Author Topic: Churchill  (Read 36106 times)

Offline oldfordie

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Re: Churchill
« Reply #200 on: January 26, 2018, 12:54:20 pm »
War is never a pretty business and by its very nature immoral. You don't have to look far to find instances / actions / behaviours which in ordinary context makes your skin crawl.

Does the end justify the means? Well I'm pleased we have a certain freedom that undoubtedly would not have been available had Germany conquered all.

The reality is at a time where sometimes there are no 'good choices' -  we had somebody able to make choices and see them through, thankfully achieving an end result which has evolved into many positive things including the European Union.

Famine - withholding food, whatever the motivation - is irrelevant now, what good does debating it solve?
The one thing ive taken from the last few years is sometimes important events hit us and we don't fully appreciate the impact they have in other areas in the following years, areas that can hurt  our lives far more in the long term.
Hitler may have wanted to do a lot of things but he could never have gained the power to do them in a healthy economic society. theres no doubt over Germany having a legitimate grievance after the cruel Versailles treaty was forced on them, even so they were going along very nicely till the 1926 crash hit. fast forward to 2008 crash and look what happened in the following years. Trump in the USA, who knows where he we lead the world. a hard right+left left parties in the UK, millions feeling they have no representation. both ideologies wanting to change this country forever, both using bullshit to convince people they will be better off.
It's very important the world learns one big lesson. police the economic system more rigorously, if we don't then we will all pay the price in the following years.
It's good to debate what has happened in history and opinions on how it came about, if we don't then we will repeat the same mistakes.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2018, 12:56:02 pm by oldfordie »
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Offline Sangria

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Re: Churchill
« Reply #201 on: January 26, 2018, 01:29:06 pm »
Cheers.

Can you expand on 2) a bit please? Why was Germany's land grabbing worse than the UK's?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunger_Plan

That's not starvation due to not doing enough. That's starvation and extermination as a deliberate plan to feed the German war machine and vacate the land for use by German colonists.
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Re: Churchill
« Reply #202 on: January 26, 2018, 02:41:30 pm »
Read Mein Kampf (if you can’t find a copy try ordering a copy from India where it’s a best seller). Hitler wasn’t just grabbing land. He wanted the systematic destruction of entire groups of people, Jews being the principal target, to provide lebensraum for Germans and people of German descent.

In India the midel was different with a small population of administrators and military leaders. There were a few hundred thousands British in a total population in the hundreds of millions.

So that's all absolutely true and we know this through the benefit of hindsight. What you quoted though was in relation to Ireland's decision to remain neutral during the war, so from an Irish perspective in 1939, given what they (and the rest of the world) knew, can you argue that Germany's land grabbing was worse than Britains? Especially with regards to "the systematic destruction of entire groups of people, Jews being the principal target", is that really a stick we can beat the Irish with, given that;

1) The systematic destruction of entire groups of people, principally Jews, didn't begin until 1941;

2) If I'm not wrong, wasn't the actual extent of the holocaust not known until much later still, namely when the camps were being liberated;

3) If the Irish did have an inking of what was happening to the Jews in Nazi occupied Europe (which it seems they didn't), if we're to blame them for not joining in the fight would it also be fair to similarly blame every other nation of Earth for not declaring war on the Russians/Soviets for the Pogroms which had been happening over decades up to that point (the point being, was declaring war on a country the 'done thing' at the time against countries that were destroying groups of people?).


Just trying to be hyperrational and establish whether Ireland's neutrality is actually a stick to beat them with, as often seems to be the case, or whether it was actually understandable, all things considered.

Offline SP

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Re: Churchill
« Reply #203 on: January 26, 2018, 02:58:26 pm »

1) The systematic destruction of entire groups of people, principally Jews, didn't begin until 1941;


The oppression and the forfeiture of property and the existence of work camps was known. The unspeakable horrors that they escalated to was not known. 

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Re: Churchill
« Reply #204 on: January 26, 2018, 03:07:43 pm »
The oppression and the forfeiture of property and the existence of work camps was known. The unspeakable horrors that they escalated to was not known. 

So in the context of whether Ireland should have declared war on Germany, do you think that, given what they knew about the oppression, forfeiture of property and existence of work camps, and given the norms of the time (no one declaring war over the Pogroms), that Ireland were unreasonable to not declare war on Germany?

