Author Topic: Roundtable: Liverpool 5 Cheap Imitation Italian Suits 2  (Read 21468 times)

Offline WhereAngelsPlay

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Re: Roundtable: Liverpool 5 Cheap Imitation Italian Suits 2
« Reply #40 on: April 26, 2018, 08:41:15 am »
I think we have 3 world class players - currently Salah is the 3rd best player in the world. Firmino is clearly world class. I am not so sure about Mane being world class. Van Dijk clearly is world class.

The incoming Keita is already world class and I reckon he will be giving the top 3 players in the world a run for their rmoney in the years to come.

Potentially, Alexander Arnold has what it takes if he continues to progress.

If we can add another potentially world class CB, a world class playmaking  midfielder like Jorginho and another potentially world class forward like Fekir to provide more depth as well as Sessegnon to understudy Robertson, we will be in an even better position.

On current form Mo is the best player in the world right now & if we win number 6 he will win the Ballon d'Or.
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Re: Roundtable: Liverpool 5 Cheap Imitation Italian Suits 2
« Reply #41 on: April 26, 2018, 09:03:28 am »
Great OP
Extraordinary performance... just doesn't happen in a semi final at that level.

The comedy is the media, press, pundits, ex-pros, opposition fans, etc, all keep on coming up with excuses about why we are able to put 7, 5, 3 goals past CL opponents. They still keep thinking it's by chance, that we'll be in for a rude awakening when we don't get the rub of the green, or meet a team with real pedigree. At what point do they notice that it keeps on happening, and doesn't change even when the opposition get better? In fact, the more the opposition wants to keep the ball, the more it plays right into our hands.   

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Offline 1892tillforever

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Re: Roundtable: Liverpool 5 Cheap Imitation Italian Suits 2
« Reply #42 on: April 26, 2018, 09:56:28 am »
I thought it was interesting De Rossi was complaining about long balls, because that was so clearly a strategy that was introduced once it became clear they were playing a back three. With the wing backs pushing up, Salah had acres of space to receive those long looping balls from midfield and he terrorised them because of it. It wasn't until I saw the highlights that I remembered we had a disallowed goal and hit the woodwork, and that's before you take into account the Mane chances and that sitter for Wijnaldum at the end.

I thought the big thing was the midfield. Players like Hendo and Milner have taken a lot of criticism but for that middle period of the match Roma couldn't get the ball forward without being pressed into losing it immediately, and the movement of the ball when we had it was so quick they began panicking. For all the talk of the first goal starting the avalanche, Wijnaldum coming on seemed to change the shape of the game (though I really hope Ox is all right for the start of next season). We were all over them from the first Mane chance and they didn't get near us for a good hour after that.

As for the last 15 or 20 minutes, I don't think it was so much the fact we conceded two that worried people but the way they started cutting through us at will, and how it related to the end of the West Brom game. With so many players out there's a worry that fatigue could hit sooner in the second leg
. I'll be interested to see whether we try and surge forward to kill the game off quickly, or whether we sit back, conserve energy and try to use the speed of the front three to hit them on the counter.

Lastly, I'm very happy to see Anfield has become a genuine fortress again. Five wins, two draws and 24 goals across seven matches in Europe this year, and that's including the dry rubber 0-0 against Porto. Add that to our league games and you're looking at 16 wins, eight draws and no losses, with an average of 2.7 goals per match. Let's hope we can keep that going on the weekend.
The thing is, we won't be playing with that kind of intensity in Rome. Roma will try to but then also run the risk of being gassed out in the second half like City were in the quarters. I expect us to be a lot more solid in the away leg and pick our moments against their slow back line. My chief concern is getting pegged back for long spells.

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Re: Roundtable: Liverpool 5 Cheap Imitation Italian Suits 2
« Reply #43 on: April 26, 2018, 10:33:54 am »
The thing is, we won't be playing with that kind of intensity in Rome. Roma will try to but then also run the risk of being gassed out in the second half like City were in the quarters. I expect us to be a lot more solid in the away leg and pick our moments against their slow back line. My chief concern is getting pegged back for long spells.

Unlike City, I don't know if Roma have the players to pin us back for long periods. There are no De Bruyne's in this team. They will regularly give up possession a lot easier than City did.

