the lack of talent on the roster).

The Jets blew it with Darnold after years of bad drafting, so they'll pay that for this year.  It's also possible that if the Jets do move on from Darnold, he'll have success elsewhere.  The only light is that this team has needed a wake up call and a rebuild for a long-time.  They've been patchwork teams stitched together to be competitive on the backs of good team building many years ago.  It's all gone downhill, but they just happen to be the worst team in a year with a great QB prospect in the upcoming draft and a GM that cares about the O-Line.  If they get the #1 overall, it could work out.  BUT, the same organizational issues will continue to plague the team unless they take a long hard look in the mirror about how the ownership-GM-coaching structure works.  Ownership meddling and having too much input on His when they don't know what they're doing is a problem.  Stupid shit like ownership taking calls from Peyton Manning and being convinced to hire Adam Gase while the GM gives Le'veon Bell a big contract is the type of nonsense that the #1 pick sure as hell won't be able to fix.  Likewise, the poor ownership have often taken shortcuts in coaching hires.  This one, hopefully in sync with Douglas, will mean a good head coach eager to work with a young QB and a ton of picks.

Of course having said this, the clowns running the team will probably now give Gase a contract extension or something.  Or fire everyone and hire Bill O'Brien as Head Coach and GM.
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Offline IanZG

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Re: The NFL Thread
« Reply #57182 on: October 14, 2020, 08:31:33 am »
Yep, when you think they're moving forward they're moving backwards instead, Bell cost them a fair bit too in wages didn't he, Jets to go 0-16 this season, can't see a win anywhere.

They have to play the Dolphins twice and the Chargers once. Those are the only games I can see them maybe winning, even though both teams are well ahead of them. Maybe the Browns if they start imploding towards the end of the season or the Pats rest their starters in the last game... In any case, the #1 draft pick should be firmly in their grasp.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2020, 08:33:06 am by IanZG »

Offline voodoo ray

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Re: The NFL Thread
« Reply #57183 on: October 14, 2020, 08:55:14 am »
going 0-16 is hard. I wouldn't be rushing out to put any money on that happening.

Offline IanZG

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Re: The NFL Thread
« Reply #57184 on: October 14, 2020, 08:57:14 am »
going 0-16 is hard. I wouldn't be rushing out to put any money on that happening.

Yeah, I thought the same about the Dolphins and Bengals last season and they both ended up winning multiple games.

Offline voodoo ray

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Re: The NFL Thread
« Reply #57185 on: October 14, 2020, 09:03:54 am »
sounds like the titans destroyed the bills last night. didn't see that result coming but it also sounds like turnovers made a difference as they always do.

Offline ALPH1217

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Re: The NFL Thread
« Reply #57186 on: October 14, 2020, 02:02:10 pm »
Bell released.  Good for him.  He can sign with a contender.

Adam Gase continues to defy all expectations.
Gase made it clear he didn't want Bell but obviously got overruled. That was an outlandish contract given by a club in complete disarray and inept ownership.

Offline skipper757

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Re: The NFL Thread
« Reply #57187 on: October 14, 2020, 02:44:15 pm »
Gase made it clear he didn't want Bell but obviously got overruled. That was an outlandish contract given by a club in complete disarray and inept ownership.

The owners wanted Gase (thanks Peyton), but I didn't really know if the previous GM Mike MacCagnan wanted him.  The GM knew that he needed to shore up the talent given all the bad drafting so he started handing out big contracts left and right in 2019.  It had worked before for the Jets, but that was when the overall talent level was higher (can't just sign Bell, Mosley, etc and immediately fix everything).  But clearly there was a problem as MacCagnan was fired after free agency and the draft, and Joe Douglas brought in (with Gase's approval I believe).  There was clearly a misalignment already just a few months of MacCagnan and Gase working together.  It was a terrible set up.  Both the coaches and the GM making decisions and reporting to ownership.

