Topic: Brexit - doesn't really seem to be a very good idea does it? (*)

[BobOnATank]

From thinking about the NI border and further comments over the last 24 hours - EU citizens not requiring visas to travel but would require approval to work etc. basically the tories are just going to implement the EU rules on freedom of movement by action but not by name. EU FOM was ALWAYS based on workers rights but repeated governments simply never enforced any control which they were always legally entitled to do, I think that is their solution.

The brexiteers, if they can fathom that, might eventually cry a whitewash as it is a soft brexit approach.

This would also remove any requirement for ROI to implement additional customs checks to restrict the movement of people from ROI through NI to GB, after all the ROI implements the EU immigration rules which match the UK aspirations - just don't call them that will be the tory propaganda message. I think they'll also pin it on "finding a heartfelt solution for NI" but never mentioning that EU immigration is essential to the UK economy anyway so always needed to be maintained.

A neat political solution, solve a problem that should never exist by using the current rules!!

Trading is a whole different ball game...

[Zeb]

Perhaps our MPs should have been a bit more responsible before rushing into triggering art 50.
This was argued on here before the triggering of art 50, how Labour could have refused to vote to trigger art 50 until they were convinced the Torys were ready to negotiate. Brexit means Brexit ?
We knew the 2 yr timescale was ridicules yet our MPs waved the union jack and said anyone who doesn't vote to trigger art 50 is a traitor who doesn't respect democracy.
Ive always been convinced people in yrs to come will look back at this period in disgust. the vast majority of our MPs,Tory and Labour let the country down badly.

True enough. But we are where we are now. And the whole thing is repeating again with plans to have this wonderful transition which has no basis in observable reality and is not so much putting the cart before the horse as shooting the horse before clambering on top of the cart to self-immolate. As that essay concludes, we can't keep punting the discussion on the cost/benefit of leaving the EU into the future - it's just better to have it before the decisions have been made by default.

[oldfordie]

True enough. But we are where we are now. And the whole thing is repeating again with plans to have this wonderful transition which has no basis in observable reality and is not so much putting the cart before the horse as shooting the horse before clambering on top of the cart to self-immolate. As that essay concludes, we can't keep punting the discussion on the cost/benefit of leaving the EU into the future - it's just better to have it before the decisions have been made by default.

Yeah, it was very important to have some sort of detailed cost assessment for leaving the EU from the day we voted to leave the EU.
 David Davis has refused to attend the last 2 months HOC select committee meetings to answer questions on how Brexit is going. Ive read the government are refusing to make a report on leaving the EU public. it's hard to believe they are this clueless. they also have a couple of hundred people working on Brexit in Downing st.
 I don't believe the government are that clueless, they must know how damaging a hard brexit will be on the country but Brexit is a runaway train nobody can stop. how can they justify a U turn after all the s.. they've come out with over the last year.
They've stirred up a national mood for Brexit whatever the cost.

[oldfordie]

If we really hold freedom of speech and freedom of the press as something vital in any democracy then we have to hold an inquiry as soon as possible into whats happened in this country over the last year.
The press and certain politicians have whipped up a ugly hysteria where any dissent to Brexit is viewed as treachery. our politicians have ran away in fear. this is a far worse attack on democracy than any refusal to accept a referendum result.
I believe in freedom of the press but they shouldn't have the right to attack Gina Miller or our judges in the way they did to silence any opposition to their hard Brexit.
The shit will be hitting the fan this time next year, we can't have our politicians cowering in fear. Newspapers should not have the right to show the faces of any MP who opposes brexit with any sort of headline to label them as a Traitor or a enemy of the people who doesn't respect democracy.
Close them down for a month 2 months, a year I couldn't give a s... it has to stop.
The article below is spot on. 