Offline BabuYagu

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Re: Roundtable: Liverpool 5 Cheap Imitation Italian Suits 2
« Reply #44 on: April 26, 2018, 11:42:15 am »
This roundtable OP just put things in perfect perspective for me. I was left (as many) with a mixed feeling after the game ended, but now its like fck... we just did a number on Roma in the semi finals of the champions league. Great writeup, thanks!  :D

Appreciate the kind words mate. And everyone else.

Think the OP missed a key question - does Firmino's goal count as a 'no look'?

Jokes, aside, great post. And it's ridiculous that we are putting performances like this in European semi final. Don't remember this kind of demolition happening in the last 10 years.

So did a little research and the best shot I can find is this one.



So I am not liking this for his no look collection which needs to show a distinct head movement towards Karius as if to say "Yo, man-bun, look at me taking the piss over here!" Sorry mate. He's still on for a no-look hat-trick in the final though. :D

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Online KurtVerbose

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Re: Roundtable: Liverpool 5 Cheap Imitation Italian Suits 2
« Reply #45 on: April 26, 2018, 12:52:44 pm »
As an asside, should the rules of football be ammended to allow a team to throw in the towel, like boxing?
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Offline BabuYagu

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Re: Roundtable: Liverpool 5 Cheap Imitation Italian Suits 2
« Reply #46 on: April 26, 2018, 12:56:27 pm »
As an asside, should the rules of football be ammended to allow a team to throw in the towel, like boxing?

Would have seen United win the league under Ferguson without ever having needed to kick a ball. Instead we just saw a succession of his mates and ex-players roll up to Old Trafford and surrender 3 points to them on the pitch :D
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Offline phil236849

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Re: Roundtable: Liverpool 5 Cheap Imitation Italian Suits 2
« Reply #47 on: April 26, 2018, 12:59:07 pm »
I think we have 3 world class players - currently Salah is the 3rd best player in the world. Firmino is clearly world class. I am not so sure about Mane being world class. Van Dijk clearly is world class.

The incoming Keita is already world class and I reckon he will be giving the top 3 players in the world a run for their rmoney in the years to come.

Potentially, Alexander Arnold has what it takes if he continues to progress.

If we can add another potentially world class CB, a world class playmaking  midfielder like Jorginho and another potentially world class forward like Fekir to provide more depth as well as Sessegnon to understudy Robertson, we will be in an even better position.

I remember in the golden period of the 80s, reading an article I think before Rome in 84 - certainly around that time - which came out with the theory that to win a European Cup, you usually need 4 world class players.  Interestingly, I remember they identified the King, Rushy, Souey and ... Lawro!  I also recall that for a period around then, Lawro was generally regarded in the media as a better player than Jockey, who then in time usurped him with greater longevity and longer consistency.

Offline BabuYagu

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Re: Roundtable: Liverpool 5 Cheap Imitation Italian Suits 2
« Reply #48 on: April 26, 2018, 01:06:20 pm »
I remember in the golden period of the 80s, reading an article I think before Rome in 84 - certainly around that time - which came out with the theory that to win a European Cup, you usually need 4 world class players.  Interestingly, I remember they identified the King, Rushy, Souey and ... Lawro!  I also recall that for a period around then, Lawro was generally regarded in the media as a better player than Jockey, who then in time usurped him with greater longevity and longer consistency.
That's interesting stuff mate.

I had no idea Rush was held that highly so early. He was what, 21, 22 at that time?
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Offline koppitekop11

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Re: Roundtable: Liverpool 5 Cheap Imitation Italian Suits 2
« Reply #49 on: April 26, 2018, 01:06:44 pm »
Personal opinion but I strongly disagree that Karius pulled off a worldy save. He should be getting a much stronger hand to that and was extremely fortunate that it wasn't an inch lower.
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Offline stockdam

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Re: Roundtable: Liverpool 5 Cheap Imitation Italian Suits 2
« Reply #50 on: April 26, 2018, 01:15:18 pm »
Thanks BabuYagu, you put a lot of thought and effort into the OP.
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Re: Roundtable: Liverpool 5 Cheap Imitation Italian Suits 2
« Reply #51 on: April 26, 2018, 01:23:10 pm »
I can't add much to what has been said but will pickup on two points.

