Topic: Brexit - doesn't really seem to be a very good idea does it? (*)

[The Gulleysucker]

Interesting article that should cause some pondering as to another possible consequence of Brexit...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-37512419

Given the dearth of understanding of IT and Data Protection amongst the majority of our MP's, it's the sort of thing that could very likely be overlooked or dismissed as of little consequence, but it is quite important if you want to have at least some semblence of security and protection of data about yourself from being accessed by third parties without your knowledge.

At the moment, there are some pretty good rules about exporting such personal information out of the EU, but all that could change for us here post-Brexit in the UK, as I expect US Medical Health Insurance companies and their lobbyists amongst our Political elites are well aware....unfettered access to all our NHS records for example could likely fetch a tidy sum for someone.

[Claire.]

You make a good point, gulley, we've been doing some work for these regulations coming in at work and from a consumer point of view they are excellent as you can request all data a company holds on you and what it is used for.

Further reading for anyone who's interested: http://www.eugdpr.org/

[The Gulleysucker]

It's actually all quite worrying, this sleepwalk into a free for all bedlam.

[Thush]

It's actually all quite worrying, this sleepwalk into a free for all bedlam.

Maybe not a sleepwalk, given that the Tories driving this.

[Red-Soldier]

Maybe not a sleepwalk, given that the Tories driving this.

Not forgetting the rubber stamping by Labour 

[Claire.]

It's actually all quite worrying, this sleepwalk into a free for all bedlam.

There's an article in the guardian today from a guest writer; Corbyn supporter who was remain but using the Owen Jones bollocks of democracy + corbyn supports it = 'it might ruin everything but Corbyn says it'll be fine and we can just blame the tories anyway' is quite possibly the most worrying thing of all, I keep coming across people who hold this view. It's driving me mad.

I couldn't give a shiny shite if fighting and stopping brexit meant the tories didn't disappear up their own arses, it doesn't matter if it's them or another party, there will always be a party to represent the right, it's more important we still have a country.

[Lush is the best medicine...]

There's an article in the guardian today from a guest writer; Corbyn supporter who was remain but using the Owen Jones bollocks of democracy + corbyn supports it = 'it might ruin everything but Corbyn says it'll be fine and we can just blame the tories anyway' is quite possibly the most worrying thing of all, I keep coming across people who hold this view. It's driving me mad.

its more the people who have all this hope invested in a leadership who's entire careers scream mediocrity yet they will fix all the problems which terrifies me

[oldfordie]

its more the people who have all this hope invested in a leadership who's entire careers scream mediocrity yet they will fix all the problems which terrifies me

To be fair, this has all been worked out and discussed in theory in the back room of pubs for over 40 yrs. nows the time to put those plans into action.
Yes, I agree , it's terrifying.

[Conocinico]

I'm constantly hearing about all the positives of the EU. Protecting workers rights, free trade, environmental and food standards, the impossibility of war in Europe, I'm sure there's at least a million more other benefits. But don't we as a nation want these things anyway? What the fuck do we need the EU for then? Unless we don't trust ourselves. If not, that's the real fight.

[oldfordie]

I'm constantly hearing about all the positives of the EU. Protecting workers rights, free trade, environmental and food standards, the impossibility of war in Europe, I'm sure there's at least a million more other benefits. But don't we as a nation want these things anyway? What the fuck do we need the EU for then? Unless we don't trust ourselves. If not, that's the real fight.

Thats a very good question and something leave voters will learn the answer too the hard way.
All the higher standards you mention cost money, if there was no EU and our country implemented all these high standards then the cost to produce goods in this country would rise dramatically, we would find it impossible to compete with countrys who have very low standards. this is what people mean when they say we compete on a level playing feild as members of the EU. all EU countrys are focred to have higher standards, nobody can undercut each other for this reason.
The EU have safe guards to protect EU workers from being undercut by cheap labour from outside the EU. tariffs and penalty's.
We will now leave the EU and we will be forced to compete with countrys who have lower standards and working condition's than ourselves. they will produce goods far cheaper than we can. how will we compete?
Wage cuts. jobs lost as we will have to become even more efficient. etc etc
We said this before the referendum, it was ignored as project fear.

