Topic: Jo Cox, Labour MP for Batley and Spen, murdered

[Claire.]

1: How is this terrorism? the guy from all reports is a nut job with mental health problems.

A politically motivated attack is terrorism. They said on BBC News last night that counter-terrorism officers aren't taking the lead on the investigation but they are involved.

[SP]

Again all the facts are very loose at the moment,  and linking it to the referendum in any way because of one person who looks to be extremely mentality unstable, is a complete joke.

I saw on one news article (and video) the quotes that have been going around about "britain first"  are false.

The news article said "restaurant owner Hicham Ben Abdallah, widely quoted across the media as having claimed Mr. Mair shouted, “Britain First” has told Breitbart London “No, no. I did not hear that”."

And the initial mention of that quote is what has brought about this entire link. So right now all the facts are not present.

The wiser commentators are not linking the act to the referendum directly. There is a seductive argument that corruption of political life by the gradual ukippification of discourse has produced fertile ground for hate-mongers.

[KillieRed]

Just read that the (alleged) murderer was originally from my hometown, before moving to England at 12. I might have gone to primary school with him.

It`s strange to think how a life can follow a certain path and end at such a horrible place. Terrorist, or not, he`s ended his own life as well as ruined the lives of many who were close to Jo Cox.

[Peabee]

Again all the facts are very loose at the moment,  and linking it to the referendum in any way because of one person who looks to be extremely mentality unstable, is a complete joke.

I saw on one news article (and video) the quotes that have been going around about "britain first"  are false.

The news article said "restaurant owner Hicham Ben Abdallah, widely quoted across the media as having claimed Mr. Mair shouted, “Britain First” has told Breitbart London “No, no. I did not hear that”."

And the initial mention of that quote is what has brought about this entire link. So right now all the facts are not present.

Anyways I'm not going to talk any more about it.  I hope she rests in piece

Breitbart, as in the right-wing news website?  I don't see why they should be trusted over other sources. 

[stevensr123]

Breitbart, as in the right-wing news website?  I don't see why they should be trusted over other sources. 

there is a video of the witness saying it.


Just saw the MP in canada breaking down...few tears in me eyes now

[Peabee]

there is a video of the witness saying it.


Just saw the MP in canada breaking down...few tears in me eyes now

The more I hear and read about her, the more upsetting it gets. 

[MOZ]

Again all the facts are very loose at the moment,  and linking it to the referendum in any way because of one person who looks to be extremely mentality unstable, is a complete joke.

I saw on one news article (and video) the quotes that have been going around about "britain first"  are false.

The news article said "restaurant owner Hicham Ben Abdallah, widely quoted across the media as having claimed Mr. Mair shouted, “Britain First” has told Breitbart London “No, no. I did not hear that”."

And the initial mention of that quote is what has brought about this entire link. So right now all the facts are not present.

Anyways I'm not going to talk any more about it.  I hope she rests in piece

The BBC and most reputable sources have reported the witness to be Clarke Rothwell (there is even a video of this).

Hicham Ben Abdallah's name has been used by Britain First apologists (inlcuding Breitbart) trying to promote a "lying Muslim" story.

[AaronSingh25]

Mental problems are often the focus of stories about attacks when the perpetrator is white.

The guy had some ties to a far-right group and several people reported him saying "Britain first" as he attacked. It's not conclusive, but you can certainly see why people would see this as a politically motivated attack.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/jo-cox-dead-thomas-mair-suspect-south-africa-apartheid-a7086426.html

Desperately sad what happened.

But the hypocrisy of the media covering this case is shocking. Imagine the reporting had this been carried out by a muslim. The mantra 'LET THE FACTS COME OUT' would not have applied. Words like 'terrorism', focusing in on the sensationalism of the attacker would have been mentioned every minute. But white guy - it's simply mental illness. Truly pathetic. I am all for getting the facts, and presenting a balanced story - but massive difference in reporting. Meh, very annoying.

Anyways, RIP to this woman. Shitty world at times.

[Craig S]

The BBC and most reputable sources have reported the witness to be Clarke Rothwell (there is even a video of this).

Hicham Ben Abdallah's name has been used by Britain First apologists (inlcuding Breitbart) trying to promote a "lying Muslim" story.

There was also a second witness Graeme Howard who heard him shouting "Britain First" (from the Guardian). I had never heard of that site, Breitbart. But just looking at it's home page and the top stories, it looks awful.