Karius' save? Well for me he was very lucky that it didn't go in. He saw the ball coming all the way and for me it was a poor save.

As for their first goal. I think Klopp may have made the wrong decision putting Ings on to replace Salah. Ings was not going to run away from the defence the way Salah had been doing and therefore I don't know why he was brought on. Our midfield had out-run the Roma midfield and were tiring. I would have brought on an extra midfield player to protect the lead. I don't think anyone was closing down in midfield when Roma scored. I don't like seeing us bring on an extra central defender as that for me just invites pressure; swamp midfield and let our defenders do their job; close down on crosses and through-balls.

In the 2nd leg it's going to be important that we stop them getting in crosses and also don't allow their midfield to have time on the ball. Our front three will take care of the rest.

« Last Edit: April 26, 2018, 01:25:02 pm by stockdam »
#JFT97

Offline Skeeve

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Re: Roundtable: Liverpool 5 Cheap Imitation Italian Suits 2
« Reply #52 on: April 26, 2018, 01:34:15 pm »
As for their first goal. I think Klopp may have made the wrong decision putting Ings on to replace Salah. Ings was not going to run away from the defence the way Salah had been doing and therefore I don't know why he was brought on. Our midfield had out-run the Roma midfield and were tiring. I would have brought on an extra midfield player to protect the lead. I don't think anyone was closing down in midfield when Roma scored. I don't like seeing us bring on an extra central defender as that for me just invites pressure; swamp midfield and let our defenders do their job; close down on crosses and through-balls.

The injury to Oxlade meant that Klopp had already used his only midfield sub up already, so other than adding a defender to midfield and potentially disrupting things even more with the change in formation, he went with are like for like swap when he realised that Salah was flagging and needed to be subbed.

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Re: Roundtable: Liverpool 5 Cheap Imitation Italian Suits 2
« Reply #53 on: April 26, 2018, 01:35:36 pm »
Personal opinion but I strongly disagree that Karius pulled off a worldy save. He should be getting a much stronger hand to that and was extremely fortunate that it wasn't an inch lower.
Karius' save? Well for me he was very lucky that it didn't go in. He saw the ball coming all the way and for me it was a poor save.

It was an inch lower though. Watch the gif in the OP a few times.

Then it inexplicably rises a few inches just as he is about to save it. That is why it is called a knuckleball and why it makes keepers look stupid.  Even legends like Jose Molina have been humiliated by them.

The way to deal with knuckleballs it to get your body in line with the shot and then react to it at the very last second. That is all you can do because the ball will move and change direction multiple times in the air. As this one did. It was dipping into his chest then starts going up again like it was a yoyo and God had just given the string a jerk back up.

Unfortunately if you are reacting to shots at the very last second you are going to look stupid when the ball travels a long distance. But with knuckleballs, it is not about looking good when you save it, just about saving it. Because most keepers don't as Migs found out when Xhaka smacked one past him earlier in the season.

As for their first goal. I think Klopp may have made the wrong decision putting Ings on to replace Salah. Ings was not going to run away from the defence the way Salah had been doing and therefore I don't know why he was brought on. Our midfield had out-run the Roma midfield and were tiring. I would have brought on an extra midfield player to protect the lead. I don't think anyone was closing down in midfield when Roma scored. I don't like seeing us bring on an extra central defender as that for me just invites pressure; swamp midfield and let our defenders do their job; close down on crosses and through-balls.
We don't have any :D This is kind of the problem that is being discussed to death in the midfield thread with options ranging from using one of Moreno, Gomez, Trent, Solanke, Ings as a makeshift midfielder.

I mentioned before but we dangerous close to needing to do a Mourinho and just playing without a midfield ;)
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Offline DanMB

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Re: Roundtable: Liverpool 5 Cheap Imitation Italian Suits 2
« Reply #54 on: April 26, 2018, 01:39:32 pm »
I somehow read the title as Cheap Imitation Italian Sluts :|

Offline Smellytrabs

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Re: Roundtable: Liverpool 5 Cheap Imitation Italian Suits 2
« Reply #55 on: April 26, 2018, 01:41:07 pm »
I somehow read the title as Cheap Imitation Italian Sluts :|

That is a great film though, really worth a watch.

Offline newterp

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Re: Roundtable: Liverpool 5 Cheap Imitation Italian Suits 2
« Reply #56 on: April 26, 2018, 02:08:03 pm »
That is a great film though, really worth a watch.

