Topic: Jo Cox, Labour MP for Batley and Spen, murdered

[Alf Garnett!]

So you teach people that killing is wrong.... by killing them?

Okaaaaay

I dont really care if you or anyone else disagrees with me.

Its my view.

There will be many who will sit quietly,agree & say fuckall because of the barbarity & reaction it provokes.

I'll say it how i see it & take the criticism from those who disagree.

[west_london_red]

not really, I don't see every member of a mosque rounded up when one of their members have committed a crime. Fucking ridiculous.


The guy is a disgusting monster who has committed a murder/Terrorism/what ever you want to call it.

Now all British first members are terrorists/it's a terrorist organisation? Twats they are  but people on here are massively moving the goal posts. Even claiming he needs the death mentality? Jeez.

I didn't say every member of Britain First should be brought in for questioning did I? But that those that he spent time with and regularly associated with should at least be looked at.

[johnsmithlfc]

I dont really care if you or anyone else disagrees with me.

Its my view.

There will be many who will sit quietly,agree & say fuckall because of the barbarity & reaction it provokes.

I'll say it how i see it & take the criticism from those who disagree.

You're entitled to your view and I have not said you're not... I'm just trying to understand it and see the logic in it.
Can you explain it more thoroughly?

[west_london_red]

how do you know they haven't ?

Why don't you ask the person who originally said that they should be?

[redprodigal]

So you teach people that killing is wrong.... by killing them?

Okaaaaay

Can see your point but the truth is I'm not sure which is worse, killing him, or allowing him to spend the rest of his life, which was previously in a kind of isolation, in a kind of isolation in the relative comfort of our prison system, which is how our criminals are kept nowadays.
He's probably looking forward to it in his warped mind.

[KiNki]

Isn't there some rule about not having the death sentence if you want to be an e.u member?

Careful what you wish for Alf.

[redprodigal]

Brought in for questioning associates, members of the same organisation etc

Ah fair comment.

[SamAteTheRedAcid]

I dont really care if you or anyone else disagrees with me.
Its my view.
There will be many who will sit quietly,agree & say fuckall because of the barbarity & reaction it provokes.
I'll say it how i see it & take the criticism from those who disagree.

'People who say they speak as they find and are somehow proud of it'

You sound just like the Britain First lot, that's exactly the kind of stuff they say.

And the idea that you know there's this army of silent people agreeing with you, but don't say anything because of the 'barbarity' it will provoke, are you lacking some sense of irony here, seeing as you've just called for someone's head?

[johnsmithlfc]

Can see your point but the truth is I'm not sure which is worse, killing him, or allowing him to spend the rest of his life, which was previously in a kind of isolation, in a kind of isolation in the relative comfort of our prison system, which is how our criminals are kept nowadays.
He's probably looking forward to it in his warped mind.

Yeah I know...I've heard the argument many time.
Why should he live when he's killed someone, he'll get three square meals and a TV and live the life of Riley etc etc.
I can see both sides of it I really can and if my relative was killed I'd want to be in a room with the person who did it and I'd want to kill them... but that's emotion and it has no place in law.
If we want to live in a civilised society where we don't have state sanctioned murder, then we have to be better than the criminals.

[Millie]

Why don't you ask the person who originally said that they should be?

I have no idea who that was - I was asking you because you said it

Anyway it is highly likely that they will question others that he has associated with.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

Can we keep this out of the thread please. if you gave a toss about someone as decent and caring as Jo Cox you'd know that it's the last thing she would want.

Spot on. From what I've read, she would have been horrified with such a retaliation.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

I dont really care if you or anyone else disagrees with me.

Its my view.

There will be many who will sit quietly,agree & say fuckall because of the barbarity & reaction it provokes.

I'll say it how i see it & take the criticism from those who disagree.

Are you being ironic? The Death Penalty is barbaric and shouldn't have a place in any advanced democratic country.

[saoirse08]

Apologies for going a bit off topic...

On the Britain First thing, one of the reasons I jacked in Facebook a few years ago was people I knew - not exactly friends - would start re-posting BF shite into my timeline. When I questioned why they were liking and agreeing with neo-nazis, they would get all defensive and say shit like: "Well, they've got a point haven't they?" I'd say, "NO. It's neo-nazis propaganda. Factually incorrect to boot" I couldn't believe how much stuff got re-posted, liked etc. Scary the reach the c*nts have. Anyway, in the end, I began to let things pass. I would have spent so much time each day just trying to correct the shit they were posting.

