Topic: General Manchester City thread

[LallanaInPyjamas]

Easy to forget that it seemed like the idiot consensus was that Silva was finished before Pep came in.

There can be no surprise that he's flourishing under Pep now that it's happening given what type of player he is but fair play to him. Idiots were saying his legs had completely gone I think.

Fixed.

[B0151?]

Re Ibra, his interview this week
http://www.football-italia.net/114170/zlatan-reignites-pep-feud

I think that Zlatan may have some reason to feel a bit aggrieved, and maybe Pep didn't treat him perfectly. But it was still early in Pep's career and you suspect Zlatan would be difficult to deal with for any manager who deems him as a squad player (the fact Zlatan is still sensitive over this speaks volumes). Ultimately, they just weren't a good match.

[Xxavi]

I think that Zlatan may have some reason to feel a bit aggrieved, and maybe Pep didn't treat him perfectly. But it was still early in Pep's career and you suspect Zlatan would be difficult to deal with for any manager who deems him as a squad player (the fact Zlatan is still sensitive over this speaks volumes). Ultimately, they just weren't a good match.

I agree, mate. Pep was a young rookie coach, and some of the stars are extremely pampered these days. They want their egos massaged and backs kissed 24/7. This group includes the likes of EtoO, Ribery, Neymar and Zlatan. These guys are a trouble to deal with even for accomplished coaches who won trophies, look at Neymar, just doesn't respect Emery. Emery is young but has been a coach for years and has won trophies. Ribery has had issues with both Pep and Ancelotti, despite the fact that the latter was kissing him (including literally kissing him).

Removing all the drama, Ibra says in that interview that he went and asked Pep to sacrifice others but not him for Messi. From his standpoint, it is fair, but he was the weakest link in that attack, he was the foreign object there. Ibra won't accept this but it is true. What did Pep do? OK, I'll deal with it, you are benched.

In his book, Ibra says he was surprised when he came to Barca. All world stars, Iniesta, Xavi and Messi were like schoolboys, quite, humble. It was like back to school he says, it was like back to Ajax. But he wasn't his Ajax self anymore, he wanted to be star, the pompous idiot image he built up over his career. That Pep even warned him to drop the act, and be the part of the modest group (Ferrari, Porsche etc.). No, he wouldn't do it. So Ibra is admitting in his book that he didn't fit in Barca also because of his mindset and personality.

I think what probably happened is that Pep noticed that he got a primadonna who didn't fit the group. He was another EtoO in his hands. And not only that, he just didn't fit Barca's game. But because of his price tag, he kept playing Ibra until he came and demanded the team to be built around him (around winter), and that was it. Not only you are one of the least talented players in the 1st team, and you dare to ask the team to conform to you? He was out from then on. I have no problem with that as a Barca fan, I wanted Ibra gone, too. It was a mistake to sign him, so if Pep has a fault in this, it is approving Ibra's transfer in the first place.

[tubby]

Not only you are one of the least talented players in the 1st team

Hahahaaa.

[Xxavi]

Hahahaaa.

Valdes - Worse than Ibra.

Pique - World class at the time, world cup 2010 winner with Spain at the end of that very season Ibra was at Barca 2009-10.
Puyol - see above.
Marquez - not a first team player any more, but a class player, Barca legend.
Abidal - a world class left back.
Dani Alves - a world class player, legendary right back.

Xavi
Iniesta
Busquets
Toure - not a first team player any more, but was world class, better than Ibra.

Messi
Thierry Henry
Pedro

So now, tell me, is that a wrong statement that Ibra was one of the least talented players in that team? He is perhaps 10-11th best player in that squad, and 9-10th best in the 1st team.

[LallanaInPyjamas]

I have no idea how you can really compare strikers to defenders. But if you're talking about it in the spectrum of raw talent, there's no way you could have Abidal ranked higher than Ibrahimovic.

He'd be 7th or 8th at worst on that list for me on the basis that 2009-10 Ibra was a better player than 2009-10 Henry.

1. Messi
2. Iniesta
3. Xavi
4. Alves
5. Busquets
6. Pique/Puyol/Ibra

[Xxavi]

I have no idea how you can really compare strikers to defenders. But if you're talking about it in the spectrum of raw talent, there's no way you could have Abidal ranked higher than Ibrahimovic.

