Topic: Stevie G and Saudi Arabia

[PhilScraton]

Gobsmacked that one of my all time heroes ... up there with Billy Liddell (showing my age!) and Kenny has taken the tainted money of Al-Ettifaq in the Saudi Pro League. I know people will respond by commenting that there is no society where its State is untainted - I work on deaths in custody, human rights abuses etc. in the UK and Ireland so I get that. However there are States where the abuse of rights is at the core of their anti-democratic regimes and Saudi Arabia is one. A profoundly sad day. Here's the most recent Amnesty International report: https://www.amnesty.org/en/location/middle-east-and-north-africa/saudi-arabia/report-saudi-arabia/

[Nobby Reserve]

Persona non grata to me now.

[Red Beret]

Not just him. Fowler and Firmino too. It's all been going down in the former players forum.

A sad state of affairs

[KillieRed]

 It’s very, very disappointing.

I doubt he (they) need the money and they could get work in legitimate leagues too if it’s about continuing their careers.

[jillcwhomever]

Gobsmacked that one of my all time heroes ... up there with Billy Liddell (showing my age!) and Kenny has taken the tainted money of Al-Ettifaq in the Saudi Pro League. I know people will respond by commenting that there is no society where its State is untainted - I work on deaths in custody, human rights abuses etc. in the UK and Ireland so I get that. However there are States where the abuse of rights is at the core of their anti-democratic regimes and Saudi Arabia is one. A profoundly sad day. Here's the most recent Amnesty International report: https://www.amnesty.org/en/location/middle-east-and-north-africa/saudi-arabia/report-saudi-arabia/

Thanks for posting the report  Phil, was looking at it before. It beggars belief that people would choose to go there freely. It’s not as if these people don’t know what goes on in this awful state, more that they just don’t give a damn. I said in the players thread they are targeting a lot of LFC players/employees. I hope it’s not the start of a softening up process.

[Mister Flip Flop]

A nothing human being for me now. In the Fowler and Firmino boat.

[jambutty]

I know they're thinking of the future of their families and think they can modify that system with their presence but...........

the Saudis are absolute c*nts.

[Indomitable_Carp]

I know they're thinking of the future of their families and think they can modify that system with their presence but...........

the Saudis are absolute c*nts.

Honestly, I doubt the thought-process goes much beyond £££.

[thejbs]

Disappointing but not surprising. And we got irked when people called him Steven Gerrard M.B.E.. How accurate that is when you see a selfish and greedy move like this one.

[redbyrdz]

Honestly, I doubt the thought-process goes much beyond £££.

I don't think its the money in itself, its the lifestyle. Its a place where you can live very comfortably if you're rich. Its essentially what the Saudis themselves do - rich families living a privileged lifestyle, while everything in their country is being made and kept running by underprivileged workers. Often immigrants, often abused, sometimes actually enslaved. But if yiu're rich enough, it seems that it is easy to turn a blind eye and "not notice".

All the players go on holiday to these places, I don't think its too far a stretch for them to go there for work/retirement too.

[jonnypb]

Was surprised that he went to be honest, some people say it's about the money and getting set up for life etc, but how much money does one person need?  It's not like he would be short of cash and his family will already be set up for life.

It's surprising how many people turn a blind eye to things when money is involved.  If one of our existing players moved to Saudi for a huge transfer fee, how many on here would actually moan about it if that said money could then be used to strengthen our team?

When the UAE got involved with the PL it dampened my passion for the PL.  Now that Saudi and Qatar seem to be getting involved it's just going to get worse.

I don't think its the money in itself, its the lifestyle. Its a place where you can live

I know people who have moved to Dubai and Abu Dhabi and they have loved the lifestyle.  The UAE is much more geared towards the westerners lifestyle and while they still have strict rules, westerners can happily live there without worrying too much.  Saudi is a lot different and so much more strict, I wouldn't say Saudi offers the attractive lifestyle that you can see in Abu Dhabi or Dubai, far from it.