[Conocinico]

Thats a very good question and something leave voters will learn the answer too the hard way.
All the higher standards you mention cost money, if there was no EU and our country implemented all these high standards then the cost to produce goods in this country would rise dramatically, we would find it impossible to compete with countrys who have very low standards. this is what people mean when they say we compete on a level playing feild as members of the EU. all EU countrys are focred to have higher standards, nobody can undercut each other for this reason.
The EU have safe guards to protect EU workers from being undercut by cheap labour from outside the EU. tariffs and penalty's.
We will now leave the EU and we will be forced to compete with countrys who have lower standards and working condition's than ourselves. they will produce goods far cheaper than we can. how will we compete?
Wage cuts. jobs lost as we will have to become even more efficient. etc etc
We said this before the referendum, it was ignored as project fear.

No, I don't get that mate. Economics isn't my strong point.

[oldfordie]

No, I don't get that mate. Economics isn't my strong point.

Am sure there are millions of other people who wouldn't understand as well. which is why we should never have had a referendum on such an important issue in the first place.

[Claire.]

I'm constantly hearing about all the positives of the EU. Protecting workers rights, free trade, environmental and food standards, the impossibility of war in Europe, I'm sure there's at least a million more other benefits. But don't we as a nation want these things anyway? What the fuck do we need the EU for then? Unless we don't trust ourselves. If not, that's the real fight.

The EU is a safeguard, governments come and go and often have dramatically different ideologies - the EU is a baseline for certain aspects of our society, it keeps us close and co-operating which considering our shared histories can only be a positive.

This is aimed at young people, so don't think I'm being a twat by linking to it, but I've actually done them myself and found them interesting: http://europa.eu/teachers-corner/quiz/how-does-eu-work

[killer-heels]

I think of all the overblown fears of leaving the EU the whole war and conflict one is without the most crazy one. We are not turning to conflict with Europe if we leave the EU.

Also is free trade a good thing?

[TepidT2O]

I think of all the overblown fears of leaving the EU the whole war and conflict one is without the most crazy one. We are not turning to conflict with Europe if we leave the EU.

Also is free trade a good thing?

Yes, undoubtedly.  It brings problems and needs to be monitored and regulations to govern it (which is what the EU provided), but overwhelmingly yes.

[Red-Soldier]

I think of all the overblown fears of leaving the EU the whole war and conflict one is without the most crazy one. We are not turning to conflict with Europe if we leave the EU.

Also is free trade a good thing?

I could make an argument that free trade has been to the detriment of the environment, especially in some countries..

But there are also positives.

[thelinnen]

I'm constantly hearing about all the positives of the EU. Protecting workers rights, free trade, environmental and food standards, the impossibility of war in Europe, I'm sure there's at least a million more other benefits. But don't we as a nation want these things anyway? What the fuck do we need the EU for then? Unless we don't trust ourselves. If not, that's the real fight.

It's more about strength in numbers, lobbying will be much easier out of the EU and the MPs will listen to it. It's a harder to push an agenda when you have to get other countries to agree with it. You end up with legislature that limits as many negative externalities as possible. Apart from the financial sector, regulating that is a minefield.

[Claire.]

I think of all the overblown fears of leaving the EU the whole war and conflict one is without the most crazy one. We are not turning to conflict with Europe if we leave the EU.

I don't think we should ever be complacent over it, close co-operation has served us well.

[Red-Soldier]

I don't think we should ever be complacent over it, close co-operation has served us well.

I agree, especially with the bolded part.

[Elmo!]

I think of all the overblown fears of leaving the EU the whole war and conflict one is without the most crazy one. We are not turning to conflict with Europe if we leave the EU.

I don't think people are suggesting that the UK will end up going to war with the EU or EU countries because of Brexit, just that if the EU project was to fall apart wars would be more likely to happen and Brexit could be the trigger for that.