I can only get through about 1 minute at a time ....  :D

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Re: Roundtable: Liverpool 5 Cheap Imitation Italian Suits 2
« Reply #57 on: April 26, 2018, 02:24:04 pm »


For those who don't know, a knuckleball is a fast ball with little to no spin. This causes erratic movement in the air and also, in terms
of being able to calculate speed and distance of an object heading towards you, something that isn't rotating or rotating slowly can be
misleading. It doesn't feel like it is moving that fast until it gets very close - which is why you see that almost sudden movement of arms
of Karius. He is setting himself for the shot and the ball gets to him much quicker than he expects. Watch the ball dip then rise again
just before he saves it


Excellent post altogether. I just need to nitpick. The ball does not "rise again" before he saves it. This is an illusion due to the camera zoom.

In my opinion it's a decent save since the ball move much faster than expected given Kolarov's short run-up, but this action almost cost us a goal. It should have been punched away.

Great game from Karius overall.
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Offline jepovic

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Re: Roundtable: Liverpool 5 Cheap Imitation Italian Suits 2
« Reply #58 on: April 26, 2018, 02:24:59 pm »
Yeah, that was suicide by football. We did very well, but we created enough to score 10.
Much has been made of our relative struggle with lesser teams. Well, it's only the top teams that are arrogant and dunb enough to play a high line against us. Look at that fourth goal-roma is defending 4vs4 against arguably the best attack in the world. And how w can you purposely leave a single CB against Salah, with half the pitch empty behind and no pressure on the ball ?
None of the bottom half PL teams would do such a thing.

It's a bit like if Klopp would use Moreno and Clyne as CBs against Dzeko
« Last Edit: April 26, 2018, 02:35:13 pm by jepovic »

Offline kkjellquist

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Re: Roundtable: Liverpool 5 Cheap Imitation Italian Suits 2
« Reply #59 on: April 26, 2018, 02:33:00 pm »

For those who don't know, a knuckleball is a fast ball with little to no spin.

Just have to point out....a knuckleball is not a fast ball at all.  It's probably the slowest pitch on average thrown in competitive baseball.   ;)
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Re: Roundtable: Liverpool 5 Cheap Imitation Italian Suits 2
« Reply #60 on: April 26, 2018, 03:05:14 pm »
Am I right in remembering that Roma made 2 subs just after our 5th, which meant them switching to what looked to me as a 4-3-3?

If so, I wonder if they might start like that next week.

Offline Bob Sacamano

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Re: Roundtable: Liverpool 5 Cheap Imitation Italian Suits 2
« Reply #61 on: April 26, 2018, 03:35:11 pm »


I also have a lot of sympathy for Lovren today. He did fuck up however, if you don't put pressure on the ball and play a high line your defence will get picked off. We have seen it countless times, in fact the very first game we conceded in Europe this season is much of the same. Midfield doesn't press Nordveidt, he pings one from the half way line over Matip, TAA doesn't tuck in, Ulf brings it down and slots past a helpless Migs. We need to drop off if we cannot maintain that pressure on the ball but it also needs to be as a team rather than Lovren on his own. It's harsh to blame him for the goal because every defender is onto a loser in that situation. He has a list of bad options to pick from. But it's equally harsh to criticise Milner or Mane for not pressing the ball carrier - they must have been running on fumes by then after putting in a mammoth effort to get us into the 5-0 position to begin with.

I would suggest therefore that people celebrate the Liverpool team that has scored at least 5 goals against every side we have faced in europe this season, applaud them spanking Man City and Roma, and leave out the blame game. You will concede goals against top sides. If you blitz teams you will get tired. You cannot happily reap the benefits of our aggression and bemoan the consequences of it. This is Klopp's version of Rafa's short blanket.

We blitz teams and have spells where we struggle for energy. Accept it. Embrace it. FUCKING LOVE IT! Because it could very well be the gameplan that takes this team to it's 6th European Cup. A feat nobody would have predicted of us back in August. So don't be that wanker who criticises only the negatives and tells us what Klopp is doing wrong. Just accept to get this team where he has he must be doing almost everything very very right. Then sing with me ALLEZ! ALLEZ! ALLEZ!

