Author Topic: Expectations, Knee Jerkism, Bitterness – It’s all got to stop  (Read 37604 times)

Offline MiserableP15

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After the Blackpool game’s highlights on TV last night, that legends programme came on with lo and behold, Kenny Dalglish as the legend in question. God he was unbelievable. That goal he creates where he pulls the ball out of the sky with one touch to get it out of his feet, away from the defender and facing the goal, and then with his second touch he releases Rush with a perfectly weighted through ball? Sheer class.
Can you imagine one of our boys trying that now? Kuyt for example? God love him but he could hardly trap a bag of cement 75% of the time let alone have the vision to pull off that move. I can honestly say the closest I’ve come to seeing that type of unplayable instinctive football between Liverpool players was Gerrard and Torres in their pomp. Younger fans only had that for one season, A lot of our 40+ supporters had it for years.

I was born in 77, so never really realised or understood just how good Liverpool were. I mean, how knowledgeable can you be at the ages of 10, 11 and 12 about the sheer quality of football you were witness to? From the age of about 15 onwards, I really started to grasp what football was about, by which time the domestic scene was being dominated by the team at OT and we were going through what can only be described as a barren spell. But growing up in that era made you appreciate what you had, it made you realise that success wasn’t a requirement, it was a blessing. You appreciated it all the more because of the failures that went before it. Souness unfortunately didn’t work out, with neither an attractive or highly successful team. Evans played wonderful football, but the team had no substance. Houllier’s team was hard to watch, but it won cups and put Liverpool back on the international scene. Throughout all this time I never actually truly believed that we would win the league. Whether it was the squad, the style of manager, the players or what I don’t know. I just didn’t feel we had the complete package. Then Rafa came in and ultimately committed the greatest success and biggest mistake of his managerial career in one night. He won the European Cup with Jerzy Dudek and Djimi Traore and made us all believe he was the man to with the league! That he nearly did it the season before he left still wasn’t enough for many, many Liverpool fans to give him more time, to have another go, to carry on building. And all this at a time when uncertainty and lack of investment crippled the club when it finally seemed we were on the cusp.

Expectation. 7th not good enough for a club like Liverpool? Well, face facts people, we’re probably going to end up worse off this season and that’s even if Kenny does a great job and gets the team playing again. What dismays me more than anything is the continuous knee jerk reactions by so many. In the last 24 hours I’ve seen posts that say FSG acted too slowly in getting rid of Roy, Kenny’s playing people out of position, last night’s result shows it’s not all Roy’s fault, and the best one – the squad needs 6 – 10 new players to make it competitive again. How people can say this is beyond me? We lose to a Blackpool team formed on teamwork, passion, togetherness and all for about one year of Steven Gerrard’s salary, yet people believe new players are the answer. I continually read how rubbish this Man Utd team is, yet it’s a team that’s sitting miles ahead in the league. And worst of all, this is a Liverpool team that contains over 60% of the players who so nearly won the league two years ago, yet is 6-10 players short of challenging again. Eh???????


What has been clearly shown, Kenny himself has said it, is that confidence is a magic thing in football. A good player with confidence can take on the world, a great player lacking it can shrink at the slightest adversity. Right now, this team, this team full of international class players, international captains in some cases, is lacking confidence. Having played under a system where keeping possession of the ball was seen as a crime, amid a period of our history when the fan base has never been stronger and against a turbulent backdrop of ownership, our players have become rigid with fear. Anyone who seriously thinks last night proves that Roy wasn’t to blame is either deluded, or works for the media. My internet dropped out for the last 10 minutes of the game last night so I had the misfortune of having to listen to the radio commentary. Within 3 minutes I must have heard them state that it proved it wasn’t Roy’s fault twice. Let me tell you, 30 minutes of our football last night showed me the difference Kenny has already brought to the team in terms of passing, movement, pressurising and possession, more than Roy managed to do in his entire time at Liverpool. Regardless of the result, there are already signs of improvement, yet for many it’s still not enough. So despite the fact that our away record is shocking, we had 10 men for much of the previous game, Blackpool were fully rested AND we had a number of injuries, it was criminal that we lost this game and is indicative of the severe problems Liverpool have.

I’ll say it again. EH????????? If we won this game it would have been fantastic, a real achievement for Kenny and the team given what’s gone before - I even said so myself. However I also sounded a note of caution that there was still a real possibility that we could still get only one or two points from the Blackpool and Bitters games regardless of the undoubted lift Kenny and Clarkey have given to the club. Maybe it’s the expectation thing again? Now that Kenny’s back, I don’t expect us to suddenly go on a 10 match winning streak, but what I do expect is a change in the style and play, and attitude of our players and fans.

I’ve already seen that change from the players, but unfortunately we as fans still seem to be in H + G mode, ready to stick the knife into anyone at the earliest opportunity, even ourselves. Our club is in a HEALTHY position again. Yes, that’s right, HEALTHY. We have little or no debt, which means with or without Champions League football we have a profit margin every year most clubs would kill for. We have a squad blessed with internationals who under the right guidance have shown they can play. We have a manager who believes in this club and knows how it should be run, and will be instrumental in our future whether it’s with him at the helm or someone else, and we have owners who have already gone some way in their six months of ownership to show willingness in not just re-engaging the supporters but running the club privately, quietly and professionally. Yet this still isn’t enough for many of you?

I love this club, and despite the fact I’m back where I was pre-Rafa – not expecting to win the league any time soon, I am still over the moon with how the last 2 weeks have gone. 2010 will go down as an annus horribilis as bad as any in Liverpool’s history, but out of it have come some positives. New owners, new direction and a new stable base from which we can once again build upon. The only thing left is for the supporters to get back to supporting the team, wholeheartedly, passionately and in victory and defeat. More than ever the media feed off the likes of RAWK, (the H + G internet terrorism has guaranteed that)  and just cannot wait to see the types of posts we’ve seen in the last 24 hours, so every single supporter has a responsibility to swallow a reality pill, remember what supporting a football club is all about and realise that we are now back in good and safe hands, and that through those hands, things will progress once more. The Holy Trinity is nearly repaired; unfortunately it’s us, the supporters, who are holding it back.
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Offline cornelius

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Re: Expectations, Knee Jerkism, Bitterness – It’s all got to stop
« Reply #1 on: January 13, 2011, 11:08:13 am »

Expectation. 7th not good enough for a club like Liverpool? Well, face facts people, we’re probably going to end up worse off this season and that’s even if Kenny does a great job and gets the team playing again.
I know we're not playing at our best right now but if we can't catch fucking Sunderland by the end of the season in this shite league then we may all as well accept that the game is up for LFC.