Politicians ‘find it frightening to suggest Brexit could be a disaster’

Politicians find it "frightening" to suggest Brexit could be a disaster as they receive threats and are vilified, a Conservative former minister has said.
Baroness Altmann said a number of politicians from different parties feel the Government's current plan "doesn't look like it's going to deliver" for Britain a better outcome than the existing arrangement.
Lady Altmann, asked why other Tories were not also issuing similar Brexit warnings, told Channel 4 News: "It is so frightening to actually stand up and say 'We might think again about Brexit'.
“It is very hard for anybody to come out and be honest about their views and say ‘Actually this looks like a disaster, we’re worried about it’.”

Asked why, the peer said: “You get vilified, you get threatened.

“The backlash against anyone who is trying to be honest – if one has an honest view, this is such an important issue, this is such a fundamental issue that could change our future forever and could destroy some of the strength of our economy.”
Lady Altmann added she is “not leaving the Conservatives” as she hopes there is “room” in the party for “people who have different views”.
https://business-reporter.co.uk/2017/08/17/politicians-find-frightening-suggest-brexit-disaster/

[ShakaHislop]

The politicians don't help themselves at times though.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/rachel-reeves-brexit-immigration-labour-mp-riots-uk-conference-speech-a7334266.html

[Thush]

The politicians don't help themselves at times though.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/rachel-reeves-brexit-immigration-labour-mp-riots-uk-conference-speech-a7334266.html

This is from last year though.

[oldfordie]

Theres a fine line between bringing up how strongly people feel about Immigration and incitement to cause a riot. she obviously believes this will happen, the question is have people been whipped up into a hysteria for political reasons.
Frottage has said if Brexit doesn't go ahead he will darn khaki and pick up a rifle, he's gone too far, he is threatening to incite a riot. he should be given at least a stern warning, maybe even prosecuted for a criminal offense. he would be a different Frottage from then on. the rhetoric would be toned right down. a criminal offense would mean bye bye the USA, the USA would not let him back in if he had a criminal record.

[stewil007]

Theres a fine line between bringing up how strongly people feel about Immigration and incitement to cause a riot. she obviously believes this will happen, the question is have people been whipped up into a hysteria for political reasons.
Frottage has said if Brexit doesn't go ahead he will darn khaki and pick up a rifle, he's gone too far, he is threatening to incite a riot. he should be given at least a stern warning, maybe even prosecuted for a criminal offense. he would be a different Frottage from then on. the rhetoric would be toned right down. a criminal offense would mean bye bye the USA, the USA would not let him back in if he had a criminal record.

When reading a lot of the comments on facebook from friends and friends of friends regarding Brexit, I don't think it is that much of a push to think there wouldn't be civil unrest if Brexit didn't happen.  Even though the tone has gone down quite bit from when it was just before the vote I don't think it would take much for them to be seething once again, no doubt spear-headed by the likes of Frottage/Gove.Rees Mogg etc etc

[oldfordie]

When reading a lot of the comments on facebook from friends and friends of friends regarding Brexit, I don't think it is that much of a push to think there wouldn't be civil unrest if Brexit didn't happen.  Even though the tone has gone down quite bit from when it was just before the vote I don't think it would take much for them to be seething once again, no doubt spear-headed by the likes of Frottage/Gove.Rees Mogg etc etc

There well maybe protests, some could even turn out to be violent, we've had riots before and people will pay a heavy price for getting involved. it's up to them, we should be more concerned over the way hysteria was whipped up as tactic to stifle any political opposition to a hard Brexit. if our politicians are ruled by the mob then it's anarchy.
How do we stop it from happening, we come down like a ton of bricks on people like Frottage, the prospect of jail sentence would be enough to shut the gob of this freedom fighter.
We've already had one politician shot and killed, Joe Cox, Mair killed Cox a few hours after Frottage stood in front of his obscene breaking point poster.