Anyway, I much prefer the deranged loners who inhabit RAWK...

[HarryLabrador]

10:27AM
Thomas Mair gives his name as 'Death to traitors, freedom for Britain'

Thomas Mair, 52, gave his name as "Death to traitors, freedom for Britain" as  he appeared at Westminster Magistrates' Court charged with the murder of MP Jo  Cox.

With the cuffs removed the hearing continued. Asked his name Mair said only: "My name is death to traitors freedom for Britain". He remained silent when asked his date of birth and address.

A short summary of the events leading to Mrs Cox's death and Mair's subsequent arrest was read to the court by prosecuting council David Cawthorne.

Mair was remanded in custody for a bail hearing at the Old Bailey on Monday, June 20, though it was indicated that no bail application was likely.

Mair refused to give his correct name to the court and remained silent when asked his address and date of birth.

He wore a grey jumper, tracksuit bottoms and black shoes and was handcuffed to a guard in the dock during the hearing.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/18/jo-cox-mp-shot-thomas-mair-arrives-at-court-following-murder-cha/

[kennedy81]

How about Jo Cox's husband:

Mainstream politicians ‘clueless on migration debate’, says Jo Cox's husband

Brendan Cox vows to continue work on building international alliance to combat populist right’s focus on public’s fears

Patrick Wintour

Friday 17 June 2016 18.34 BST

Last modified on Friday 17 June 2016 22.00 BST

The husband of Jo Cox plans to continue with a project that aims to build an international alliance to combat “the dangerous breeding ground” of economic insecurity on which the populist right has fed across European politics.

Brendan Cox has let it be known that he is determined to continue with the work in memory of his wife, who was killed on Thursday, but believes this will only succeed if lessons can be learned from why the right has so far taken the initiative on the migration issue.

In a paper he wrote a few weeks before his wife was killed which he has circulated – and asked the Guardian to quote from – Cox argues that one of the problems is that those hostile to refugees are better organised, more focused on galvanising public opinion, and better at tapping into human emotions, including over wider economic insecurities.

Mainstream politicians, he writes, “in most cases are clueless on how to deal with the public debate. Petrified by the rise of the populists they try to neuter them by taking their ground and aping their rhetoric. Far from closing down the debates, these steps legitimise their views, reinforce their frames and pull the debate further to the extremes (Sarkozy and the continuing rise of Front National is a case in point).”

Cox, who has spent months touring Europe speaking to campaigners, refugees and politicians to try to understand why populists have dominated the debate on migration, warns that governments, particularly in the UK, are at risk of focusing on the wrong issues: “They obsess over numbers (to most people 10,000 sounds as scary as 100,000), when they should focus on reinforcing frames of fairness and order.

“The UK government policy is a masterclass in how to get the crisis wrong; set an unrealistic target, miss it, report on it quarterly and in doing so show a complete lack of control heightening concern and fanning the flames of resentment.”

He said the forces hostile to refugees have political parties focused exclusively on the issue, whereas “the supportive groups have a few badly funded NGOs and a social media hashtag. In addition, progressive organisations with strong organising ability (whether political parties, trade unions or pressure groups) generally haven’t prioritised the crisis in the way the populist right have.

“All of this has meant that the populist right have shifted the politics and the public debate of the issue far more than their actual numbers dictate.

“In Germany, for example, huge amounts of energy from the supportive constituency is channelled into practical support, from mentoring to language training. This is hugely valuable but the focus on this above all else has left the public narrative almost uncontested (especially online) for the populist right to exploit.”

Cox also admits that what people think is often not related to facts but to emotion. “In a country like Poland, immigration can dominate a national election debate, despite the country being 97% white Catholic (and immigration levels being at a level where the immigration officers probably remember all the applicants’ names),” he adds.

But he claims that the core of support for refugees is highly motivated and probably has demography on its side. “In the US, UK and France, young people (18-34) are between three and four times more supportive than older people. In addition, people who know refugees and immigrants are much more likely to be supportive of them and of migration as a whole.