Offline TomDcs

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Re: Expectations, Knee Jerkism, Bitterness – It’s all got to stop
« Reply #2 on: January 13, 2011, 11:10:42 am »
Agree 100% with OP. We are losing our identity as supporters, we're not far off turning into a laughing stock off the field as well as on it. Improvements are needed, they will come in whatever form is decided by kenny and the powers above. Let's do our job and we might see some of these improvements on the pitch.

Offline robbie96

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Re: Expectations, Knee Jerkism, Bitterness – It’s all got to stop
« Reply #3 on: January 13, 2011, 11:16:45 am »
Saw this in another thread - thought it answered OP question :wave
A little off topic, but I have to agree with you on this particular point. I know that I am still hurting, and there must be other people like me.

I had always assumed beforehand - and I was stupid to assume - that Liverpool fans were some united family. If I went into a pub, and there was another Liverpool fan, then there would be automatic affinity. If I went to Anfield, the people sitting next to me were joined by the collective experience of cheering on the team. That was my faith.

The past year or so has broken that faith completely. I have seen fans refuse to support the protests against G&H, refuse to even take an interest in the issue. I have seen fans calling Rafa a fat Spanish waiter and support our ex-owners for replacing them. I have seen that Liverpool is a family divided. I guess there were always divisions, and I was just being naive. But now I find it hard to meet someone in the pub who's a Liverpool fan and assume there's a link there. Because I remember trying to interest people in the debt crisis, and them just saying "that's the way of the world through, innit mate?" or some such bollocks. I remember people saying "Great news that Rafa's gone, isn't it".

I used to see people in Liverpool shirts and think "aha, one of us". For the start of this season, I saw people in the standards chartered red shirt and thought: "one of them. FUCKING TWATS." That's the kind of psychological division that doesn't go away overnight. I have read accounts of former mining towns were communities were ripped down the middle into strikers and scabs, and 20 years on that doesn't go away. Okay, you might say that doesn't compare, that was more important. Fair enough, it's not exactly comparing like for like. But I'm saying that a similar issue applies: it's hard to heal a community once you've seen people willing to cross a picket line (or, the equivilant in this case, express tacit or explicit support for the G&H regime)

Yes, there are people who have done so much to help our cause, I am amazed by the work of many on here and in the SOS, and I am amazed at the hard work people have put in to save our club. They have done their bit. There are still good fans - there are still GREAT fans, there are still fighters. I know they're out there, and I am in massive admiration of them.

But when I meet Liverpool fans now, I ask: are these people who I worked with to help when the club was in danger? Are these the people I admire so much who did more than I ever could?
Or are these the people who worked against us, who couldn't give a shit about the ownership problems and were glad to see the back of Rafa in spite of the circumstances in which he was sacked?

The support is divided. There's a them and us attitude. It's sad, and I wish we could get through it. But we're still hurting.


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Bosingwa almost starts a riot by getting subbed and trudging off the pitch like a old border collie making his final trip to the vet.

Offline planet-terror

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Re: Expectations, Knee Jerkism, Bitterness – It’s all got to stop
« Reply #4 on: January 13, 2011, 11:17:40 am »
Good OP..
Its very easy to forget the shit weve been through in the last few years and how we were hours before possible implosion,only a few short months ago,
The old regime is gone,Hodgson is gone.
We need to stop all the blame culture we have descended  into ,Roy this Rafa that,Tom n Fkn Jerry this n that,
All the infighting and blaming wil drive us nuts.
CLEAN SLATE NEEDED.TIME TO MOVE ON
Time to return to our core values and as supporters do what we do best and support this MIghty Club.

« Last Edit: January 13, 2011, 11:19:56 am by planet--terror »
bollocks

Offline JoburgRed

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Re: Expectations, Knee Jerkism, Bitterness – It’s all got to stop
« Reply #5 on: January 13, 2011, 11:21:31 am »
hear hear
It's Gerrrraaaaaaarddddddddd......You beautyyyyy!

Offline Greg

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Re: Expectations, Knee Jerkism, Bitterness – It’s all got to stop
« Reply #6 on: January 13, 2011, 11:27:31 am »
In the last 24 hours I’ve seen posts that say FSG acted too slowly in getting rid of Roy, Kenny’s playing people out of position, last night’s result shows it’s not all Roy’s fault, and the best one – the squad needs 6 – 10 new players to make it competitive again. How people can say this is beyond me? We lose to a Blackpool team formed on teamwork, passion, togetherness and all for about one year of Steven Gerrard’s salary, yet people believe new players are the answer. I continually read how rubbish this Man Utd team is, yet it’s a team that’s sitting miles ahead in the league. And worst of all, this is a Liverpool team that contains over 60% of the players who so nearly won the league two years ago, yet is 6-10 players short of challenging again. Eh???????

I can’t see how you can ridicule people for saying that we need a lot of new players. The team that nearly won the league had Alonso, Mascherano, Benayoun, Arbeloa and Hyypia. They’ve not been replaced properly (I appreciate that’s easier said than done). Are you saying Aurelio is the same player he was 2 years ago? Is Carragher the same player? Even Dirk Kuyt – as appreciated as he was – was sometimes seen as one of the weakest links of the team at the time – whereas now, without really improving his own game, he’s now seen as one of our top players. Shows how much the team has declined. The players have aged, and they’ve got more pissed off with the decline around them, so even our top players have been dragged down. I think we need to rebuild. That’s my opinion. If you don’t think that, then fair enough, but you can’t tell me that I’m wrong.

As for FSG acting too slowly – I can see where people are coming form with that. With 97% of fans wanting Hodgson out, it’s amazing he lasted so long. Appointing Kenny is a great move, but it would have been more effective if had been done a month ago. Given time to Kenny to assess if the players could work in his system, and then have more time to identify and scout replacements. Understandable that you don’t want to criticise them, but you can’t deny it would have been better for the club.

Offline tinkertailor

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Re: Expectations, Knee Jerkism, Bitterness – It’s all got to stop
« Reply #7 on: January 13, 2011, 11:27:57 am »
Pretty much spot on.

I think everyone finds it hard to temper their reactions straight after a game but it's really important now that we get behind the team. Kenny says the team lacks confidence - he's right, of course - and one of the ways we can help is to ignore the niggling issues and get behind them whole-heartedly. After all, last night we played football with attacking intent, and with quality at times, which is a big improvement.