(Apologies for the persistence, I'm genuinely just curious whether Ireland were wrong to be neutral, all things considered).

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Re: Churchill
« Reply #205 on: January 26, 2018, 03:22:14 pm »
Terrible things we've done in the past certainly aren't a secret in Britain, or hidden from the public, but you massively overplay how much exposure they get. Yes, it's discussed amongst left leaning intellectuals, yes its discussed by leftie students, yes it's discussed on obscure BBC2 or BBC4 documentaries with minimal viewing figures, that is all true.

But if you think most of our country are exposed to the horrible things we've done you're sadly mistaken - it's not taught in schools (certainly not in the 80s or 90s when I was a kid)

I know you've disclosed the years you went to school there but I have to butt in here mate and say that's nonsense. I learned extensively about British involvement in China and in particular India at GCSE and A Level. Atrocities such as Amritsar, the famines and the Opium wars are very much taught. There is no cover-up, even in our involvement in events as recent as the Suez crisis.

The slave trade, Boer wars and atrocities Africa in general does seem to be a bit of a different matter unfortunately.

Offline Xabi Gerrard

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Re: Churchill
« Reply #206 on: January 26, 2018, 03:29:38 pm »
I know you've disclosed the years you went to school there but I have to butt in here mate and say that's nonsense. I learned extensively about British involvement in China and in particular India at GCSE and A Level. Atrocities such as Amritsar, the famines and the Opium wars are very much taught. There is no cover-up, even in our involvement in events as recent as the Suez crisis.

The slave trade, Boer wars and atrocities Africa in general does seem to be a bit of a different matter unfortunately.

Yeah subsequent to my post it seems like some people did learn, some people didn't. SP posted a syllabus that did contain some references to our colonialism and Tepid pointed out that in that particular case the subject matter wasn't necessarily about the bad side of it. We also learned that an ex-England cricketer's cousin taught SP about the ills of the British colonies :)

Guess it is/was taught in some schools, not in others. Sometimes by cousins of ex-England cricketers, sometimes by people with no relations in the England cricket team.

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Re: Churchill
« Reply #207 on: January 26, 2018, 03:32:53 pm »
So that's all absolutely true and we know this through the benefit of hindsight. What you quoted though was in relation to Ireland's decision to remain neutral during the war, so from an Irish perspective in 1939, given what they (and the rest of the world) knew, can you argue that Germany's land grabbing was worse than Britains? Especially with regards to "the systematic destruction of entire groups of people, Jews being the principal target", is that really a stick we can beat the Irish with, given that;

1) The systematic destruction of entire groups of people, principally Jews, didn't begin until 1941;

2) If I'm not wrong, wasn't the actual extent of the holocaust not known until much later still, namely when the camps were being liberated;

3) If the Irish did have an inking of what was happening to the Jews in Nazi occupied Europe (which it seems they didn't), if we're to blame them for not joining in the fight would it also be fair to similarly blame every other nation of Earth for not declaring war on the Russians/Soviets for the Pogroms which had been happening over decades up to that point (the point being, was declaring war on a country the 'done thing' at the time against countries that were destroying groups of people?).


Just trying to be hyperrational and establish whether Ireland's neutrality is actually a stick to beat them with, as often seems to be the case, or whether it was actually understandable, all things considered.

The basic fact, recognised by the best Irish historians, is that Ireland was allowed to be 'neutral' because the Royal Navy protected its waters. The Irish government in other words relied on British defences. They knew that the Royal Navy wouldn't desert this task because it was extremely important to British security - and the free world's - that the Nazis didn't land an invasion force in Ireland and attack the British across the Irish Sea.

That Nazi invasion force in Ireland would not have been a nice thing for the Irish population to deal with. That's because the key agency in any Nazi invasion force was the SS. The Irish government knew this in 1939 because the SS had already been operating in - and 'purifying' - Austria, Czechoslovakia and Poland. They were well informed about the State Terror that always followed Nazi jurisdiction. You don't appear to know it, but Dachau was opened in 1933 by the SS and the first eighteen months of Nazi power in Germany were accompanied by astonishing amounts of persecution and State murder and torture of political opponents. The same pattern was repeated, with more brutality, every time the Nazis occupied a foreign country.

