Author Topic: Catalan Independence  (Read 45303 times)

Offline conman

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Re: Catalan Independence
« Reply #280 on: October 2, 2017, 08:50:16 pm »
I was only there a few months ago, and whilst there I was reading the Spanish football book "Morbo", where the author talks about the fact that it's hard to believe it's only 40 years since Franco. But tensions remain below the surface, people don't forget the divisions and their treatment from before and that that tension is often evident within football rivalries. He pondered whether we would see that tension become something more.

More intimidation by the Spanish on people having a meal with their families.
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Re: Catalan Independence
« Reply #281 on: October 2, 2017, 08:50:41 pm »
That was very impressive.

They knew it would give the Policia Nacional and Guardia Civil more of an excuse to be thugs.
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Offline JHova2427

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Re: Catalan Independence
« Reply #282 on: October 2, 2017, 08:52:39 pm »
They knew it would give the Policia Nacional and Guardia Civil more of an excuse to be thugs.

Impressive to be so level headed in the midst of it all.  I was getting fired up watching women getting their hair yanked and legs pummeled, but I suppose I am just behind a keyboard.

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Re: Catalan Independence
« Reply #283 on: October 2, 2017, 08:59:06 pm »
I was only there a few months ago, and whilst there I was reading the Spanish football book "Morbo", where the author talks about the fact that it's hard to believe it's only 40 years since Franco. But tensions remain below the surface, people don't forget the divisions and their treatment from before and that that tension is often evident within football rivalries. He pondered whether we would see that tension become something more.

More intimidation by the Spanish on people having a meal with their families.
https://www.facebook.com/josh.clarke.123276/posts/10213402454688045

And still people alive from the actual civil war, so with plenty of people 45 and upwards will have memories of the repression or the war (or both), it's not exactly easy to forget.

Pact of forgetting was agreed after the death of Franco, which when you consider most of the memorials for the war still standing are for the right, not easy for the left to forgive.



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Offline WhereAngelsPlay

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Re: Catalan Independence
« Reply #284 on: October 2, 2017, 08:59:20 pm »
Impressive to be so level headed in the midst of it all.  I was getting fired up watching women getting their hair yanked and legs pummeled, but I suppose I am just behind a keyboard.

Incredible ammount of self control.

They were nothing but a gang of c*nts,they had no fear of repercussions as could be seen when they also decided to get stuck into the Firemen and women,something that they obviously did because those same fire people staged their own rooftop protest on Friday.
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Re: Catalan Independence
« Reply #285 on: October 2, 2017, 09:00:03 pm »
Impressive to be so level headed in the midst of it all.  I was getting fired up watching women getting their hair yanked and legs pummeled, but I suppose I am just behind a keyboard.

If it had been the weekend before i might have got involved haha.

A Basque friend went on a protest on the Sunday previous, his Missus is Catalan.
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Re: Catalan Independence
« Reply #286 on: October 2, 2017, 09:01:42 pm »
Another interesting article to look at, though not in relation to Catalunya as such is the 1977 Atocha Massacre, when right wing gunmen murdered left wing lawyers on Calle Atocha in Madrid. Massive protest after. There is a memorial in the street and a plaque a little further down Atocha on the building it took place.
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Offline conman

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Re: Catalan Independence
« Reply #287 on: October 2, 2017, 09:13:04 pm »
Just took this snippet from reddit from a local who's talking about what happened yesterday, for a little further context.

How are your thoughts on the national police after the way they acted to the voters yesterday?

Horrible, but I will take the opportunity to explain something.

Some years ago I was protesting against the increase of university prices in Barcelona and the "mossos de esquadra" (catalonian police force) charged at us unprovoked and injured a lot of people.

By this im not taking heat off the national police actions, they had absolutely no place in a first world country but I dont like the narrative of "look at these bad spanish dudes" when some years ago I was being beaten by Catalonian policemen.
We cant forget that they were sent with aggression in mind, the Spanish government (Partido Popular, the remains of the franco party, but this is a discussion for another day) knew they would strike people, with this I want to say, those policement were given orders, and they abide them

Edit: Link https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/73rvne/iama_catalonian_citizen_who_went_to_vote/


So it's not just a Castilian thing.