I admire your efforts to defend Lovren, but you're being kind there, I think. It's impossible to always have pressure on the ball. Doubly so considering that we press, which means sometimes our press will be broken and opponents will have opportunities with the ball in space. Sometimes your defenders just need to handle their 1 v 1's.

As you say, Lovren does the right thing by dropping off so it would be wrong to criticize him for playing Dzeko onside. But he did the worst thing he could possibly have done, which is take himself out of the play. As long as he's simply there with Dzeko then the second ball was the only danger, and TAA had that covered. He does not need to win the ball. He does not even need to jump at all. But by jumping early and completely missing the ball, Dzeko can receive and control as opposed to attempting a difficult, contested header.

You make a great point that our style of play is going to result in goals conceded, and sometimes we have to live with that. But this was not an example of that. This was just one player making a terrible error. And I don't say this merely to apportion blame or bash Lovren (I will save that for later  :P), but because it's important to know exactly how and why every goal is conceded. If you chalk this one up to our style of play, then you are essentially saying it's not something we can prevent in the future. But this was an entirely preventable goal, in the sense that a defender whose default mode is not PANIC would have almost certainly done better. You could argue that Lovren's overall aggression and periods of dominance are worth his brain farts, but it would be misleading and counter-productive to attribute his brain farts to our system.

Offline koppitekop11

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Re: Roundtable: Liverpool 5 Cheap Imitation Italian Suits 2
« Reply #62 on: April 26, 2018, 03:53:26 pm »


The way to deal with knuckleballs it to get your body in line with the shot and then react to it at the very last second.


I agree with this point about dealing with them. The problem is that Karius, not for the first time this season, seems to deliberately get his body out of the way and dives at the ball with his hands.

A few games ago at home (sorry, I can't remember the exact fixture) he did the exact same. The opposition had a shot from point blank range and on the face of it it looked like an excellent save. On reflection, he actually flung his body of of the way and kept his hands in his original position. Looked flashy for the cameras but if he would have gotten his body behind the ball and maintained his original position it would have been a fairly straightforward stop.

This is not for one minute a Karius bashing post. I think he's been excellent recently and whilst I would like a new GK in the summer, I am confident and happy with him between the sticks. I just don't believe its an unfair criticism to say that he got lucky with this effort and that he should have done much better.

If anyone can refresh my memory and recall the shot I mentioned above that would be great (it was at the Anny Rod end) - it's driving me mad!
« Last Edit: April 26, 2018, 03:55:50 pm by koppitekop11 »
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Offline BabuYagu

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Re: Roundtable: Liverpool 5 Cheap Imitation Italian Suits 2
« Reply #63 on: April 26, 2018, 04:08:32 pm »
Just have to point out....a knuckleball is not a fast ball at all.  It's probably the slowest pitch on average thrown in competitive baseball.   ;)
You are right, apologies. In football though, they are. Fredy Guarin's clocked in at 84 kmh.
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Re: Roundtable: Liverpool 5 Cheap Imitation Italian Suits 2
« Reply #64 on: April 26, 2018, 04:09:44 pm »
Lovren's only error was believing he was eight feet tall. Totally forgivable after the performance of everyone of those giants to get us to 5-0 !

Also I think taking Salah off may have been a mental trigger to some or all of our guys that the job was done. They just didn't seem to have the same concentration, combined with obviously the tiredness from the effort they had expended to get to 5-0.

It is what it is. We will finish them of on their own ground. Be kind of nice to see them all deflated again, like they were on Wednesday.

Hope raised and dashed!

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Re: Roundtable: Liverpool 5 Cheap Imitation Italian Suits 2
« Reply #65 on: April 26, 2018, 04:15:18 pm »
I admire your efforts to defend Lovren, but you're being kind there, I think. It's impossible to always have pressure on the ball. Doubly so considering that we press, which means sometimes our press will be broken and opponents will have opportunities with the ball in space. Sometimes your defenders just need to handle their 1 v 1's.

As you say, Lovren does the right thing by dropping off so it would be wrong to criticize him for playing Dzeko onside. But he did the worst thing he could possibly have done, which is take himself out of the play. As long as he's simply there with Dzeko then the second ball was the only danger, and TAA had that covered. He does not need to win the ball. He does not even need to jump at all. But by jumping early and completely missing the ball, Dzeko can receive and control as opposed to attempting a difficult, contested header.