The ownership meddling and the entire process of how the 2019 offseason played out further doomed this team.  I don't even mind the Bell contract especially given the lack of support Darnold had.  With a QB on a rookie contract, you might as well give him a supporting cast.  But the hiring of Gase, the FA and draft strategy that followed, and the firing of the GM right after never gave this team a chance.  Gase went 7-9 last year with a soft schedule, but a better-run team would've figured out the GM/HC dynamic long before spring/summer 2019 and possibly made the playoffs.  More importantly, they would've had a long-term sustainable plan.

The Bell contract was nothing egregious on its own, given the young QB with a rookie contract needing a supporting cast.  If a better-run team had made the deal, they would've almost certainly made it work (though it's questionable that any RB at that age should get that big of a contract, but that's another discussion).  But everything else surrounding it made it easily one of the worst deals.  If the Jets had fired MacCagnan along with Bowles, hired a new GM in early 2019, brought in a coach to work with said GM, drafted OT/WR instead of DT, and then signed Bell with everyone on the same page, it would've never come down to this mess, and Darnold could be enjoying a good supporting cast and a coach that can get the most out of him.

There was quite a bit of optimism after 2018 with Bowles being let go, a young Darnold showing some flashes, and cap room to boot.  But it's clear the ownership had no clue what they were doing (neither did the GM quite frankly).  Pretty much everything that followed ended up being a mess.
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Offline voodoo ray

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Re: The NFL Thread
« Reply #57188 on: October 14, 2020, 02:54:40 pm »
I don't remember them getting shit for drafting williams when it happened, it seemed like a case of 'just take the best player available' at the time.

The Gase hiring was an odd one at the time and Bell seemed a little like a luxury they weren't in a position to make the most of.

Offline skipper757

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Re: The NFL Thread
« Reply #57189 on: October 14, 2020, 03:48:54 pm »
I don't remember them getting shit for drafting williams when it happened, it seemed like a case of 'just take the best player available' at the time.

The Gase hiring was an odd one at the time and Bell seemed a little like a luxury they weren't in a position to make the most of.

I agree with you.  The Williams pick and the BPA approach isn't necessarily a bad idea in isolation, but a long-term neglect of the offensive side of the ball needed to be addressed, especially when the Jets just took a QB #3 overall the year before.  BPA is also a luxury sometimes, and it was clear the Jets had a lot of holes on offense that they needed to think about with a young QB.

I like Quinnen Williams as a player, and I enjoyed watching him at Alabama.  He really did live in the backfield sometimes and blew up a lot of plays.  But the neglect on the O-Line and talent level on offense was pretty deep.  It's always easier in hindsight, but it's also fairly intuitive to want to support Darnold, which the Jets didn't really do with that pick.  If the Jets had a decent O-Line and some playmakers on offense, Williams as BPA works.  But problems ran deeper than that.  They'd also been taking the BPA approach for years with high picks (like Jamal Adams and Leonard Williams, both of whom were considered good value for their pick #).  They're good players, but they also meant a lack of offensive support leading up to the Darnold pick, which made the Quinnen Williams pick worse when taken all in with previous decisions.

The Bell signing was also a luxury, but at least they could've gotten a HC and GM that aligned well and that they could make good decisions on weapons for Darnold (whether that involved Bell or not).
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Offline Statto Red

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Re: The NFL Thread
« Reply #57190 on: October 14, 2020, 05:53:51 pm »
They have to play the Dolphins twice and the Chargers once. Those are the only games I can see them maybe winning, even though both teams are well ahead of them. Maybe the Browns if they start imploding towards the end of the season or the Pats rest their starters in the last game... In any case, the #1 draft pick should be firmly in their grasp.

Jets can't even beat a team with a 3rd string QB in a home game, who was on the practice quad a few days before that game, Gase was the same clusterfuck of a coach when he was in Miami only has 1 winning season, he got rid of the talent the Dolphins had then, Ajayi will thank Gase for trading him as he now has a SB ring.

Even though they've only won once, Chargers they're everything the Jets are not, a decent team, Chargers have had a pretty brutal start, including Chiefs, Saints, Bucs, Panthers. Dolphins have just battered the Niners in the Niners backyard, Dolphins loses have been against the Patriots, Bills & Seahawks all good teams
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Offline voodoo ray

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Re: The NFL Thread
« Reply #57191 on: October 14, 2020, 07:09:04 pm »
Jets can't even beat a team with a 3rd string QB in a home game, who was on the practice quad a few days before that game, Gase was the same clusterfuck of a coach when he was in Miami only has 1 winning season, he got rid of the talent the Dolphins had then, Ajayi will thank Gase for trading him as he now has a SB ring.