Still though, it doesn't excuse their scumbag actions yesterday.
« Last Edit: October 2, 2017, 09:16:14 pm by conman »

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Re: Catalan Independence
« Reply #288 on: October 2, 2017, 09:22:15 pm »
Mossos when it become the local police force was made up of previous Policia Nacional officers i believe, so basically part of the same force kicking shit out of everyone yesterday.

A number of years ago, a lot of locals told me they wanted their own force, then when they got them they said there as shit as the others were. I think that has changed even in just the last few months with whet they did after the August terrorist attack.
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Offline alonsoisared

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Re: Catalan Independence
« Reply #289 on: October 2, 2017, 09:32:48 pm »
There a lot of complete bollocks been posted on here.

Can i suggest a few read up on the following.

1714 and the Siege of Barcelona

Guardia Civil (not exactly civil - see Spanish civil war and the like)

That's yer starter for 10...
And still people alive from the actual civil war, so with plenty of people 45 and upwards will have memories of the repression or the war (or both), it's not exactly easy to forget.

Pact of forgetting was agreed after the death of Franco, which when you consider most of the memorials for the war still standing are for the right, not easy for the left to forgive.

A couple of points Jon (as long as whereangelsplay doesn't mind me posting again in the thread I took the time to create) as it's a subject that interests me a lot. I'm by no means an expert on it and my mind isn't closed to contrary opinions.

Firstly, it always seems to go back a long way. The siege of Barcelona in 1714 surely doesn't have much relevance today? Spain is obviously an extremely different place to what it was 300 years ago. Surely an attempt to gain independence in the year 2017 should have more substance than things that happened so long ago?

On the Civil War, of course there are still open wounds there and as you've rightly pointed out there are many people in Spain who lived to see the repression under Franco. But then as articles like this one https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/sep/30/red-belt-catalonia-labour-movement-referendum point out, there is also a lot of distrust from those around at that time of the current Independence movement.

While Rajoy is obviously a total twat and plays into the hands of those wanting independence, he only scraped into power after a second election and that was just at the expense of various left wing and socialist parties. Spain has had many years of Socialist/left wing parties since the transformation to democracy. Unlike most of Europe, Spain hasn't seen any growing far right parties. The far right movements seem to be in the form of this nationalism coming from both sides. It suits the romantic independence argument to suggest that Spain is a right wing country that still hangs on to the ghosts of Franco, while Catalunya is the socialist paradise yearning to be free but it just isn't true. Puigdemont is a Conservative after all. So while I agree that the left should be aggrieved at the fact that so many of the memorials from the war are to those on the right, the left in this case isn't necessarily Barcelona/Catalunya and the right Madrid/the rest of Spain. 

Offline MOZ

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Re: Catalan Independence
« Reply #290 on: October 2, 2017, 09:35:57 pm »
Just took this snippet from reddit from a local who's talking about what happened yesterday, for a little further context.

How are your thoughts on the national police after the way they acted to the voters yesterday?

Horrible, but I will take the opportunity to explain something.

Some years ago I was protesting against the increase of university prices in Barcelona and the "mossos de esquadra" (catalonian police force) charged at us unprovoked and injured a lot of people.

By this im not taking heat off the national police actions, they had absolutely no place in a first world country but I dont like the narrative of "look at these bad spanish dudes" when some years ago I was being beaten by Catalonian policemen.
We cant forget that they were sent with aggression in mind, the Spanish government (Partido Popular, the remains of the franco party, but this is a discussion for another day) knew they would strike people, with this I want to say, those policement were given orders, and they abide them

Edit: Link https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/73rvne/iama_catalonian_citizen_who_went_to_vote/


So it's not just a Castilian thing.

Still though, it doesn't excuse their scumbag actions yesterday.