[cdav]

Desperately sad what happened.

But the hypocrisy of the media covering this case is shocking. Imagine the reporting had this been carried out by a muslim. The mantra 'LET THE FACTS COME OUT' would not have applied. Words like 'terrorism', focusing in on the sensationalism of the attacker would have been mentioned every minute. But white guy - it's simply mental illness. Truly pathetic. I am all for getting the facts, and presenting a balanced story - but massive difference in reporting. Meh, very annoying.

Anyways, RIP to this woman. Shitty world at times.

That is not true though, when Stephen Timms was attacked in 2010 by Roshonara Choudhary over his support of the Iraq War- there was not accusations of terrorism either by the news.

You can search google for how it was reported in May 2010 and most of the main are below:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/labour/7725695/Labour-MP-Stephen-Timms-stabbed-at-constituency-surgery.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/8683596.stm
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1278459/Woman-charged-stabbing-Labour-MP-Stephen-Timms.html
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/labour-mp-stephen-timms-stabbed-221348

From what I can see, the most extreme language used to describe the attacker is 'a maniac' and 'crazed woman'.

[planet-terror]

awful awful tragedy..that poor family,
as above,the politics of fear and hate have gone on too long in this country..

[Alf Garnett!]

Its shocking it really is,guns should be completely outlawed-there s no reason anyone other than the police & the army should have them & that should only be to protect the public from any threats.
This type of shit should never happen,it does every day to some degree sadly.
The deterrent in place obviously isnt enough.

[MOZ]

There was also a second witness Graeme Howard who heard him shouting "Britain First" (from the Guardian). I had never heard of that site, Breitbart. But just looking at it's home page and the top stories, it looks awful.

Indeed, and its a shame that someone would think it appropriate to quote it in here in an attempt to discredit the story reported in the wider media.

[Peabee]

There was also a second witness Graeme Howard who heard him shouting "Britain First" (from the Guardian). I had never heard of that site, Breitbart. But just looking at it's home page and the top stories, it looks awful.

It's a right-wing propaganda site (that is backing Trump). Milo yiannopoulos works for them. 

[Tommy Gunn]

RIP Jo Cox.
(For some reason my earlier post was deleted. Could a Mod possibly pm me telling me why? Thanks.)

[Iska]

But the hypocrisy of the media covering this case is shocking. Imagine the reporting had this been carried out by a muslim. The mantra 'LET THE FACTS COME OUT' would not have applied. Words like 'terrorism', focusing in on the sensationalism of the attacker would have been mentioned every minute. But white guy - it's simply mental illness. Truly pathetic. I am all for getting the facts, and presenting a balanced story - but massive difference in reporting. Meh, very annoying.

The facts are coming out in Orlando, and the reporting has been very nuanced, and that's a guy who was actually pledging allegiance to ISIS as he was doing it.

[Ray K]

The US-based Southern Poverty Law Center says that the alleged killer 'was a longtime supporter of the neo-Nazi National Alliance.'

According to records obtained by the Southern Poverty Law Center Mair was a dedicated supporter of the National Alliance (NA), the once premier neo-Nazi organization in the United States, for decades. Mair purchased a manual from the NA in 1999 that included instructions on how to build a pistol.

Mair, who resides in what is described as a semi-detached house on the Fieldhead Estate in Birstall, sent just over $620 to the NA, according to invoices for goods purchased from National Vanguard Books, the NA’s printing imprint. Mair purchased subscriptions for periodicals published by the imprint and he bought works that instruct readers on the “Chemistry of Powder & Explosives,” “Incendiaries,” and a work called “Improvised Munitions Handbook." Under “Section III, No. 9” (page 125) of that handbook, there are detailed instructions for constructing a “Pipe Pistol For .38 Caliber Ammunition” from components that can be purchased from nearly any hardware store.

The NA may be best-known for the work of its now-deceased founder, William Pierce, a former physics professor who also wrote racist novels. One, The Turner Diaries, tells the post-apocalyptic fictional story of a white man fighting in a race war that may have provided inspiration for Oklahoma City bomber Timothy McVeigh.