You make a great point that our style of play is going to result in goals conceded, and sometimes we have to live with that. But this was not an example of that. This was just one player making a terrible error. And I don't say this merely to apportion blame or bash Lovren (I will save that for later  :P), but because it's important to know exactly how and why every goal is conceded. If you chalk this one up to our style of play, then you are essentially saying it's not something we can prevent in the future. But this was an entirely preventable goal, in the sense that a defender whose default mode is not PANIC would have almost certainly done better. You could argue that Lovren's overall aggression and periods of dominance are worth his brain farts, but it would be misleading and counter-productive to attribute his brain farts to our system.
If you watch the game back you will see countless examples of players stepping in very quickly to win a 50/50 challenge. in doing so they on many occasions over committed and had they not won the ball, allowed the opposition to get behind us or through us. For at least 60 minutes this worked like a dream, with only one or two situations not panning out in our favour, and they came to nothing.

I think Lovren is doing the same thing here attempting the header, as he had been doing all game committing to challenges rather that dropping off. He misjudged this one - but if he decides his job is  to take the safe option, and the other 3 defenders and mids do the same, we aren't 5-0 up in the game.
Its a consequence of the style of play Jurgen wants, and its incredibly hard to switch mid game.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2018, 04:16:58 pm by Miltonred »

Offline Bob Sacamano

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Re: Roundtable: Liverpool 5 Cheap Imitation Italian Suits 2
« Reply #66 on: April 26, 2018, 04:23:26 pm »
If you watch the game back you will see countless examples of players stepping in very quickly to win a 50/50 challenge. in doing so they on many occasions over committed and had they not won the ball, allowed the opposition to get behind us or through us. For at least 60 minutes this worked like a dream, with only one or two situations not panning out in our favour, and they came to nothing.

I think Lovren is doing the same thing here attempting the header, as he had been doing all game committing to challenges rather that dropping off. He misjudged this one - but if he decides his job is  to take the safe option, and the other 3 defenders and mids do the same, we aren't 5-0 up in the game.
Its a consequence of the style of play Jurgen wants, and its incredibly hard to switch mid game.

There is a massive difference between aggressive/committed challenges high up the pitch (where the risk of missing is lower and the reward of winning the ball is higher) and being the last man back on a floated ball into the box. The safe option is the only option. The mistake was a consequence of Lovren's style of play, not Klopp's.

Offline Bobinhood

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Re: Roundtable: Liverpool 5 Cheap Imitation Italian Suits 2
« Reply #67 on: April 26, 2018, 04:48:49 pm »
They cant handle the truth Salah.
Amplification does not equal truth. 

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Offline NHRed

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Re: Roundtable: Liverpool 5 Cheap Imitation Italian Suits 2
« Reply #68 on: April 26, 2018, 06:19:19 pm »
Those TV expert wankers don't know what a knuckleball is? Wankers. Should be paying me to do their analysis. :D

I genuinely expect Jamie Redknapp to come out and tell us Karius should have caught that. I mean it was right at him!

Somewhere Doug Mirabelli is laughing his ass off.


(Okay, explaining the obscure Red Sox reference:  Knuckleballs are hard to catch because they're so unpredictable.  Baseball pitchers who specialize in them tend to have catchers (think wicketkeeper) who are defensive specialists.  For many years, the Red Sox catcher for our knuckleball pitcher (a guy named Tim Wakefield) was Doug Mirabelli.)

Offline NYCRedsFan

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Re: Roundtable: Liverpool 5 Cheap Imitation Italian Suits 2
« Reply #69 on: April 26, 2018, 06:58:01 pm »
Jesus always saves :D
And Firmino scores on the rebound
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Offline stockdam

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Re: Roundtable: Liverpool 5 Cheap Imitation Italian Suits 2
« Reply #70 on: April 26, 2018, 07:41:14 pm »
The injury to Oxlade meant that Klopp had already used his only midfield sub up already, so other than adding a defender to midfield and potentially disrupting things even more with the change in formation, he went with are like for like swap when he realised that Salah was flagging and needed to be subbed.