[stewil007]

So on the news last night they were talking about the Brexit divorce bill being in the region of Ł36bn and they had some Tory MP saying we shouldn't be paying anything and (this was the bit that got me) all the people who voted leave wouldn't expect to pay anything either......now would that be because it wasn't mentioned during the campaigning, and if it was mentioned it wasn't front and centre

[oldfordie]

I think of all the overblown fears of leaving the EU the whole war and conflict one is without the most crazy one. We are not turning to conflict with Europe if we leave the EU.

Also is free trade a good thing?

Honestly,I find it hard to understand why the British worker would even ask the question.
Do you think the British worker should accept lower wages and work standards to help them become more competitive against country's who pay their workers buttons.
Corbyn talks about protecting the min wage and workers rights, while that's a good thing he's missing the point, he cant protect the British workers job if they cant compete in the big wide world without protection. he cant stop companys who are now paying a decent wage from forcing wage cuts etc in the hope of keeping their company viable.
Am retired now, none of this will harm me, I just find it hard to believe people cant see what's coming.
The Torys won't have to pass laws to force massive change on the British worker, the British worker will accept this change voluntary to keep their jobs.

[Mutton Geoff]

Honestly,I find it hard to understand why the British worker would even ask the question.
Do you think the British worker should accept lower wages and work standards to help them become more competitive against country's who pay their workers buttons.
Corbyn talks about protecting the min wage and workers rights, while that's a good thing he's missing the point, he cant protect the British workers job if they cant compete in the big wide world without protection. he cant stop companys who are now paying a decent wage from forcing wage cuts etc in the hope of keeping their company viable.
Am retired now, none of this will harm me, I just find it hard to believe people cant see what's coming.
The Torys won't have to pass laws to force massive change on the British worker, the British worker will accept this change voluntary to keep their jobs.

Good post and also we cant stop companies just upping sticks and moving to Ireland or mainland Europe.

Just to add we may leave the EU but we are all still in Nato so we will still be working with Europe on defence etc.

[killer-heels]

I don't think we should ever be complacent over it, close co-operation has served us well.

I don't think people are suggesting that the UK will end up going to war with the EU or EU countries because of Brexit, just that if the EU project was to fall apart wars would be more likely to happen and Brexit could be the trigger for that.

We have systems in place to prevent such a thing including NATO and the UN. The breakup of the EU would cause issues but I would argue against it being the main provider for co-operation.

Anyway, its not the system but the people in charge that could cause such issues and taht would be the case in or out the EU and certainly the EU countries on their side have flirted closer to people willing to disturb the assumed natural order than us.

[lamad]

We have systems in place to prevent such a thing including NATO and the UN. The breakup of the EU would cause issues but I would argue against it being the main provider for co-operation.

Yes we have systems in place, and the main one is called EU. NATO is a military alliance and I would never want to solely trust the military to sort out things and the UN is nowhere near as strong and influential as it should be and often appears helpless or just able to offer humanitarian aid once the worst has happened (see Syria and other conflicts/wars).

The time after WWII has been the longest ever with peace and stability in Europe, for hundreds of years it basically had been one war after another somewhere on the continent. If you can't see the huge part that the European Union plays in this, with its varying aspects of a shared economy on the one hand and the exchange of students, scientists, workers, artists etc. etc. on the other, well... Sure all these things are possible outside of a body such as the EU, but things get way easier when countries work on shared standards and principles. Everything is much more woven into everyone's everyday life and so the desire to start a military conflict with your neighbours drops considerably. That's one of the main ideas behind it and I admit I have a hard time understanding why this is considered a bad thing by some (i.e. it is so terrible that the UK is better off outside of it).

I for one would not have the slightest problem with a United States of Europe, on the contrary I would embrace it and hope it will happen one day (though probably not in my lifetime). And I cannot understand why parts of the British public get near hysterical about this prospect when, gasp, they live in a UNITED Kingdom??!!

[Andy @ Allerton!]

Really sad to see the number of people that voted to leave that would throw their own country, their own families and everyone else under a bus

[TepidT2O]

Really sad to see the number of people that voted to leave that would throw their own country, their own families and everyone else under a bus

But not entirely surprised?