Mossos have a terrible reputation. They have history for kicking the shit out of (and in some cases killing) anyone who happened to get on their wrong side - women, children, whatever.

A woman lost her eye a few years back after they shot her with a rubber bullet while striking peacefully and a famous Spanish actor died in custody after they arrested him for a minor offence.

They have cleaned uo their act a bit but you still don't want to mess with them.
« Last Edit: October 2, 2017, 09:38:45 pm by MOZ »

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Re: Catalan Independence
« Reply #291 on: October 2, 2017, 09:48:02 pm »
A couple of points Jon (as long as whereangelsplay doesn't mind me posting again in the thread I took the time to create) as it's a subject that interests me a lot. I'm by no means an expert on it and my mind isn't closed to contrary opinions.

Firstly, it always seems to go back a long way. The siege of Barcelona in 1714 surely doesn't have much relevance today? Spain is obviously an extremely different place to what it was 300 years ago. Surely an attempt to gain independence in the year 2017 should have more substance than things that happened so long ago?

On the Civil War, of course there are still open wounds there and as you've rightly pointed out there are many people in Spain who lived to see the repression under Franco. But then as articles like this one https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/sep/30/red-belt-catalonia-labour-movement-referendum point out, there is also a lot of distrust from those around at that time of the current Independence movement.

While Rajoy is obviously a total twat and plays into the hands of those wanting independence, he only scraped into power after a second election and that was just at the expense of various left wing and socialist parties. Spain has had many years of Socialist/left wing parties since the transformation to democracy. Unlike most of Europe, Spain hasn't seen any growing far right parties. The far right movements seem to be in the form of this nationalism coming from both sides. It suits the romantic independence argument to suggest that Spain is a right wing country that still hangs on to the ghosts of Franco, while Catalunya is the socialist paradise yearning to be free but it just isn't true. Puigdemont is a Conservative after all. So while I agree that the left should be aggrieved at the fact that so many of the memorials from the war are to those on the right, the left in this case isn't necessarily Barcelona/Catalunya and the right Madrid/the rest of Spain. 

I'm also no expert. You also have Setmana Tragica from 1909, and i'm reasonably sure (but not 100%) that they had some of their devolved rights under their additional autonomy removed around 2011 which is basically where this might have all come to the forefront.

And yes Puigdemont is on the right, but a lot of the current thrust has come from the left independence parties they are in coalition with, for instance the CUP, they only contested Catalan government elections from 2012, before that just municipal elections. The CUP basically forced Artur Mas out which led to Puigdemont taking over.

And there is corruption all over the place, not just in the PP in Spanish Government but also in Catalunya. Power and corruption hand in hand in any government.
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Offline conman

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Re: Catalan Independence
« Reply #292 on: October 2, 2017, 09:55:01 pm »
I'm also no expert. You also have Setmana Tragica from 1909, and i'm reasonably sure (but not 100%) that they had some of their devolved rights under their additional autonomy removed around 2011 which is basically where this might have all come to the forefront.

And yes Puigdemont is on the right, but a lot of the current thrust has come from the left independence parties they are in coalition with, for instance the CUP, they only contested Catalan government elections from 2012, before that just municipal elections. The CUP basically forced Artur Mas out which led to Puigdemont taking over.

And there is corruption all over the place, not just in the PP in Spanish Government but also in Catalunya. Power and corruption hand in hand in any government.
The estatut ?

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Re: Catalan Independence
« Reply #293 on: October 2, 2017, 09:56:41 pm »
These kind of threads are really good. Really informative stuff.

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Re: Catalan Independence
« Reply #294 on: October 2, 2017, 09:59:05 pm »
The estatut ?

Not sure mate and can only assume so, just know something allegedly was taken away from their local control a few years back around the time they started massive rallies for Independence.
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Offline conman

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Re: Catalan Independence
« Reply #295 on: October 2, 2017, 10:07:33 pm »
Not sure mate and can only assume so, just know something allegedly was taken away from their local control a few years back around the time they started massive rallies for Independence.
I'm just learning these past few days, but that reddit link i posted above is rather informative and balanced. He says this:

Some have historical claims, the crown of Aragon (wich Catalonia was a part of) and Castilia (former Spain as we usually name it) were united back in 1469 and since then cultural differences always had a part on nationalistic claims.