[thaddeus]

Saudi is a lot different and so much more strict, I wouldn't say Saudi offers the attractive lifestyle that you can see in Abu Dhabi or Dubai, far from it.

Presumably all the footballers will end up in little compounds where the normally brutally enforced prehistoric laws of Saudi Arabia won't be enforced at all.  They can then tell the rest of the world what a wonderful place Saudi Arabia is.

[Dim Glas]

Gobsmacked that one of my all time heroes ... up there with Billy Liddell (showing my age!) and Kenny has taken the tainted money of Al-Ettifaq in the Saudi Pro League. I know people will respond by commenting that there is no society where its State is untainted - I work on deaths in custody, human rights abuses etc. in the UK and Ireland so I get that. However there are States where the abuse of rights is at the core of their anti-democratic regimes and Saudi Arabia is one. A profoundly sad day. Here's the most recent Amnesty International report: https://www.amnesty.org/en/location/middle-east-and-north-africa/saudi-arabia/report-saudi-arabia/

Just looking at the 'Women’s and girls’ rights’ section of that is enough, yet here he is, a married man with daughters (as is Bobby Firmino of course, no idea if Fowler has daughters, but I presume he’s married) happy to take the dirty money in a land where women are classed as 2nd rate and are basically owned by men.  I get his family IF they go over, would be in some sort of bubble, not in the real world, but good grief, have at least some morals when it comes to women in Saudi.

And that of course is just a small part of the disgusting shit that he will be happily sportswashing, just so he can get even richer.

[redgriffin73]

Presumably all the footballers will end up in little compounds where the normally brutally enforced prehistoric laws of Saudi Arabia won't be enforced at all.  They can then tell the rest of the world what a wonderful place Saudi Arabia is.

I read that Gerrard's family will likely be based in Bahrain.

[Too early for flapjacks?]

Peter Santenello is a travel vlogger who did a series on Saudi Arabia a few years ago that was very interesting. Available for free on YouTube for anyone interested.

[Too early for flapjacks?]

I read that Gerrard's family will likely be based in Bahrain.

Not sure what the logic of a Bahrain base would be? Wouldn't surprise me if the families of all these managers and players going to Saudi also have bases in Dubai. A number of expats in the corporate world work in Saudi during the week because of the higher pay and spend their weekends in Dubai for the lifestyle. 2 hour flight so not a big deal.

[Elmo!]

Not sure what the logic of a Bahrain base would be? Wouldn't surprise me if the families of all these managers and players going to Saudi also have bases in Dubai. A number of expats in the corporate world work in Saudi during the week because of the higher pay and spend their weekends in Dubai for the lifestyle. 2 hour flight so not a big deal.

You can buy alcohol in Bahrain.

[Kenny's Jacket]

You can buy alcohol in Bahrain.

Yeah loads of Oilies live in Bahrain and work across the bridge in Saudi.

[Only Me]

All this "thinking of their family's future" bullshit.

These aren't fellas who've spent 25 years on minimum wage, who are then offered life changing money.

These are people in the top 0.001% of earners, who are already extraordinarily wealthy, compared to the average person.

Gerard is just another greedy unprincipled money grabbing c*nt.

Fuck him and the rest of them.

 

[So… Howard Philips]

Gobsmacked that one of my all time heroes ... up there with Billy Liddell (showing my age!) and Kenny has taken the tainted money of Al-Ettifaq in the Saudi Pro League. I know people will respond by commenting that there is no society where its State is untainted - I work on deaths in custody, human rights abuses etc. in the UK and Ireland so I get that. However there are States where the abuse of rights is at the core of their anti-democratic regimes and Saudi Arabia is one. A profoundly sad day. Here's the most recent Amnesty International report: https://www.amnesty.org/en/location/middle-east-and-north-africa/saudi-arabia/report-saudi-arabia/

Thing is Phil, as far as I know, you can work on these causes without state interference (and I know that hasn’t always been the case in NI) but at least there is a good chance that state abuses here will be aired.

I bet anyone even attempting to do what you do in Saudi would be serving a lengthy term of imprisonment.