He'd be 7th or 8th at worst on that list for me on the basis that 2009-10 Ibra was a better player than 2009-10 Henry.

1. Messi
2. Iniesta
3. Xavi
4. Alves
5. Busquets
6. Pique/Puyol/Ibra

I went more with the fact that Barca was littered with world class players, CL winners who have done it in all stages (international+club), and Ibra even to this day hasn't shown that he can be a world class player for a world class team.

But regardless, even if I agree with your assessment, you don't make changes to the all-conquering system of Barca at that time for your 7th best talent. That would just be stupid.

[Xabi Gerrard]

15 wins done and dusted. 16 consecutive wins is the record for both Barca and Real Madrid.

Next up - Spurs. Can Fraudiola do it?

[jamieredders]

15 wins done and dusted. 16 consecutive wins is the record for both Barca and Real Madrid.

Next up - Spurs. Can Fraudiola do it?

Surely Brendan at the mighty Celtic has bettered that?

[Xabi Gerrard]

Hazard above Suarez even, I don't think anyone of those names would put the performances he has shackled by defensive Chelsea managers he's played under, if he played under a Klopp or Guardiola or for one of the two Spanish teams the results would be brutal.

BLASPHEMY!!

The only way Hazard's been better than Suarez in the PL is for the same reason Giggs sometimes gets called the best PL era player - longevity. Suarez 2012-14 was a level (or 3) above any other player in the PL since Ronaldo fucked off.

[Xabi Gerrard]

Surely Brendan at the mighty Celtic has bettered that?

What's the record up there? Must be in triple-digits by now?

[PhaseOfPlay]

What's the record up there? Must be in triple-digits by now?

Well he has 21 wins in a row in the league from last season. And unbeaten in 68 total domestic games, including cups

[vivabobbygraham]

...... They want their egos massaged and backs kissed 24/7............

Nah , he likes it rough

[armchair-fan]

Was mulling this over while sitting through an seemingly endless primary school Christmas nativity show this evening - I think I now rate these as the best team in England to watch since Liverpool 1987-88, which are always the best team in my head (although that could just be an age thing).

[ChaChaMooMoo]

Sterling definitely seems to be revelling in his role as the false-9.

[PhaseOfPlay]

Sterling definitely seems to be revelling in his role as the false-9.

He played his best football with us in the same position.

[Xabi Gerrard]

Was mulling this over while sitting through an seemingly endless primary school Christmas nativity show this evening - I think I now rate these as the best team in England to watch since Liverpool 1987-88, which are always the best team in my head (although that could just be an age thing).

Still too early to say imo, a lot depends on if they can keep this up until May. As we know all too well the English winter is unforgiving - the congestion and lack of break has a tendency to throw many a spanner in the works.

The Chelsea team of 2004-06 and the Man Utd team of 2006-2009 are still the best in that period in my opinion. For starters they were winning what truly was the best league in the world (still to be determined how good the Premier League is at the moment - we'll know by the number of English clubs in the latter rounds of the CL if we really are the best league in the world at the moment).

If English clubs do as well in Europe as those days and if this Man City team get a higher points total (95) than back then, then I'd agree with you, City will be the best. Both are actually looking likely.

[Coolie High]

He played his best football with us in the same position.

Yes I made an argument that Raheem had been tactically better than most his peers at least since then, some people disagreed but can't imagine Pep using Sane as a false 9.

[Ashburton]

More about concentration than role, imo.  He's still drifting around the pitch like he did for you lot, but rather than fluff a shot and not really look 'on it', Pep seems to have helped him being mentally in the game even if he isn't running it, making his finishing much more clinical rather than the laughable efforts he managed most of the time.  With the current market he actually looks good business too.

[El Lobo]

Is he any more clinical?

I think he just plays for a better team now who create more chances for him.

[B0151?]

Is he any more clinical?

I think he just plays for a better team now who create more chances for him.

Without seeing stats, I'd think it's a mixture of both. The more tap ins you get, the more confident you become with the more difficult chances. Always seems to be the case with strikers anyway.