Offline Banquo's Ghost

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Re: Expectations, Knee Jerkism, Bitterness – It’s all got to stop
« Reply #8 on: January 13, 2011, 11:28:39 am »
Good opening post, well said.

The divisions of the last few years will heal. We will soon realise once again that it's not about the winning, it's about who we are. Liverpool Football Club is about a vision and a community that lives that vision.

Liverpool is not defined by the division we are in but by the people.
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Offline Davvo7

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Re: Expectations, Knee Jerkism, Bitterness – It’s all got to stop
« Reply #9 on: January 13, 2011, 11:31:33 am »
Agree with you mate.

We also need to getting right on the arseholes who post on here and challenge the bollocks as soon as they post. Can't believe I'm advocating us all becoming 'Mod's, but as one of them said in the auld arses thread, it's about everybody pulling together and challenging the sky fed, media driven ignorance and reclaiming our club.


CLEAN SLATE NEEDED.TIME TO MOVE ON
Time to return to our core values and as supporters do what we do best and support this MIghty Club.

Is right mate.
Boocoo dinky dau

Offline Samee

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Re: Expectations, Knee Jerkism, Bitterness – It’s all got to stop
« Reply #10 on: January 13, 2011, 11:33:32 am »
Take a fookin bow son. :wellin
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Offline MichaelA

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Re: Expectations, Knee Jerkism, Bitterness – It’s all got to stop
« Reply #11 on: January 13, 2011, 11:35:51 am »
I know we're not playing at our best right now but if we can't catch fucking Sunderland by the end of the season in this shite league then we may all as well accept that the game is up for LFC.

It might be up for you, especially with an attitude like that. Kenny has arrived to administer CPR, I'll be happy/relieved if he keeps us up this season.

Offline Stussy

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Re: Expectations, Knee Jerkism, Bitterness – It’s all got to stop
« Reply #12 on: January 13, 2011, 11:37:07 am »
I know we're not playing at our best right now but if we can't catch fucking Sunderland by the end of the season in this shite league then we may all as well accept that the game is up for LFC.

Nah mate, we carry on, sign new players, and start again next season.
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Offline Grobbelrevell

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Re: Expectations, Knee Jerkism, Bitterness – It’s all got to stop
« Reply #13 on: January 13, 2011, 11:47:49 am »
I'll be happy/relieved if he keeps us up this season.

Is about the way I'm looking at things right now. Keep us in the division and build from there in the summer. Anything above that will be a bonus.

Great opening post by the way.

As is this:

A little off topic, but I have to agree with you on this particular point. I know that I am still hurting, and there must be other people like me...

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Offline Sachin4ever

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Re: Expectations, Knee Jerkism, Bitterness – It’s all got to stop
« Reply #14 on: January 13, 2011, 11:49:21 am »
Very good.... :wave. Was waiting for a thread like this to come up to bring some positivity.. thanks mate...
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Offline Junkle

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Re: Expectations, Knee Jerkism, Bitterness – It’s all got to stop
« Reply #15 on: January 13, 2011, 11:58:58 am »
bravo!!!
The weakest link in the team is our main man BR.

Offline Sachin4ever

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Re: Expectations, Knee Jerkism, Bitterness – It’s all got to stop
« Reply #16 on: January 13, 2011, 11:59:37 am »
I can’t see how you can ridicule people for saying that we need a lot of new players. The team that nearly won the league had Alonso, Mascherano, Benayoun, Arbeloa and Hyypia. They’ve not been replaced properly (I appreciate that’s easier said than done). Are you saying Aurelio is the same player he was 2 years ago? Is Carragher the same player? Even Dirk Kuyt – as appreciated as he was – was sometimes seen as one of the weakest links of the team at the time – whereas now, without really improving his own game, he’s now seen as one of our top players. Shows how much the team has declined. The players have aged, and they’ve got more pissed off with the decline around them, so even our top players have been dragged down. I think we need to rebuild. That’s my opinion. If you don’t think that, then fair enough, but you can’t tell me that I’m wrong.

As for FSG acting too slowly – I can see where people are coming form with that. With 97% of fans wanting Hodgson out, it’s amazing he lasted so long. Appointing Kenny is a great move, but it would have been more effective if had been done a month ago. Given time to Kenny to assess if the players could work in his system, and then have more time to identify and scout replacements. Understandable that you don’t want to criticise them, but you can’t deny it would have been better for the club.

Bennoyoun has never been a regular starter mate.... so dont include him... Our defense even without arby and sami were third best last season.. so they have not become very bad in space of six months..  I feel lucas is doing a very good job in DM so masch loss may not be a big one. As for kuyt, he just finished the world cup on a very high note which tells u that he is still good as he ever was..  So there is no point in comparing his prevous years mate....

Op is not saying we dont need many new players.. He is just saying that we dont 6-8 players that people are banging on in most of the threads...

In the last 24 hours I’ve seen posts that say FSG acted too slowly in getting rid of Roy, Kenny’s playing people out of position, last night’s result shows it’s not all Roy’s fault, and the best one – the squad needs 6 – 10 new players to make it competitive again. How people can say this is beyond me? We lose to a Blackpool team formed on teamwork, passion, togetherness and all for about one year of Steven Gerrard’s salary, yet people believe new players are the answer.

This is what he is trying to say mate. If blackpool can beat us with team costing one tenth of our team, then why cant we ??

As for saying FSG acted too slowly, they themselves have said they are learing about football. So they might have wanted to deferred these decisions to the season end which is perfectly understandable... But because of our crisis, they were forced to make a urgent decision.. So i think its not fair...
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Offline dernaroy

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Re: Expectations, Knee Jerkism, Bitterness – It’s all got to stop
« Reply #17 on: January 13, 2011, 12:00:11 pm »

Hi, I’ve been lurking about Rawk for a few years now but as yet have never made a post.  I've been wanting to make this point for a while now. I don't have any rights at the moment as a new poster to start a new thread so I thought this was the most relevant recent thread to make the point. I hope the OP doesn't mind!


The team that Rafa built.

One of the biggest points being made by pundits and by some of our own fans during Hodgson’s reign was that Roy was left with a depleted squad and a group of poor Bentez signings. Rafa constantly came in for criticism as those with an axe to grind sought to get the boot in at every opportunity. It was an argument that annoyed me greatly being a huge Rafa fan and I was disappointed that there were not more voices out there putting forward an objective version of the situation. 