“As our societies become more diverse and immigration reaches more communities, more communities are likely to become less prejudiced and more supportive. Like the battle for LGBT rights, there could be a tipping point when debates stop being abstract and start to be based on personal experience.”

In conclusion, Cox writes: “There is no reason we can’t quickly shift the debate back to the mainstream and in doing so not only help refugees and migrants, but also help marginalise the resurgent populist right. To do so we need to readjust our efforts to reflect that power on this issue is with the people.”


https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jun/17/mainstream-politicians-clueless-on-how-to-deal-with-migration-debate-says-jo-coxs-husband

I was reading this last night. It's a very insightful and intelligent piece from Brendan, who is clearly very well informed about what is going on. He makes a great point about how the populist right have cornered online debate in particular. Facebook, twitter, youtube and many other sites have become awash with hateful, right wing clowns who just shout down anyone with opposing views. The internet seems to be a medium quite well suited to sound-bite debating, echo-chamber discussion and divisive ranting, which is perfect for proponents of a far right bent. It makes you grateful for places like RAWK.

It's particularly sad to see so many impressionable young people taken in by their vile ideas, who think it's cool and 'anti-establishment' to have increasingly non-politically correct views. The counter culture was traditionally represented by progressive, center left ideas, but it seems to be flipping the other way round in recent years. I think it's a very worrying development that has caught mainstream politics by surprise.

[Ray K]

The GoFundMe charity page is up to £375,000 in 24 hours. Can't think of any better way of spending your cash this weekend if you have a bit to spare. Great stuff everyone.

[The North Bank]

Based on what he said in court, there can no longer be any doubt as to his motives, links, and intentions. Hopefully they round up all those who helped train him , radicalise him, and arm him, they're as guilty as he is.

[MichaelA]

https://www.gofundme.com/jocox

This is great, almost £100k already to support causes she fought for.

Closing in on £400k now, should reach that amount well before the Ireland v Belgium games finishes.

[oldfordie]

This country has been slowly going further down the road to one horrible country for years. you only have to look at the USA and why there so messed up.
The first amendment gives people carte blanche to write ,do and say what they want. F... the individual or anyone else, we would never tolerate some of the protests allowed over there.
 It's alright saying we have to tackle these groups head on, how,  ban them from campaigning. ban them from demonstrations, yes absolutely. but just banning an organization won't stop this , they will just pop up again under a different name. they will refuse to accept they are a fascist organization.
MPs will no doubt debate how we tackle these extreme political organizations.
  I cant see any other way but considering just what is acceptable rhetoric , this shouldn't just apply to these groups and there magazines, it applys to the irresponsible press we've had over the years.
It really is a minefield, I think we've all read some of the disgusting things wrote in the name of freedom of speech. many have wanted action on this, I just hope people finally say enough is enough, we are heading down a road nobody wants.
Hopefully people bear this in mind when this issue starts to be debated over the coming months.
Nobody is attacking freedom of speech, were stopping people abusing this right to corrupt the minds of others.

[MichaelA]

he just sounds and appears like a tragic little idiot to me

Perhaps. But the tragic little idiot was sufficiently motivated and capable enough to murder a British Member of Parliament in cold blood. He could be labelled all sorts of things, but as a murderer with a political agenda, he is a terrorist.

[redprodigal]

Are you being ironic? The Death Penalty is barbaric and shouldn't have a place in any advanced democratic country.

That's your opinion. Many believe that it is justified in certain curcumstances but that's for another thread.

[HarryLabrador]

https://www.gofundme.com/jocox
Excellent! Just 0ver £407K

[MOZ]

The danger is we elevate these criminals to have political significance that is miles above their actual relevance, lone nuts have sadly existed throughout history, as has our desire to attribute meaning to meaningless acts committed by nobodies

Time will inevitably tell

There is also a danger that we brush this aside as the act of a "tragic little idiot" and fail to heed the warning that there is something more sinister brewing within our society.

[MichaelA]

The danger is we elevate these criminals to have political significance that is miles above their actual relevance, lone nuts have sadly existed throughout history, as has our desire to attribute meaning to meaningless acts committed by nobodies

There is already clear evidence linking him to the far right and each point that you make in your sentence is untrue.