Point taken and it's easy in hindsight to criticise. We appeared to flag a bit against WBA and it appears we may have done similar against Roma. Putting a defender into midfield isn't disrupting our formation though, most of our defenders are more than capable of playing midfield if needed. There comes a point in the game where you need to take what you have and ensure that the match fizzles out. If, after Ings came on, we scored another 2 then I'd obviously say that the right decision had been made.

However the one small issue that I have is sometimes after pressing for so long in a match we may need to become boring and throttle midfield towards the end if possible.
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Re: Roundtable: Liverpool 5 Cheap Imitation Italian Suits 2
« Reply #71 on: April 26, 2018, 07:43:40 pm »
Personal opinion but I strongly disagree that Karius pulled off a worldy save. He should be getting a much stronger hand to that and was extremely fortunate that it wasn't an inch lower.

It’s not the popular opinion around these parts but it’s the correct one.

For all the talk of the ball knuckleballing, it actually is hit more on a rope than a lot of knuckling shots I’ve seen. It certainly wasn’t a worldy save as you correctly point out. Don’t think he expected the shot to be hit with so much speed (his hands are still coming upward when the ball gets to his gloves) and he got enough of a hand to it to push it on the bar and we got lucky. It’s not heresy saying that. Sometimes it’s better to be lucky than good!
« Last Edit: April 26, 2018, 07:50:17 pm by Lone Star Red »
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Re: Roundtable: Liverpool 5 Cheap Imitation Italian Suits 2
« Reply #72 on: April 26, 2018, 08:20:03 pm »
It’s not the popular opinion around these parts but it’s the correct one.

For all the talk of the ball knuckleballing, it actually is hit more on a rope than a lot of knuckling shots I’ve seen. It certainly wasn’t a worldy save as you correctly point out. Don’t think he expected the shot to be hit with so much speed (his hands are still coming upward when the ball gets to his gloves) and he got enough of a hand to it to push it on the bar and we got lucky. It’s not heresy saying that. Sometimes it’s better to be lucky than good!
David De Gea is the luckiest fella in the PL

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Re: Roundtable: Liverpool 5 Cheap Imitation Italian Suits 2
« Reply #73 on: April 26, 2018, 10:46:20 pm »
It’s not the popular opinion around these parts but it’s the correct one.

For all the talk of the ball knuckleballing, it actually is hit more on a rope than a lot of knuckling shots I’ve seen. It certainly wasn’t a worldy save as you correctly point out. Don’t think he expected the shot to be hit with so much speed (his hands are still coming upward when the ball gets to his gloves) and he got enough of a hand to it to push it on the bar and we got lucky. It’s not heresy saying that. Sometimes it’s better to be lucky than good!

His hands are still coming up because he was setting himself before the ball started rising again.
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Offline Iloveyoumamadou

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Re: Roundtable: Liverpool 5 Cheap Imitation Italian Suits 2
« Reply #74 on: April 27, 2018, 02:55:48 am »
Here's a short twitter thread analysing the game https://twitter.com/jadamsftbl/status/989555627377741826

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Re: Roundtable: Liverpool 5 Cheap Imitation Italian Suits 2
« Reply #75 on: April 27, 2018, 03:33:31 am »
I admire your efforts to defend Lovren, but you're being kind there, I think. It's impossible to always have pressure on the ball. Doubly so considering that we press, which means sometimes our press will be broken and opponents will have opportunities with the ball in space. Sometimes your defenders just need to handle their 1 v 1's.

As you say, Lovren does the right thing by dropping off so it would be wrong to criticize him for playing Dzeko onside. But he did the worst thing he could possibly have done, which is take himself out of the play. As long as he's simply there with Dzeko then the second ball was the only danger, and TAA had that covered. He does not need to win the ball. He does not even need to jump at all. But by jumping early and completely missing the ball, Dzeko can receive and control as opposed to attempting a difficult, contested header.

You make a great point that our style of play is going to result in goals conceded, and sometimes we have to live with that. But this was not an example of that. This was just one player making a terrible error. And I don't say this merely to apportion blame or bash Lovren (I will save that for later  :P), but because it's important to know exactly how and why every goal is conceded. If you chalk this one up to our style of play, then you are essentially saying it's not something we can prevent in the future. But this was an entirely preventable goal, in the sense that a defender whose default mode is not PANIC would have almost certainly done better. You could argue that Lovren's overall aggression and periods of dominance are worth his brain farts, but it would be misleading and counter-productive to attribute his brain farts to our system.