Added to which the Irish would have been considered an inferior race - Celts, Gaels, whatever. They were neither 'Nordic' or Protestant and this would have meant that the Irish people would likely as not faced the same treatment as the Poles and the Czechs - ie treated as little better than cattle. Perhaps the Protestant Ascendancy would have produced a puppet government for the Nazis in Ireland but your ordinary Catholic Irish citizen would have had a terrible time. Any non-Nazi Irish organisation (ie practically every Irish organisation) would have been purged or liquidated.

Your one semi-relevant point, which you've used twice now, is that no one knew the full dimensions of the Holocaust until 1944-45. That's true. But the entire world knew about Nazi brutality - some as early as 1933, everyone else by Kristallnacht in 1938. The Irish government certainly knew about the Holocaust when it sent its condolences to the German embassy on the day Hitler died.

 
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Re: Churchill
« Reply #208 on: January 26, 2018, 03:36:04 pm »
So that's all absolutely true and we know this through the benefit of hindsight. What you quoted though was in relation to Ireland's decision to remain neutral during the war, so from an Irish perspective in 1939, given what they (and the rest of the world) knew, can you argue that Germany's land grabbing was worse than Britains? Especially with regards to "the systematic destruction of entire groups of people, Jews being the principal target", is that really a stick we can beat the Irish with, given that;

1) The systematic destruction of entire groups of people, principally Jews, didn't begin until 1941;

2) If I'm not wrong, wasn't the actual extent of the holocaust not known until much later still, namely when the camps were being liberated;

3) If the Irish did have an inking of what was happening to the Jews in Nazi occupied Europe (which it seems they didn't), if we're to blame them for not joining in the fight would it also be fair to similarly blame every other nation of Earth for not declaring war on the Russians/Soviets for the Pogroms which had been happening over decades up to that point (the point being, was declaring war on a country the 'done thing' at the time against countries that were destroying groups of people?).


Just trying to be hyperrational and establish whether Ireland's neutrality is actually a stick to beat them with, as often seems to be the case, or whether it was actually understandable, all things considered.

The Irish knew about the oppression of the Jews in Germany for years before the war. The Irish envoy in Germany was a known anti semite, a known anti British, pro Nazi individual - Brewley I think his name was. AFAIK, he was only removed from office after he agreed to the annexation of Czechoslovakia.

De Valera was probably in a tough place politically. Germany & britain were the 2 powerhouses in europe at the time and as a small nation i doubt we saw much difference between the 2 in the lead up to the war. The majority of Irish at the time, and I get this from the few people I've known who were alive then, were rabidly anti British. Wounds were still fresh in a lot of their minds, my own grandmother was shot by the black & tans as a six year old, and 700 years of oppression aren't easily forgotten.

That doesn't condone de valera's condolences on Hitlers death or the prevailing anti Semitic views held by a country full of strict catholics. Still, as has been pointed out you only have to look at what happened to the men who served in the British army on their return to Ireland after the war, and after all the atrocities had come to light, to see that the decision to stay out wasn't entirely a bad one to make as a politician in this country at the time.

Its way better now, but even still I get mocked for following a team that plays that "fucking foreign game". Maybe island nations are destined to be that way? We still are 'neutral' yet we allow foreign armies to use our land and air to fight wars because to not do so would harm us.

Offline Xabi Gerrard

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Re: Churchill
« Reply #209 on: January 26, 2018, 03:39:38 pm »
The basic fact, recognised by the best Irish historians, is that Ireland was allowed to be 'neutral' because the Royal Navy protected its waters. The Irish government in other words relied on British defences. They knew that the Royal Navy wouldn't desert this task because it was extremely important to British security - and the free world's - that the Nazis didn't land an invasion force in Ireland and attack the British across the Irish Sea.

That Nazi invasion force in Ireland would not have been a nice thing for the Irish population to deal with. That's because the key agency in any Nazi invasion force was the SS. The Irish government knew this in 1939 because the SS had already been operating in - and 'purifying' - Austria, Czechoslovakia and Poland. They were well informed about the State Terror that always followed Nazi jurisdiction. You don't appear to know it, but Dachau was opened in 1933 by the SS and the first eighteen months of Nazi power in Germany were accompanied by astonishing amounts of persecution and State murder and torture of political opponents. The same pattern was repeated, with more brutality, every time the Nazis occupied a foreign country.