As time went on through Roy’s tenure and unbelievably poor results became more frequent I tried to analyse the situation, without any bias towards Rafa, to see if I could find points in favour of Roy. Without doubt some of the players and certainly the team as a whole looked (looks) a shadow of its former self, we seem to have almost zero options from the bench and we were being dominated all over the field by teams we should be considering inferior to us.

Could it be that maybe Rafa did leave Roy with a poor squad?

I quickly realised that some of the media barrage had burrowed its way into my subconscious and I would need to fight against it.

So what was the answer then?  There’s no doubt that Roy made some poor decisions as manager and certainly took the team backwards. Off the field also he never once conducted himself like a Liverpool manager and simply put, he just was not the man for the job and never would be. But our frustration (and hatred in some cases) towards Roy had given us a focal point, a reason for the demise, someone to blame and it caused us to forget something much more significant and destructive. Perhaps we wanted to forget.

It seems so long ago now that we were all hanging on every word of the Guardian blog waiting to see how the fate of Liverpool Football Club would be decided by non football men in the High Court in London. It was an incredibly painful and uncertain time for the club, a time we can be forgiven for wanting to forget. Perhaps when we rejoiced at the arrival of new responsible owners we believed it was now over, we had seen the back of Hicks and Gillett. Unfortunately their legacy lives on and could be seen as recently as last night in the 2-1 defeat to Blackpool. Even though we now have a man in charge who has, united the fans, created a great atmosphere around the club and is a man worthy of calling our manager we need to know and remember exactly how we got to this point so that we can begin to rebuild and move forward.

The most important point that we need to remember is that, due to their inherently disastrous business plan, the final 18-24 months of Hicks’ and Gillett’s reign saw the team and squad unashamedly and systematically stripped of value.

During the 08/09 season this was what we and many in the football world considered to be the best team in the Premier League and one of the best in Europe:


                                  Reina

Arbeloa      Carragher        Skrtel          Aurelio

                         
                        Alonso       Mascherano

                               
                                 Gerard
Kuyt                                                         Riera/Benayoun

                                  Torres


That United would go on to just pip this team to the title was down to their greater squad depth and it could be argued one or two naïve mistakes on our part.

Rafa had spent four seasons carefully constructing this team from a modest budget (modest in terms of competing with the top clubs in Europe) with a view to delivering number 19. I believe, as I’m sure many of you do also, that he would have eventually delivered it had someone like John Henry been in charge back then rather than the parasites we were inflicted with instead.

During the 09/10 season, when defending the quality of Rafa’s team, the argument was put forward by myself and many others that ‘we had only lost one player’ and the title challenging team still remained. This argument was similarly used at the start of this season as a stick to beat Roy Hodgson with only this time it had increased to there being only two players missing from the title challenging side. Unfortunately that is far from accurate. Since we finished second in the league in 2009 with our highest ever Premier League points total the team has fallen in quality sharply. This is not just due to the team having been largely stripped of value but, equally criminal, the lack of investment in up and coming players able to challenge the places of those now on the other side of their best playing days. Let’s look at Rafa’s team individually compared to what we have now.

Reina. An absolute Godsend and the only player I would argue that we still have at the same ability as the 08/09 season. It’s all downhill from here.

ArbeloaSOLD. Arguably replaced at the time with a much better player. Johnson would add a greater attacking threat to the team and was bought to help breakdown those teams which would ‘park the bus’ at Anfield so that we could gather those extra few points which would eventually take us over the line. Unfortunately for Glen he came in at least one season too late and the overall demise of the team has only served to highlight some of his defensive frailties, frailties we rarely saw from Arbeloa. I’m sure Arbeloa did not want to sit on the bench but you could certainly have argued that had we been in a better financial position we would have been able to hang onto Arbeloa.

Carragher. He was on top of his game in 08/09 but unfortunately time is beginning to catch up with the 32 year old legend and so far this season we have not seen enough to suggest he can be easily replaced from within the squad.

Skrtel. Was another of many who had a great season in 08/09, he was a defensive rock but he has not been the same player since that clash of heads with Carragher away to Spurs at the start of last season. Maybe it knocked his confidence but he has been at the centre of some terrible goals we’ve conceded this year. This is not necessarily down to Hicks and Gillett, sometimes players fall out of form, it may just be bad luck.

Aurelio. Due to countless frustrating injuries he is a shadow of the player that kept Ronaldo so quiet in the 4-1 demolishing of United at Old Trafford, though he is of course still technically excellent. Again a sign of the lack of investment when he was replaced by a youngster in Insua who although a promising prospect was not totally equipped yet to step up and be relied upon at that level. Insua was then replaced by… well I’ll leave it there.

AlonsoSOLD. So much has been said and written about the sale of Alonso and perhaps some would argue too much significance was given to it as a reason for our decline. It was however certainly a sign of things to come, he has never been replaced.

MascheranoSOLD. A very similar situation to Alonso. Although Lucas has definitely grown as a player this year and has been one of the few shining lights there is no doubt that the little general (or an adequate replacement) is sorely missed in midfield.

Kuyt. Another player who’s best playing days are unfortunately behind him. In the 08/09 season Dirk would score 12 league goals along with 9 assists. No wide player outside of Ronaldo would match that. The 30 year old’s touch has let him down on numerous occasions this season and he has been much less of an attacking threat. In his position we should have been in investing in two or three young players who would challenge him and eventually take over.

Gerard. The best player in the country by miles in 08/09, he was instrumental in everything we did that year and he was on top of his game. I can’t criticise him as much as others, I still believe he gives 100% every time he pulls on the jersey but he has seen the quality around him disintegrate from a top European team to a mid-table Premier League team.

Riera/BenayounSOLD. I included both here as I could never decid which was best in that position, both offered something different. Both were sold in bemusing circumstances. After a great season Riera went backwards where an attitude problem surprisingly crept in, perhaps Rafa should be praised for getting so much out of possibly an average player in his first season before moving him on. I was aghast when I found out Benayoun was being sold to Chelsea. He was an absolute gem who, although may not have had the consistency to start every game, could be relied on to find that little extra or provide that spark to create a goal. Unfortunately Babel has not materialised into the all-round player who may now have made this position his own. Again, investment was needed.

Torres. What can I say, 08/09 he was the best striker in the world and he was at our club. Many are now quick to jump on the Sky bandwagon and throw about those hollow platitudes that we all too often hear. But they don’t make players like Torres anymore; loyal, determined, respectful, passionate and most of all he is world class.  His injuries have set him back and he too has had to watch as his quality of teammate has gone drastically downhill. If rumours are to be believed his injury plagued lack of form may even be partly the fault of the club, again due to the stress of being on the verge of financial ruin. He also has the pressure of being the only top class striker at the club due to a lack of investment in a back-up.