Even though they've only won once, Chargers they're everything the Jets are not, a decent team, Chargers have had a pretty brutal start, including Chiefs, Saints, Bucs, Panthers. Dolphins have just battered the Niners in the Niners backyard, Dolphins loses have been against the Patriots, Bills & Seahawks all good teams

the chargers are also the chargers. for example, see their most recent game.

Offline Statto Red

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Re: The NFL Thread
« Reply #57192 on: October 14, 2020, 07:30:14 pm »
the chargers are also the chargers. for example, see their most recent game.

I still expect the Chargers to beat the Jets, the Jets are incompetent.
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Re: The NFL Thread
« Reply #57193 on: October 14, 2020, 07:48:12 pm »
I still expect the Chargers to beat the Jets, the Jets are incompetent.

they should beat the jets, sure. but it wouldn't surprise me if it was close and the chargers managed to charger it up somehow.

they even stopped cleveland's first attempt at going 0-16.




In good news, the pro bowl isn't happening this season.

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Re: The NFL Thread
« Reply #57194 on: October 14, 2020, 07:50:37 pm »
Great posts about the Jets. I learn so much about the NFL in this thread. You seem to know your stuff, so do mind explaining why some teams don’t manage to draft well while other teams seem to do great in the drafts? It can’t be that difficult to spot a decent player in the first round?

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Re: The NFL Thread
« Reply #57195 on: October 14, 2020, 08:38:59 pm »
Great posts about the Jets. I learn so much about the NFL in this thread. You seem to know your stuff, so do mind explaining why some teams don’t manage to draft well while other teams seem to do great in the drafts? It can’t be that difficult to spot a decent player in the first round?

Even if you get everything right with your picks, you can still get busts from them, so you end up in a vicious cycle of needing the subsequent picks to hit and thus you get teams forcing or reaching for picks to address a need, whereas the team with a better history of drafting can afford the misses or more likely can opt for BPA and ease players into their team reducing the chance of them being a bust in the first place.

Just look at our own transfer approach compared with others or even with ourselves in the past, we look for players that fit the squad, have the right attitude and we can also give them time to settle in too if needed and as a result we end up with less misses in the process.

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Re: The NFL Thread
« Reply #57196 on: October 14, 2020, 08:41:50 pm »
Great posts about the Jets. I learn so much about the NFL in this thread. You seem to know your stuff, so do mind explaining why some teams don’t manage to draft well while other teams seem to do great in the drafts? It can’t be that difficult to spot a decent player in the first round?

Thanks, i know a bit of stuff but others know more than i do, i enjoy watching the NFL, just know the Jets are a circus.

BTW the NFL have cancelled the Pro Bowl for this season.

 
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Re: The NFL Thread
« Reply #57197 on: October 15, 2020, 03:55:38 am »
Some ramblings and drivel from me on draft success but there are a few factors that can affect draft success vs. failure.  The draft system of college players vs. academy players can make it difficult to assess the talent level and NFL fit.

The overall structure of the team, starting from ownership and all the way through the entire organization will have an affect.  Specifically, having alignment on GM, coaches, scouts, etc will make it a lot easier to do a good job assessing fit.  Part of problem is also stability, particularly with the coaching staff.  Given the very high turnover of coaches (and GMs), having a good plan for talent identification and development can be difficult.  For example, when QB Jason Campbell was drafted by Washington, he had different coordinators every year in college and then three different coordinators in Washington early in his career.  That's a lot of development potential that could've been stifled.  Coaching turnover and systemic changes can lead to success, but it can also lead to recent draft picks losing their way on their current team.  Jonathan Vilma had won defensive rookie of the year with the Jets as the middle linebacker in a 4-3 defense.  But then the Jets hired Eric Mangini, who wanted to run the 3-4 defense.  Vilma was not a good fit for that defense and he was traded away to the Saints.  The Jets did fine without him, but it's an interesting question as to whether or not the pick was a success or failure for the team.  Head coaches have to adapt and adopt different coaches with different systems, but having a long-term plan at the top helps (after all, coordinator turnover is a part of the game).  But when GMs, head coaches, and coordinators are constantly moving in and out, it becomes hard to build anything properly.