[Shaved Crossbar]

More about concentration than role, imo.  He's still drifting around the pitch like he did for you lot, but rather than fluff a shot and not really look 'on it', Pep seems to have helped him being mentally in the game even if he isn't running it, making his finishing much more clinical rather than the laughable efforts he managed most of the time.  With the current market he actually looks good business too.

I think he ends up as one of the bargains of the decade. In 2014 if you offered me £50m or a near-guaranteed top level player for a decade, I'd pick the latter (and said as much at the time). Obviously we had no leverage and it would have been difficult not to sell, but that's why City got him cheap.

[SlowRap]

I think he ends up as one of the bargains of the decade. In 2014 if you offered me £50m or a near-guaranteed top level player for a decade, I'd pick the latter (and said as much at the time). Obviously we had no leverage and it would have been difficult not to sell, but that's why City got him cheap.

at the time I'd say they paid a fair price for a good player, he still had the chance of going off the rails and not develop - had they not employed the best manager in the world who knows if his development would have continued.

[thelinnen]

Hazard above Suarez even, I don't think anyone of those names would put the performances he has shackled by defensive Chelsea managers he's played under, if he played under a Klopp or Guardiola or for one of the two Spanish teams the results would be brutal.

Nah that's nonsense, he fades in and out of seasons in a similar manner to Coutinho.

[Coolie High]

Nah that's nonsense, he fades in and out of seasons in a similar manner to Coutinho.

Who wouldn't? Chelsea game plan is literally defend deep and give it to Hazard, since Mourinhos been there at least who wouldn't fade in and out, he's not playing under a manager who allows he's attacking players to flourish with the help of others like Rodgers, many a time he is literally their only threat, saying that he has still won 2 leagues and 2 Poty, stick him in Barca or Madrid and there would be no arguments with what I'm saying.

[Xabi Gerrard]

Who wouldn't? Chelsea game plan is literally defend deep and give it to Hazard, since Mourinhos been there at least who wouldn't fade in and out, he's not playing under a manager who allows he's attacking players to flourish with the help of others like Rodgers, many a time he is literally their only threat, saying that he has still won 2 leagues and 2 Poty, stick him in Barca or Madrid and there would be no arguments with what I'm saying.

Why does he sometimes fade in under rigid managers (like Mourinho) and sometimes fade out under rigid managers (like Mourinho)?

[Xxavi]

Who wouldn't? Chelsea game plan is literally defend deep and give it to Hazard, since Mourinhos been there at least who wouldn't fade in and out, he's not playing under a manager who allows he's attacking players to flourish with the help of others like Rodgers, many a time he is literally their only threat, saying that he has still won 2 leagues and 2 Poty, stick him in Barca or Madrid and there would be no arguments with what I'm saying.

I tend to agree. I have warmed a lot to Hazard, I think these days, he is a lot more involved. Still not brilliantly consistent, but these days, when he is having a good game, it last the entire game.

My issue with Hazard was that in the previous years, he would drift in and out of the game within one game itself. He was there just to provide spark, but not dominate. As of recent, however, he dominates some games (see ManU game) from start to finish. Still though, he also can be invisible even now.

[RedBootsTommySmith]

City plan to ‘rule the world’. Interesting read...

https://www.theguardian.com/news/2017/dec/15/manchester-city-football-group-ferran-soriano

“Soriano is now upending football’s established order by building its first true multinational corporation – a Coca-Cola of soccer”.

[ElCapo]

I went more with the fact that Barca was littered with world class players, CL winners who have done it in all stages (international+club), and Ibra even to this day hasn't shown that he can be a world class player for a world class team.

But regardless, even if I agree with your assessment, you don't make changes to the all-conquering system of Barca at that time for your 7th best talent. That would just be stupid.

I don't know why you talk so much bullshit on a recurring basis.

Fact of the matter is that Zlatan Ibrahimovic, the so-called "7th best talent at Barcelona", was bought in a deal equivalent to a €66m (£57m) transfer from Internazionale, which included Samuel Eto'o moving in the opposite direction, to lead the Barcelona attack.