[lamad]

Really sad to see the number of people that voted to leave that would throw their own country, their own families and everyone else under a bus

But probably many would not see it that way, don't you think? Many are just clueless - some more, some less so - and maybe some are naive to the nth degree (not that that is an excuse as it is possible to educate yourself and not just swallow any absurd claim and flat out lie that comes your way).

However, when even on here by some the EU is not seen as the "main provider of co-operation" then, no offence, but frankly that shows that people have no clue as to what the EU means and which trivial aspects of our every frickin daily life are relying on and are influenced by that community. The more I have heard from people in Britain and read over the past few months the more I think many of the UK voters do not have the slightest idea what leaving the EU entails. They might have voted leave for immigration issues or whatever else, but what possibly crashing out of every EU treaty and contract actually means and what kind of work that involves pre and post that deadline is mostly beyond their comprehension. I try not to think of others as uneducated or stupid - in a general sense and not related to posters on here - but sometimes they make it real hard.   

[redbyrdz]

The UK opted out of many of the big European projects, and as a result people here do not have the same every-day experiences the continental Europeans have. No Euro, no Schengen. Still pay in good old British pound, still need to watch the exchange rates, always need a passport to leave the country. Paired with that the island location - no trains to reach bordering countries, no cars with other number plates, again, no foreign Euro coins to turn up in your change. The regulations, contracts, agreements happen far away from home and are not experienced directly and only reported in the media as 'the faceless bureaucrats in Brussels rule us'. Europe for most in the UK, is still something external, a holiday destination, not something to be part of.


There are other, underlying issues...a different understanding of democracy, the aspiration to be 'elite'....I don't think I could discuss this on here without causing a massive uproar, so lets just leave it at the bit above, which I think is a main reason of 'disengagement' with the EU.

[lamad]

The UK opted out of many of the big European projects, and as a result people here do not have the same every-day experiences the continental Europeans have... Europe for most in the UK, is still something external, a holiday destination, not something to be part of.

Well said and much better than I could have expressed it, and I would co-sign all your points. Sometimes it's all the small things that contribute to the relations between countries and people in the long term, seemingly unimportant stuff like having other cars around, from French to Dutch to Polish, you see all sorts of cars with the blue flag and yellow stars on a daily basis in my city and it feels like family. Mind, I'm always happy to see UK licence plates, but it's now always accompanied by thoughts like 'wonder if this person is feeling happy or unhappy here or plans on staying here or what will Brexit mean for them'.

But even with having opted out of various EU projects and being emotionally more detached, the fact remains that the UK has to disentangle itself from decades of having been woven into the EU fabric and I don't think many people realise what that means (I am not claiming I do). It's just allround sad... I was really angry at various points over the past twelve months, but during my recent visit to Liverpool I mainly felt depressed thinking about what UK-EU relations might look like in a few years from now and .... it felt so unreal somehow. We really don't want to lose you. 

[Libertine]

Good thread:

@jonnymorris1973

Thing I don't understand about Brexit. Govt says we're leaving the EU, single market, free movement area etc in April 2019. 20 months away.

But if that's happening, why isn't Dover a big building site? We will need to massively increase customs capacity to check stuff in & out.

We will (at least) need to have increased border checks in Northern Ireland. So why aren't the government buying up sites along the border?

We will need new agencies *up and running* on April 1 2019 for air safety, maritime safety, chemicals, medicines, disease prevention etc.

So where are the buildings being built, bought or leased for these new agencies? Where are the job advertisements for these new agencies?

And so on. All the stuff that should be happening if we're leaving the EU in 2019 isn't actually happening. There are two possible reasons.

1) Our government is incompetent or 2) They don't expect us to leave the EU in 2019 cos they hope an excuse to delay/cancel will turn up.

The mystery is why all the 'Brexiteers' aren't kicking up a fuss about this. Surely they should be asking why this stuff isn't happening?

https://twitter.com/jonnymorris1973/status/894842103158714368



The rational option would of course be no. 2 - the government will avoid catastrophe by going for a long transitional period similar to the status quo. But these days, and given the idiots involved, no. 1 seems like the simplest and most likely explanation.

[killer-heels]

They will push for a transitional deal. Personally i hope the EU rejects that request.