Added to which the Irish would have been considered an inferior race - Celts, Gaels, whatever. They were neither 'Nordic' or Protestant and this would have meant that the Irish people would likely as not faced the same treatment as the Poles and the Czechs - ie treated as little better than cattle. Perhaps the Protestant Ascendancy would have produced a puppet government for the Nazis in Ireland but your ordinary Catholic Irish citizen would have had a terrible time. Any non-Nazi Irish organisation (ie practically every Irish organisation) would have been purged or liquidated.

Your one semi-relevant point, which you've used twice now, is that no one knew the full dimensions of the Holocaust until 1944-45. That's true. But the entire world knew about Nazi brutality - some as early as 1933, everyone else by Kristallnacht in 1938. The Irish government certainly knew about the Holocaust when it sent its condolences to the German embassy on the day Hitler died.

 

Cheers, really good summary (even if I do detect a bit of unnecessary tartiness at the end)  :thumbup

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Re: Churchill
« Reply #210 on: January 26, 2018, 03:40:59 pm »
Cheers, really good summary (even if I do detect a bit of unnecessary tartiness at the end)  :thumbup

Tartness, surely, not tartiness?
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Re: Churchill
« Reply #211 on: January 26, 2018, 03:41:11 pm »
The Irish knew about the oppression of the Jews in Germany for years before the war. The Irish envoy in Germany was a known anti semite, a known anti British, pro Nazi individual - Brewley I think his name was. AFAIK, he was only removed from office after he agreed to the annexation of Czechoslovakia.

De Valera was probably in a tough place politically. Germany & britain were the 2 powerhouses in europe at the time and as a small nation i doubt we saw much difference between the 2 in the lead up to the war. The majority of Irish at the time, and I get this from the few people I've known who were alive then, were rabidly anti British. Wounds were still fresh in a lot of their minds, my own grandmother was shot by the black & tans as a six year old, and 700 years of oppression aren't easily forgotten.

That doesn't condone de valera's condolences on Hitlers death or the prevailing anti Semitic views held by a country full of strict catholics. Still, as has been pointed out you only have to look at what happened to the men who served in the British army on their return to Ireland after the war, and after all the atrocities had come to light, to see that the decision to stay out wasn't entirely a bad one to make as a politician in this country at the time.

Its way better now, but even still I get mocked for following a team that plays that "fucking foreign game". Maybe island nations are destined to be that way? We still are 'neutral' yet we allow foreign armies to use our land and air to fight wars because to not do so would harm us.

Another really good summary, thanks.

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Re: Churchill
« Reply #212 on: January 26, 2018, 03:42:05 pm »
Tartness, surely, not tartiness?

Both are actually quite fitting come to think of it  :-*

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Re: Churchill
« Reply #213 on: January 26, 2018, 03:47:26 pm »
Tartness, surely, not tartiness?

We all saw the way you’re dressed Yorky.

Offline Yorkykopite

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Re: Churchill
« Reply #214 on: January 26, 2018, 03:57:38 pm »
We all saw the way you’re dressed Yorky.

It was you who insisted on matching outfits. 
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Re: Churchill
« Reply #215 on: January 26, 2018, 04:01:17 pm »
So that's all absolutely true and we know this through the benefit of hindsight. What you quoted though was in relation to Ireland's decision to remain neutral during the war, so from an Irish perspective in 1939, given what they (and the rest of the world) knew, can you argue that Germany's land grabbing was worse than Britains? Especially with regards to "the systematic destruction of entire groups of people, Jews being the principal target", is that really a stick we can beat the Irish with, given that;

1) The systematic destruction of entire groups of people, principally Jews, didn't begin until 1941;

2) If I'm not wrong, wasn't the actual extent of the holocaust not known until much later still, namely when the camps were being liberated;

3) If the Irish did have an inking of what was happening to the Jews in Nazi occupied Europe (which it seems they didn't), if we're to blame them for not joining in the fight would it also be fair to similarly blame every other nation of Earth for not declaring war on the Russians/Soviets for the Pogroms which had been happening over decades up to that point (the point being, was declaring war on a country the 'done thing' at the time against countries that were destroying groups of people?).