He was wanted by Pepolino to lead the attack, that's why he paid the second highest fee ever at the time.   If he was the worst talent on the team, why did Pep and Barca sanction such a move in the first place?  Barca really wanted him, and wanted an all-cash deal, but Inter wanted a player plus cash deal.  And they rinsed Barcelona in the process. 

http://edition.cnn.com/2009/SPORT/07/27/transfers.etoo.ibrahimovic/index.html

I get it, Pep stumbled into the genius of Messi, decided to deploy him in the middle and reaped the benefits.   But to attempt to re-write history, is frankly so immature.

[ElCapo]

British media (and Xxavi) are going crazy over Pep Guardiola.   

Let's just examine how much the top teams have spent in the last 3 years.

Man City    € 636,700,000
Kevin de Bruyne    € 74,000,000
Raheem Sterling    € 62,500,000
Nicolas Otamendi    € 44,600,000
Patrick Roberts    € 15,000,000
Fabian Delph    € 11,500,000
John Stones    € 55,600,000
Leroy Sane    € 50,000,000
Gabriel Jesus    € 32,000,000
Ilkay Gundogan    € 27,000,000
Nolito     € 18,000,000
Claudio Bravo     € 18,000,000
Benjamin Mendy    € 57,500,000
Kyle Walker    € 51,000,000
Bernardo Silva    € 50,000,000
Ederson    € 40,000,000
Danilo     € 30,000,000

Man Utd    € 427,400,000.00
Anthony Martial     € 60,000,000.00
Matteo Darmian    € 18,000,000.00
Paul Pogba    € 105,000,000.00
Henrikh Mkhitaryan    € 42,000,000.00
Eric Bailly    € 38,000,000.00
Romelu Lukaku    € 84,700,000.00
Nemanja Matic    € 44,700,000.00
Victor Lindeloff    € 35,000,000.00

Chelsea    € 379,700,000.00
Pedro    € 27,000,000.00
Baba    € 20,000,000.00
Michy Batshuayi    € 39,000,000.00
David Luiz    € 35,800,000.00
N'golo Kante    € 35,000,000.00
Marcos Alonso    € 23,000,000.00
Alvaro Morata    € 62,000,000.00
Bakayoko    € 40,000,000.00
Drinkwater    € 37,900,000.00
Rudiger    € 35,000,000.00
Zapacosta    € 25,000,000.00


Tottenham    € 211,700,000.00
Heung-Min Son    € 30,000,000.00
Toby Alderweireld    € 16,000,000.00
Clinton N'jie    € 14,100,000.00
Moussa Sissoko    € 35,000,000.00
Vincent Janssen    € 22,100,000.00
Victor Wanyama    € 14,400,000.00
Davinson Sanches    € 40,000,000.00
Serge Aurier    € 25,000,000.00
Fernando Llorente    € 15,100,000.00

Liverpool    € 207,400,000.00
Roberto Firmino    € 41,000,000.00
Nathaniel Clyne    € 17,700,000.00
Sadio Mane    € 41,200,000.00
Gini Wijnaldum    € 27,500,000.00
Mo Salah     € 42,000,000.00
AOC    € 38,000,000.00


There's a pretty good correlation between and league table position. 

[ElCapo]

Finally, Pep's teams look invincible in November - December.   Bayern were obliterating teams 5-0, 6-0.  Come the business end in April, May they'd come apart in Europe.

The pattern played out last year as well.   City won the opening 7-8 matches and then came undone in the league and CL.  This year they look better, but let's see how the season pans out.  FWIW City's Pep still haven't won anything yet.

[Xxavi]

I don't know why you talk so much bullshit on a recurring basis.

Fact of the matter is that Zlatan Ibrahimovic, the so-called "7th best talent at Barcelona", was bought in a deal equivalent to a €66m (£57m) transfer from Internazionale, which included Samuel Eto'o moving in the opposite direction, to lead the Barcelona attack.

He was wanted by Pepolino to lead the attack, that's why he paid the second highest fee ever at the time.   If he was the worst talent on the team, why did Pep and Barca sanction such a move in the first place?  Barca really wanted him, and wanted an all-cash deal, but Inter wanted a player plus cash deal.  And they rinsed Barcelona in the process. 

http://edition.cnn.com/2009/SPORT/07/27/transfers.etoo.ibrahimovic/index.html

I get it, Pep stumbled into the genius of Messi, decided to deploy him in the middle and reaped the benefits.   But to attempt to re-write history, is frankly so immature.