So this is where we are at. This is Hicks’ and Gillett’s legacy and there is no easy fix. We have a mid-table squad dotted with bits of quality. It is in desperate need of overhaul and investment. Hopefully we will be able to hold onto the little quality we have and can build around that.

As I watched us succumb to a second 2-1 defeat of the season to newly promoted Blackpool I sharply realised that Kenny did not have a magic wand as some of us had hoped. We need to accept and come to terms with this and with the state of the squad so that we have the patience to give Kenny, John Henry, Comolli and whoever is given the job as permenant manager in the summer the time to rebuild this great club. Until then, be prepared, it may get worse before it gets better but always remember we have our club back.
i admireyour optimism but if you honestly believe we will finish even in the top 6 this year , then you my friend (im at pains to say this ) are deluded.

Offline The Rawker

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Re: Expectations, Knee Jerkism, Bitterness – It’s all got to stop
« Reply #18 on: January 13, 2011, 12:01:42 pm »
I think that a club that has so many fans outside of the city, divisions are inevitable.  You’re never going to get consensus on everything.  I think that there are a good many ‘fairweather’ fans out there. And the bottom line is that they don’t care that much. In my opinion, that’s up to them. As long as they are contributing financially to the club. And that’s key.  We need their money, let’s be realistic about it. Whether it’s for shirts or souvenirs when they occasionally go to Anfield.

One of the biggest divisions for me is this hierarchy of supporters, and who has the right to be a fan.  There are disparaging remarks about daytrippers, woolybacks etc.  Again, I’d love to be a Liverpudlian, I love the city and the people, but I’m not.  But I am a passionate fan – probably as much as many Scousers are.  For me the world wide fan base and the global appeal of Liverpool mean its inevitable that you will get ‘supporters’ who don’t have the same commitment, zeal or passion as the rest of us.  But that doesn’t necessarily make them ‘twats’.  I’d rather those twats were contributing to our finances than to our competitors.

I grew up in Northern Ireland and I started supporting Liverpool when I was 6 (1977).  Supporters over there (I live in England now) are mad for English teams and especially Liverpool and our 'friends' over the M62.  But there’s also Leeds Utd Supporters clubs, even lots of Nottingham Forest fans!

The reasons for this are two fold (and I can only speak for myself here) firstly the Northern Ireland league is (well certainly back in my day) riddled with sectarianism and supporting one team over another automatically allied you with one side or another. Suprisingly there are many people over there who hated all that bollocks.

I grew up in Londonderry/Derry, and ‘Derry City’ were banned for many years for sectarian violence.  The name in itself had sectarian connotations so I felt unable to support it because I was a protestant.  Lots of my mates supported Liverpool, we were absolutely flying so it was natural for me to do likewise.  Secondly, bluntly, our league was, and still is, shit.

Bottom line – as long as there’s a hardcore, there’s SoS and other likeminded organisations ensure that there’s enough fans around to support and fight for their club (I’m in SoS and was at the march before the Blackpool game along with another mate who flew over from Derry) then we’ll be ok.  The issue of fundamental importance is that we try get rid of the negativity that’s about the place.  I know this will be impossible because some people are naturally negative in other aspects of their lives.

The time has come to unite behind the team.  Cheer them to the fucking rafters.  Trust our manager.

And….

CHEER UP A BIT FOR FUCK SAKE!  :)
Fuck it all and fuckin' no regrets

\m/

Offline xerxes1

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Re: Expectations, Knee Jerkism, Bitterness – It’s all got to stop
« Reply #19 on: January 13, 2011, 12:07:16 pm »

So this is where we are at. This is Hicks’ and Gillett’s legacy and there is no easy fix. We have a mid-table squad dotted with bits of quality. It is in desperate need of overhaul and investment. Hopefully we will be able to hold onto the little quality we have and can build around that.

As I watched us succumb to a second 2-1 defeat of the season to newly promoted Blackpool I sharply realised that Kenny did not have a magic wand as some of us had hoped. We need to accept and come to terms with this and with the state of the squad so that we have the patience to give Kenny, John Henry, Comolli and whoever is given the job as permenant manager in the summer the time to rebuild this great club. Until then, be prepared, it may get worse before it gets better but always remember we have our club back.


A fair assessment.
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Offline Torpedo Tommy

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Re: Expectations, Knee Jerkism, Bitterness – It’s all got to stop
« Reply #20 on: January 13, 2011, 12:09:59 pm »
Only popped on here to check on the moaning and stumbled across this.

Excellent OP - I've just started believing that there is still some sanity left within Liverpool fans

Offline Rafa_La

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Re: Expectations, Knee Jerkism, Bitterness – It’s all got to stop
« Reply #21 on: January 13, 2011, 12:12:58 pm »
Agree with you mate.

We also need to getting right on the arseholes who post on here and challenge the bollocks as soon as they post. Can't believe I'm advocating us all becoming 'Mod's, but as one of them said in the auld arses thread, it's about everybody pulling together and challenging the sky fed, media driven ignorance and reclaiming our club.

Is right mate.
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Offline SmileyMoustache

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Re: Expectations, Knee Jerkism, Bitterness – It’s all got to stop
« Reply #22 on: January 13, 2011, 12:14:26 pm »
I agree mate, we all need to just accept what's going on. But, in all honesty I think it's over for a few years now. I don't want to sound pessimistic but how can we be expected  to attract top players to this club anymore when we can't offer top European football. Quite simply, any top players that become available will simply go to the top teams. We are paying the price for a failed transfer policy that has seen us blow near 200 million over 6 years and what do we have to show for it. We are a top club, but we are not a top team anymore. We simply don't have the players anymore. Besides Reina, Gerrard and Torres we don't have any top talent anymore. I'm just worried we will now go in the direction of Leeds and Newcastle who were top teams for a sustained period of time before falling from grace. It's over one way or another, we can't compete with the other top teams for players. We aren't even active in the transfer market which is just depressing considering how awful we are to watch every week.

Offline Roy of the rovers

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Re: Expectations, Knee Jerkism, Bitterness – It’s all got to stop
« Reply #23 on: January 13, 2011, 12:18:30 pm »
I know we're not playing at our best right now but if we can't catch fucking Sunderland by the end of the season in this shite league then we may all as well accept that the game is up for LFC.