The Daily Telegraph also reported that Mair was a subscriber to S. A. Patriot, a South African magazine published by White Rhino Club, a pro-apartheid group. The club describes that magazine’s editorial stance as opposed to “multi-cultural societies” and “expansionist Islam.” According to the Daily Telegraph, a January 2006 blog post attributed to the group described Mair as “one of the earliest subscribers and supporters of S. A. Patriot.”

https://www.splcenter.org/hatewatch/2016/06/16/alleged-killer-british-mp-was-longtime-supporter-neo-nazi-national-alliance

[TravisBickle]

I don't want to talk about the media. Or the hypocrisy. Or the fucking "climate" or "rhetoric". Normally I would though, but not with this. In all honesty, I just want to crawl away somewhere. Seriously. The longer this goes on the more it gets me. The more I think about it, and read about it, I just want to fuck off somewhere far far away.

[cloggypop]

Again all the facts are very loose at the moment,  and linking it to the referendum in any way because of one person who looks to be extremely mentality unstable, is a complete joke.

I saw on one news article (and video) the quotes that have been going around about "britain first"  are false.

The news article said "restaurant owner Hicham Ben Abdallah, widely quoted across the media as having claimed Mr. Mair shouted, “Britain First” has told Breitbart London “No, no. I did not hear that”."

And the initial mention of that quote is what has brought about this entire link. So right now all the facts are not present.

Anyways I'm not going to talk any more about it.  I hope she rests in piece

Breitbart. Fucking hell.

[stevensr123]

Breitbart. Fucking hell.

appoligies, didn't realize the website the news article quoted was right wing shite( although the quote itself is real obviously due to the video)

Judging by the more recent reports, seems like he was a right wing nut job then...

[Claire.]

appoligies, didn't realize the website the news article quoted was right wing shite( although the quote itself is real obviously due to the video)

Judging by the more recent reports, seems like he was a right wing nut job terrorist then...

[oldfordie]

A politically motivated attack is terrorism. They said on BBC News last night that counter-terrorism officers aren't taking the lead on the investigation but they are involved.

I don't think there is a strict definition of the word Terrorist. some people believe if you commit an attack for political reasons then your a Terrorist, others like myself just class it as a crime, a political motivated crime but no terrorist. would hope the definition below becomes the norm, calling these lone attackers terrorists does more harm than good. just encourages more attacks.

    conducted either by an organization with an identifiable chain of command or conspiratorial cell structure (whose members wear no uniform or identifying insignia) or a small collection of individuals directly influenced, motivated, or inspired by the ideological aims or example of some existent terrorist movement.

[thelinnen]

If it compromises the integrity of the political system then it is an act of terrorism. Labour have lost a great member of their party and unfortunately this will also have an effect one way or another on events in the coming weeks.

So yes, this is an act of terrorism.

[Red Beret]

I honestly despair for the future of this country. This is where the politics of fear, hate and intolerance lead us. Ultimately this is the ONLY place they can lead us.

Just feeling so upset over it all. We're robbed of good people whilst complete and utter bastards coast along happily. What has the world brought us to? 

[MichaelA]

If it compromises the integrity of the political system then it is an act of terrorism. Labour have lost a great member of their party and unfortunately this will also have an effect one way or another on events in the coming weeks.

So yes, this is an act of terrorism.

Absolutely correct, it's the UK legal definition of terrorism. It's a physical assault on "the body politic". It's really boiling my blood to see anyone try to view it as anything else.

[AaronSingh25]

I don't think there is a strict definition of the word Terrorist. some people believe if you commit an attack for political reasons then your a Terrorist, others like myself just class it as a crime, a political motivated crime but no terrorist. would hope the definition below becomes the norm, calling these lone attackers terrorists does more harm than good. just encourages more attacks.

    conducted either by an organization with an identifiable chain of command or conspiratorial cell structure (whose members wear no uniform or identifying insignia) or a small collection of individuals directly influenced, motivated, or inspired by the ideological aims or example of some existent terrorist movement.

Utter nonsense. Terrorism is any attack carried out with political motivations - no ifs or buts, no different interpretations. Whilst it's not confirmed, it has been reported this man made a political statement at the time of the attack, and belonged to various far right racist groups. If this attack had been carried out by a British born muslim, you would have said Terrorism. But as it's a white guy .... nah, nothing to see, mental illness, etc

[Elmo!]

Utter nonsense. Terrorism is any attack carried out with political motivations - no ifs or buts, no different interpretations. Whilst it's not confirmed, it has been reported this man made a political statement at the time of the attack, and belonged to various far right racist groups. If this attack had been carried out by a British born muslim, you would have said Terrorism. But as it's a white guy .... nah, nothing to see, mental illness, etc

How do you know oldfordie would have said that?  There is an issue as you describe with how the media portrays attacks by muslims/white people but don't jump to conclusions about posters on here.

