Topic: The Level 3 Thread

[steveeastend]

why do you pretty much always revert to talking about man utd?

I was refering to a couple of posts of OTHER posters stating Manchester being quick on the counter attack.
Is this ok for you?

Actually in this post I was refering to Juan Loco stating Benitez not getting the most out of our players. And I am saying here that he does, football wise, but probably not putting enough pressure on the players.
THIS is my point.

[royhendo]

I've wondered about pitch sizes on here before Vulmea. I'd be interested to know which are the bigger pitches and which are the smaller pitches in the Prem. It seems like the newer stadia should be regulation FIFA jobs, but intuitively you'd think Anfield is a tighter pitch. Is that right?

The Emirates for example - it seems very spacious. I know there's leeway over regulation pitch sizes in terms of length and width, but does anyone know about the actual stats on this?

It does alter things though - it has to, doesn't it?

Anyway... Steve.

[scatman]

I've wondered about pitch sizes on here before Vulmea. I'd be interested to know which are the bigger pitches and which are the smaller pitches in the Prem. It seems like the newer stadia should be regulation FIFA jobs, but intuitively you'd think Anfield is a tighter pitch. Is that right?

The Emirates for example - it seems very spacious. I know there's leeway over regulation pitch sizes in terms of length and width, but does anyone know about the actual stats on this?

It does alter things though - it has to, doesn't it?

Anyway... Steve.

think someone posted these in a thread recently Roy, and i think if i'm correct, Stoke and Blackburn had the most narrow pitches. Think it might have been just after our game against the potters

[socrates the sophist]

Look forward to it dude - you've got a nice way with words. We might not always agree, but it's mostly pretty good reading, no matter what people say.

Get a room

[royhendo]

We should get a massive big room - when I said "we", I meant everyone. My mithtake.
Likewyse you S_t_s - the room's booked, I'm lubed up and ready to roll.

[Yorkykopite]

I'm got the Super-8 camera and stock just to give it that vintage Boogie-Nights feel.

[royhendo]

And I'm hung like a grizzly bear. ***Action***

[Varmenni]

From PL Handbook 2009/2010

The Pitch
21. In League Matches the length of the pitch shall be not more than 110 metres nor less than
100 metres and its breadth not more than 75 metres nor less than 64 metres.
22. For UEFA club competitions the pitch must measure 105 metres in length by 68 metres in
breadth exactly. If for technical reasons of a construction related nature it is impossible to
achieve the required dimensions a UEFA Club Licence may nevertheless be granted provided
that the pitch is minimum 100 metres to maximum 105 metres in length by minimum 64
metres to maximum 68 metres in breadth.

Emirates, Villa Park, CoMS, Old Toilett, DW: 105x68
Ewood Park: 105x65.8
Reebok: 101x66
Turf Moor: 102.4x64
Stamford Bridge: 103x67
Woodison: 100.48x68
Craven Cottage, Pompey: 100x65
KC Stadium: 100.3x68
Anfield, SoL: 101x68
Britannia: 104x65
WHL: 100x67
Boleyn Ground: 100.58x65.84
St. Andrews: 100x66 (from wikipedia)
Molineux: 100x64 (from wikipedia)

From this it is clear which clubs are still stuck in the ages of incomprehensible measurement units

[Yorkykopite]

And someone brings in the Rothmans Handbook and Roy loses wood.

Roll credits.

[royhendo]

LOL brilliant. No mate, that's all part of the plot.

"So what are you saying to me Varmenni - that size doesn't matter?"

Cue Lady B making her first appearance on the thread, and job's a good un.

[Yorkykopite]

LOL brilliant. No mate, that's all part of the plot.

"So what are you saying to me Varmenni - that size doesn't matter?"

Cue Lady B making her first appearance on the thread, and job's a good un.

Length doesn't, but clearly width does. (Which makes it even more mysterious that Souness deliberately narrowed his when Rangers played in Europe) 

[fowlermagic]

I am sure its been asked before but how come many of our purchases over the years have lacked pace and quickness in feet / mind?