More recently since the instauration of the parlamentary monarchy (after franco) the spanish territory was split into "comunidades autonomas) which everyone of them has different autonomic competences, Basque Country had more economic privileges than Catalonia and that inspired some turmoil within the population

Back in 2006 the Spain government destroyed "the estatut" wich was a sort of declaration of competences by the Generalitat, that was a big mistake since "the estatut" didnt infringe any known law and even was similar as other bills in vigor by other "comunidades autonomas"
Years of political immobility by central government and impoverishment of the general population made that independentist and nationalist parties gain support within the "non-political people"


As for me I am not independentist but I am for democracy, and the measures PP (governing party) took in Catalonia are unacceptable.


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Re: Catalan Independence
« Reply #296 on: October 2, 2017, 10:13:05 pm »
The Statute of Autonomy of Catalonia (Catalan: Estatut d’Autonomia de Catalunya) provides Catalonia's basic institutional regulations under the Spanish Constitution of 1978. It defines the rights and obligations of the citizens of Catalonia, the political institutions of the Catalan region, their competences and relations with the rest of Spain, and the financing of the Government of Catalonia.[1]

This Law was approved by referendum on 18 June 2006 and supplanted the Statute of Sau, which dated from 1979. Four years later, on June 28 of 2010, the Constitutional Court of Spain assessed the constitutionality of several articles of the Law,[2] rewriting 14 of them and dictating the interpretation for 27 more. That led to a massive demonstration in Barcelona of more than a million people[3][4] under the slogan in Catalan Som una nació. Nosaltres decidim (in English, "We are a nation. We decide").

Looks like the original Estutat (Sau) was overwritten by the new one, then the last bit in 2010, so that must be the reason for the massive upsurge.

I've been getting into it a lot lately, mainly due to learning a lot about the civil war over the last half a dozen years.
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Re: Catalan Independence
« Reply #297 on: October 2, 2017, 10:15:18 pm »
I also think the Catalan government (with their partners) have fucked this up, along with the central government. Doesn't justify the violence from the Policia Nacional or the Guardia Civil (i knew the Guardia would cause massive problems) but both parties involved have made a complete mess of it.
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Offline MOZ

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Re: Catalan Independence
« Reply #298 on: October 2, 2017, 10:21:37 pm »
A couple of points Jon (as long as whereangelsplay doesn't mind me posting again in the thread I took the time to create) as it's a subject that interests me a lot. I'm by no means an expert on it and my mind isn't closed to contrary opinions.

Firstly, it always seems to go back a long way. The siege of Barcelona in 1714 surely doesn't have much relevance today? Spain is obviously an extremely different place to what it was 300 years ago. Surely an attempt to gain independence in the year 2017 should have more substance than things that happened so long ago?

On the Civil War, of course there are still open wounds there and as you've rightly pointed out there are many people in Spain who lived to see the repression under Franco. But then as articles like this one https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/sep/30/red-belt-catalonia-labour-movement-referendum point out, there is also a lot of distrust from those around at that time of the current Independence movement.

While Rajoy is obviously a total twat and plays into the hands of those wanting independence, he only scraped into power after a second election and that was just at the expense of various left wing and socialist parties. Spain has had many years of Socialist/left wing parties since the transformation to democracy. Unlike most of Europe, Spain hasn't seen any growing far right parties. The far right movements seem to be in the form of this nationalism coming from both sides. It suits the romantic independence argument to suggest that Spain is a right wing country that still hangs on to the ghosts of Franco, while Catalunya is the socialist paradise yearning to be free but it just isn't true. Puigdemont is a Conservative after all. So while I agree that the left should be aggrieved at the fact that so many of the memorials from the war are to those on the right, the left in this case isn't necessarily Barcelona/Catalunya and the right Madrid/the rest of Spain. 