[MrEazi1]

I honestly despair for the future of this country. This is where the politics of fear, hate and intolerance lead us. Ultimately this is the ONLY place they can lead us.

Just feeling so upset over it all. We're robbed of good people whilst complete and utter bastards coast along happily. What has the world brought us to? 

I'm genuinely scared about what's happening to this country. The political discourse has become so coarse and toxic. Politicians, especially on the right, need to understand language DOES matter, that rhetoric and words CAN inflame and provoke - and there will be extremists who might act on those words in terrible ways.

Seeing the front pages of the right wing papers was sickening, simply dismissing this man as a crazed loner as if he existed in an apolitical vacuum. Bollocks. They've legitimised far-right rhetoric towards refugees and immigrants. Is it any wonder why he shouted "Britain first" in his murderous rampage ?

On a side note - its about time people stop spurting lazy cliches about politicians being "a bunch of crooks" - there are many MPs, far from being cocooned in a Westminster bubble, strive to serve their constituents in their surgeries and genuinely want to do good. Jo Cox being a prime example.

[SenorGarcia]

Frottage in May this year:

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/18/nigel-Frottage-shades-enoch-powell-chuka-umunna

Edit: for some reason The Guardian link isn't working so Huff Post instead:

http://m.huffpost.com/uk/entry/uk_573b8f77e4b0328a838b8c9c?edition=uk

[IgoDirk]

Frottage in May this year:

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/18/nigel-Frottage-shades-enoch-powell-chuka-umunna

Edit: for some reason The Guardian link isn't working so Huff Post instead:

http://m.huffpost.com/uk/entry/uk_573b8f77e4b0328a838b8c9c?edition=uk

It's because rawk autocorrects his name to Frottage, even in the link to the article.

[oldfordie]

Utter nonsense. Terrorism is any attack carried out with political motivations - no ifs or buts, no different interpretations. Whilst it's not confirmed, it has been reported this man made a political statement at the time of the attack, and belonged to various far right racist groups. If this attack had been carried out by a British born muslim, you would have said Terrorism. But as it's a white guy .... nah, nothing to see, mental illness, etc

Well. we will have to disagree then won't we and saying no ifs and buts won't influence me one bit.  Ive actually argued this point when British born Muslims have carried out attacks. so your wrong on that point.
 Political motivations, that's a very vague description and you need a lot more information than that to class someone as being a Terrorist, you have to be more specific.  Political aims yes. motivations no. people get upset with there MPs on a daily basis for not fighting there personal problems, doesn't make them a Terrorist if they attack them does it, it's a crime.
IMO.and am not saying everyone's wrong here, you have to be part of an organization with a cause and aim or at least be in contact with. obviously there are still grey areas.

[MichaelA]

Well. we will have to disagree then won't we and saying no ifs and buts won't influence me one bit.  Ive actually argued this point when British born Muslims have carried out attacks. so your wrong on that point.
 Political motivations, that's a very vague description and you need a lot more information than that to class someone as being a Terrorist, you have to be more specific.  Political aims yes. motivations no. people get upset with there MPs on a daily basis for not fighting there personal problems, doesn't make them a Terrorist if they attack them does it, it's a crime.
IMO.and am not saying everyone's wrong here, you have to be part of an organization with a cause and aim. obviously there are still grey areas.

We're going way off topic, but I am genuinely struggling to understand how you differentiate an aim: "a purpose or intention; a desired outcome" from a motivation: "a reason or reasons for acting or behaving in a particular way". They're two words describing the same thing.

[Claire.]

Well. we will have to disagree then won't we and saying no ifs and buts won't influence me one bit.  Ive actually argued this point when British born Muslims have carried out attacks. so your wrong on that point.
 Political motivations, that's a very vague description and you need a lot more information than that to class someone as being a Terrorist, you have to be more specific.  Political aims yes. motivations no. people get upset with there MPs on a daily basis for not fighting there personal problems, doesn't make them a Terrorist if they attack them does it, it's a crime.
IMO.and am not saying everyone's wrong here, you have to be part of an organization with a cause and aim or at least be in contact with. obviously there are still grey areas.

You not seen any of the media saying he's got links to various white supremacist groups then? Or do they not count?