You see the current side and only SG & Torres really have all of these assets. Others like Benayoun, Johnson, Riera & Co have some but not all thus the overall technique of the team is pretty poor for a top 4 / CL side.

[Not funny reecehenebry]

I am sure its been asked before but how come many of our purchases over the years have lacked pace and quickness in feet / mind?

You see the current side and only SG & Torres really have all of these assets. Others like Benayoun, Johnson, Riera & Co have some but not all thus the overall technique of the team is pretty poor for a top 4 / CL side.

Hold on..Alonso out Aqualani in..more mobility and both have good technique
Johnson for arby..more pace and better technique.
Soto for hyypia----slightly beeter pace(inchs) worse technique.
Not much differance really and all forced.Gerrard has lost pace this year though..down to injury and age i imagine.on the other hand Lucas has better techinque this year than last(or the same but has more strenght to use it this year)

[royhendo]

It's because they're scared of AlexFerguson.

[Vulmea]

despite appearances I'm not geeky enough to know but what would pitch sizes have been in the 70's? I dont remember any changes at Anfield.

likewise I'm gobsmacked that the emirates and anfield are the same width.

what the hell would a 75 m width pitch be like - an extra 10 feet either side of the penalty box....

presumably the narrower the pitch the easier it is to defend, the longer the pitch the greater stamina to get up and down and the bigger advantage that pace particularly on the counter would provide?

if level 3 football is just another tool to increase the size of the pitch when attacking and  decrease it when defending then have the advances in fitness and pace switched the emphasis to 'football intelligence' being the key factor in a player not pace, speed, not even technique but the ability to adapt to circumstance in each phase of play?

If saachi drilled his players over and over to cover every possibility to ensure they knew where they should be wherever the ball was, their opponent and their team mates - could he have achieved the same result with 11 players who were less skilled, less drilled but gifted with greater 'football intelligence'. Saachi persisted with the idea that the players expressed a system but any system can be figured out and countered - see circulation football and counter attacking.

rafa bangs on about football intelligence being key - is that level 4? - 11 individuals that instinctively know where they should be and what they should be doing at any given phase of the game? there could be no counter to level 4 (unless its pyschic and knowing where you should be before you need to be there).

[Not funny reecehenebry]

despite appearances I'm not geeky enough to know but what would pitch sizes have been in the 70's? I dont remember any changes at Anfield.

likewise I'm gobsmacked that the emirates and anfield are the same width.

what the hell would a 75 m width pitch be like - an extra 10 feet either side of the penalty box....

presumably the narrower the pitch the easier it is to defend, the longer the pitch the greater stamina to get up and down and the bigger advantage that pace particularly on the counter would provide?

if level 3 football is just another tool to increase the size of the pitch when attacking and  decrease it when defending then have the advances in fitness and pace switched the emphasis to 'football intelligence' being the key factor in a player not pace, speed, not even technique but the ability to adapt to circumstance in each phase of play?

If saachi drilled his players over and over to cover every possibility to ensure they knew where they should be wherever the ball was, their opponent and their team mates - could he have achieved the same result with 11 players who were less skilled, less drilled but gifted with greater 'football intelligence'. Saachi persisted with the idea that the players expressed a system but any system can be figured out and countered - see circulation football and counter attacking.

rafa bangs on about football intelligence being key - is that level 4? - 11 individuals that instinctively know where they should be and what they should be doing at any given phase of the game? there could be no counter to level 4 (unless its pyschic and knowing where you should be before you need to be there).

I always thought that game intelligence in a player was when a player didn't need that amount of drilling but had a natural feel for the ebb and flow of the game and could understand what needed to be changed on the pitch without the manager telling them what they needed to do.Like anyone in work that can take control without direction and make good decisions.Of course there is a limit to that, and any player or worker needs to be reminded of the plan at times.Also at times they need to be told that the way they want to do things comes second to the managers overall view.

[Des Equilibrante]

rafa bangs on about football intelligence being key - is that level 4? - 11 individuals that instinctively know where they should be and what they should be doing at any given phase of the game? there could be no counter to level 4 (unless its pyschic and knowing where you should be before you need to be there).