Well, maybe. I also think 6th is perfectly doable. But we're miles away from achieving this right now, and Kenny may or may not be able to get it right in time

The question (not aimed at you per se) is: are we going to be positive about where we are and help the players and Kenny get the best out of what's left, or not? A lot of the very disappointed aren't being supportive.

Offline montysmum

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Re: Expectations, Knee Jerkism, Bitterness – It’s all got to stop
« Reply #24 on: January 13, 2011, 12:22:36 pm »
To be fair, I think there is a change in attitude already.

Prior to Kenny's appointment all we ever heard on the phone-in's, chat shows and forums was doom and gloom, criticism of the manager, criticism of the (new) owners. 

Things are different now though and there seems to be more unity, and a growing acceptance that things are going to take time to put right.

Remember the Holly Trinity folks - players, fans and club all pulling together?  Thats what we need to get back to and I think, under Kenny and FSG thats what we will get.
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Offline Roy of the rovers

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Re: Expectations, Knee Jerkism, Bitterness – It’s all got to stop
« Reply #25 on: January 13, 2011, 12:23:02 pm »
Hi, I’ve been lurking about Rawk for a few years now but as yet have never made a post.  I've been wanting to make this point for a while now. I don't have any rights at the moment as a new poster to start a new thread so I thought this was the most relevant recent thread to make the point. I hope the OP doesn't mind!

So this is where we are at. This is Hicks’ and Gillett’s legacy and there is no easy fix. We have a mid-table squad dotted with bits of quality. It is in desperate need of overhaul and investment. Hopefully we will be able to hold onto the little quality we have and can build around that.

As I watched us succumb to a second 2-1 defeat of the season to newly promoted Blackpool I sharply realised that Kenny did not have a magic wand as some of us had hoped. We need to accept and come to terms with this and with the state of the squad so that we have the patience to give Kenny, John Henry, Comolli and whoever is given the job as permenant manager in the summer the time to rebuild this great club. Until then, be prepared, it may get worse before it gets better but always remember we have our club back.

Great first post.

We're much better than our position, but we're not near some fans' expectations. In a decent season, this squad is top 6, not top 4. In a dreadful season (i.e. this one), top 6 would be a fantastic second-half of the season.

This isn't 'accepting LFC are nothing now' a la Sanchez, it's about seeing our position clearly, and being supportive whilst we re-build.

Offline ElysianField

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Re: Expectations, Knee Jerkism, Bitterness – It’s all got to stop
« Reply #26 on: January 13, 2011, 12:25:35 pm »
Good post... and it will happen (back to basics re being a supporter now that Kenny is home). I'd like to kick-off this new sense of togetherness by suggesting a 'Save Eammon Holmes' appeal to Sky's Breakfast show producer. Another obvious dig at our plight this morning, "Wouldn't it be terrible if they got relegated" (pregnant pause for laughter).... TWAT. He recently compared the Mirror's (black) sports reporter to a new-born monkey, quickly issuing a grovelling apology to avoid the boot. Please Sky, keep that rotund non-entity there for life as no 'media personality' sums up the gulf between US and THEM re true class than this inane cretin. Keep it up, Holmes... Reds everywhere are truly united in hating your smarmy, self-serving, manc-luvin' guts.     

Offline Roy of the rovers

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Re: Expectations, Knee Jerkism, Bitterness – It’s all got to stop
« Reply #27 on: January 13, 2011, 12:27:47 pm »
I love this club, and despite the fact I’m back where I was pre-Rafa – not expecting to win the league any time soon, I am still over the moon with how the last 2 weeks have gone. 2010 will go down as an annus horribilis as bad as any in Liverpool’s history, but out of it have come some positives. New owners, new direction and a new stable base from which we can once again build upon. The only thing left is for the supporters to get back to supporting the team, wholeheartedly, passionately and in victory and defeat. More than ever the media feed off the likes of RAWK, (the H + G internet terrorism has guaranteed that)  and just cannot wait to see the types of posts we’ve seen in the last 24 hours, so every single supporter has a responsibility to swallow a reality pill, remember what supporting a football club is all about and realise that we are now back in good and safe hands, and that through those hands, things will progress once more. The Holy Trinity is nearly repaired; unfortunately it’s us, the supporters, who are holding it back.

Spot on.

We've got good owners, we've got a top man as a manager and an improving coaching staff, we've got some fantastic youth, and a mixed bag of senior players - all of whom are performing below their potential.

We the supporters, can help them deliver their best. That's all there is to know or act upon until the end of the season

Offline Raoul Duke

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Re: Expectations, Knee Jerkism, Bitterness – It’s all got to stop
« Reply #28 on: January 13, 2011, 12:28:27 pm »
I trust Kenny.
Fool, if it wasn't for Sergei here, both you and your cousin be cadaverous mo'fuckers.

Offline xerxes1

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Re: Expectations, Knee Jerkism, Bitterness – It’s all got to stop
« Reply #29 on: January 13, 2011, 12:32:33 pm »
Our rightful distaste for G&H has led to unintended consequences. The Messianic status conferred on Rafa was impossible for him to live up to,the opprobrium heaped on Roy undeserved, and now the legend of Kenny has been resurrected and been overblown creating  much risk even though his welcome return has sated the appetite of the attack dogs - for now.

We wanted "Anyone but G&H" - we got them. We wanted anyone but Roy. We got him. The inexperience of FSG and the ring rustiness of Kenny have been understated by many. Yet both of them offer us a chance, and both are better than we had before.

We have made our bed - time to lie on it for a bit.
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Re: Expectations, Knee Jerkism, Bitterness – It’s all got to stop
« Reply #30 on: January 13, 2011, 12:35:30 pm »
Hi, I’ve been lurking about Rawk for a few years now but as yet have never made a post.  I've been wanting to make this point for a while now. I don't have any rights at the moment as a new poster to start a new thread so I thought this was the most relevant recent thread to make the point. I hope the OP doesn't mind!

Nice first post fella, you've set yourself a very high standard there!

Offline Stussy

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Re: Expectations, Knee Jerkism, Bitterness – It’s all got to stop
« Reply #31 on: January 13, 2011, 12:42:28 pm »

Yeah that was a good first post  :thumbup
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Offline Giono

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Re: Expectations, Knee Jerkism, Bitterness – It’s all got to stop
« Reply #32 on: January 13, 2011, 12:43:19 pm »
Agree with the OP.

We've all (me too) got into some bad habits. We see the team through a lens that sees evidence of abandonment by ownership, evidence of rudderless management and evidence of player weakness everywhere.