Spain is still predominantly socialist at heart, it was before Franco and it has been after. For example, since the new constitution, here in Andalucia there has always been a Socialist government and prior to Franco it was a hot bed for Socialist, Communist and Anarchist workers/peasant groups.

The issue is that the PP were essentially founded from the remnants of the the Franco government and they will always carry that with them. To coin a phrase, not everyone who votes for them is a Francoist but every Francoist votes for them.

Where I live in the north of the Granada province, there are many people with links to Catalonia - through displacement due to work or through the many Andalucians who went there to fight (or were imprisoned there) during the war. For them, there is a feeling of betrayal that when Catalonia was at its lowest point, they stood shoulder to shoulder with them but now the region is doing well, they want to turn their backs on Spain at a time when stability is desparately needed.

The general consensus here (and I am talking word on the streets, in the bars, amongst friends etc.) is that while Rajoy is obviously utterly useless, Puigdemont, Mas and their ilk are self-serving shit-stirrers who have purposefully inflammed an independence debate that prior to 2006 had relatively little momentum amongst the Catalan people (let's remember, the region had never had a pro-independence majority until 2012). And everyone here is in agreement that the whole thing has been handled terribly (on both sides).

Obviously this only represents one persepctive of the debate, I'm sure other Spanish dwellers may chip in.
« Last Edit: October 2, 2017, 10:26:09 pm by MOZ »

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Re: Catalan Independence
« Reply #299 on: October 2, 2017, 10:26:20 pm »
Trying to figure out what's gone on in Calella in Catalunya. Think the Guardia Civil who were staying in Hotels there have been run out of town, i know they were asked to leave after they attacked random people in the streets last night.
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Re: Catalan Independence
« Reply #300 on: October 2, 2017, 10:42:06 pm »
Trying to figure out what's gone on in Calella in Catalunya. Think the Guardia Civil who were staying in Hotels there have been run out of town, i know they were asked to leave after they attacked random people in the streets last night.

They've turned up in Pineda del Mar, and now the locals are protesting outside their new hotel...
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Re: Catalan Independence
« Reply #301 on: October 3, 2017, 07:40:20 am »
Spain is still predominantly socialist at heart, it was before Franco and it has been after. For example, since the new constitution, here in Andalucia there has always been a Socialist government and prior to Franco it was a hot bed for Socialist, Communist and Anarchist workers/peasant groups.

The issue is that the PP were essentially founded from the remnants of the the Franco government and they will always carry that with them. To coin a phrase, not everyone who votes for them is a Francoist but every Francoist votes for them.

Where I live in the north of the Granada province, there are many people with links to Catalonia - through displacement due to work or through the many Andalucians who went there to fight (or were imprisoned there) during the war. For them, there is a feeling of betrayal that when Catalonia was at its lowest point, they stood shoulder to shoulder with them but now the region is doing well, they want to turn their backs on Spain at a time when stability is desparately needed.

The general consensus here (and I am talking word on the streets, in the bars, amongst friends etc.) is that while Rajoy is obviously utterly useless, Puigdemont, Mas and their ilk are self-serving shit-stirrers who have purposefully inflammed an independence debate that prior to 2006 had relatively little momentum amongst the Catalan people (let's remember, the region had never had a pro-independence majority until 2012). And everyone here is in agreement that the whole thing has been handled terribly (on both sides).

Obviously this only represents one persepctive of the debate, I'm sure other Spanish dwellers may chip in.
really interesting post mate, cheers.

Spain just seems to do itself no favours. I thought that theyd changed all of the franco era street names in Madrid, but I was walking along Saturday and found myself on Paseo del General Mola. I looked it up yesterday and saw its due to change, but why has it taken so long?!

The consensus you share seems very similar to the ones ive encountered here, from Madrid but also some who've relocated here from other parts of the country.