Well, I guess it depends on your perspective who is talking BS here. Are you not talking BS when you keep citing people like EtoO, Ibra etc. when talking about a manager's quality? Objectively speaking, that's the real BS here since the quality/talent of a given player is a subjective discussion. But you are talking about irrelevant stuff like "EtoO said Pep was unfair to me", yeah, what does it have to do with a manager's quality?

Re-his price tag, it must be that they have bought Ibra's hype at the time, but it is also in large part because Pep and the board wanted to get rid of EtoO. It wasn't a pure case of "we love Ibra so much", it was equally "who will take EtoO off our hands and who can we replace?" Guess what, when you are selling one of the world's best strikers, and you want to replace him with another class striker, there aren't many obvious choices. Ibra was the big fish in a small pond at the time, so the board hoped he'd do well. But he didn't, after his 2-3 games, it was clear he just wasn't good enough. Is it hard to comprehend for you?

Justifying a player's quality using his price tag is what you are trying to do here. There is a long list of expensive flops in the history of football, you don't need me to remind you of Sheva, Kaka, Veron, Mendieta etc. who flopped for one or another reason. Maybe they had arguments, too, that the team wasn't built around them, but the matter of fact is, they just didn't do well.

[Xxavi]

British media (and Xxavi) are going crazy over Pep Guardiola.   

A correction here, a lot of coaches are also waxing lyrical over Pep

It's not 3 journos and me who are sucking Pep dry. I hope you noticed that even a lot of his critics from last year decided to stop with the stupid spending argument that I had answered here 10 times already. You seem to think all these people who praise him are stupid and blind, you are the oracle who sees true Pep, the bald charlatan. Yet, it is not even only in England that people praise him. You should know that very well. Today, I read news that Yuri Semin, FC Lokomotiv's coach, who are current leaders of the Russian league (were unfavored vs free-spending Zenit) sponsored translation of the Pep book (Pep Confidential).

But if you want to cling to your negative views, do it. I am OK with that, I think Ibra was/is massively overrated, you think Pep is overrated, OK, fair enough. I is clear that there is something personal with you and Pep (just like me ). You are ready to praise managers who are not nearly as good, be understanding and forgiving, but literally looking at Pep under microscope to find faults.

[thelinnen]

A correction here, a lot of coaches are also waxing lyrical over Pep

It's not 3 journos and me who are sucking Pep dry. I hope you noticed that even a lot of his critics from last year decided to stop with the stupid spending argument that I had answered here 10 times already. You seem to think all these people who praise him are stupid and blind, you are the oracle who sees true Pep, the bald charlatan. Yet, it is not even only in England that people praise him. You should know that very well. Today, I read news that Yuri Semin, FC Lokomotiv's coach, who are current leaders of the Russian league (were unfavored vs free-spending Zenit) sponsored translation of the Pep book (Pep Confidential).

But if you want to cling to your negative views, do it. I am OK with that, I think Ibra was/is massively overrated, you think Pep is overrated, OK, fair enough. I is clear that there is something personal with you and Pep (just like me ). You are ready to praise managers who are not nearly as good, be understanding and forgiving, but literally looking at Pep under microscope to find faults.

It's the nature of the job he has chosen. When you spend that sort of money anything less than a league challenge is failure.

[Xxavi]

It's the nature of the job he has chosen. When you spend that sort of money anything less than a league challenge is failure.

I concur. I agree that he has to challenge, he has to win etc. But my argument is simple, if you watch ManCity and don't see Pep's hand, you must admit you are biased.

ManCity spent millions/billions even before Pep arrived. I remember how terrible their football was at times under Mancini. Very individualistic, almost no team game. Same with Pellegrini, football was perhaps a little more team oriented, but they were half asleep (along with Pellegrini himself on the bench). That team had no life, and there is no wonder that when Pep joined, most people said that he'd need to do a major rebuilding. That the team was old and tired. And that it will be his greatest challenge. Fast forward 2 years, now, we are told what a brilliant squad he has taken over. Kompany, Silva, Aguero, Toure etc. It's laughable. It's a chicken and egg question. If these people said Pep revitalized them, fine, but they are now adamant that Pep took over a squad full of class players and spent even more. Nobody here would have argued that a single ManCity player would walk into a Bayern/Madrid/Barca team back then. But now we are lead to believe it was a team full of world class talent.

