Topic: VAR! Video Assistant Referee & Shite Referees in General

[Zend...en the clowns]

Don't know what? That a hand in an unnatural position that blocks the ball on the way to goal is a penalty?

If he's running around with both feet on the floor then yes, unnatural position. Not a chance you can deem that unnatural with him having propelled himself into a jump.

[smicer07]

If he's running around with both feet on the floor then yes, unnatural position. Not a chance you can deem that unnatural with him having propelled himself into a jump.

Well the referee, who has loads of experience, watching on a TV screen, disagrees with you.

[North Red]

Don't know what? That a hand in an unnatural position that blocks the ball on the way to goal is a penalty?

It was not unnatural. That's my point. And it was ball to hand.

[smicer07]

It was not unnatural. That's my point. And it was ball to hand.

"Ball to hand" doesn't exist.

[North Red]

Well the referee, who has loads of experience, watching on a TV screen, disagrees with you.

so the ref is always right? Strange argument.

[smicer07]

so the ref is always right? Strange argument.

He's more likely to be correct with instruction from FIFA, a TV screen and some common sense.

[CraigDS]

3 refs, not just one.

[North Red]

He's more likely to be correct with instruction from FIFA, a TV screen and some common sense.

doesn't mean he's correct still.

[JovaJova]

Have not seen that. I just hate it. You never not what's going to happen. Can you celebrate a goal or not.. And all these penalties are a shit addition to the game

There is almost a VAR penalty every game now. I really hate it.

That one today was a complete joke. The reality is any slight foul slowed down on a replay is going to be awarded as a penalty. I fear it’s going to completely ruin the knockout games. Farcically soft goals awarded by VAR may well decide who the winner is.

[oldfordie]

This handball penalty rule really needs to be defined more than deliberately handling the ball. stretching your arms out seems to be one of the things refs look for now, you stretch your arms out and you have a chance of blocking the ball even if the incident only takes a split second and therefore not deliberate. many players now keep their arms down when jumping, many put their arms behind their backs when trying to block a shot. just change the rule and no player will jump with their arms outstretched.

[PhaseOfPlay]

"Ball to hand" doesn't exist.

You might want to check your LOTG again

HANDLING THE BALL

Handling the ball involves a deliberate act of a player making contact with the ball with the hand or arm.

The following must be considered:

    the movement of the hand towards the ball (not the ball towards the hand)
    the distance between the opponent and the ball (unexpected ball)
    the position of the hand does not necessarily mean that there is an offence
    touching the ball with an object held in the hand (clothing, shinguard, etc.) is an offence
    hitting the ball with a thrown object (boot, shinguard, etc.) is an offence

The goalkeeper has the same restrictions on handling the ball as any other player outside the penalty area. Inside their penalty area, the goalkeeper cannot be guilty of a handling offence incurring a direct free kick or any related sanction but can be guilty of handling offences that incur an indirect free kick.

[PhaseOfPlay]

Don't know what? That a hand in an unnatural position that blocks the ball on the way to goal is a penalty?

the position of the hand does not necessarily mean that there is an offence

[rob1966]

This handball penalty rule really needs to be defined more than deliberately handling the ball. stretching your arms out seems to be one of the things refs look for now, you stretch your arms out and you have a chance of blocking the ball even if the incident only takes a split second and therefore not deliberate. many players now keep their arms down when jumping, many put their arms behind their backs when trying to block a shot. just change the rule and no player will jump with their arms outstretched.

It is already in the laws, the position of the hand doesn't always mean it is an offence, the thing the referee needs to consider is the movement of the hand towards the ball, not the ball to the hand and the also distances involved.

[classycarra]

If the decisions to award the penalties are correct, how are they shit additions?

Well as you yourself said, the French one against Australia wasn't.

And the handball today also wasn't correct. The ref saw it in real time and decided against giving it. Then gave it based on a replay.

VAR is supposed to be used to overturn clear decisions. How did the replay make it clear it's deliberate. It's anything but. System failed again.

There is almost a VAR penalty every game now. I really hate it.

That one today was a complete joke. The reality is any slight foul slowed down on a replay is going to be awarded as a penalty. I fear it’s going to completely ruin the knockout games. Farcically soft goals awarded by VAR may well decide who the winner is.

Yep. Basic understanding of cognitive biases makes it obvious that in its current guise it's just going to be used to affirm a lot of bullshit penalties. It isn't improving the way fouls in the box are being interpreted in the slightest

[Barneylfc∗]

Well as you yourself said, the French one against Australia wasn't.

