Topic: Mohamed Salah - Best in the World *

[JP!]

Both. We didn't have a proper No.6 ready.
Cout? Mane?

We could've kept them and not had a proper 6, they were finished.  That's not Moneyball, that's just getting a shit-ton of money for crap players.  Mane was in the last year of his deal and wanted to leave. So yeah, it's probably Coutinho.

If we were going to 'moneyball' Salah, he'd have gone 2 years ago or when the Saudis were bidding in the last window.

There's this weird fear of "FSG" (as though it's just them, but let's play along for now) selling someone too soon when actually history shows we've probably held on to some players too long.  Mo is probably the exception to the rule because he's a freak and still incredibly good.

[Kloppage Time]

We could've kept them and not had a proper 6, they were finished.  That's not Moneyball, that's just getting a shit-ton of money for crap players.  Mane was in the last year of his deal and wanted to leave. So yeah, it's probably Coutinho.

If we were going to 'moneyball' Salah, he'd have gone 2 years ago or when the Saudis were bidding in the last window.

There's this weird fear of "FSG" (as though it's just them, but let's play along for now) selling someone too soon when actually history shows we've probably held on to some players too long.  Mo is probably the exception to the rule because he's a freak and still incredibly good.

Coutinho forced the move, didn't Klopp say stay and they'll build you a statue go and you'll be a bit part player in Barca

[JP!]

Coutinho forced the move, didn't Klopp say stay and they'll build you a statue go and you'll be a bit part player in Barca

A fair point actually yeah. So not him either then...

[Lynndenberries]

Name the most recent moneyball transfer at LFC.

Mac Allister and Gravenberch.

[Hestoic]

Coutinho forced the move, didn't Klopp say stay and they'll build you a statue go and you'll be a bit part player in Barca

Where did this originate from, out of curiosity? Was it in a press conference or something?

[classycarra]

Probably Endo really but I’m not sure anybody knows what moneyball means anymore.

Endo definitely not a moneyball signing. Multi year contract for a rotation player where he won't be worth much (a la Henderson) in his last few years.

If we're saying paying reasonable market money - for a player who's not unknown and has no hidden 'value' thing, like a release fee or being out of favour - and who isn't a regular starter, counts as moneyball  it's probably Tsimikas/Minamino. Before that Elliot and Ings.

[The G in Gerrard]

He getting a new contract?

[Garlic Red]

Endo definitely not a moneyball signing. Multi year contract for a rotation player where he won't be worth much (a la Henderson) in his last few years.

That’s what I meant when I said I’m not sure anybody knows what it means anymore. There’s this assumption that moneyball is signing low/young and selling high. I’d argue signing a player capable of starting for £16m, in a market where that exact position had become massively overvalued in terms of £ commitment, and getting him from a much unfancied club/league where his prospects as a player for an elite club were probably written off, is very much the definition of moneyball. Moneyball was about assembling a team on a smaller budget capable of beating/matching teams with greater resources. That for me is what Endo is, his lack of resale value matters little when he’s cost so little to begin with.

[Kloppage Time]

Moneyballs was/is based on looking at players from a purely statistical point of view, rather than buying the best players from the best teams you buy the lesser known players with the best stats from the lesser teams, Robbo would be a prime example as is Salah (trying to stay on topic)
Nowadays there are stats available readily on pretty much every player and all clubs are pricing players accordingly

[classycarra]

That’s what I meant when I said I’m not sure anybody knows what it means anymore.

yeah meant to agree with you saying that part

There’s this assumption that moneyball is signing low/young and selling high. I’d argue signing a player capable of starting for £16m, in a market where that exact position had become massively overvalued in terms of £ commitment, and getting him from a much unfancied club/league where his prospects as a player for an elite club were probably written off, is very much the definition of moneyball. Moneyball was about assembling a team on a smaller budget capable of beating/matching teams with greater resources. That for me is what Endo is, his lack of resale value matters little when he’s cost so little to begin with.

I don't really get how/when £16 million (was it?) became a really small transfer fee - feels like if that's costing so little, then Thiago counts as a moneyball signing under that definition as a £27 mil man

[Garlic Red]

I don't really get how/when £16 million (was it?) became a really small transfer fee - feels like if that's costing so little, then Thiago counts as a moneyball signing under that definition as a £27 mil man

I mean, United spent £70m on Casemiro, Arsenal £100m+ on Rice, Chelsea £111m on Caicedo, Madrid £85m on Tchouameni, there’s four clubs around our level financial who all spent at least 4x as much as us on a DM. £16m for a capable starter when your rivals are shelling out that is a small fee. Endo is obviously nowhere near some of them in terms of talent but the gap in performance level probably isn’t equal to the gap in fee.