He's committed a significant act, it's specifically relevant to the current referendum debate. He's not a lone nut, and the attribution of meaning has come from his own filthy mouth in a court of law this morning.


The danger is that we diminish an act like this by attempting to play it down. Until the next time, and the time after that.

[۩ Imperator ۩]

There is already clear evidence linking him to the far right and each point that you make in your sentence is untrue.

He's committed a significant act, it's specifically relevant to the current referendum debate. He's not a lone nut, and the attribution of meaning has come from his own filthy mouth in a court of law this morning.


The danger is that we diminish an act like this by attempting to play it down. Until the next time, and the time after that.

Absolutely correct.

[saoirse08]

Not sure if this has been posted: 

Hero pensioner, 77, was stabbed in liver as he tried to save life of Jo Cox


A hero pensioner was stabbed in the liver – the blow narrowly missing his heart – as he tried to save Jo Cox.

Bernard Kenny, 77, was meeting his wife, parked outside the library, when he saw the MP being attacked.

He immediately ran to her aid, risking his own life to tackle the maniac gunman.

But as Jo lay bleeding to death, Mr Kenny was set upon, bundled to the ground and stabbed in the stomach as he tried to defend her.

He was later rushed to the same hospital as Jo, where he is said to be stable, although there are concerns about his condition due to his age.

His wife Doreen has been at his bedside in Leeds General Infirmary.

Tony Robinson, 40, who lives close to the Kennys in Birstall, said: “He deserves a medal for what he did.

“It does not surprise me that when people were running one way, he was going the other way to help. That is typical of him, he is old school.”

He added: “You do not hear so much about the good people these days – only the bad people.

“It is awful what happened, but what a great guy for trying to help in that situation. He should be recognised for what he did.”

Bernard has been commended for his bravery in the past.

In 1973, he was part of the Gomersal Mines Rescue team which tried to save victims of the Lofthouse mining disaster.

Seven men lost their lives after gallons of water flooded the seam.

In an interview to mark the 30th anniversary of the disaster, Mr Kenny recalled: “The conditions we had to work in were rough. We never gave up. We went on with it. It was your duty to try and help them and it was sad when it had to be called off.”

Mr Kenny’s neighbour, who did not want to be named, said: “I’m not surprised if Bernard’s stepped in. He’s a very fit guy, he swims every day.

“Hopefully he’ll be home soon.”

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/hero-pensioner-77-stabbed-liver-8222043

[Alan_X]

The danger is we elevate these criminals to have political significance that is miles above their actual relevance, lone nuts have sadly existed throughout history, as has our desire to attribute meaning to meaningless acts committed by nobodies

Time will inevitably tell

He might be a loner but he's not a lone nut. David Copeland was a loner with a history of mental illness who planted bombs and killed three people. He was also a member of the BNP and was politically motivated. People like this don't act in complete isolation - they take inspiration from the more rabid ends of the political spectrum and take succour from slightly more presentable fascists like Frottage and from idiots like Gove and Johnson who have ridden on the coat-tails of hate speech to suit their agenda.

This was a political motivated act and if we allow it to be swept under the carpet as the act of a one-off loner we are guilty of encouraging the next and the next after that.

[12C]

Perhaps. But the tragic little idiot was sufficiently motivated and capable enough to murder a British Member of Parliament in cold blood. He could be labelled all sorts of things, but as a murderer with a political agenda, he is a terrorist.

Michael Collins once said "the purpose of terrorism is to terrorise". He knew that it was the fear of further terrorism, and the actions taken to avoid such possible acts, that had the greatest effect.

When we change our behaviour, and the way we live our lives because of a perceived threat or fear through the actions of a group or an individual, then we have been terrorised. Terrorist campaigns have brought about vast changes in the way we live. Our freedoms have been curtailed in order to guard our society from potential attacks, you only have to fly on holiday to know that.

Our politicians are already talking in terms of having to protect staff and constituents from potential attacks, which despite best intentions, will sadly curtail the interaction of people and their member of parliament. They have been 'terrorised'.

The cowardly murder of Jo Cox, apparently because she dared to care about other humans, was an act of terrorism. The person responsible was a terrorist.