[ShakaHislop]

Brexit Is A Catastrophe, Says David Davis' Ex-Chief Of Staff James Chapman

http://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/brexit-is-a-catastrophe-says-david-davis-ex-chief-of-staff-james-chapman/ar-AApJPUs?li=AAmiR2Z&ocid=spartandhp

[oldfordie]

Brexit Is A Catastrophe, Says David Davis' Ex-Chief Of Staff James Chapman

http://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/brexit-is-a-catastrophe-says-david-davis-ex-chief-of-staff-james-chapman/ar-AApJPUs?li=AAmiR2Z&ocid=spartandhp

Labour should not ignore the old saying necessity is the mother of invention. there are millions of people sick at the way both partys are only talking to leave voters and the gullible.
If both partys continue talking s... then something will happen over the next 18 months.

[Libertine]

[BobOnATank]

The UK opted out of many of the big European projects, and as a result people here do not have the same every-day experiences the continental Europeans have. No Euro, no Schengen. Still pay in good old British pound, still need to watch the exchange rates, always need a passport to leave the country. Paired with that the island location - no trains to reach bordering countries, no cars with other number plates, again, no foreign Euro coins to turn up in your change. The regulations, contracts, agreements happen far away from home and are not experienced directly and only reported in the media as 'the faceless bureaucrats in Brussels rule us'. Europe for most in the UK, is still something external, a holiday destination, not something to be part of.


There are other, underlying issues...a different understanding of democracy, the aspiration to be 'elite'....I don't think I could discuss this on here without causing a massive uproar, so lets just leave it at the bit above, which I think is a main reason of 'disengagement' with the EU.

Yes little englanders with little englander attitudes voted for brexit no real surprise is it - most haven't even heard of foreign places where those things happen everyday, N Ireland for example. Most of them thought the EU was like the USA Senate for crying out loud plus it wasn't only the media that reported  'the faceless bureaucrats in Brussels rule us' the politicians ran that line for decades if anything was an annoyance to sell to the public.

[Trada]

Brexit bill will remove right to sue government

Britons will lose their right to sue the government for breaking the law under Brexit plans that could allow ministers to escape censure over air pollution.

Legislation to ban individuals and companies from bringing compensation claims against Whitehall after Brexit is being drawn up, The Times has learnt.

Swathes of the law covering areas such as the environment, workers’ rights and business regulation will no longer be subject to financial redress through the courts. Since a European Court ruling in 1991, citizens have been able to sue member states for damage

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/brexit-bill-will-remove-right-to-sue-government-750dhfjj3

[killer-heels]

Interesting survey this.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-29-remain-voters-accept-deport-eu-citizens-must-leave-study-lse-oxford-a7889241.html%3famp

[oldfordie]

Interesting survey this.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-29-remain-voters-accept-deport-eu-citizens-must-leave-study-lse-oxford-a7889241.html%3famp

It is interesting as it shows people voted leave and stay for many different reasons.
Some remain voters would like control of FOM but they put the economy first.
Some leave voters aren't bothered about control of FOM but they put sovereignty above any thing else. or maybe money to the NHS. etc etc.
All of this was soon forgotten when May told the Country. everyone who voted leave voted to leave the SM and get control of FOM.

[ShakaHislop]

Interesting survey this.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-29-remain-voters-accept-deport-eu-citizens-must-leave-study-lse-oxford-a7889241.html%3famp

I'm interested to see why Remainers favour hard Brexit to soft. I expected a belief in the economic downsides of hard Brexit to draw them to soft Brexit, despite its own flaws.

On a different note, a lack of public appetite for soft Brexit adds to Labour's Brexit headache. I don't believe all those who currently buy into Labour's line of respecting the referendum will continue to do so if it means hard Brexit. I think there's a signifcant amount of expectation among those people that Labour will eventually push for soft Brexit, but it's hard not to see the Labour leadership using survey results such as this to back up their own claim that leaving the EU means we must leave the Single Market, even more so when you remember the whip for Labour MPs to abstain on Chuka Umunna's pro-SM amendment to the Queen's Speech.