[So… Howard Philips]

Theres a fine line between bringing up how strongly people feel about Immigration and incitement to cause a riot. she obviously believes this will happen, the question is have people been whipped up into a hysteria for political reasons.
Frottage has said if Brexit doesn't go ahead he will darn khaki and pick up a rifle, he's gone too far, he is threatening to incite a riot. he should be given at least a stern warning, maybe even prosecuted for a criminal offense. he would be a different Frottage from then on. the rhetoric would be toned right down. a criminal offense would mean bye bye the USA, the USA would not let him back in if he had a criminal record.

If he had a conviction for inciting a riot over Brexit Trump would welcome with open arms and a full military escort on arrival.

[Sarge]

Surely the EU tells the UK to fuck off?

They will have too I'm sure, its ther stance they have to take, if you're out you're out, same as us with the border. Its not our problem you voted out you fix it.

[Libertine]

From the Telegraph - opinion piece by head of some looney libertarian think tank.




http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/08/18/brexit-britain-can-give-partners-right-idea-getting-naked/

[J_Kopite]

It must say something that I've never encountered a "Libertarian" that lives in the real world.

[killer-heels]

From the Telegraph - opinion piece by head of some looney libertarian think tank.




http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/08/18/brexit-britain-can-give-partners-right-idea-getting-naked/

Nobody takes the Institute of Economic Affairs seriously.

[ShakaHislop]

Perhaps our MPs should have been a bit more responsible before rushing into triggering art 50.
This was argued on here before the triggering of art 50, how Labour could have refused to vote to trigger art 50 until they were convinced the Torys were ready to negotiate. Brexit means Brexit ?
We knew the 2 yr timescale was ridicules yet our MPs waved the union jack and said anyone who doesn't vote to trigger art 50 is a traitor who doesn't respect democracy.
Ive always been convinced people in yrs to come will look back at this period in disgust. the vast majority of our MPs,Tory and Labour let the country down badly.

Next phase of Brexit talks 'likely delayed' to December - Sky sources

http://news.sky.com/story/next-phase-of-brexit-talks-likely-delayed-to-december-sky-sources-10991514

[oldfordie]

Next phase of Brexit talks 'likely delayed' to December - Sky sources

http://news.sky.com/story/next-phase-of-brexit-talks-likely-delayed-to-december-sky-sources-10991514

Parliament knew this before we triggered art 50, we also knew the French and Dutch would also hold elections and they would delay talks. months of negotiating time lost.

[So… Howard Philips]

It must say something that I've never encountered a "Libertarian" that lives in the real world.

They are either in academic cloud cuckoo land or a trustafarian.

[ShakaHislop]

"The row of the summer" is back on (for a few hours at least)

Britain calls on EU to move Brexit talks forward

LONDON (Reuters) - Brexit minister David Davis called on the European Union on Sunday to relax its position that the two sides must first make progress on a divorce settlement before moving on to discussing future relations.

After a slow start to negotiations to unravel more than 40 years of union, Britain is pressing for talks to move beyond the divorce to offer companies some assurance of what to expect after Britain leaves the EU in March 2019.

This week, the government will issue five new papers to outline proposals for future ties, including how to resolve any future disputes without "the direct jurisdiction of the Court of Justice of the European Union (ECJ)", Davis said.

"I firmly believe the early round of the negotiations have already demonstrated that many questions around our withdrawal are inextricably linked to our future relationship," Davis wrote in the Sunday Times newspaper.

"Both sides need to move swiftly on to discussing our future partnership, and we want that to happen after the European Council in October," he wrote, saying the clock was ticking.

EU officials have said there must be "sufficient progress" in the first stage of talks on the rights of expatriates, Britain's border with EU member Ireland and a financial settlement before they can consider a future relationship.

That has frustrated British officials, who say that until there has been discussion of future ties, including a new customs arrangement and some way of resolving any future disputes, they cannot solve the Irish border issue or financial settlement, two of the more difficult issues in the talks.

"There are financial obligations on both sides that will not be made void by our exit from the EU," Davis wrote. "We are working to determine what these are - and interrogating the basis for the EU's position, line by line, as taxpayers would expect us to do."