The quarterback position is the most scrutinized as it's the important (and expensive) position.  The basic development model is to draft a young QB, and while on his rookie contract, load up the team with talent to support him.  This allows the team to have a chance to be successful, for the quarterback to develop properly, and for the good usage of the salary cap.  When the quarterback gets his long-term contract extension, the team knows that future cap space will take a hit, and thus, they'll have less flexibility in keeping and bringing in top tier talent to help.  But hopefully by that point, the quarterback has developed to a level that he can elevate others, and not rely on having expensive talent everywhere to keep up.  Once you have your long-term option at QB, you have to be more creative with free agency, draft picks, and trades.  You know your QB can elevate the players around him, so you don't necessarily need top picks and expensive free agents to get production.  It becomes a two-way street of matching perhaps underutilized talent with a QB that can make others better.  It definitely makes drafting easier, as you can find hidden gems that can work with the QB.  Case in point, the recent articles touting the Pittsburgh Steelers' success in finding WRs:

Mike Wallace (3rd round), Emmanuel Sanders (3rd round), Antonio Brown (6th round), Martavis Bryant (4th round), JuJu Smith-Schuster (2nd round), Diontae Johnson (3rd round) and now Chase Claypool (2nd round).  James Washington (2nd round) could still have a role to play.  No first round picks there.  Impressive.

But what's the common thread?  It's Ben Roethlisberger and Mike Tomlin.  It's stability at the ownership level down to the coach but also the QB.  Now imagine if Mason Rudolph was the quarterback for all of these guys, and he was getting a different head coach and OC every 2 years.  I don't think people would be as excited by the Steelers' WR talent evaluation as those guys would never be as successful.  As far as offensive talent evaluation goes, the quarterback, like the staff above him, has a huge role to play.  Guys like Davante Adams, Jordy Nelson, Rob Gronkowski, Julian Edelman, Antonio Gates, etc aren't first rounders either.  Didn't hold back their offenses that's for sure.  There's talent and ability there of course, but fit with the franchise QB makes them smash hits.  Teams that lack stable QB play will also find it difficult to have draft success on offense as their QB is unable to unlock the potential of their WRs/TEs (and OLs/RBs may not look as good as they could).

But how do teams even find QBs in the first place?  They're important, and they make drafting/free agency easy for the team, and they can even make non-elite coaches and organizations look like geniuses.  But finding them is tough, and teams will need to scout players for the system they play in, injuries, and ability/production in a crazy college environment.

-System (focused on QBs)

For any position, evaluating the college talent and the system they play in and assessing how they fit into the pro team is an absolute must.  For QBs, it's the ultimate goal of a team.  But college football is complicated.  There are 120+ FBS teams (the highest division of college football), broken into several conferences (of which the Power 5 conferences, ACC, Big 10, Big 12, Pac 12, and SEC have by far the most highly-rated talent coming out of high school).  Below that, there's the FCS, Division II, Division III, and other lower divisions.  These teams are a lot more varied in the systems they have and type of schemes they run.  Some teams play much closer to traditional NFL teams, but others can be very different.  Given the massive talent disparity in college football (and even among the Power 5 schools), teams have been looking for edges.  Traditional powerhouse college teams tended to favor good offensive lines, good running game, and solid QB play to pair with a strong defense.  Their offensive schemes tend to be more similar to those of NFL teams, so quarterbacks on these teams with NFL potential (physical and technical ability) are highly sought after, with teams believing they can transition best to NFL teams.  However, not every team in college can have this type of talent, so teams run "gimmicky" offenses that allow them to win some games.  Texas Tech under Mike Leach was famous for the Air Raid offense, which was a spread offense predicated along spacing of playmakers on the outside and accurate QBs (often lacking top-level NFL arm and other physical attributes).  It led to some crazy stat lines, but those QBs were never NFL caliber.  The team lacked NFL talent compared to other schools but had good seasons.  But more schools started to embrace some of these aspects of the spread and Air Raid offenses to bolster their play, regardless of talent level.  This ended up with more NFL-caliber QBs playing in these kinds of offenses all over.  It also led to quarterbacks that may have not been NFL-ready at all (e.g. those that run a lot) be given opportunities in easy pass-friendly offenses to hone their passing skills.

