Topic: Spurs 4 v Liverpool 1 (Kane 3' Son 12' Salah 24' Ali 45+2’ Kane 55')

[dorsetgill]

lets hope things improve quick and we buy defender in Jan

[solidgold]

The game was lost when we are 2-0 down in 15 mins. A sudden burst of speed from the only player in that showed up raced on an put the ball in to give us a sniff of a comeback. Didn't last past half time when again poor defending let us down yet once again. At that point, I doubt anyone on pitch has the heart to fight anymore. This leaky problems really demoralised the team. Especially the front runners. No amount of comforting can get any outfield players to run at their opponents 110% knowing that they will concede and leave the team high and dry soon enough. We just need to fix the Defence.

[Groundskeeper Willie]

Secondly did we buy Keita because he was a player that would add balance or because he is ridiculously young player who is exhibiting ridiculous numbers and who could produce a record transfer profit sometime in the future.

You sit there and laugh at other posters when they try and post with some thought behind it, then you come up with that. You are worse than that guy on the Ancient Aliens show on History.

[red mongoose]

can also throw dembele in there too, also the amount pissed up the wall on stop gaps is why I’m fine with them not going for the second tier options

I don't want us going for second-rate options either, not in the slightest, but what was our second tier, our contingency plan, should VVD fall through? It doesn't seem like we had one. As Tony B. would say, it's "baffling." I apologize for saying this since it's been said a billion times in the past two months, but it's the single most important question at our club right now: why didn't we sign a passably competent CB, and what are we going to do about it moving forward? I don't really care to apportion blame, I just want to see us get it right, obviously. Pissing away 35/40m on oxen, persisting with Migs ... it's all just very confusing.

[losCHUNK]

We've talked / argued about this since before summer, the problems are pretty obvious.  I trust Klopp, the owners and everyone involved to sort it out and I just hope we can do it with the squad we have.  It's bloody painful.

[Upinsmoke]

How many games has Lovren played for us? How many has Mignolet? I can't remember two worse players who's accumulated so many games. You'd usually be out the door by now.

There the definition of bang average players, you just can't be that inconsistent and get away with it at a high profile club. Your allowed a mistake now and then but not every other week, people don't care about Jekyll and Hyde stuff when your at a smaller clubs. These are small time players.

[RedKenWah]

If Spurs had created 4 world class goals, of which there was such skillful play, clever passing etc... and we'd conceded from that then fair plays. Annoying but fair plays.

Their goals though... one from a throw in, and a simple lob into space. The second was from a goalkeeper throwing a ball, the third was a free kick, and the 4th was a corner (i can't even remember)... It says it all.

Normally i'd defend Mignolet but he had an absolutely shocking game today. The defence as a unit, it was terrible. Individually, only Moreno could hold his head high and Gomez could be forgiven. The rest... well how long do you persist, unfortunately in a way we have until January to persist with it, but after that... if it carries on then unfortunately it's game over.

And i hate to admit it, but Gary Neville effectively saying that that our defence is costing us, he's not wrong.

[Lush is the best medicine...]

I don't want us going for second-rate options either, not in the slightest, but what was our second tier, our contingency plan, should VVD fall through? It doesn't seem like we had one. As Tony B. would say, it's "baffling." I apologize for saying this since it's been said a billion times in the past two months, but it's the single most important question at our club right now: why didn't we sign a passably competent CB, and what are we going to do about it moving forward? I don't really care to apportion blame, I just want to see us get it right, obviously. Pissing away 35/40m on oxen, persisting with Migs ... it's all just very confusing.

lord knows but Roma agreed to sell manolas to zenit for £35m or so and he would be a massive upgrade on what we have (his pace alone is ridiculous), on the plus side he’s got 18 months left on his contract so should be very cheap next summer which helps with the owners, good age too.

[jckliew]

I appreciate you trying to lower the temperature in here when most of us were running extremely hot, I sincerely do, but I think the pig has enough lipstick on now. It's starting to look like a contestant at a suburban beauty pageant.

 

[dramared]

The game was lost when we are 2-0 down in 15 mins. A sudden burst of speed from the only player in that showed up raced on an put the ball in to give us a sniff of a comeback. Didn't last past half time when again poor defending let us down yet once again. At that point, I doubt anyone on pitch has the heart to fight anymore. This leaky problems really demoralised the team. Especially the front runners. No amount of comforting can get any outfield players to run at their opponents 110% knowing that they will concede and leave the team high and dry soon enough. We just need to fix the Defence.

The game by rights should have been lost at 2-0 but we got a good goal back and were on the front foot back in the game.
I thought it was over but to get back in the game at that point was really good.

And then we gave them another goal.

Ill say it once more, this team is really good. Stop gifting teams soft goals with basic individual defensive or GK errors.