And the handball today also wasn't correct. The ref saw it in real time and decided against giving it. Then gave it based on a replay.

VAR is supposed to be used to overturn clear decisions. How did the replay make it clear it's deliberate. It's anything but. System failed again.

That's the only one I disagree with. I haven't seen today's one so can't comment. So basically, from what I have seen, it has worked very well so far.

Just seen it. I'd want that for Liverpool 100 times out of 100.

[classycarra]

You might want to check your LOTG again

Haha. Given Smicer's apparent decades of refereeing experience it just goes to show that adding more referees decisions to the referee on the pitch doesn't appear to improve things, including basic understanding of handballs, nor make for consistent decisions.

[rob1966]

Just seen the penalty decision for the first time on ITV and I disagree with the pundits, that is not harsh, its a penalty. You can see by the way he has raised his arm before jumping that he was trying to block the ball - he might have changed his mind after he started his jump, but was his initial intent. The only people I've seen put their hand in that position before jumping is a ballet dancer.

[CraigDS]

Haha. Given Smicer's apparent decades of refereeing experience it just goes to show that adding more referees decisions to the referee on the pitch doesn't appear to improve things, including basic understanding of handballs, nor make for consistent decisions.

You will never get consistent decisions, because the decision making process involves humans. I'm not sure you can argue it doesn't improve things though, as overall the correct decisions have been getting made a lot more than they have not.

[oldfordie]

It is already in the laws, the position of the hand doesn't always mean it is an offence, the thing the referee needs to consider is the movement of the hand towards the ball, not the ball to the hand and the also distances involved.

Yeah it is in the rules, that's not really much of a help for us when making a judgement though.  I think refs are definitely giving pens even though the player didn't deliberately mean to touch the ball. if the player jumps up with his arms raised and the ball hits his his arm or hand at close range then theres a good chance a pen will be awarded even if he made no attempt to touch the ball. the player positioned his arm that could  result in contact with the ball seems to be what refs look for, they should just write into the rules to make the rule more clearer.

[CraigDS]

VAR quickly used to correct a yellow card given to wrong player.

[4pool]

VAR is working to a degree in the World Cup.

However, anyone expecting the same for the Premier League is wishfull thinking. Imho.

The differences between application are striking.

At the World Cup you have 4 additional Refs in a booth from different Confederations. A committee of Refs.

In the Premier League you'll have Kevin Friend in the Booth with Lee Mason on the pitch.

When you have the head, Mike Riley, of the PGMOL claiming VAR would only change about 2% of decisions...there's your answer.

Mike Riley beleives his crew don't miss calls. The same crew who work and train together. Go to meetings together. See each other face to face on a weekly basis. For a Booth Ref to tell a pitch Refs, Mate you've got that one wrong, isn't going to happen as frequently as what goes on at the World Cup. They will protect their own. Which is why Clear and Obvious will only be about 2% of the time in the PL.


Now if Mike Riley and the PGMOL would agree to have someone independant in the VAR booth from another country, well maybe VAR would change more than 2% of the calls. Mike Riley probably voted Brexit...so no chance of independant VAR's..





Something I proposed earlier is how I would solve the Referee situation.

Take the top 5 leagues : England, Spain, France, Germany , and Italy.

Take the top Refs from that League and rotate them every season.

So the English Refs would do..Germany one season, then Spain one season, then France one season, then Italy one season..and then rotate back to Germany...etc.

Obviously the other Refs rotate as well.

You never Ref your home league for a season. Anti Brexit proposal..:p

This way there is no club bias in a Refs decision. No ego to protect a League. It makes becoming a Ref in the top 5 league means more Euro experience. Gives them more experience at different styles of play. Makes them better Refs.

If a ref from England doesn't want to work that way, demote him/her back to the Championship and promote another ref.

[farawayred]

1. Mike Riley never made a wrong call, he was always right.
2. If you doubt that Mike Riley was always right, see rule #1.
3. Mike Riley's crew of Refs follow rule #1 to the letter. Therefore, they are always right.

There you have it...

Anyway, I wanted to ask a VAR question on the Croatia - Argentina game. Near the end of the game a Rakitic (?) was founed and on the floor and Otamendi kiucked the ball at his head after the game was stopped (it's when the game boiled off a bit). This was a red card offense - endangering the health of an opponent. The Ref showed a yellow card. If VAR interfered, could they have changed the card? Keep in mind that this s not one of the four instances when VAR is given the mandate to interfere - goals, penalties, red cards, mistaken identities. We've seen all but red cards actions, and the incident in question was a yellow.