I don't think it's level 4, it's just one interpretation of level 3. total football is pretty close to what you are intimating, i think. you could say there are two main approaches to level 3 - the organic and the inorganic. barca/arsenal are close to the organic variety, natural attacking football. chelsea, us last year, united... where it's all about the system.

[Not funny reecehenebry]

Game intelligence probably has many definitions, but for me it's the ability to see the future before it happens and it manifests in three main ways--when you don't have the ball, when you get the ball, and what you do with the ball.

When you don't have the ball, you know instinctively where best to position yourself to nullify the attack by winning the ball back yourself or ensuring that the attack breaks down. When you get the ball, it's about finding the space to move into, knowing instinctively which direction to break and how far you need to go to get time to find your pass or move forward yourself. And when you decide to pass, to know not only where your teammates and the opposition are now, but where they will be a couple of seconds in the future when the ball you play meets the space that your teammates have moved into.

And while football, like any craft, is learnable, and the more practice you put in, the better you will get, the practitioners at the very top of the craft are there for a combination of their innate talents and the practice they have put in to develop these talents.

There have been very few players who have had this level of ability throughout the history of the game. What they have in common is that they always look like they have time to spare and are very rarely ruffled. And although it often looks like they are just doing the simple things, the point to note is that it is very difficult to make something as complex as football look simple.

Zidane to me is to total of this.|I do agree it's gets better over time but the best players have the knack already.
Gerrard has none of the points you talk about.not one.Simple in not in his game.

[killer-heels]

Zidane to me is to total of this.|I do agree it's gets better over time but the best players have the knack already.
Gerrard has none of the points you talk about.not one.Simple in not in his game.

Only Alonso had it. No one else in our team does. Not Gerrard, not Torres, not anyone.

[Des Equilibrante]

Given we are liking this compact defence and expansive attack, why hasn't the 3-5-2 been used more? It would certainly seem to suit a few of our players - 3 centrebacks for example.

Carra Kyrgiakos Agger
Johnson............Masch.............Insua
Lucas Aquilani
Gerrard
Torres

Given our fullbacks have the engines and ability to bomb up and down the flanks, at at least seems an unexplored option. I do know for it to work it woudl require the wingbacks and central midfielders to get in and around the box offering support. Would it leave the back line too exposed if they all pressed so high?

[killer-heels]

There is no space for Kuyt on your team. Thus it will never be used.

Anyway, its probably Lucas or Aquilani who would get ditched, with Gerrard behind the front 2 of Kuyt and Torres.

[Not funny reecehenebry]

Only Alonso had it. No one else in our team does. Not Gerrard, not Torres, not anyone.

Lucas has it.Its taking time to come out but he has it.Aqualani looks like he could but time will tell.Maxi had it,not sure if thats the case now.

But on your first point, alonso had it in spades.I rememebr the 05 cl final with 10 mins to go when in our box alonso lifted the ball over seedorfs head and calmly passed it out of defense, and i though this guy is fuckly class.Looking at him now at madrid with kaka ronaldo and the like around him and he still looks like the classest player on the pitch,like the only one who has the game under his control.the last liverpool player that i can remember doing that was molby circa 88.Delighted to have watched a liverpool team with alonso in it.but you know what, i see it in lucas.i really do.i think after this world cup the whole world will look up and see what the lad can do.

[rednich85]

Only Alonso had it. No one else in our team does. Not Gerrard, not Torres, not anyone.

I would suggest Lucas, Aurellio and possibly Carragher all have 'game intelligence'.

Carraghers is born out of years of experience.

The other two, just have it. Not because they are Brazilian. They just seem to know where they should be, where they want the ball to go....

In my view anyway.

[Vulmea]

I don't think it's level 4, it's just one interpretation of level 3. total football is pretty close to what you are intimating, i think. you could say there are two main approaches to level 3 - the organic and the inorganic. barca/arsenal are close to the organic variety, natural attacking football. chelsea, us last year, united... where it's all about the system.