It is possible to see Lovren's strong points and at the same time point out that he has some serious issues - wrong decision making as in this example, and concentration levels that can snap during a game. As for the former, Lovren has already cost us two easy goals because he jumped for a completely unopposed long ball and totally missed it, knowing that the opposing centreforward is off his right shoulder almost anticipating that he may miss it. In the Spurs game it was Kane and in the Roma game it was Dzeko. How can the opposing centreforward (who is mostly facing the goal and looking over his shoulder at the ball) anticipate the long ball's flight and trajectory better than the defending centreback who is actually facing the ball and tracking it all the way as it flies towards him?

I do not know why anyone is attempting to excuse Lovren for this totally inexcusable error. If this is not addressed, Lovren will almost certainly do it again and other teams will target this weakness of his and it will cost us more cheap goals.

If this kind of flaw is not able to be coached out of him, then he will need to be replaced by a better centreback for next season.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2018, 03:35:12 am by ThePoolMan »

Offline sempi

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Re: Roundtable: Liverpool 5 Cheap Imitation Italian Suits 2
« Reply #76 on: April 27, 2018, 04:16:49 am »
It is possible to see Lovren's strong points and at the same time point out that he has some serious issues - wrong decision making as in this example, and concentration levels that can snap during a game. As for the former, Lovren has already cost us two easy goals because he jumped for a completely unopposed long ball and totally missed it, knowing that the opposing centreforward is off his right shoulder almost anticipating that he may miss it. In the Spurs game it was Kane and in the Roma game it was Dzeko. How can the opposing centreforward (who is mostly facing the goal and looking over his shoulder at the ball) anticipate the long ball's flight and trajectory better than the defending centreback who is actually facing the ball and tracking it all the way as it flies towards him?

I do not know why anyone is attempting to excuse Lovren for this totally inexcusable error. If this is not addressed, Lovren will almost certainly do it again and other teams will target this weakness of his and it will cost us more cheap goals.

If this kind of flaw is not able to be coached out of him, then he will need to be replaced by a better centreback for next season.
I don't think Lovren can be coached out of his flaws. Admittedly, he has improved in recent months but not enough.
He is what he is , the third choice defender behind Matip and Dick Van Dyk.

Offline ThePoolMan

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Re: Roundtable: Liverpool 5 Cheap Imitation Italian Suits 2
« Reply #77 on: April 27, 2018, 04:24:57 am »
I don't think Lovren can be coached out of his flaws. Admittedly, he has improved in recent months but not enough.
He is what he is , the third choice defender behind Matip and Dick Van Dyk.

However Matip is perceived as being weaker in the air than Lovren so if Lovren cannot be improved, then we need a new and better CB for next season as first choice to partner Van Dijk.

Offline sempi

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Re: Roundtable: Liverpool 5 Cheap Imitation Italian Suits 2
« Reply #78 on: April 27, 2018, 04:51:42 am »
I remember in the golden period of the 80s, reading an article I think before Rome in 84 - certainly around that time - which came out with the theory that to win a European Cup, you usually need 4 world class players.  Interestingly, I remember they identified the King, Rushy, Souey and ... Lawro!  I also recall that for a period around then, Lawro was generally regarded in the media as a better player than Jockey, who then in time usurped him with greater longevity and longer consistency.
Under Shankly, no one of our team was classed as world class, in fact, they struggled to get into their respective international teams. I would argue Bobby Firmino is probably the worldy that would make anyone look brilliant. His movement off the ball creates so much space for others to be so devastating.
Look at the ball to Gini, its just bad luck he doesn't connect.

Offline Frizzo

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Re: Roundtable: Liverpool 5 Cheap Imitation Italian Suits 2
« Reply #79 on: April 27, 2018, 05:16:53 am »
This Karius discussion is a perfect example of how people analyse goalkeepers, and the confirmation bias therein.

It wasn't a brilliant save. It wasn't a terrible mistake.

Truth is it was in the middle. It wasn't great goalkeeping but he did enough to keep it out. He did ok.

This isn't a perfect example of it, but I always find it funny when commentators/fans will hail a brilliant save,  however if the exact same shot went in the keeper would be slaughtered.