He said the Brexit ministry would "advance our thinking further" with the new papers next week.

On the role of the ECJ, Davis said Britain's proposals would be based on "precedents" which do not involve the "direct jurisdiction" of the court, which is hated by many pro-Brexit ministers in the governing Conservative Party.

EU officials say the court should guarantee the rights of EU citizens living or working in Britain after Brexit.

"Ultimately, the key question here is how we fairly consider and solve disputes for both sides," Davis wrote.

http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-davis-idUKKCN1B00BG?feedType=RSS&feedName=domesticNews&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+reuters%2FUKDomesticNews+%28News+%2F+UK+%2F+Domestic+News%29

[classycarra]

"The row of the summer" is back on (for a few hours at least)

Britain calls on EU to move Brexit talks forward

LONDON (Reuters) - Brexit minister David Davis called on the European Union on Sunday to relax its position that the two sides must first make progress on a divorce settlement before moving on to discussing future relations.

After a slow start to negotiations to unravel more than 40 years of union, Britain is pressing for talks to move beyond the divorce to offer companies some assurance of what to expect after Britain leaves the EU in March 2019.

This week, the government will issue five new papers to outline proposals for future ties, including how to resolve any future disputes without "the direct jurisdiction of the Court of Justice of the European Union (ECJ)", Davis said.

"I firmly believe the early round of the negotiations have already demonstrated that many questions around our withdrawal are inextricably linked to our future relationship," Davis wrote in the Sunday Times newspaper.

"Both sides need to move swiftly on to discussing our future partnership, and we want that to happen after the European Council in October," he wrote, saying the clock was ticking.

EU officials have said there must be "sufficient progress" in the first stage of talks on the rights of expatriates, Britain's border with EU member Ireland and a financial settlement before they can consider a future relationship.

That has frustrated British officials, who say that until there has been discussion of future ties, including a new customs arrangement and some way of resolving any future disputes, they cannot solve the Irish border issue or financial settlement, two of the more difficult issues in the talks.

"There are financial obligations on both sides that will not be made void by our exit from the EU," Davis wrote. "We are working to determine what these are - and interrogating the basis for the EU's position, line by line, as taxpayers would expect us to do."

He said the Brexit ministry would "advance our thinking further" with the new papers next week.

On the role of the ECJ, Davis said Britain's proposals would be based on "precedents" which do not involve the "direct jurisdiction" of the court, which is hated by many pro-Brexit ministers in the governing Conservative Party.

EU officials say the court should guarantee the rights of EU citizens living or working in Britain after Brexit.

"Ultimately, the key question here is how we fairly consider and solve disputes for both sides," Davis wrote.

http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-davis-idUKKCN1B00BG?feedType=RSS&feedName=domesticNews&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+reuters%2FUKDomesticNews+%28News+%2F+UK+%2F+Domestic+News%29

So hilariously ignorant, if only it wasn't going to harm the entire country. On the bolded part, it's simply wrong (and displays the catastrophic inability for this government to put themselves in the EU's shoes)

[Andy @ Allerton!]

When reading a lot of the comments on facebook from friends and friends of friends regarding Brexit, I don't think it is that much of a push to think there wouldn't be civil unrest if Brexit didn't happen.  Even though the tone has gone down quite bit from when it was just before the vote I don't think it would take much for them to be seething once again, no doubt spear-headed by the likes of Frottage/Gove.Rees Mogg etc etc

I've seen the same things. They seem to think they are stronger and people wouldn't fight them over it. I think they are in for a shock

[SP]

Patrick Minford is still a c*nt, impervious to the human cost of his extreme ideological position.

[ShakaHislop]

Brexit: Slovenian PM Deals Crushing Blow To UK Government's Strategy 

Brexit negotiations will not proceed to haggling over a future UK-EU trading relationship by October as previously planned, the Slovenian prime minister has warned.