But total football still implies a system - players are interchangeable but only within a system - level 4 there wouldn't be a system, all bets are off, you position yourself in the optimum position relative to all the other variables whether thats 1-9 or 9-1 or 1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1?  Benitez has alluded to this before saying 442, 443, 4231 doesn't matter, its where the players are that matters

if he was trying to create a fluid system he would be highly dependant upon having the right individuals to implement it - players would need game intelligence - players like pennant, babel et al dont appear to have any....its a great theory and it would be wonderful to think rafa was working towards it and then you look at Degen at it just disapears in  a puff of smoke...........

[Not funny reecehenebry]

But total football still implies a system - players are interchangeable but only within a system - level 4 there wouldn't be a system, all bets are off, you position yourself in the optimum position relative to all the other variables whether thats 1-9 or 9-1 or 1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1?  Benitez has alluded to this before saying 442, 443, 4231 doesn't matter, its where the players are that matters

if he was trying to create a fluid system he would be highly dependant upon having the right individuals to implement it - players would need game intelligence - players like pennant, babel et al dont appear to have any....its a great theory and it would be wonderful to think rafa was working towards it and then you look at Degen at it just disapears in  a puff of smoke...........

I don't think thats fair.The players with the G.I. your talking about cost a lot.On top of that the players you buy in need to be able to learn and that always a gamble.
for the record i think Kuyt has great G.I..
But vulmea do you think gerrard has  good  G.I.?

[killer-heels]

I don't think we are on a fluid non-system path. I think we are definitely on a rigid, system is the key path.

I have mentioned it before but I read an interview with Vicente from Valencia and they mentioned the difference with Benitez and Ranieri. He said that under Ranieri, they were given more freedom and told to be more expressive. Under Rafa he said the players were told to be more rigid by sticking to their positions and not deviating from it too much.

Now we all know which approach was more successful for them, but it gives you and idea of the how we would turn out if everything fell into place.

[Not funny reecehenebry]

I don't think we are on a fluid non-system path. I think we are definitely on a rigid, system is the key path.

I have mentioned it before but I read an interview with Vicente from Valencia and they mentioned the difference with Benitez and Ranieri. He said that under Ranieri, they were given more freedom and told to be more expressive. Under Rafa he said the players were told to be more rigid by sticking to their positions and not deviating from it too much.

Now we all know which approach was more successful for them, but it gives you and idea of the how we would turn out if everything fell into place.

Not really,rafa left because he felt the board wouldn't back him in the transfer market.Given time i think he would have liked to buy more expressive players,but the team he won la liga with didn't have that so he did what he could with them.He finds himself with the same problem with us but in a league that has dominates the cl for a number of years and can afford to buy the best on offer.If you look at the players he has missed out on they certainly had the creativity we need.
BTW killer heels do you think gerrard should stay if he doesn't have decent G.I.?As a player we put most of our play through?

[killer-heels]

BTW killer heels do you think gerrard should stay if he doesn't have decent G.I.?As a player we put most of our play through?

Of course he should. He is still our most effective player and best player.

There is different ways to skin a cat and I am definitely more concerned with the team winning rather than the methods they employ in order to win. In my opinion, Level 3 can be achieved with a team that cannot be considered attractive or completely fluent.

The fact is our best players are direct. Gerrard is direct and Torres is also incredibly direct (probably explains why he isn't as important for Spain, who play a completely different way). At the end of last season we saw a style which got the best out of our direct players and I think that showed plenty of game intelligence. Its about adapting to the types of players and the tools we have and becoming highly effective at that, with the sole aim of winning. At the end of last season, we did that and then some, with all our players being used effectively on the field.

[Not funny reecehenebry]

Of course he should. He is still our most effective player and best player.

There is different ways to skin a cat and I am definitely more concerned with the team winning rather than the methods they employ in order to win. In my opinion, Level 3 can be achieved with a team that cannot be considered attractive or completely fluent.

The fact is our best players are direct. Gerrard is direct and Torres is also incredibly direct (probably explains why he isn't as important for Spain, who play a completely different way). At the end of last season we saw a style which got the best out of our direct players and I think that showed plenty of game intelligence. Its about adapting to the types of players and the tools we have and becoming highly effective at that, with the sole aim of winning. At the end of last season, we did that and then some, with all our players being used effectively on the field.