Offline MOZ

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Re: Catalan Independence
« Reply #302 on: October 3, 2017, 09:05:02 am »
really interesting post mate, cheers.

Spain just seems to do itself no favours. I thought that theyd changed all of the franco era street names in Madrid, but I was walking along Saturday and found myself on Paseo del General Mola. I looked it up yesterday and saw its due to change, but why has it taken so long?!

The consensus you share seems very similar to the ones ive encountered here, from Madrid but also some who've relocated here from other parts of the country.

There are still those who want to retain the street names - so there is some opposition there.

However, as you might know, the current Mayor of Madrid (Manuela Carmena) is a former communist party member who represents a leftist coalition (which includes Podemos), so the project to remove Francoist symbols has been speeded up.

She also founded the workers rights legal department where the Massacre of Atocha took place in 1977 (mentioned by Jon earlier). So, she is very much against anything related to the Nationalist factions.
 

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Re: Catalan Independence
« Reply #303 on: October 3, 2017, 10:10:18 am »
50 roads into Catalonia have been blocked by separatists today.



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Re: Catalan Independence
« Reply #304 on: October 3, 2017, 07:54:43 pm »
Seen footage of one kickoff, no idea why but a few with Spanish and Catalan flags ignored the kickoff, so assume it's just high tensions kicking off, which will happen.
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Re: Catalan Independence
« Reply #305 on: October 3, 2017, 08:28:23 pm »
King of Spain has just spoken.

No condemnation of the Policia and Guardia Civil violence. No mention of dialogue.

Still Franco's Monarchy.

Viva la Republica!
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Offline JHova2427

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Re: Catalan Independence
« Reply #306 on: October 3, 2017, 08:54:56 pm »
Apparently Pique voted in the referendum.  I wonder how this will affect the Spanish squad in the build up to the world cup. 

I've always thought they did a great job of getting the Madrid and Barcelona players to coalesce over the last few years.  Partially just due to the football rivalry let alone the political parts.

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Re: Catalan Independence
« Reply #307 on: October 3, 2017, 09:20:46 pm »
He got booed and abused by the fans yesterday at training.

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Re: Catalan Independence
« Reply #308 on: October 3, 2017, 09:47:26 pm »
https://twitter.com/BBCBreaking

Quote
Catalonia will declare independence from Spain in a matter of days, region's leader Carles Puigdemont tells the BBC

Offline MOZ

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Re: Catalan Independence
« Reply #309 on: October 3, 2017, 09:48:55 pm »

Still Franco's Monarchy.


Bit harsh, his father pulled the Franco regime apart, installed democracy and helped to prevent another Francoist coup a few years later.

And Felipe himself was the first monarch in the world to appear on the cover of a gay magazine.

Call him out for not codemning the violence, but the Franco/fascist digs shouldn't be bandied about so freely.

I say that as someone who supports a republic in Spain.

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Re: Catalan Independence
« Reply #310 on: October 3, 2017, 09:52:08 pm »
https://twitter.com/BBCBreaking

It's all a bit bonkers & haphazard.

Is the Catalunya president some sort of Farrage figure?
They would be fucked as an independent country

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Re: Catalan Independence
« Reply #311 on: October 3, 2017, 10:01:54 pm »
It's all a bit bonkers & haphazard.

Is the Catalunya president some sort of Farrage figure?
They would be fucked as an independent country

Not as fucked as Spain would be if they lost Catalunya.

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Re: Catalan Independence
« Reply #312 on: October 3, 2017, 10:08:16 pm »
Not as fucked as Spain would be if they lost Catalunya.

Both are dependent on each other, but Spain would retain it's position within the EU, keep the free movement of people & access to the common market. They would of course lose 20% of its GDP and 16% of its population. Though would they have to burden the debt on their own? probably. Would it cause Galacia and the Basque region to consider separation? probably, possibly.

Catalunya almost certainly won't get a look in to the EU, So they will lose the free movement of people, access to the common market and all other perks that that brings, including a massive reduction in tourism & shipping.
They would also lose their largest trading partner, in Spain.
They have no army to speak of, so they would need to build one and finance one (if they get out in the first place)

It's a no win situation for both of them.