Just trying to be hyperrational and establish whether Ireland's neutrality is actually a stick to beat them with, as often seems to be the case, or whether it was actually understandable, all things considered.

If you want to see how the Irish viewed the respective sides at the time, you can compare the numbers of Irish volunteers on either side. If you want a reasonably objective assessment of Ireland's moral position during the war, you can have a look at how Allied volunteers were treated after they returned, when German activities during the war were common knowledge. If both sides were viewed equally during the war, one can expect equal numbers of volunteers on both sides, or at least reasonable numbers of volunteers on the Axis side given that the RN would prevent equality. If Ireland's neutrality was a moral position, then you'd expect returning volunteers to be treated reasonably well after it became known what they were fighting against. Instead, way more Irish volunteered for the Allied side than the Axis side, while returning volunteers were ostracised by both state and society (some were pardoned for treason less than 10 years ago).
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Offline oldfordie

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Re: Churchill
« Reply #216 on: January 26, 2018, 04:01:41 pm »
So that's all absolutely true and we know this through the benefit of hindsight. What you quoted though was in relation to Ireland's decision to remain neutral during the war, so from an Irish perspective in 1939, given what they (and the rest of the world) knew, can you argue that Germany's land grabbing was worse than Britains? Especially with regards to "the systematic destruction of entire groups of people, Jews being the principal target", is that really a stick we can beat the Irish with, given that;

1) The systematic destruction of entire groups of people, principally Jews, didn't begin until 1941;

2) If I'm not wrong, wasn't the actual extent of the holocaust not known until much later still, namely when the camps were being liberated;

3) If the Irish did have an inking of what was happening to the Jews in Nazi occupied Europe (which it seems they didn't), if we're to blame them for not joining in the fight would it also be fair to similarly blame every other nation of Earth for not declaring war on the Russians/Soviets for the Pogroms which had been happening over decades up to that point (the point being, was declaring war on a country the 'done thing' at the time against countries that were destroying groups of people?).


Just trying to be hyperrational and establish whether Ireland's neutrality is actually a stick to beat them with, as often seems to be the case, or whether it was actually understandable, all things considered.
The Germans didn't just land grab, the first thing the Germans did when they invaded a country was to head straight for their national bank, they took everything to pay for the German war machine. they looted the countries wealth.
We have to remember the devastation of WW1 was still fresh in peoples minds.nobody wanted war, something Hitler knew and exploited, when people say Ireland or whoever made the decision to remain neutral they have to remember the whole of Europe remained neutral while Germany seized Austria,Czechoslovakia,  Europe sold Czechoslovakia out in the hope it would appease Hitler. they hoped he would leave us alone to live in peace. wishful thinking, can we rule out wishful thinking with Ireland.  I can understand Ireland hoping the Germans would leave them alone if they remained neutral, the evidence showed the Germans cared little about countries wanting peace, in fact Hitler played on it. the only country who manged to stay out of it on mainland Europe was Spain. Franco was very clever, one of the few people who worked it up Hitler, led Hitler along for years with false promises. Switzerland was unique.
 Hitler would have occupied Ireland had he taken Britain.
If I remember right the holocaust was brought to the attention of Churchill in 1944 after a few escapees from Auschwitz presented him with the all the evidence, drawings and facts etc. they wanted Britain to obliterate it with bombs, I don't think people really understand just how bad things were till the camps were liberated. even the prisoners of Auschwitz prayed the planes would drop bombs as they flew over the camp. like India, Churchill refused to divert bombers from the war effort.
Many of those bombers were actually flying over Auschwitz on occasions, photos were taken of the camp.
Churchill was a bas but his decisions were based on wining the war at all costs.

« Last Edit: January 26, 2018, 04:05:07 pm by oldfordie »
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Offline Sangria

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Re: Churchill
« Reply #217 on: January 26, 2018, 04:06:26 pm »
I know you've disclosed the years you went to school there but I have to butt in here mate and say that's nonsense. I learned extensively about British involvement in China and in particular India at GCSE and A Level. Atrocities such as Amritsar, the famines and the Opium wars are very much taught. There is no cover-up, even in our involvement in events as recent as the Suez crisis.

The slave trade, Boer wars and atrocities Africa in general does seem to be a bit of a different matter unfortunately.