Bit we only have two player that are direct and we stuggle because of that.Torres would lead any type of team but gerrard cannot play in any type of team.

[killer-heels]

Bit we only have two player that are direct and we stuggle because of that.Torres would lead any type of team but gerrard cannot play in any type of team.

Why not?

Listen, Gerrard is a world class player. We play a system and we play in such a way where we aim to get the best out of Steven Gerrard. For us, getting the best out of Gerrard involves us getting him into positions where he can be devastating. Feeding him the ball early and giving him as many options available to pick out. Thats how we play and thats how we choose to utilise him.

But thats not to say Gerrard cannot play another system or another way. His passing range is brilliant. He and Lucas linked up brilliantly against Hull when they played in central midfield and he already built up an encouraging foil with Aquilani in his brief appearances. He can play this more restrained and intelligent way should we ask him to.

Just look at last season. In the games where he and Alonso played in central midfield and we drew 0-0, there were tonnes of people saying that Gerrard should not play there and instead he should be as close as possible to the oppositions box. We ourselves want Gerrard to play in that way.

Like I said above, he is a world class player and I think its silly to assume he could not play in a variety of different styles.

If i was being nit picky, then I could say that your criticism can apply with Torres. He prefers early passes into space where he can isolate defenders, or run through channels and turn a defence quickly. But he is very poor when he plays where he is required to contribute to the build up and control the ball. Maybe thats why Villa gets more success for Spain and the spanish don't really seem to rate him as highly as we do?

Both are world class talents and in the case of Gerrard, I think we have this weird fascination to play down his ability to amazing lows. He can do loads of things, if he is asked to do so.

[Not funny reecehenebry]

Why not?

Listen, Gerrard is a world class player. We play a system and we play in such a way where we aim to get the best out of Steven Gerrard. For us, getting the best out of Gerrard involves us getting him into positions where he can be devastating. Feeding him the ball early and giving him as many options available to pick out. Thats how we play and thats how we choose to utilise him.

But thats not to say Gerrard cannot play another system or another way. His passing range is brilliant. He and Lucas linked up brilliantly against Hull when they played in central midfield and he already built up an encouraging foil with Aquilani in his brief appearances. He can play this more restrained and intelligent way should we ask him to.

Just look at last season. In the games where he and Alonso played in central midfield and we drew 0-0, there were tonnes of people saying that Gerrard should not play there and instead he should be as close as possible to the oppositions box. We ourselves want Gerrard to play in that way.

Like I said above, he is a world class player and I think its silly to assume he could not play in a variety of different styles.

If i was being nit picky, then I could say that your criticism can apply with Torres. He prefers early passes into space where he can isolate defenders, or run through channels and turn a defence quickly. But he is very poor when he plays where he is required to contribute to the build up and control the ball. Maybe thats why Villa gets more success for Spain and the spanish don't really seem to rate him as highly as we do?

Both are world class talents and in the case of Gerrard, I think we have this weird fascination to play down his ability to amazing lows. He can do loads of things, if he is asked to do so.

what makes you think gerrard is world class?i completly disagree you you there.And name me a game that he shows he can  play a differect style.Whats more we have lond gone past the stage where gerrard is the centre of our play.Alonso was for years but it only masked the fact gerrard wasn't.
Lucas has fed him pleanty of early balls this season to no effect.but even at that Why would we do that.The front 4 players we have now no longer work with that early ball.Maxi Yossi Riera and Aqualani are pass and move players.Gerrard has never player that game in his career.Give me an example and i will put my hans up.
And what makes you think he can chande his game.He never has to date the idea that he can play a 'He can play this more restrained and intelligent way should we ask him to.' doesn't stand up.vrs arsenal he sat alongside masch totallly messing up our midfield.
I'm sorry but i think Lucas has tonnes more G.i. than Gerrard.

[Not funny reecehenebry]

On Torres KH.Your right.he plays that quick game best.But no matter what gane we do play he will still stick the ball in the net regular.He's the end product to our moves and will do it no matter what.The fact he has to come from the box so often is that Gerrard doesn't take up the right positions in ths first place.