[zebenzui]

Michael Collins once said "the purpose of terrorism is to terrorise". He knew that it was the fear of further terrorism, and the actions taken to avoid such possible acts, that had the greatest effect.

When we change our behaviour, and the way we live our lives because of a perceived threat or fear through the actions of a group or an individual, then we have been terrorised. Terrorist campaigns have brought about vast changes in the way we live. Our freedoms have been curtailed in order to guard our society from potential attacks, you only have to fly on holiday to know that.

Our politicians are already talking in terms of having to protect staff and constituents from potential attacks, which despite best intentions, will sadly curtail the interaction of people and their member of parliament. They have been 'terrorised'.

I'm sorry but I don't think that's right.

The terrorist 'wins' when through his acts the agenda or cause he advocates is adopted. Preventative measures to counter such future acts has nothing to do with it.

The aim of this Mair character was not to curtail MP-constituent interaction, in the same way that Al-Qaeda did not hijack and crash planes to make me take my shoes off before I board a flight.

[Alan_X]

It's possibly just a coincidence that Britain First use the term 'Traitor' to describe those they disagree with:

From Jayda Fransen's newsletter talking about "pro-EU, Islamist-loving...traitors" during the London Mayoral election:

    "They think they can get away with ruining our country, turning us into a Third World country, giving away our homes, jobs and heritage, but they will face the wrath of the Britain First movement, make no mistake about it!

    We will not rest until every traitor is punished for their crimes against our country.

    And by punished, I mean good old fashioned British justice at the end of a rope!"

http://indy100.independent.co.uk/article/just-britain-first-threatening-to-hang-their-proeu-islamistloving-opponents-at-the-tower-of-london--Z16fxI0Pvl

[redalways]

I can't bear this country anymore. I just can't bear it.

Don't give up. There's enough people on the decent side.

[jillcwhomever]

It's possibly just a coincidence that Britain First use the term 'Traitor' to describe those they disagree with:

From Jayda Fransen's newsletter talking about "pro-EU, Islamist-loving...traitors" during the London Mayoral election:

    "They think they can get away with ruining our country, turning us into a Third World country, giving away our homes, jobs and heritage, but they will face the wrath of the Britain First movement, make no mistake about it!

    We will not rest until every traitor is punished for their crimes against our country.

    And by punished, I mean good old fashioned British justice at the end of a rope!"

http://indy100.independent.co.uk/article/just-britain-first-threatening-to-hang-their-proeu-islamistloving-opponents-at-the-tower-of-london--Z16fxI0Pvl

Jeez I never realized he said that. Surely he could be arrested for that especially considering what has happened. How in hell's name have these groups been allowed to form so radically. This country is going to the dogs and these people are a great example of it. 

[Alan_X]

Jayda Fransen is the girlfriend of Golding. It's hard to think of a more disgusting pair.

[KiNki]

This was a political motivated act and if we allow it to be swept under the carpet as the act of a one-off loner we are guilty of encouraging the next and the next after that.

Alan is 100 per cent correct.

We have as much blood on our hand as the hate speakers if we don't challenge it at every turn, in every instance, shame on us all for not doing more to prevent this, and shame on us all if this doesn't bring us closer together to fight on hate and fascism in all forms.

[12C]

I'm sorry but I don't think that's right.

The terrorist 'wins' when through his acts the agenda or cause he advocates is adopted. Preventative measures to counter such future acts has nothing to do with it.

The aim of this Mair character was not to curtail MP-constituent interaction, in the same way that Al-Qaeda did not hijack and crash planes to make me take my shoes off before I board a flight.

I agree that the ultimate victory for the terrorist is the adoption of their agenda. But the ongoing fight to achieve that agenda and keep it in the forefront of people's minds is a big part of terrorism.
Specific actions in response to terror have resulted in the world I grew up in being changed, mostly for the worse. These are a by-product if you like, but the fact that you take your shoes off keeps the Al-Qaeda agenda current and a part of our lives.
Anyway mate, what do I know, except that the murder of Jo Cox was a despicable action.

[fudge]

Michael Collins once said "the purpose of terrorism is to terrorise". He knew that it was the fear of further terrorism, and the actions taken to avoid such possible acts, that had the greatest effect.