It was electoral and social reforms of the late 19th century for me, followed by Ireland, followed by WWI, followed by Germany in the 1920s-30s. A Eurocentric study of the roots of modern Britain, with hardly a sniff of empire, neither glorifying nor criticising.
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Re: Churchill
« Reply #218 on: January 26, 2018, 04:20:38 pm »
So in the context of whether Ireland should have declared war on Germany, do you think that, given what they knew about the oppression, forfeiture of property and existence of work camps, and given the norms of the time (no one declaring war over the Pogroms), that Ireland were unreasonable to not declare war on Germany?

(Apologies for the persistence, I'm genuinely just curious whether Ireland were wrong to be neutral, all things considered).

It's impossible to disregard hindsight. I can understand Ireland's position. The demonisation of their own citizens who fought the Nazis is the only real bone of contention but compared to what we are discussing here, that was trivial. 

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Re: Churchill
« Reply #219 on: January 26, 2018, 04:26:45 pm »
We also learned that an ex-England cricketer's cousin taught SP about the ills of the British colonies :)

I though Yorky was going to start guessing the Cricketer.

The syllabus was the Key Stage 3 National Curriculum taught to all 11-14 year olds. But as it is optional - it depends on the choices your teacher made.

Which is in itself interesting. Whilst it is an important topic, I would still prefer to see the current choice available to History teachers remain. Please spare us from micromanaged curricula.

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Re: Churchill
« Reply #220 on: January 26, 2018, 04:34:51 pm »
Sangria, Oldfordie, thanks for your explanations - every day's a school day, eh!

SP - think you're going to need to give more clues - batsman, bowler, wk or all rounder?! Anyway, I'm guessing Beefy.

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Re: Churchill
« Reply #221 on: January 26, 2018, 04:42:03 pm »
I though Yorky was going to start guessing the Cricketer.

The syllabus was the Key Stage 3 National Curriculum taught to all 11-14 year olds. But as it is optional - it depends on the choices your teacher made.

Which is in itself interesting. Whilst it is an important topic, I would still prefer to see the current choice available to History teachers remain. Please spare us from micromanaged curricula.

I did wonder. And I’m gonna chance my arm here and say it was a relation of Phil Edmonds, or perhaps John Emburey. A spinner anyway.
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Re: Churchill
« Reply #222 on: January 26, 2018, 05:01:16 pm »
SP - think you're going to need to give more clues - batsman, bowler, wk or all rounder?! Anyway, I'm guessing Beefy.

You think someone sharing a significant number of genes with him would be fit to teach anyone? It's painful enough listening to his commentary.

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Re: Churchill
« Reply #223 on: January 26, 2018, 05:59:20 pm »
Guys got to say this is one of the best threads ive read in for a long time , a positive of social media is the likes of this thread were different nationalities from all over the world can debate there side amd educate people like myself who have only come in out of curiosity .

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Re: Churchill
« Reply #224 on: January 26, 2018, 06:22:37 pm »
Guys got to say this is one of the best threads ive read in for a long time , a positive of social media is the likes of this thread were different nationalities from all over the world can debate there side amd educate people like myself who have only come in out of curiosity .
YEP...  there’s been considered disagreement .. how refreshing from bickering
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Re: Churchill
« Reply #225 on: January 26, 2018, 07:16:10 pm »
YEP...  there’s been considered disagreement .. how refreshing from bickering

Don't tempt fate.

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Re: Churchill
« Reply #226 on: January 26, 2018, 07:22:38 pm »
I did wonder. And I’m gonna chance my arm here and say it was a relation of Phil Edmonds, or perhaps John Emburey. A spinner anyway.

SP is a Home Counties boy I think. Paul Downton?

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Re: Churchill
« Reply #227 on: January 26, 2018, 08:17:21 pm »
YEP...  there’s been considered disagreement .. how refreshing from bickering

But we can all agree cricket is shite though right?  ;D

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Re: Churchill
« Reply #228 on: January 26, 2018, 08:24:35 pm »
But we can all agree cricket is shite though right?  ;D

Yorky will have you for that!

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Re: Churchill
« Reply #229 on: January 26, 2018, 08:34:11 pm »
Yorky will have you for that!