Thiago was a good value buy if you weigh up the talent, the caveat was always the wages and availability. If he’d missed his usual cluster of games due to muscle pulls etc it wouldn’t have been an issue, the things we couldn’t have planned for, though, were the Richarlison leg breaker and hip surgery essentially finishing his career here.

[MonsLibpool]

yeah meant to agree with you saying that part
I don't really get how/when £16 million (was it?) became a really small transfer fee - feels like if that's costing so little, then Thiago counts as a moneyball signing under that definition as a £27 mil man

Thiago is on massive wages unlike Endo. £16m is nothing for a club like Liverpool.

[classycarra]

I mean, United spent £70m on Casemiro, Arsenal £100m+ on Rice, Chelsea £111m on Caicedo, Madrid £85m on Tchouameni, there’s four clubs around our level financial who all spent at least 4x as much as us on a DM. £16m for a capable starter when your rivals are shelling out that is a small fee. Endo is obviously nowhere near some of them in terms of talent but the gap in performance level probably isn’t equal to the gap in fee.

Thiago was a good value buy if you weigh up the talent, the caveat was always the wages and availability. If he’d missed his usual cluster of games due to muscle pulls etc it wouldn’t have been an issue, the things we couldn’t have planned for, though, were the Richarlison leg breaker and hip surgery essentially finishing his career here.

Thiago is on massive wages unlike Endo. £16m is nothing for a club like Liverpool.

i get that we didn't pay mad money like other players (although those were all fees for starters), i just don't think 16 million plus a 4 year contract is nothing.

as the poster above said, it's the combo of stats and value that makes something moneyball - and endo wasn't a stats driven target, it was klopp identifying someone late into a window who'd be able to contribute. villa picking up luiz and kamara to start in their midfield for around £16mil would be more the kinds of transfers i'd consider moneyball.

as someone else said though, we're going off track here sorry - i'll leave it there

[The Test]

We maybe could have kept Hendo on as head of PR or something... but retaining them as the bedrock of our midfield, and not taking the cash and bringing in Mac and Endo, or 4/5ths of a Dom is one of the maddest shouts I've read on here. Especially considering we're top of the league.

Back to Salah. I think I'm enjoying him more as he gets older. His pace is slightly less outrageous, but I honestly think his close control is improving, and the fact that he can't always do it on his own now means he's turning into an assist maestro. For me he's still the best player in the league and showing no signs of dropping off.

[dimwit]

Both. We didn't have a proper No.6 ready.
Cout? Mane?

Neither of those we sold too soon, IMO

They were both done at the level we aspire to be.

I do admit we did not have the replacement sorted at the time, but the answer would not have been half arsed Fabinho or Hendo with their legs gone.

Moneyball would have been selling either of them at their pomp, not when they were visibly on the decline.

We did well to get a fee for either of them, let alone for both.

[Redley]

Blimey. If there’s one thing I wasn’t expecting to read today, it’s that we sold Fabinho and Henderson too early. £50 million odd for them two was better than Ajax getting nearly £200 million for Antony and Martinez

[Simplexity]

Both. We didn't have a proper No.6 ready.
Cout? Mane?

One of the main reasons we are first now is due to us getting a massive wind fall by selling them as they were well past it.

[MonsLibpool]

Hendo and Fab were really poor last season.  It's a miracle that we got £50m for them. I was particularly worried about Fab who still had 4 years to run on his £200k-a- week contract.

I remember suggesting that we should sell Fab, Thiago and Hendo during the summer transfer window and you can imagine the responses. I honestly didn't see the value of keeping them and no we aren't missing Hendo's "leadership"

Getting a fee(with a decent chunk upfront) and their wages off the books is a lot of money that can be reinvested in an experienced midfielder in his mid 20's. How did their leadership help our midfield last season? If we combine any offer with the annual cost of their wages, then that's the opportunity cost of keeping. Thiago is great but IMO, he's not worth £20m to us because he'll miss many games anyway.

Also, we're a team of winners. We already have leaders like Alisson, Virg, Mo...

[Boaty McBoatface]

So...Mo's pretty good eh?

[GreatEx]

No pace goals. Finally.

Yeah but now he's scoring strength goals. They don't count either.

[Persephone]

Hendo and Fab were really poor last season.  It's a miracle that we got £50m for them. I was particularly worried about Fab who still had 4 years to run on his £200k-a- week contract.

I remember suggesting that we should sell Fab, Thiago and Hendo during the summer transfer window and you can imagine the responses. I honestly didn't see the value of keeping them and no we aren't missing Hendo's "leadership"

Turned out to be the miracle we needed, that 50mil allowed us to sign Endo and Szobo who have been instrumental to this side. (Mac was already here). Plus we got both of their heavy wages off the books.