[WillG.LFC]

Don't think var can be used for yellow cards in the world cup (other than correcting incorrectly booked players like we saw yesterday). Its only for second yellows/reds. Otherwise you would have to review potentially every yellow card with a 30 second stoppage

They need to remove the rule where yellow card offenses can't be corrected after matches for incidents like that when a yellow probably was too lenient.

[redtel]

VAR is working to a degree in the World Cup.

However, anyone expecting the same for the Premier League is wishfull thinking. Imho.

The differences between application are striking.

At the World Cup you have 4 additional Refs in a booth from different Confederations. A committee of Refs.

In the Premier League you'll have Kevin Friend in the Booth with Lee Mason on the pitch.

When you have the head, Mike Riley, of the PGMOL claiming VAR would only change about 2% of decisions...there's your answer.

Mike Riley beleives his crew don't miss calls. The same crew who work and train together. Go to meetings together. See each other face to face on a weekly basis. For a Booth Ref to tell a pitch Refs, Mate you've got that one wrong, isn't going to happen as frequently as what goes on at the World Cup. They will protect their own. Which is why Clear and Obvious will only be about 2% of the time in the PL.


Now if Mike Riley and the PGMOL would agree to have someone independant in the VAR booth from another country, well maybe VAR would change more than 2% of the calls. Mike Riley probably voted Brexit...so no chance of independant VAR's..





Something I proposed earlier is how I would solve the Referee situation.

Take the top 5 leagues : England, Spain, France, Germany , and Italy.

Take the top Refs from that League and rotate them every season.

So the English Refs would do..Germany one season, then Spain one season, then France one season, then Italy one season..and then rotate back to Germany...etc.

Obviously the other Refs rotate as well.

You never Ref your home league for a season. Anti Brexit proposal..:p

This way there is no club bias in a Refs decision. No ego to protect a League. It makes becoming a Ref in the top 5 league means more Euro experience. Gives them more experience at different styles of play. Makes them better Refs.

If a ref from England doesn't want to work that way, demote him/her back to the Championship and promote another ref.

I share your concerns about how VAR will operate in the PL. However it's good to see an open minded view of where we all are with the current operation of VAR at the WC.

The idea of reffing abroad is a good one and the language barrier doesn't seem to affect refs in the WC or CL as the laws are the same everywhere. Or should be! It may even stop all the player chatting into the refs ear a la Rooney if he doesn't speak English.

The 2% incorrect calls statistic will no doubt be available at the end of the WC in July and could well be in this ballpark area. Should be interesting.

[CraigDS]

Don’t get the foreign refs suggestion, it doesn’t solve the problem he identifies where refs won’t overule another ref for fear of having to look them in the eye (there is no evidence for this at all, in fact there is plenty of counter evidence as has been pointed out to him, but oh well). Unless he’s suggesting only English refs can’t look another English ref in the eye, which would be a bizarre trait.

The answer is to attract the best refs here, be them English, European or Martian.

[LovelyCushionedHeader]

Don’t get the foreign refs suggestion, it doesn’t solve the problem he identifies where refs won’t overule another ref for fear of having to look them in the eye (there is no evidence for this at all, in fact there is plenty of counter evidence as has been pointed out to him, but oh well). Unless he’s suggesting only English refs can’t look another English ref in the eye, which would be a bizarre trait.

The answer is to attract the best refs here, be them English, European or Martian.

I like the idea of foreign refs reffing in the Premier League. It’s impossible to grow up in this country and not grow to like/dislike certain teams and players, regardless of who you support. I don’t think any refs are deliberately impartial but I think it definitely impacts on their performance.

[rob1966]

I like the idea of foreign refs reffing in the Premier League. It’s impossible to grow up in this country and not grow to like/dislike certain teams and players, regardless of who you support. I don’t think any refs are deliberately impartial but I think it definitely impacts on their performance.

There is no way you can grow up in Wythenshawe, in an Utd supporting family for example and not hate us.

[4pool]

In order for a Fifa to allow a Ref to Ref International matches, they must also be proficient in English.

Shouldn't be a problem in UEFA countries should it.

[clinical]

VAR is going to be great in a year or so. Once they get better at it will be best thing for this sport. Sick of the ref incompetence deciding a game.

[4pool]

VAR incident rating so far at the WC. To long to post, as they breakdown each incident,  so read it for yourselves.

http://www.espn.com/soccer/fifa-world-cup/4/blog/post/3533707/var-at-the-world-cup-a-timeline-of-the-tournament

[oldfordie]

VAR is going to be great in a year or so. Once they get better at it will be best thing for this sport. Sick of the ref incompetence deciding a game.