It led to an interesting phenomenon among QB talents (to name a few below);
-Jared Goff (air raid at Cal)
-Pat Mahomes (air raid at Texas Tech)
-Colin Kaepernick (pistol offense at Nevada)
-Baker Mayfield (air raid at Texas Tech and Oklahoma)
-Kyler Murray (air raid at Oklahoma)
-Jalen Hurts (air raid at Oklahoma)
-Mitchell Trubisky (didn't take snaps under center at UNC)
-Joe Burrow (a Joe Brady-designed spread offense using LSU's top-tier talent to form mismatches and taking full advantage of option plays)

These guys have NFL talent, but they didn't play in your conventional offense.  So what do you do?  Well, the NFL has been pushing the "QB whisperer" coaches very hard.  Teams have to develop QBs, so they look for coaches that can work with these QBs to get the most out of their talent.  Expecting them to be able to play like game managers from the early 2000s while the team runs the ball for 3 yards on first down every series is not realistic (in 2000, there were 23 1,000-yard rushers and in 2005, there were 10 RBs that received 300+ carries; in 2017 and 2018, fewer than 10 1000-yard rushers and only 1 RB that received 300+ carries each year; those numbers did see an uptick in 2019).  Many of these QBs don't even have much experience as passers at the collegiate level.  So teams have to meet them halfway:  to continue to develop their skills while simultaneously making them as comfortable early on as possible.  The Cardinals hiring Kliff Kingsbury is the most extreme example of this.  He himself played at Texas Tech years ago and is well-versed in spread/air raid concepts.  As a college coach, he was known for his work with offenses and QBs, having worked with Case Keenum, Johnny Manziel, Baker Mayfield, Davis Webb, and Pat Mahomes.  However, as a head coach at Texas Tech, he wasn't particularly good.  He had a losing record and was let go.  He had accepted the USC offensive coordinator job but then immediately resigned and took the Cardinals job.  There's nothing that indicates that he is qualified to be an NFL coach, except his work with QBs.  With Kyler Murray as the likely #1 pick, the Cardinals wanted a coach that knew how to get the best out of Air Raid QBs, so they gambled on a mediocre college head coach.

But this isn't too different to what Sean McVay did with Goff (scheming guys open for him), or Harbaugh getting Kaepernick comfortable (Niners running some of the plays he ran at Nevada), or Doug Pedersen getting Carson Wentz (coming from a FCS school) comfortable by utilizing the RPO (run-pass option).  NFL teams are now happy to line up in the Shotgun, spreading the field, utilizing backs, tight ends, etc as receivers, not using full-backs, etc.  You can find the right coach first and then have them pick the QB or go the other way.  Just get a match.

Matching the quarterback to the right system (implemented by the right coach) makes QB selection better (hopefully), and will lead to success identification and development of other talent around him.

This also goes for the defense, but I'm way out of date on that.  All I know is that the 3-4 defense used to be a pain to draft for as few colleges ever ran that defense.  It required a nose tackle not as a rusher but as someone that takes on blocks in the middle of the 3 with two other DL that also mostly sucked up blocks to free linebackers to play the run and rush the QB.  A lot of college DL didn't fit this at all, so finding the right players could be difficult.