No. I respect everyone’s opinion. Even a Scotchman’s  :D

But I do feel some pity. If you’ve never felt a cover drive for four coming off the face of the bat you’ve never experienced the second best feeling in the world.
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Re: Churchill
« Reply #230 on: January 26, 2018, 08:58:28 pm »
No. I respect everyone’s opinion. Even a Scotchman’s  :D

But I do feel some pity. If you’ve never felt a cover drive for four coming off the face of the bat you’ve never experienced the second best feeling in the world.
:lmao
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Re: Churchill
« Reply #231 on: January 26, 2018, 09:28:18 pm »
No. I respect everyone’s opinion. Even a Scotchman’s  :D

But I do feel some pity. If you’ve never felt a cover drive for four coming off the face of the bat you’ve never experienced the second best feeling in the world.

The best feeling presumably is when you bowl a batsman through the gate attempting said cover drive.
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Re: Churchillrising to Yorky's bait
« Reply #232 on: January 26, 2018, 09:30:15 pm »
:lmao

In the interest of 1) not derailing the thread into the bickering it was only just being praised for avoiding, and 2) not rising to Yorky's bait, I am choosing not to respond.  ;D

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Re: Churchill
« Reply #233 on: January 26, 2018, 10:56:05 pm »
Did Churchill play cricket?

If so did he cheat?

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Re: Churchill
« Reply #234 on: January 26, 2018, 11:17:44 pm »
Did Churchill play cricket?

If so did he cheat?

Only when England played India

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Re: Churchill
« Reply #235 on: January 27, 2018, 12:32:16 am »
So in the context of whether Ireland should have declared war on Germany, do you think that, given what they knew about the oppression, forfeiture of property and existence of work camps, and given the norms of the time (no one declaring war over the Pogroms), that Ireland were unreasonable to not declare war on Germany?

(Apologies for the persistence, I'm genuinely just curious whether Ireland were wrong to be neutral, all things considered).

At the time just like many countries Ireland, GB included and Sweden all considered neutrality. Sweden did and allowed transport of german troops to Norway, it was the same "daily mail" arguments that the rich are greater and the Nazis proved it was very possible, GB obviously didn't. Ireland had just come from oppression from the brits and then descended into a civil war, living or hunger was more important that world politics. However germans were always jailed while allies "made it" across the border. Fighting for another crusade was also a major issue as with WW1 many Irish men had their families starved into making them sign up, the same or next generation was not so quick to follow the same deadly path.

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Re: Churchill
« Reply #236 on: January 27, 2018, 12:56:10 am »
On the issue of Ireland and neutrality in the 2nd WW, this lesser known arrangement might prove thought provoking for some.
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Re: Churchill
« Reply #237 on: January 27, 2018, 01:07:31 am »
Also Sweden while "neutral" also allowed the design of many allied weapons of war in the underground chambers of FMV in Stockholm - its Swedish so you can easily find it on google maps :)

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Re: Churchill
« Reply #238 on: January 28, 2018, 07:15:36 am »
The majority of my British friends seemed to suggest they were not taught much about the history of the British in Ireland in school. Seems some here were taught it so it's pretty hard to tell what percentage of British students are taught it.  Most of my friends who knew(aside from the few who were taught it) about it said they learned about it in their own time and those who didn't were genuinely taken aback by things like the Irish Famine, as was I by the fact they hadn't heard of it before.

Most of them also don't seem to know much surrounding original English involvement in Ireland and close to nothing about the 800 years between then and eventual Irish independence from Britain either. I do believe it needs to be taught more extensively anyway based on what my friends tell me as it is a pretty large and important part of history with Britain's closest neighbour. These people are open-minded and pretty clued in on other parts of British history so it's a pretty odd one.

In terms of Churchill, I'd agree he was a complete bastard but also that that probably played a part in him being such a challenge for Hitler to overcome. Other countries had folded very quickly to the powerful German war machine. Britain's geographical situation and a very dogged leader leading a very dogged country were something the Nazis hadn't encountered up until that point though. As bad as British rule in Ireland was(and it was awful) Nazi involvement would have been worse. We would not have matched their Aryan race standards and they would have found a way to all but enslave us at best, exterminate us at worse.