Same here. am also fed up with the reaction to bad ref decisions, how we need to get better officials. 
VAR has highlighted one major point against that argument. in many cases VAR has shown you need to view the incident from many angles before you get the right angle to make a judgement. this shows all the awful red decisions in the past isn't all down to bad refereeing. it's also down to the ref not having a good angle to view the incident.

[farawayred]

VAR incident rating so far at the WC. To long to post, as they breakdown each incident,  so read it for yourselves.

http://www.espn.com/soccer/fifa-world-cup/4/blog/post/3533707/var-at-the-world-cup-a-timeline-of-the-tournament

Thanks for posting. Some of the analysis there...

The only game that the VAR was not on top of the game was England; no idea what happened there.

[LiverLuke]

loving seeing the bad decisions get overturned to correct ones at the WC. two really good ones today.

[IanZG]

loving seeing the bad decisions get overturned to correct ones at the WC. two really good ones today.

Both decisions were incorrect, but I can somewhat understand why the refs made the mistakes. It's quite something witnessing a sport finally catching up with the times, in a few years VAR will be part of the norm same as the Eagle eye is in tennis, but at the moment it's just so satisfying seeing decisions overruled fairly quickly.

[Ravishing Rick Dude]

Two VAR decisions (Neymar diving and Iceland penalty) were spot on today. 

[LiverLuke]

Both decisions were incorrect, but I can somewhat understand why the refs made the mistakes. It's quite something witnessing a sport finally catching up with the times, in a few years VAR will be part of the norm same as the Eagle eye is in tennis, but at the moment it's just so satisfying seeing decisions overruled fairly quickly.

spot on. i think those of us that have been calling for it for years are going to completely justified

[soxfan]

Something I proposed earlier is how I would solve the Referee situation.

Take the top 5 leagues : England, Spain, France, Germany , and Italy.

Take the top Refs from that League and rotate them every season.

So the English Refs would do..Germany one season, then Spain one season, then France one season, then Italy one season..and then rotate back to Germany...etc.

Obviously the other Refs rotate as well.

You never Ref your home league for a season. Anti Brexit proposal..:p

This way there is no club bias in a Refs decision. No ego to protect a League. It makes becoming a Ref in the top 5 league means more Euro experience. Gives them more experience at different styles of play. Makes them better Refs.

If a ref from England doesn't want to work that way, demote him/her back to the Championship and promote another ref.

You are either asking a referee to move his wife and children to a different country every year pulling them out of school and away from their friends, or you are asking the referee to be away from his wife and children for nine months out of the year. You really think that's a possibility?  It might result in better refereeing, or it might not. But I guarantee you it would result in dozens of broken families.  These officials are not millionaires. It's not like they're going to be making extraordinary riches making this rotation you suggest which might enable them to rationalize the decision. You  are basically asking them to stay at their current wages but totally destabilize their families.

[PhaseOfPlay]

You are either asking a referee to move his wife and children to a different country every year pulling them out of school and away from their friends, or you are asking the referee to be away from his wife and children for nine months out of the year. You really think that's a possibility?  It might result in better refereeing, or it might not. But I guarantee you it would result in dozens of broken families.

It would be the same schedule as the Champions League group games, I think. How long do you think it takes to get from Munich to Liverpool by plane?

[soxfan]

It would be the same schedule as the Champions League group games, I think. How long do you think it takes to get from Munich to Liverpool by plane?

  He's talking about 38 games per season plus cup games. It's not just a handful of games. Basically  blowing up 75% of a persons weekends with his family. Doesn't make sense to me. There are certainly better and easier ways to get better refereeing than this.

[CraigDS]

You are either asking a referee to move his wife and children to a different country every year pulling them out of school and away from their friends, or you are asking the referee to be away from his wife and children for nine months out of the year. You really think that's a possibility?  It might result in better refereeing, or it might not. But I guarantee you it would result in dozens of broken families.  These officials are not millionaires. It's not like they're going to be making extraordinary riches making this rotation you suggest which might enable them to rationalize the decision. You  are basically asking them to stay at their current wages but totally destabilize their families.

Think this is a bit dramatic. Many families move for jobs that pay regular amounts of money, let alone £100k+ which a top ref gets paid.

Plus there is no need for them to move, they can fly in for the weekend set of fixtures, or for their game that week. Simple.