[liverbloke]

♫ and i see your true colours shining through ♫

[Nobby Reserve]

You can buy alcohol in Bahrain.

And coke?

[jambutty]

Oooooh, this thread is getting viscous. (intended)

[rob1966]

All this "thinking of their family's future" bullshit.

These aren't fellas who've spent 25 years on minimum wage, who are then offered life changing money.

These are people in the top 0.001% of earners, who are already extraordinarily wealthy, compared to the average person.

Gerard is just another greedy unprincipled money grabbing c*nt.

Fuck him and the rest of them.

 

Exactly. A fella in his 40's, earning £30k a year getting offered say £5 - 10k a month tax free for a few years, in a job no-one is aware of, is in the situation of being able to secure a decent income for retirement, its life changing money and hard to say no to.

A fella reported to be worth £74 million and taking a job out there is just a greedy c*nt.

[John C]

Exactly. A fella in his 40's, earning £30k a year getting offered say £5 - 10k a month tax free for a few years, in a job no-one is aware of, is in the situation of being able to secure a decent income for retirement, its life changing money and hard to say no to.

A fella reported to be worth £74 million and taking a job out there is just a greedy c*nt.

Completely agree.
My daughters BF & I were talking to a woman I've known for years whose grandson plays in the Championship. His agent has said there's opportunities in Saudi. I couldn't disagree with my daughters BF (who had trials himself a few years ago) when he said the lad should go and set himself up for life because his career could end any moment.
This lad would simply go as an unknown employee. Indeed like people I know who teach over there.

Not only does SG not need the money, but his acceptance of the role as an extremely high profile person fails to condemn the human atrocities.

It might seem hypocritical because the young lad might develop in to a star over there and someone could ask well are you going to condemn the situation and walk away now you're high profile. But there has to be a balanced view point and what's best at that moment.

[B0151?]

I just don't understand why there wasn't the same level of political outrage for when China had that period of doing the same thing. Don't remember Rafa getting much criticism for taking his Chinese job at all.

[Jesse Pinkman]

I just don't understand why there wasn't the same level of political outrage for when China had that period of doing the same thing. Don't remember Rafa getting much criticism for taking his Chinese job at all.

China and Saudi are worlds apart when it comes to women's and immigrants' rights. I've a former classmate who was jailed and tortured there for being an activists for women's right to drive.

Xinjiang is a different matter altogether as is Tibet. But even with these atrocities, China is still well above Saudi I reckon. I'm not excusing the Chinese, but these are different contexts.

[Indomitable_Carp]

I just don't understand why there wasn't the same level of political outrage for when China had that period of doing the same thing. Don't remember Rafa getting much criticism for taking his Chinese job at all.

I mean I don't remember too many people on here speaking well of Rafa going to China. I didn't.

But this isn't just a matter of which regime is worse. It's a matter of, which regime is engaging in an orchestrated attempt to sportswash their image while fundementally attemtping to alter the way the entire sport is run and governed. Anyone with any dreams that perhaps the hyper-money football bubble might burst, and the sport might return at least to some extent back towards the grassroots - well fat chance of that with Middle Eastern oil money and a concerted plan to buy off the sports governance.

That's why it stings even more when a club legend like Gerrard is involved. It isn't just matter of him taking the money of a horrible and abusive regime. It's that by doing so he is knowingly killing off the remnants of the sport he grew up with, and by our extention our own club as it exists now. It's existential for the sport itself.

[Elmo!]

I just don't understand why there wasn't the same level of political outrage for when China had that period of doing the same thing. Don't remember Rafa getting much criticism for taking his Chinese job at all.

All you really need to ask yourself is, "should there be political outrage at what is happening in Saudi Arabia?" and if there should have been the same outrage about China then its a good thing that at least we seem to be learning from that.

[reddebs]

Completely agree.
My daughters BF & I were talking to a woman I've known for years whose grandson plays in the Championship. His agent has said there's opportunities in Saudi. I couldn't disagree with my daughters BF (who had trials himself a few years ago) when he said the lad should go and set himself up for life because his career could end any moment.
This lad would simply go as an unknown employee. Indeed like people I know who teach over there.