Miro Cerar dashed British hopes of beginning trade talks as soon as possible, suggesting that withdrawal issues in the first stage of discussions - a financial settlement, citizens’ rights, and the Irish border - were too complex to solve in time.

Under the agreed timetable for negotiations, “sufficient progress” must be made on the withdrawal issues before talks on a future trade deal can begin.

Both sides hope that European Commission chief negotiator Michel Barnier will be in a position to make that recommendation to October’s European Council summit of EU leaders, who will have to approve a move to second stage trade talks.

Brexit Secretary David Davis, who originally predicted the “row of the summer” over the sequenced approach to talks, but backed down, used a Sunday newspaper article to attempt to push the negotiations towards trade.

But Cerar, who will be one of the 27 EU leaders at October’s summit, told the Guardian: “I think that the process will definitely take more time than we expected at the start of the negotiations.

“There are so many difficult topics on the table, difficult issues there, that one cannot expect all those issues will be solved according to the schedule made in the first place.

“What is important now is that the three basic issues are solved in reasonable time.

“Then there will be optimism on realistic grounds. I know this issue of finance is a tricky one. But it must also be solved, along with the rights of people.”

The Slovenian PM also criticised a British position paper published last week, which focused on potential future customs arrangements, saying it amounted to “cherry-picking”, which Brussels has repeatedly warned against, the Press Association reported.

“I think it is not realistic, but in the process of negotiations every side has the right to put his proposals and the other can respond,” Cerar said.

“As we said at the beginning, there can be no cherry-picking. This is a very complex whole that we have to solve.”

http://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/brexit-slovenian-pm-deals-crushing-blow-to-uk-governments-strategy/ar-AAqpcwZ?li=AAmiR2Z&ocid=spartandhp

[PaulF]

It is horribly obvious what a weak position we are in. The clock ticking is inevitable. And we can kick and scream all we want but the EU knows that when the 2 years are up we are left in a terrible situation.  They even have the bargaining chip that they could stall, or delay the clock so the bulk of negotiations can be completed.

Even if WTO terms were , 'OK' , without the EU's assistance I doubt we would be in a practical situation to trade on those terms. I am sure we can have agreements with other nations ready to go even if we aren't supposed to be negotiating yet.

[Party Phil]

It is horribly obvious what a weak position we are in. The clock ticking is inevitable. 

I thought I'd clicked on the general transfer thread for a second after reading this

[killer-heels]

The next round of talks may be in December but thats only getting back to the table. The government may cave and agree everything in terms of payment and guaranteeing the rights of EU nationals but they will never resolve the issue around the border of Ireland.

They will be lucky if they actually start trade talks by this point in 2018.

[wordroam]

If we really hold freedom of speech and freedom of the press as something vital in any democracy then we have to hold an inquiry as soon as possible into whats happened in this country over the last year.
The press and certain politicians have whipped up a ugly hysteria where any dissent to Brexit is viewed as treachery. our politicians have ran away in fear. this is a far worse attack on democracy than any refusal to accept a referendum result.
I believe in freedom of the press but they shouldn't have the right to attack Gina Miller or our judges in the way they did to silence any opposition to their hard Brexit.
The shit will be hitting the fan this time next year, we can't have our politicians cowering in fear. Newspapers should not have the right to show the faces of any MP who opposes brexit with any sort of headline to label them as a Traitor or a enemy of the people who doesn't respect democracy.
Close them down for a month 2 months, a year I couldn't give a s... it has to stop.
The article below is spot on. 

Politicians ‘find it frightening to suggest Brexit could be a disaster’

Politicians find it "frightening" to suggest Brexit could be a disaster as they receive threats and are vilified, a Conservative former minister has said.
Baroness Altmann said a number of politicians from different parties feel the Government's current plan "doesn't look like it's going to deliver" for Britain a better outcome than the existing arrangement.
Lady Altmann, asked why other Tories were not also issuing similar Brexit warnings, told Channel 4 News: "It is so frightening to actually stand up and say 'We might think again about Brexit'.
“It is very hard for anybody to come out and be honest about their views and say ‘Actually this looks like a disaster, we’re worried about it’.”