We have new owners that have not given us reason to worry really. We have a new manager that is new and is making us play better if not winning football. We have a squad that has undergone all the disheartening crap of 2010 with 3 managers.

Let's give NESV, Comolli and Kenny some time to prove themselves.

In the meantime, let's get back to being Liverpool supporters. G & H most likely took a league title from us. Purslow took promising players from us. Roy took our ambition from us. Let's turn the page and stop following someone else's script.







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Offline Greg

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Re: Expectations, Knee Jerkism, Bitterness – It’s all got to stop
« Reply #33 on: January 13, 2011, 12:44:12 pm »
Bennoyoun has never been a regular starter mate.... so dont include him... Our defense even without arby and sami were third best last season.. so they have not become very bad in space of six months..  I feel lucas is doing a very good job in DM so masch loss may not be a big one. As for kuyt, he just finished the world cup on a very high note which tells u that he is still good as he ever was..  So there is no point in comparing his prevous years mate....
Regular starter or not, he was better than what our current wide players Kuyt, Cole, Jovanovic, Maxi and Babel have been. So you think Lucas is the same level as Mascherano do you? And you are measuring Dirk Kuyt’s current ability by how far Holland got in the World Cup? There’s some fucking warped logic floating around your brain.

Offline Torpedo Tommy

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Re: Expectations, Knee Jerkism, Bitterness – It’s all got to stop
« Reply #34 on: January 13, 2011, 12:49:17 pm »
Hi, I’ve been lurking about Rawk for a few years now but as yet have never made a post.  I've been wanting to make this point for a while now. I don't have any rights at the moment as a new poster to start a new thread so I thought this was the most relevant recent thread to make the point. I hope the OP doesn't mind!


The team that Rafa built.

One of the biggest points being made by pundits and by some of our own fans during Hodgson’s reign was that Roy was left with a depleted squad and a group of poor Bentez signings. Rafa constantly came in for criticism as those with an axe to grind sought to get the boot in at every opportunity. It was an argument that annoyed me greatly being a huge Rafa fan and I was disappointed that there were not more voices out there putting forward an objective version of the situation. 

As time went on through Roy’s tenure and unbelievably poor results became more frequent I tried to analyse the situation, without any bias towards Rafa, to see if I could find points in favour of Roy. Without doubt some of the players and certainly the team as a whole looked (looks) a shadow of its former self, we seem to have almost zero options from the bench and we were being dominated all over the field by teams we should be considering inferior to us.

Could it be that maybe Rafa did leave Roy with a poor squad?

I quickly realised that some of the media barrage had burrowed its way into my subconscious and I would need to fight against it.

So what was the answer then?  There’s no doubt that Roy made some poor decisions as manager and certainly took the team backwards. Off the field also he never once conducted himself like a Liverpool manager and simply put, he just was not the man for the job and never would be. But our frustration (and hatred in some cases) towards Roy had given us a focal point, a reason for the demise, someone to blame and it caused us to forget something much more significant and destructive. Perhaps we wanted to forget.

It seems so long ago now that we were all hanging on every word of the Guardian blog waiting to see how the fate of Liverpool Football Club would be decided by non football men in the High Court in London. It was an incredibly painful and uncertain time for the club, a time we can be forgiven for wanting to forget. Perhaps when we rejoiced at the arrival of new responsible owners we believed it was now over, we had seen the back of Hicks and Gillett. Unfortunately their legacy lives on and could be seen as recently as last night in the 2-1 defeat to Blackpool. Even though we now have a man in charge who has, united the fans, created a great atmosphere around the club and is a man worthy of calling our manager we need to know and remember exactly how we got to this point so that we can begin to rebuild and move forward.

The most important point that we need to remember is that, due to their inherently disastrous business plan, the final 18-24 months of Hicks’ and Gillett’s reign saw the team and squad unashamedly and systematically stripped of value.

During the 08/09 season this was what we and many in the football world considered to be the best team in the Premier League and one of the best in Europe:


                                  Reina

Arbeloa      Carragher        Skrtel          Aurelio

                         
                        Alonso       Mascherano

                               
                                 Gerard
Kuyt                                                         Riera/Benayoun

                                  Torres


That United would go on to just pip this team to the title was down to their greater squad depth and it could be argued one or two naïve mistakes on our part.

Rafa had spent four seasons carefully constructing this team from a modest budget (modest in terms of competing with the top clubs in Europe) with a view to delivering number 19. I believe, as I’m sure many of you do also, that he would have eventually delivered it had someone like John Henry been in charge back then rather than the parasites we were inflicted with instead.

During the 09/10 season, when defending the quality of Rafa’s team, the argument was put forward by myself and many others that ‘we had only lost one player’ and the title challenging team still remained. This argument was similarly used at the start of this season as a stick to beat Roy Hodgson with only this time it had increased to there being only two players missing from the title challenging side. Unfortunately that is far from accurate. Since we finished second in the league in 2009 with our highest ever Premier League points total the team has fallen in quality sharply. This is not just due to the team having been largely stripped of value but, equally criminal, the lack of investment in up and coming players able to challenge the places of those now on the other side of their best playing days. Let’s look at Rafa’s team individually compared to what we have now.

Reina. An absolute Godsend and the only player I would argue that we still have at the same ability as the 08/09 season. It’s all downhill from here.

ArbeloaSOLD. Arguably replaced at the time with a much better player. Johnson would add a greater attacking threat to the team and was bought to help breakdown those teams which would ‘park the bus’ at Anfield so that we could gather those extra few points which would eventually take us over the line. Unfortunately for Glen he came in at least one season too late and the overall demise of the team has only served to highlight some of his defensive frailties, frailties we rarely saw from Arbeloa. I’m sure Arbeloa did not want to sit on the bench but you could certainly have argued that had we been in a better financial position we would have been able to hang onto Arbeloa.

Carragher. He was on top of his game in 08/09 but unfortunately time is beginning to catch up with the 32 year old legend and so far this season we have not seen enough to suggest he can be easily replaced from within the squad.

Skrtel. Was another of many who had a great season in 08/09, he was a defensive rock but he has not been the same player since that clash of heads with Carragher away to Spurs at the start of last season. Maybe it knocked his confidence but he has been at the centre of some terrible goals we’ve conceded this year. This is not necessarily down to Hicks and Gillett, sometimes players fall out of form, it may just be bad luck.