It's too easy to look back at that time now and feel Ireland should have been involved in WWII and it is hard to suggest any Irishman at the time should have gone to war on the Allied side in my opinion. There was obviously still a big distrust of Britain in Ireland at the time and rightly so. As someone said previously, centuries and centuries of British rule and atrocities in Ireland wasn't easily forgotten. We were neutral but we knew it was better the devil you know really as our neutrality was pretty questionable in some ways. In terms of how we dealt with crash landed pilots, sharing information with the British and developing a plan to be executed cooperating with Britain in the event of a German invasion of Ireland.

It is sad to see how returning Irishmen who chose to fight were viewed though upon returning. My grandfather used to tell stories about two of his uncles who were at war with each other at the time over whether to go and fight or not. Their mother had been shot dead by the Black and Tans and one uncle regularly argued that while he hated the British the Nazis didn't care about anyone else's grievances and if not stopped soon would steam roll over Ireland like they had most of Europe too. The other argued that while that may be true he couldn't morally justify giving up his life for Churchill and Britain when the force that had killed their mother was the brainchild of Churchill himself, who had back then served as British Secretary of State for war. The first went and served in WWII and they never spoke again. It was an interesting and toxic time in Irish society.

« Last Edit: January 28, 2018, 07:19:16 am by CorKopite »
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Re: Churchill
« Reply #239 on: January 28, 2018, 08:50:23 am »


Since I was taught by CB's here in England back in the 60-'s to early 70's, I was made well aware of certainly the more recent British Irish history, though perhaps not with the message you might expect. I clearly remember aged about 14 when covering the Cromwell period a Brother telling us about Drogheda and him being quite adamant that it was the rules of warfare at that time, but it's only in later life I've become more aware of the pre-Cromwell era. (I've found the post Romano to pre-Norman era of Irish Chieftain raids on the British mainland fascinating. Antagonism on both sides goes back well over a 1400 years, possibly more)

On the issue of Irish neutrality in the 2nd WW, from a practical point I happen to think it was perfectly understandable and shouldn't really be questioned.

While manpower was available, Ireland was an economically poor country with meagre armed forces that would have had to be largely equipped by the Allies to be effective and that would have added to the burden of the Atlantic convoys.

I think a large amount of simmering antagonism towards the Irish Neutrality position was largely around their refusal to allow any use of Irish ports for British convoy escorts especially as the also neutral Portugese seemed to manage to find a way for their Azores to be employed by the Allies.

I suppose if it had have been the US requesting the Irish port facilities, it might have been different, but since the US navy rarely ventured in any strength over the mid point of the Atlantic except briefly for Torch and D Day as naturally it was somewhat preoccupied with the war in the Pacific, and what with the well known anglophobe US Admiral King in charge of Naval matters over in Washington and his determination to ensure the Pacific was a US Navy hegemony, that was unlikely ever to change.

I'm unsure if a request from the Canadian navy, an often overlooked and sadly now almost forgotten but actually substantial and vital force employed in Atlantic convoy protection, was ever made as that may possibly have been viewed more favourably in Ireland than any British one but I imagine the practicalites, the RN being the senior partner on Navy matters this side of the Atlantic, probably meant it was a non starter.

It's been mentioned before, but undoubtedly the single biggest mistake, the one that rankles to this day and I think we can likely all agree in hindsight that it was a seriously unwise move with little obvious merit, was the issuing by the Irish state of official condolences on news of Hitlers death.

By that late stage of the war, May 1945, the sheer scale of the death camps and genocide and the ever growing list of mind boggling criminal atrocities that had been performed by the Nazi regime and vassal states throughout the newly liberated occupied Europe had started to be clearly established and the evidence documented and it beggars belief that De Valera thought it Politically a wise move to ever consider putting his hand to it.

As to the what I would describe as regrettable post war Irish state and society treatment of Irish nationals who had enlisted and fought for the Allies, while I personally think it was churlish and somewhat mean in the light of how things turned out, the 2nd World War in Europe really was a fight against an evil creed, I recognise that it's a problem for Irish society alone to reflect on and come to terms with and not really for others to judge or decide.

To our shame here in Britain, in the post war era and to this day, far too many treated West Indies, West and East African, Indian subcontinent and Chinese Nationals with similar contempt and indifference to their in many cases absolutely invaluable contributions to the fight, not all of which were voluntary, here in Europe but also the Middle east and in the war in the Far East.




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