Pep knows expectations. He spent big, he has to win, but also he has to play well. And he accepts that. But the goalposts are constantly moved just to downplay his achievements. No longer his detractors say "he must win the league", they now say "he must also win CL". These guys are really saying that he must win treble every season, anything less is a failure. It's laughable really, it is as if only he has been at the helm of a spending team.

If people are objective about Pep, they'd say that his team had maybe 1 world class player. IMO, even now, he has only 1 world class player in David Silva. KDB is almost there. Sterling, Sane... great talents, but in another team, they could have been Martial's, or Jesus Navas or Lennon. Brainless chickens. Pep has improved a lot of these players. The same happened at Bayern, too. He had Coman and Douglas Costa who were rated as some of the best wingers in Europe and top talents to look out for. I remember Owen Hargreaves singing praises for these. Then, when Pep left, suddenly, under Ancelotti, Costa was a brainless chicken, a one-trick pony. Moved to Juventus, and now is on the verge of getting lost from the list of "great wingers". Coman... who remembers him now? This is the same story with Pedro and others at Barca. Looked like world beaters under Pep, even Jeffren and Tello played well. When he departed, it turns out they were overrated.

So the objective view is, yes, Pep spent big (but only marginally more than ManU if you consider net spent). And yes, Pep has to win. But also, Pep changed those ManCity players, ManCity's football.

[Durlmints]

...

To say City didn't have world class players is crazy. Silva, Kompany and Aguero have been three of the best players in the league for around half a decade! City had a fantastic season under Pellegrini. And they weren't so bad when they were putting 6 past Manchester United at Old Trafford with Mancini.

For what it's worth, I actually agree that Pep is doing a really good job, but let's not pretend he's taken over some plucky upper mid table side or something. Heck, he'd have a much harder job doing what he's doing now if he was Liverpool, Spurs or Arsenal manager.

[El Lobo]

Dear Mr. I'm-Too-Good-to-Hoof-Or-Smash-The-Ball
This'll be the last package I ever send your ass
It's been six years and still no word – I don't deserve it?
I know you saw my last twenty thousand posts about you
I wrote your name on 'em perfect
So this is my cassette I'm sending you, I hope you hear it
I'm in the car right now, I'm doing 90 on the freeway
Hey, Pep, I drank a fifth of vodka, you dare me to post?

[Raaphael]

City might win, but what I don`t get is why they seem to get respect for winning 15 in a row/ang generally winning stuff. It has nothing to do with City. It has to do with oil money and Guardiola. Tranmere would do the same if what happened to City a few years back happened to them. What we see now is not Man City, but a fictional squad of players who happen to play in Manchester because the money is there. 

[RedSince86]

Their outlay for just the last 3 seasons is staggering.

£140 million on 3 fullbacks alone.

Pep has to be winning a CL in his time there,maybe at least 2 of them if he stays beyond his 3 year contract,no excuses as he has unlimited funds to buy any player he desires.

Sad state of affairs for the Premier league if City replicate the domestic superiority of PSG in France.

Platini went soft on both clubs when he had a chance to rein both in,PSG had to halve a 200 million euro a year Qatari tourism commercial deal (Didn't help that Platini's son had a job at PSG) and then they just signed a gluttony of Qatari based commercial deals to make up for uefa action that puts their commercial deals alone over £300 million pounds ,and that fine and punishment for City was hilariously weak for their annual FFP failures.

[b_joseph]

City might win, but what I don`t get is why they seem to get respect for winning 15 in a row/ang generally winning stuff. It has nothing to do with City. It has to do with oil money and Guardiola. Tranmere would do the same if what happened to City a few years back happened to them. What we see now is not Man City, but a fictional squad of players who happen to play in Manchester because the money is there. 

You can think like that but it doesn't take away from their achievement. If it was down to the money, then City would have done it before...or Chelsea, or even Manchester United.

Redsince86 - United pretty much did that from 1993 to 2013. We did it from 73-90. The difficulty of winning might have been different but the end result was similarly predictable.
As for winning the CL. Other teams around the continent have money and special players as well. I don't think too many people look at Real madrids team and think its worse than City's, for example.