Asked why, the peer said: “You get vilified, you get threatened.

“The backlash against anyone who is trying to be honest – if one has an honest view, this is such an important issue, this is such a fundamental issue that could change our future forever and could destroy some of the strength of our economy.”
Lady Altmann added she is “not leaving the Conservatives” as she hopes there is “room” in the party for “people who have different views”.
https://business-reporter.co.uk/2017/08/17/politicians-find-frightening-suggest-brexit-disaster/

Its not that difficult really. If you think Brexit will be a disaster across the board for your country then you're obliged to fight against it whatever the cost to your political career.

Or what is the point of being in politics ?

[oldfordie]

Its not that difficult really. If you think Brexit will be a disaster across the board for your country then you're obliged to fight against it whatever the cost to your political career.

Or what is the point of being in politics ?

Yes I agree but we should also recognize the media and certain politicians have whipped up a frenzy to intimidate any opposition to brexit. this has to stop.
Frottage latest clarion call was to threaten to don Khaki and pick up a rifle if anyone dares to stop Brexit.
He's not being cute, he's threatening violence to intimidate our MPs to vote for a policy he supports.

[ShakaHislop]

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2017/08/billy-braggs-diary-would-harry-potter-have-voted-brexit

[killer-heels]

Hogwarts wasnt a private school. I guess it was kind of like a Grammer school.

[ShakaHislop]

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/videos/2017-08-21/ireland-s-varadkar-puzzled-by-u-k-trade-demands-video

[rafathegaffa83]

 Ian Dunt‏@IanDunt

Maybe the big divide in politics isn't about left or right, or somewheres vs anywheres or whatever, but about sentiment vs reason.

That's really what Brexit is - the triumph of sentiment over reason. And this Big Ben dogshit seems to have thrown it into sharp relief.

[Claire.]

What the fuck is going on with that James Chapman fella? I saw earlier that he's got another account and is posting pictures and saying he's been roughed up by Greek police! Anyone been following it?

[ShakaHislop]

Opinium poll putting Remain (47%) ahead of Leave (44%) if another referendum was held, although 49% oppose holding another referendum vs 37% who would like to have one.

24% of Leave voters expect £350m to go to the NHS.

38% of all voters believe we should stay in the single market, even if it means accepting free movement of labour versus 37% who believe ending free movement of labour should be prioritised over staying in the single market.

http://opinium.co.uk/political-polling-15th-august-2017/

http://opinium.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/VI-15-08-2017.xls

[killer-heels]

Opinium poll putting Remain (47%) ahead of Leave (44%) if another referendum was held, although 49% oppose holding another referendum vs 37% who would like to have one.

24% of Leave voters expect £350m to go to the NHS.

38% of all voters believe we should stay in the single market, even if it means accepting free movement of labour versus 37% who believe ending free movement of labour should be prioritised over staying in the single market.

http://opinium.co.uk/political-polling-15th-august-2017/

http://opinium.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/VI-15-08-2017.xls

So, pretty much neck and neck then.

[oldfordie]

Opinium poll putting Remain (47%) ahead of Leave (44%) if another referendum was held, although 49% oppose holding another referendum vs 37% who would like to have one.

24% of Leave voters expect £350m to go to the NHS.