-Injuries

As part of any evaluation and hopefully success story, there's always the chance of injuries derailing everything.  Players could pick up all kinds of injuries in high school and college, and you hope they can put them behind them.  But it's never that easy.  For example, Curtis Martin suffered multiple long-term injuries in college.  People worried about his durability and physical prowess, especially in the late 90s era of power football.  He ended up being a 3rd round pick as a result of injury worries but had ten straight 1,000 yard seasons to begin his Hall of Fame career.  Willis McGahee tore his ACL, MCL, and PCL in a nasty injury in his final collegiate game.  The Bills took a chance on him in the late first round even with the injury and him missing a chunk of his rookie season.  He ended up with almost 10,000 yards from scrimmage.  On the other hand, Jahvid Best, who was explosive at Cal in college, had some injury issues, especially with a concussion.  He ended up suffering concussions early in his NFL career and was forced to retire early.  There are also players with clean injury records in college and that end up having injury prone careers.

Given the typical short NFL career, the relative lack of games in a season, and the need for smooth transitions and development early in one's career, injuries end up being huge problems.  Teams that evaluate players have to think about risks and how they might mitigate them.

-Actual Ability and Matching it to Production

It can be hard to evaluate college games when there are major levels of talent disparity.  Does a player look good because his team is filled with top-tier talent and many of his opponents' teams are not?  What about hidden gems at smaller schools where they're NFL-caliber but their teammates are not?  What about lower divisions like FCS?  How does one even evaluate performances when they're playing with or against almost no NFL-caliber players?  NFL teams will look at the physical profile (have to have NFL physicality) and then the technical and mental aspects (to take a page out of FM).  But is there ability affected by the talent level of teammates and coaches?  How do we account for that?  It can be hard.  Josh Allen, Jordan Love, Ben Roethlisberger, etc played at smaller schools in weaker FBS conferences, and they didn't always have the best numbers.  Some great seasons but also some not so great years.  But they have NFL physical traits.  If they also have good footwork, throwing mechanics, etc, maybe they were held back by less-than-stellar talent around them?  Their teams didn't necessarily have talent advantages either.  Or maybe technique issues can be fixed at the NFL level.  There's also Carson Wentz, who played at NDSU, the most dominant FCS team.  They've routinely beaten FBS teams.  Clearly the playing level of the team is high, but most of their normal competition are FCS teams that are significantly worse.  So is Wentz putting up good numbers because his team is just better?  It's like the Alabama question of the FCS (players on those teams producing great numbers because of the talent level difference between them and their opponents).  NFL teams have events like the Senior Bowl (to evaluate players in practices and in-game situations), the combine (the physical and mental side), and pro days (showing off physical traits and technique) to try to get a sense of the talent level.  They can look for college games where these players occasionally played against very good teams (maybe as underdogs) to see how they handle it.  But context still matters (if their O-Line is overmatched, the QB just won't look good).

There's also the aspect of college life and coaching.  It takes time to adjust to college life from high school.  College coaches aren't academy coaches and as much as they want to brag about developing NFL talent properly, they still have to win.  So they'll won't always make decisions like a U-18 coach would.  And that adds a layer to decipher for NFL teams.  A case for this:  Alvin Kamara and Trent Richardson

Alvin Kamara was a highly-touted high school player that went to Alabama.  But he ran into issues early in his time at Alabama (injuries and off the field problems) and ended up at a junior college.  He eventually transferred back into the SEC at Alabama's rivals, Tennessee.  But Tennessee has been an underperforming power for years and Kamara's coach, Butch Jones, didn't end up lasting long at the job.  Kamara had two seasons at Tennessee where he split carries with another back.  He was always productive when he played, but his numbers overall weren't eye-popping:  2,000 yards from scrimmage over 2 years.  The talent is there, but you can see the question marks:  Does he have character issues?  Does he have durability issues, hence the timeshare?  Why didn't he take over the job if he was productive when he played?  He ended up a third round pick, but he fit in brilliantly in New Orleans, which no surprise, had stability at head coach and QB.  He went into a great situation, split time with Mark Ingram (an arrangement he was used to) before taking the lead role and being a top 5 RB at the NFL level.  He has far outproduced what you'd expect after his time at Tennessee.  He might've only been a third-round pick, but it was a great situation for him.

Trent Richardson, a few years earlier, was also a star coming out of high school.  He got some playing time backing up Mark Ingram (funnily enough), before having a monster junior season:  2,000 yards from scrimmage in one year.  Called a sure-thing and top pick, everyone was wowed by him.  Yet, he was drafted by the Browns, traded to the Colts, and never came close to being an elite back.  His vision as a running back was heavily criticized.