Not only does SG not need the money, but his acceptance of the role as an extremely high profile person fails to condemn the human atrocities.

It might seem hypocritical because the young lad might develop in to a star over there and someone could ask well are you going to condemn the situation and walk away now you're high profile. But there has to be a balanced view point and what's best at that moment.

Back in the late 70s/early 80s I knew of quite a few young lads going out to Saudi to work. 

Mainly in construction and some labouring on the rigs but they were raking in £30-£40k a year tax free.  That was a huge amount of money to lads in their early 20s.

They did a couple of years then bought themselves a house for cash and set themselves up in business when they came home and were set for life. 

[Snail]

[Son of Spion]

Deeply disappointing from Gerrard. I simply don't accept the 'thinking of the future of the family angle'. The man is a multi millionaire. He lives in a house that is more like a palace on the most expensive road on Merseyside. He and his family don't have to worry about bills and money ever again. They are set for life and fabulously wealthy. He's wealthy enough to be able to live by his principles too. He doesn't have to compromise in order to survive.

He won't give a monkeys, of course, but he's lost my respect.

[ChaChaMooMoo]

If its about Gerrard, shouldnt it be in the "general football" section?

[BarryCrocker]

If its about Gerrard, shouldnt it be in the "general football" section?

Possibly even in the former players forum.

[liverbloke]

Possibly even in the former players forum.

it's in the disgraced former players forum

[Yorkykopite]

All this "thinking of their family's future" bullshit.

It is.

I've always hated "my family is everything/society is nothing" which is what the 'Gerrard defence' amounts to. Apart from anything else Gerrard's family should be ok even without Saudi. They could be
gamblers and spendthrifts, professional failures, unlucky in life, or bone-idle lazy ne'er-do-wells and still be well-fed and well-upholstered for generations to come on what Stevie has earned through football.

Like Phil in the OP I have also considered Gerrard to be one of my great heroes. What a footballer. But over the years I've become accustomed to sporting heroes having feet of clay. We don't need to go through them. The list is embarrassing. Not all our champions are like that by any means, but enough to put you on your guard as a supporter.

I desperately hope the Saudi league fails like the Chinese one. For the same reason. And I couldn't care less if it brought down Gerrard (and Fowler and Firmino) with it.

[Indomitable_Carp]

If its about Gerrard, shouldnt it be in the "general football" section?

Possibly even in the former players forum.

This is about politics. That's the whole point of sportswashing. If it's in this section, it can removed from the "But he was a legend as a player" defence.

[AndyInVA]

Nothing surprises me anymore.

There seem to be so few people who are prepared to stand up for anything. Taking the money, "for my family" has become the acceptable norm. The hard news of the way the regime acts seems a long way from the Sports pages.

The only people I can think of at the moment are Rory McElroy and Jordan Speith who turned the money down, then sadly the whole of professional golf gets bought by Saudi anyway.

I just hope they can take the money and do some good with it rather than just grinning and banking it.

[BarryCrocker]

This is about politics. That's the whole point of sportswashing. If it's in this section, it can removed from the "But he was a legend as a player" defence.

So we've got discussion about Steven Gerrard and Saudi Arabia in the following threads:

> Saudi Arabia's raid of European clubs - General Football & Sport
> Re: Steven Gerrard - Former LFC Players
> Re: Stevie G and Saudi Arabia - News & Current Affairs

[stewil007]

With a few of our players/ex players going over to Saudi, is this the start of a push by Saudi to get Saudi money into our club?

Butter the fans up by using legends of the club to soften the view of them.

There will always be those against, but if it comes to a time when we are no longer competitive - could we become like Newcastle and start separating the art from the artist?

Getting Newcastle on board is a means to an end, getting LFC on board would be game-changing for the Saudi brand.

I'm probably thinking too much into it, but all of it doesn't sit right.