38% of all voters believe we should stay in the single market, even if it means accepting free movement of labour versus 37% who believe ending free movement of labour should be prioritised over staying in the single market.

http://opinium.co.uk/political-polling-15th-august-2017/

http://opinium.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/VI-15-08-2017.xls

I wish somebody would put up a proper fight to justify holding another referendum. if they did this then that 37% figure supporting another referendum would jump right up.
 You don't fight a hard Brexit by trying to change the minds of the people who voted for a hard Brexit. this hard Brexit won't happen because hard Brexit supporters want it to happen, it will happen because millions of people who didn't vote for it have been conned into believing they have to support it.
The flaw in this propaganda is people were promised a deal that gives us tariff free access to the SM+CU. NHS money etc etc.
The Toys told us everyone must respect and accept everyone voted to leave the EU+SM. how everyone voted to take back control of FOM +our laws, voted for us to have the power to negotiate our own trade deals. am certain people did vote for some of these things but the biggest issue of all has been swept under the carpet, people also voted leave believing we would be given a deal that gives us roughly what we have now, tariff free access to the SM+CU. money to NHS etc
If people didn't vote for this hard Brexit or voted leave believing leave meant we would get a great deal that gives us tariff free access to the SM+CU then they shouldn't let the Torys con them into believing we all have to get behind this hard Brexit.
Democracy has been the biggest casualty of this referendum. Labours job was to hold the Torys to account, they didn't have to argue against Brexit, they only had to expose the Torys lies justifying their hard Brexit to f.. up this hard right Tory Brexit. we got nothing.

[ShakaHislop]

It's from an earlier poll taken at the start of June but 20% of Leave voters then thought it was likely that we could stay in the Single Market while stopping free movement of labour.

17% didn't know/were unsure. 41% thought it was unlikely.

14% of Remain voters thought that outcome was likely. Another 14% didn't know/were unsure and 55% thought it was unlikely.

So that's:
37% likely/didn't know/unsure vs 41% unlikely for Leave
28% likely/didn't know/unsure vs 55% unlikely for Remain

http://opinium.co.uk/political-polling-4th-june-2017/

http://opinium.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/VI-04-06-17-Final-Opinium-Poll.xls

[SP]

The polls are bullshit because outside of political junkies, the general populace do not realise how undeliverable both main parties' positions are.

As it moves from the waffle stage to harsh realities, those numbers can change pretty rapidly. Look at the movement in numbers when they tried to sell the unpalatable May as PM. The reality of a Brexit agreeement will be even less appealing. The public can sold on lies of jam. When the realisation that the jam is sackcloth and ashes hits, the backlash will be brutal.

[oldfordie]

The polls are bullshit because outside of political junkies, the general populace do not realise how undeliverable both main parties' positions are.

As it moves from the waffle stage to harsh realities, those numbers can change pretty rapidly. Look at the movement in numbers when they tried to sell the unpalatable May as PM. The reality of a Brexit agreeement will be even less appealing. The public can sold on lies of jam. When the realisation that the jam is sackcloth and ashes hits, the backlash will be brutal.

I really hope your right, what backlash where you thinking of. the public backlash cant stop the Torys now, Owen Smith asked Corbyn a question during the leadership debates.
If the evidence shows Brexit will be a disaster we have to reconsider. Corbyn disagreed. he said we have to accept the result of the referendum. we are leaving the EU.

[ShakaHislop]

The polls are bullshit because outside of political junkies, the general populace do not realise how undeliverable both main parties' positions are.

As it moves from the waffle stage to harsh realities, those numbers can change pretty rapidly. Look at the movement in numbers when they tried to sell the unpalatable May as PM. The reality of a Brexit agreeement will be even less appealing. The public can sold on lies of jam. When the realisation that the jam is sackcloth and ashes hits, the backlash will be brutal.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/aug/22/theresa-may-u-turn-brexit-european-court-justice?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

[Currywurst]

I see the latest flag-waving exercise is to promise that the UK won't be subject to ECJ jurisdiction, with May claiming:

 "What we will be able to do is to make our own laws - Parliament will make our laws - it is British judges that will interpret those laws, and it will be the British Supreme Court that will be the ultimate arbiter of those laws."

So that would be those British judges sitting in the British Supreme Court whom the Daily Fail was calling "traitors" just a short while ago.