So, how did the scouts get it so wrong?  Kamara's a better receiver (even limited time in college can show that), but why was Richardson a consensus top pick in his year and Kamara relegated to third round in his year?  Injuries?  Character concerns?  Production?  All kinds of questions.  Richardson ticked a lot of boxes, but it's clear he was flawed as a runner.  But did those flaws manifest itself in the NFL because of the situations he was in?  Or were they always there at Alabama but he was covered by his talented offensive line?  Did scouts notice his problems in college and thought they could be corrected?  For Kamara, was he held back by his stop-start college career?  Did Butch Jones under-utilize him?  Or maybe if they had different situations in the NFL, it could've turned out differently?

A more contemporary comparison could be Derrick Henry, who was drafted the year before Kamara.  Henry in his junior year at Alabama ran for 2,219 yards (that's insane) on 395 carries (also insane) in a 15-game season.  He even had a game with 46 carries.  He wasn't a great receiver (still isn't).  He was a second-round pick.  Did scouts worry about his durability given his workload?  His size (really big for a running back)?  His lack of receiving ability coming into a pass-heavy league?  His great offensive line at Alabama that can dominate the opposition?  Some people were skeptical of Henry (perhaps burned by Richardson a few years earlier).  But the Titans took their time giving him chances, and now he's a very good NFL player.  Was it the friendly situation in Tennessee?  If Henry had gone to a dysfunctional team and was expected to carry the load right away, could he have gone the same way as Richardson?  Bereft of confidence and baffling loss of ability?  Or was he always destined for stardom because he's just good at running the football while Richardson just isn't?

Is it possible that if Kamara ended up on the current version of the Jets, Henry on the Browns, and Richardson on the Steelers, that their careers would've completely been different?  Or is it as simple as Kamara good, Henry good, and Richardson bad?  If so, how did the scouts miss it?  If a really good team with a good GM and good coach had the opportunity to draft Richardson, would they have done it too, or would they have known?

There's always credit to well-run teams, but maybe everyone misses things, and occasionally, even good teams could be very wrong (and they are).  But they can do better overall than the poorly-run teams.

In conclusion of all nonsense I've written, I do think the organizational structure and stability at head coach can make the difference in talent evaluation (and stability at QB for drafting offense).  It provides a structure for players to have success.  Coaches and systems have to match the talent you're bringing in.  The QB position is the crown jewel and especially deserves the most thinking an organization needs to do for making the right moves.  Other positions will require similar thought.  Constantly transitioning in a chaotic situation will inevitably lead to draft picks failing, not necessarily because of the player being bad, but because of the negative environment for development.  Teams will have to evaluate players, taking into account injuries, ability, production, and other factors for fit.  Teams that are better run should have the upper hand in ensuring smooth transitions to the league.  But there's always mis-evaluations.  Good teams, on the whole, tend to do better avoiding those.  Or have found their franchise QBs so they can muck about in the draft for a few years and still be competitive.  Bad teams, on the other hand, need to fix organizational issues along with talent evaluation issues to improve.  Sometimes, they hit on the right coach and combine it with an existing QB/squad and it works for them.  Other times, they have build from the ground up, and it's long process.  Easier said than done though.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2020, 04:01:23 am by skipper757 »
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Offline KillieRed

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Re: The NFL Thread
« Reply #57198 on: October 15, 2020, 09:04:39 am »
Thanks, i know a bit of stuff but others know more than i do, i enjoy watching the NFL, just know the Jets are a circus.

BTW the NFL have cancelled the Pro Bowl for this season.

In normal years they should just have the team(s) selections and maybe an event/ceremony anyway. The game is ludicrous, an anachronism of a bygone age.
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Re: The NFL Thread
« Reply #57199 on: October 15, 2020, 09:05:52 am »
sounds like the titans destroyed the bills last night. didn't see that result coming but it also sounds like turnovers made a difference as they always do.

I came in here looking for the gif of Henry on Norman stiff-arm. I`m disappointed in you all.
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