Aurelio. Due to countless frustrating injuries he is a shadow of the player that kept Ronaldo so quiet in the 4-1 demolishing of United at Old Trafford, though he is of course still technically excellent. Again a sign of the lack of investment when he was replaced by a youngster in Insua who although a promising prospect was not totally equipped yet to step up and be relied upon at that level. Insua was then replaced by… well I’ll leave it there.

AlonsoSOLD. So much has been said and written about the sale of Alonso and perhaps some would argue too much significance was given to it as a reason for our decline. It was however certainly a sign of things to come, he has never been replaced.

MascheranoSOLD. A very similar situation to Alonso. Although Lucas has definitely grown as a player this year and has been one of the few shining lights there is no doubt that the little general (or an adequate replacement) is sorely missed in midfield.

Kuyt. Another player who’s best playing days are unfortunately behind him. In the 08/09 season Dirk would score 12 league goals along with 9 assists. No wide player outside of Ronaldo would match that. The 30 year old’s touch has let him down on numerous occasions this season and he has been much less of an attacking threat. In his position we should have been in investing in two or three young players who would challenge him and eventually take over.

Gerard. The best player in the country by miles in 08/09, he was instrumental in everything we did that year and he was on top of his game. I can’t criticise him as much as others, I still believe he gives 100% every time he pulls on the jersey but he has seen the quality around him disintegrate from a top European team to a mid-table Premier League team.

Riera/BenayounSOLD. I included both here as I could never decid which was best in that position, both offered something different. Both were sold in bemusing circumstances. After a great season Riera went backwards where an attitude problem surprisingly crept in, perhaps Rafa should be praised for getting so much out of possibly an average player in his first season before moving him on. I was aghast when I found out Benayoun was being sold to Chelsea. He was an absolute gem who, although may not have had the consistency to start every game, could be relied on to find that little extra or provide that spark to create a goal. Unfortunately Babel has not materialised into the all-round player who may now have made this position his own. Again, investment was needed.

Torres. What can I say, 08/09 he was the best striker in the world and he was at our club. Many are now quick to jump on the Sky bandwagon and throw about those hollow platitudes that we all too often hear. But they don’t make players like Torres anymore; loyal, determined, respectful, passionate and most of all he is world class.  His injuries have set him back and he too has had to watch as his quality of teammate has gone drastically downhill. If rumours are to be believed his injury plagued lack of form may even be partly the fault of the club, again due to the stress of being on the verge of financial ruin. He also has the pressure of being the only top class striker at the club due to a lack of investment in a back-up.


So this is where we are at. This is Hicks’ and Gillett’s legacy and there is no easy fix. We have a mid-table squad dotted with bits of quality. It is in desperate need of overhaul and investment. Hopefully we will be able to hold onto the little quality we have and can build around that.

As I watched us succumb to a second 2-1 defeat of the season to newly promoted Blackpool I sharply realised that Kenny did not have a magic wand as some of us had hoped. We need to accept and come to terms with this and with the state of the squad so that we have the patience to give Kenny, John Henry, Comolli and whoever is given the job as permenant manager in the summer the time to rebuild this great club. Until then, be prepared, it may get worse before it gets better but always remember we have our club back.

Good first post Dermaroy but there are a few key issues you fail to add;

Arbeloa sold - But Johnson brought in at £17m + the emergance of a certain young fellow by the name of Martin Kelly, who has performed amicably within a team who are......well, not performing amicably, has sort of counteracted that loss.

Riera / Benayoun sold - but Joe Cole brought in.  You could argue that Cole was not a first teamer for Chelsea and hasn't performed well.  But the counter argument would be that Reira and Benayoun were in an 'either or' situation and lets face it, with the exception of Lucas who has played consistantly well for us this season?

Masch / Alonso sold - this is were the main problems lie but, we have brought in Acquilani and Meireles.  Not exactly like for like in style or ability. The former was subject to all sorts of irregularities, claims and rumours.  The latter has been good until the last two games - both of which I don't think he has been fully fit for.


You are right to point out that we haven't got the squad from 2008-09.  We haven't.  We have lost a few valuable players that have been replaced but whose replacements haven't worked out.  We do need a few players - very true.

But one thing that we have lost is belief and confidence.

In the last 16 months alone we must have been leading or equalised and got the momentum / initiative of the game only to freeze on at least 15-20 occassions.  We simply do not know how / have the confidence to play with the initiative.

Having taken the initiative in games, I'm pretty convinced that we are good enough - if we weren't, surely we would not have been able to take the lead?!?

When Kenny has had adequate time to work and our confidence is restored then we will see an improvement.  The squad isn't top four anymore - neither is it bottom half either!

Offline dernaroy

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Re: Expectations, Knee Jerkism, Bitterness – It’s all got to stop
« Reply #35 on: January 13, 2011, 12:49:19 pm »
Nice first post fella, you've set yourself a very high standard there!

Cheers, I'll try and keep it that way!
i admireyour optimism but if you honestly believe we will finish even in the top 6 this year , then you my friend (im at pains to say this ) are deluded.

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Re: Expectations, Knee Jerkism, Bitterness – It’s all got to stop
« Reply #36 on: January 13, 2011, 12:51:44 pm »
The war is over time to lay down your weapons and get right behind the manager, players and owners.

Don't blame me I voted for Jeremy Corbyn!!

Miss you Tracy more and more every day xxx

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Re: Expectations, Knee Jerkism, Bitterness – It’s all got to stop
« Reply #37 on: January 13, 2011, 12:53:12 pm »
The war is over time to lay down your weapons and get right behind the manager, players and owners.
I'll second that.
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Offline dernaroy

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Re: Expectations, Knee Jerkism, Bitterness – It’s all got to stop
« Reply #38 on: January 13, 2011, 12:54:21 pm »

When Kenny has had adequate time to work and our confidence is restored then we will see an improvement.  The squad isn't top four anymore - neither is it bottom half either!

I agree with that.

And I did overlook some emerging talents and supposed replacements that were bought in the interests of keeping my already large post as precise as possible. The point still stands though, lack of confidence aside, in almost every position on the team since 08/09 we have lost quality.
i admireyour optimism but if you honestly believe we will finish even in the top 6 this year , then you my friend (im at pains to say this ) are deluded.

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Re: Expectations, Knee Jerkism, Bitterness – It’s all got to stop
« Reply #39 on: January 13, 2011, 12:54:43 pm »
Absolute gem the OP. was thinking of writing something myself but didn't have the time. :thumbup
« Last Edit: January 13, 2011, 01:00:56 pm by theMilkman »
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