When we change our behaviour, and the way we live our lives because of a perceived threat or fear through the actions of a group or an individual, then we have been terrorised. Terrorist campaigns have brought about vast changes in the way we live. Our freedoms have been curtailed in order to guard our society from potential attacks, you only have to fly on holiday to know that.

Our politicians are already talking in terms of having to protect staff and constituents from potential attacks, which despite best intentions, will sadly curtail the interaction of people and their member of parliament. They have been 'terrorised'.

The cowardly murder of Jo Cox, apparently because she dared to care about other humans, was an act of terrorism. The person responsible was a terrorist.

Spot on.

The tragic thing about this is i don't even think it would even resonate in any shape or form to the likes of Gove/Boris/Partridge I mean Frottage that they somehow might have helped create the climate in which this vile creature felt liberated to do this for the greater good.

[zebenzui]

I agree that the ultimate victory for the terrorist is the adoption of their agenda. But the ongoing fight to achieve that agenda and keep it in the forefront of people's minds is a big part of terrorism.
Specific actions in response to terror have resulted in the world I grew up in being changed, mostly for the worse. These are a by-product if you like, but the fact that you take your shoes off keeps the Al-Qaeda agenda current and a part of our lives.

I can agree with that, insofar as terrorism has aided the curtailing of civil liberties and privacy rights in the old 'security vs freedom' debate.

But other than that it's a very pessimistic way of looking at counter-terrorist measures. To continue on the shoe thing, if it does keep the Al-Qaeda agenda alive and prominent, I'm still not sure how that benefits them, or particularly hinders us. They gain nothing from it, as we lose nothing from it. Perhaps you can argue we now devote a fair amount of resources in counter-terrorist work, but that's as much of a 'win' for the terrorists as the aerial bombing of Britain was a 'win' for Germany as it forced us to manufacture anti-aircraft equipment.

To bring this slightly back on topic, the word terrorism doesn't mean very much to me in how I view this event. Probably because I fear the killer's motives far more than I fear his methods. I don't walk down my street afraid that I'll be stabbed and shot. But I am very much concerned by the racist, gutter nationalist rhetoric that now dominates mainstream political discourse. And I have the awful feeling that the brutal murder of Jo Cox will become a landmark moment when conduct of politics in Britain changes forever. In truth, I was not truly sad at the news at first, I had not heard of the victim before then, and knew nothing of her. At the time I felt only dismay, and disappointment, I recall saying to my girlfriend "is this what we do now?".

[Alan_X]

Spot on.

The tragic thing about this is i don't even think it would even resonate in any shape or form to the likes of Gove/Boris/Partridge I mean Frottage that they somehow might have helped create the climate in which this vile creature felt liberated to do this for the greater good.

I think all three will be very well aware - their quandary will be how to deal with the inconvenient death of a passionate opponent for everything they were against - just when things were going so well.

[thelinnen]

Free speech is a good concept in theory but in practice it allows nationalist and fascist groups to rise up and brainwash thousands.

They can't be reasoned with or talked down and the only way to stop them is to ban it. Perhaps some are too detached from WW2 to see the dangers, it always turns violent and it already has crossed the line this time.

My guess is groups like the EDL and Britain First will be allowed to continue to spew their bile though.

[L666KOP]

Don't give up. There's enough people on the decent side.

There are, you're right.
However, it seems that Frottage/Johnson/Gove are doing their best to replace the void that a seemingly impotent labour party has left.
The uneducated 'working man' with their little Englander attitude has adopted their views and run with the batten.
This whole sorry state of affairs has been whipped up by the aforementioned and 'joe public' has run with it. We've turned into a nation of racisits, and xenophobes.
Those 3 have created a modern day National Front right in front of our eyes, and for a world that's supposedly become more tolerant of our brothers/sisters that follow different religions it's a bloody shame.

Jo was murdered in cold blood, she was a humanitarian, her murderer was a terrorist. Not mentally unstable, not deranged.
A terrorist.
Is this what we've become ? Is this where we want to be as a nation ?
Johnson, Gove, and Frottage are wanting to lead us down a specific path, it's the path some of histories worst leaders trod.
I honestly can't believe that anybody can feel anything but outrage at what has passed.