[GreatEx]

Please quit international footy, remember how they blamed you for everything, ta.

[Snusmumriken]

What's all this nonsense with the Egyptian FA? Just read about it and it feels like I've been sleeping under a rock. Their stance is basically, if he plays 30min with us before the international break they have no leeway to let him rest up during their friendly tournament? Sounds like a great way for the new coach to create a healthy relationship with the player and club...

Seems they're more interested in showing that they have one of the worlds best in the team than making sure he's fresh and motivated for games that actually count.

[MonsLibpool]

At the end of the day, we pay his wages and we're gonna need him for the run-in. The Egyptian FA don't care about the player's welfare.

[duvva 💅]

Please quit international footy, remember how they blamed you for everything, ta.

Don’t even think that stops them calling you up if they want

[rushyman]

£400k a week we are paying Mo and he's not being played because we are being blackmailed by Egypt

Fuck that

He has to play v city and he had to play the following week v United.

If he doesn't and we lose then I'm done with how football works, let's just say that to save any hostility

[duvva 💅]

He hasn’t played because he’s been injured.

Now he’s back in training he’ll play if he’s ready, regardless of whether that means he has to go to Egypt in the break.

[Schmarn]

If he plays before the break then after the Man U game he should have a magic strain that keeps him out for 2 weeks. In the last international break City pulled 7 players most of whom amazingly recovered for the next league game. We need to stand firm here especially as they are just friendlies.

Egypt f*cked Mo last time (then blamed him) so they can get to f*ck.

[spider-neil]

Probably Endo really but I’m not sure anybody knows what moneyball means anymore.

Moneyball is data-driven signings but I think the definition of Moneyball is taking a talented player that is struggling for one team and rehabilitating them. Gravenberch would be a recent example. Coutinho and Sturridge would be other examples.

[SamLad]

Moneyball is data-driven signings but I think the definition of Moneyball is taking a talented player that is struggling for one team and rehabilitating them. Gravenberch would be a recent example. Coutinho and Sturridge would be other examples.

yep - said player being underrated, therefore a real bargain of course, hence the "money" bit. 

to me it's always had a hint of buy low/sell high as well i.e. doing it not just for on-field success but to spin a profit. I have a feeling Boehly thinks that way too.

[mullyred94]

yep - said player being underrated, therefore a real bargain of course, hence the "money" bit. 

to me it's always had a hint of buy low/sell high as well i.e. doing it not just for on-field success but to spin a profit. I have a feeling Boehly thinks that way too.

Isnt that what money ball means?

Assembling a team on a smaller budget indefinity players who can step up based on their stats?

How is a 16m Endo not a money ball signing?

Clearly worth more than 16m to us this season right?

[Kloppage Time]

The Academy and how FSG have set it up is pure moneyball

[SamLad]

Isnt that what money ball means?

Assembling a team on a smaller budget indefinity players who can step up based on their stats?

How is a 16m Endo not a money ball signing?

Clearly worth more than 16m to us this season right?

the posts immediately before mine were debating what moneyball means.  I was just refining spider-neil's response.

of course he's worth more than 16m - but  I never mentioned endo did I - so I don't know why you're debating it with me.

[JackWard33]

Moneyball doesn't mean anything
It was a very entertaining book (film) that's basically a total fiction because the As had lucked into the best pitching rotation in baseball that is NEVER MENTIONED in either film or book .. its hilarious

Yes it reflected the stats revolution that gave the As more of an edge as they were first to adopt it (other teams followed suit and that edge disappeared) but its never had an actual definition in football

[Jookie]

‘Moneyball’ is now used as a catch-all term for finding value where others don’t. In football that could be scouring leagues/regions others aren’t as invested in (e.g Brighton) and taking multiple  high risk, low cost transactions, could be finding value in players underperforming at other clubs, could be stat based approaches to identify players who add value to your team/system, etc..

Moneyball was originally wedded in using statistical base approaches to find players who can add more value that it would seem via normal measures. Every club use statistical based approaches now (across most team sports). I don’t think there’s the potential gains there were in the past.  As such, people use Moneyball as that catch all term to describe what they perceive as smart recruitment - whether that’s a signing for 700 k or 70M

[MonsLibpool]

Welcome back, King!

[Kloppage Time]

Welcome back, King!

Pharaoh?

[MonsLibpool]

Pharaoh?

Is right.

[reddebs]

Why do they keep waffling about Mo getting this goal for the record of scoring 20 goals for 7 consecutive seasons?

Is he not going to play again this season?

[Fromola]

Robbed of a goal by the VAR killjoys