[oldfordie]

We're going way off topic, but I am genuinely struggling to understand how you differentiate an aim: "a purpose or intention; a desired outcome" from a motivation: "a reason or reasons for acting or behaving in a particular way". They're two words describing the same thing.

Yes we are going off topic Michael, resisted answering some posts for this reason but I think it is a extremely important point. to be honest, am more concerned about giving lone vulnerable people the respectability of committing evil by classing them as a terrorist. am not trying to be clever and argue  semantics.
Motivation is very vague, it's the reason why you act, that can be brought on for personal beliefs. your not part of a political strategy with a aim.

[Red Beret]

Posting this via my phone, so apologies for not pasting the article.

I'm not suggesting BF have anything to do with this; just pointing out that they've hoisted themselves on a petard of their own making.

You can't make dark, vague threats of militant action and then claim this isn't what you meant when some lone nutjob takes inspiration from them.

http://www.hopenothate.org.uk/blog/insider/a-hater-at-heart-4919

[The North Bank]

Id never heard of Jo Cox until she was murdered in broad daylight. Reading about her today, a truly amazing young woman, a brilliant politician, she had been to Syria and the Gaza strip, came out if there unscathed, only to end up murdered at her own door step over here.
Couldn't care less if he was a terrorist, a nazi, or just deranged. I wish he would fry in an electric chair.

[Mutton Geoff]

You know i know we need to discuss these events but the point scoring going on in here and the blame game over the media coverage i find Abhorrent.

 By all accounts she was a lovely Woman, a brilliant mind, a Humanitarian a Wife and Mother of Two Young Children a Lady with a brilliant future, who had her life ended far too young by a deranged person, what the motives are right now i care not a jot, i would rather just remember all the good things she did for her fellow citizens, certainly i get the impression she would not want this political and ideological point scoring to be happening over her death.

[24/7]

Email to party members just landed in my inbox from the party leader:


Dear Jim,

 The whole of the Labour Party and Labour family — and indeed the whole country — will be in shock at the horrific murder of Jo Cox yesterday.

 Today, I have travelled to Birstall to bring the condolences of the Labour movement to Jo's family and constituents.

 Jo Cox was an outstanding and inspiring new Member of Parliament, who had already shown in her life and work her dedication to the cause of peace and social justice.

 She was killed doing the job she was elected to do — representing the people she was elected to serve, doing her duty to the public and our democracy.

 We have requested, and been granted, the recall of Parliament on Monday. The gravity of what has happened means that I have decided, in consultation with our Deputy Leader Tom Watson, and our General Secretary Iain McNicol, to suspend Labour's national referendum campaign this weekend. I have also asked that local campaigning is suspended until Sunday.

 The killing of Jo Cox was not only the tragic loss of a fantastic human being, woman, mother, wife, friend and comrade to so many of us inside and outside Parliament: it was an assault on democracy itself. It was an attack on the right of everyone to have their say in how our country is run and for those that the people elect to be able to listen to and represent them, without fear or favour.

 As Jo's husband Brendan said in his extraordinary and poignant tribute, Jo Cox was also the victim of hatred and intolerance.

 Ours is a country where tolerance and respect for other people and different viewpoints have always been highly valued.

 Jo Cox stood for tolerance, justice, peace and human rights. We must come together as a country and face down hatred and intolerance in our society.

 We send Jo's family, her two young children and her husband Brendan our deepest condolences and love. They are in the hearts of all of us.

 Today we have established an online book of condolences so that Labour members and supporters can send their own messages of condolence and express their thoughts at this troubling time. I hope this will help us all to come together in solidarity and in dedication to a better world.

 You can add your message here: http://www.labour.org.uk/jo-cox

 Finally I want to pay tribute to the extraordinary work of Labour Party staff and members at all levels and in all parts of the country who worked yesterday to deal with this horrific situation. Their commitment in such circumstances is an inspiration to us all.

 Yours sincerely,

 Jeremy

[Alf Garnett!]

You know i know we need to discuss these events but the point scoring going on in here and the blame game over the media coverage i find Abhorrent.

 By all accounts she was a lovely Woman, a brilliant mind, a Humanitarian a Wife and Mother of Two Young Children a Lady with a brilliant future, who had her life ended far too young by a deranged person, what the motives are right now i care not a jot, i would rather just remember all the good things she did for her fellow citizens, certainly i get the impression she would not want this political and ideological point scoring to be happening over her death.

Well said.

[Alan_X]

I just got the same email Jim. Absolutely the right thing to do.