I can only hope that this entire fiasco, was instigated as a tool to increase their power within Spain and self government. If their actual intention is independence, i think they are all fucked.

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Re: Catalan Independence
« Reply #313 on: October 3, 2017, 10:15:36 pm »


Can't disagree with Yanis here.

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Re: Catalan Independence
« Reply #314 on: October 3, 2017, 10:25:01 pm »
Bit harsh, his father pulled the Franco regime apart, installed democracy and helped to prevent another Francoist coup a few years later.

And Felipe himself was the first monarch in the world to appear on the cover of a gay magazine.

Call him out for not codemning the violence, but the Franco/fascist digs shouldn't be bandied about so freely.

I say that as someone who supports a republic in Spain.

He helped the transition, he didn't pull it apart, yep he refused to accept the coup. Can't argue with that, but if his son didn't back Rajoy with his rhetoric, he'd be err out of a job in a republic...
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Offline MOZ

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Re: Catalan Independence
« Reply #315 on: October 3, 2017, 10:26:24 pm »
It's all a bit bonkers & haphazard.

Is the Catalunya president some sort of Farrage figure?
They would be fucked as an independent country

He is an ex-media man and now a self-serving politician who promised to deliver independence (from Spain and the EU) within 18 months of doing a deal to replace Artur Mas.

He knows it is practically impossible (just look at Brexit) and there is much disharmony behind the scenes amongst the three parties involved in the deal that put him in place.

But he will try not to take the wrap if it fails (and the Spanish government have played right into his hands there) and there are suggestions that his aim now is to get Rajoy to invoke article 155 of the consitution with an illegal declaration of independence.

Meanwhile, he has barely spared a thought for half of the 7 or 8 million or so Catalans who do not want independence and are now afraid to speak out.

Apart from that, he spends most of his life on twitter.
« Last Edit: October 4, 2017, 08:27:04 am by MOZ »

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Re: Catalan Independence
« Reply #316 on: October 3, 2017, 10:28:12 pm »
He is an ex-media man and now a self-serving politician who promised to deliver independence (from Spain and the EU) within 18 months of doing a deal to replace Artur Mas.

He knows it is practically impossible (just look at Brexit) and there is much disharmony behind the scenes amongst the three parties involved in the deal that put him in place.

But he will try not to take the wrap if it fails (and the Spanish government have played right into his hands there) and there are suggestions that his aim now is to get Rajoy to invoke article 155 of the consitution with an illegal declaration of independence.

Meanwhile, he has barely spared a thought for the 7 or 8 million or so Catalans who do not want independence and are now afraid to speak out.

Apart from that, he spends most of his life on twitter.

There's only about 7m Catalans in total, 2m voted yes so that's 5m which includes kids...
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Re: Catalan Independence
« Reply #317 on: October 3, 2017, 10:30:11 pm »
Thanks for the reply Moz.

He must either be a pig headed dick, bent on getting his own way or playing a political masterstroke in an attempt to earn Catalunya the status that he (They) feels they deserve within Spain.

Offline MOZ

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Re: Catalan Independence
« Reply #318 on: October 3, 2017, 10:33:32 pm »
He helped the transition, he didn't pull it apart, yep he refused to accept the coup. Can't argue with that, but if his son didn't back Rajoy with his rhetoric, he'd be err out of a job in a republic...

He pulled it apart - he didn't help, he instigated the reforms and oversaw the transition. It could not have happened without him.

Not sure what you mean by the second bit. He could have condemned the violence while also defending the constitution but he choose not to and he should be open to criticism for that. Fair game.

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Re: Catalan Independence
« Reply #319 on: October 3, 2017, 10:36:12 pm »
There's only about 7m Catalans in total, 2m voted yes so that's 5m which includes kids...

I'm sure you are right, might of got the numbers wrong off the top of my head, but roughly half of them any way.