[killer-heels]

So wait, now your saying Torres scores goals in-spite of Gerrard?

Gerrard has not played that great this season. But he is a world class player and is rated by many as being very much that. He is one of our greatest players ever and for the players we have had in the past, thats a pretty good feat.

Its not worth justifying him anymore. People like you will only truly appreciate him when he is gone.

[Not funny reecehenebry]

So wait, now your saying Torres scores goals in-spite of Gerrard?

Gerrard has not played that great this season. But he is a world class player and is rated by many as being very much that. He is one of our greatest players ever and for the players we have had in the past, thats a pretty good feat.

Its not worth justifying him anymore. People like you will only truly appreciate him when he is gone.

Lucas may have tonnes more GI, but he will never, ever be half as good for us as Gerrard has been.

No i have never said that torres has scored in spite of gerrard.I believe without gerrard in the team and with playing Aqualani,lucas maxi,torres and yossi up front we would be a better team.gerrard over the years has played in spates.

People like you will only truly appreciate him when he is gone.
Maybe so,but i really don't beliece that.They said the same thing about keane with utd and henry with Arsenal.

The reverance that gerrard gets is totally overboard.its like the drunkard who hasn't had a touch of whiskey in years telling me that meths is the best thing ever.

[Juan Loco]

This thread is getting nuts now.

Maybe I need to dig a little deep and not just scan posts... but inbetween the ridiculous (but sadly expected) criticism of Insua, the notion that Yernited are only better because they're scared of Ferguson (and that's somehow related to their counter-attacking) and now the idea that Gerrard isn't World Class...

*shakes head*


You need to start making this members only Roy; like the freemasons or something, but with beréts.

[ConorYNWA]

No i have never said that torres has scored in spite of gerrard.I believe without gerrard in the team and with playing Aquilani,lucas maxi,torres and yossi up front we would be a better team.gerrard over the years has played in spates.

People like you will only truly appreciate him when he is gone.
Maybe so,but i really don't beliece that.They said the same thing about keane with utd and henry with Arsenal.

The reverance that gerrard gets is totally overboard.its like the drunkard who hasn't had a touch of whiskey in years telling me that meths is the best thing ever.

Nonsense, because hes not up to usual best this season that makes him overrated?

[Not funny reecehenebry]

This thread is getting nuts now.

Maybe I need to dig a little deep and not just scan posts... but inbetween the ridiculous (but sadly expected) criticism of Insua, the notion that Yernited are only better because they're scared of Ferguson (and that's somehow related to their counter-attacking) and now the idea that Gerrard isn't World Class...

*shakes head*


You need to start making this members only Roy; like the freemasons or something, but with beréts.

Hey Loco.
I must say i've always enjoyed your posts.Ever since Monty Pyton broke up i've been waiting for a good comedy.
Still though it would be nice for you to explain why you disagree with,other than listening to the regulars telling you gerrard is word class.
I am more than willing for someone to explain to me how i am wrong and change my view.I really am.

[Not funny reecehenebry]

Nonsense, because hes not up to usual best this season that makes him overrated?

No i have always thought that he is overrated.This season has show it up because the players around him no longer player rush and push football.

[killer-heels]

Hey Loco.
I must say i've always enjoyed your posts.Ever since Monty Pyton broke up i've been waiting for a good comedy.
Still though it would be nice for you to explain why you disagree with,other than listening to the regulars telling you gerrard is word class.
I am more than willing for someone to explain to me how i am wrong and change my view.I really am.

Because he for years has had a massive influence in us winning games, at the very highest level and been key to our successes in his specific way. That may not be a controlled way to how your looking at it (like the way Alonso does it). But it is a influence.

He has scored in every final we have been in and scored against nearly all the best teams we have faced.

Because he is usually, almost, always there when we need him. Because he has played at a high level wherever he has played, from full back to the right wing.

Is Cristiano Ronaldo a world class player?

[Not funny reecehenebry]

Oh yeah and Alonso has gone.Thats shown him up more than anything.No wonder he was so upset when he left.