[Gnurglan]

The game by rights should have been lost at 2-0 but we got a good goal back and were on the front foot back in the game.
I thought it was over but to get back in the game at that point was really good.

And then we gave them another goal.

Ill say it once more, this team is really good. Stop gifting teams soft goals with basic individual defensive or GK errors.

Yes, the problem is very much that we gift teams chances. In tennis it's called unforced errors and that's unfortunately where we deliver. If we could just cut those down to an average level, we'll see a big improvement.

[red mongoose]

I have been lauding a Monchi or Zorc for Dof for years.

The thing is you have to look at the composition of FSG and their background. They are a largely a bunch of fund managers who came together to against the odds to buy the Red Sox. John Henry cobbled together rival groups of bidders with the mantra that Baseball sides were run by emotion and that Bill James the statistician had found a numbers based way of beating the odds.

Their whole business model is about the notion that Football Clubs are run badly, as was evidenced by the emails prior to our purchase and the notion that you can break football down into stats.

The background is that LFC is Henry's project and his USP is numbers. Werner our Chairman didn't want anything to do with Liverpool and neither did large parts of FSG. Henry's reasoning was that Football was run badly and that you could numeratise Football.

It is fucking nuts for me and Football is far too complex to be reduced to stats. The thing is Henry has nowhere to go we desperately need a Monchi or Zorc but the thing is bringing them in now would be the antithesis of what Henry preached.

Al, if that horse is as dead as I think it is, you have to put a blade or a bullet through its brain. Whacking it over and over and over again isn't going to do shit.

[Lycan]

Yes, the problem is very much that we gift teams chances. In tennis it's called unforced errors and that's unfortunately where we deliver. If we could just cut those down to an average level, we'll see a big improvement.

That is not going to happen with these set of players. It's just not. They aren't going to get better. We need to get rid and bring in some players who can deal with Klopp's system and who rarely make 'unforced errors'.

[rowan_d]

That is not going to happen with these set of players. It's just not. They aren't going to get better. We need to get rid and bring in some players who can deal with Klopp's system and who rarely make 'unforced errors'.

Yep

Thinking about it, a lot of those Spurs players today were just tidy (Kane and Son exceptional imo), and that is basically their bottom level. Especially amongst their defensive unit, it gives them a platform that I'm frankly hugely jealous of. When they play poorly, they'll concede goals like anyone else, but they won't just give them away like we do.

[L8Craig]

Best just moving on quickly from this game.
Two mistakes gives them a 2-0 lead.

Spurs defensively are decent. I know they were missing a shedload of their key defensive players but still.

Salah scored a great goal from a great pass. He done really well to finish against a brilliant keeper in Lloris.

Being on the backfoot and having to get back in the game against Spurs will open you up to conceding. Even not being on the backfoot with our defensive problems we were guaranteed to give chances away.
They are clinical. Have arguably the best striker in the world right now along with Ali, Son and Eriksen.

They just looked a step above us. I've always thought that Spurs were decent but with Pochettino's high line against us knew we could score goals against them.
Yesterday, they looked every bit a title contender.

We, however, did not.

[ThePoolMan]

Yep

Thinking about it, a lot of those Spurs players today were just tidy (Kane and Son exceptional imo), and that is basically their bottom level. Especially amongst their defensive unit, it gives them a platform that I'm frankly hugely jealous of. When they play poorly, they'll concede goals like anyone else, but they won't just give them away like we do.

Spurs is a good team but we always had their measure. Until yesterday.

Best just moving on quickly from this game.
Two mistakes gives them a 2-0 lead.

Spurs defensively are decent. I know they were missing a shedload of their key defensive players but still.

Salah scored a great goal from a great pass. He done really well to finish against a brilliant keeper in Lloris.

Being on the backfoot and having to get back in the game against Spurs will open you up to conceding. Even not being on the backfoot with our defensive problems we were guaranteed to give chances away.
They are clinical. Have arguably the best striker in the world right now along with Ali, Son and Eriksen.

They just looked a step above us. I've always thought that Spurs were decent but with Pochettino's high line against us knew we could score goals against them.
Yesterday, they looked every bit a title contender.

We, however, did not.

It is not that Spurs is particularly great but we are just in defensive disarray. I feared that the team has some major fault lines running through it. If we were as strong as we thought we were, even going a man down against City should not have ended up with us getting shredded.

[GreenLaneRed27]

I have a problem with that foul because Can gave away the ball so cheaply in such a promising position. It was a lazy play by Can, and he tried to make up for it after. The free kick clearance by Matip wasn't great either, but the whole sequence of events shouldn't have happened.

I am pretty sure that Matip didn’t need to head it at all as it was drifting harmlessly out for a goal kick... this reflects two things really: 1. General panic in the back line - which was strange and unnecessary as they hardly committed any men forward in our box for this free kick 2. Lack of communication- all’s that was needed is a simple ‘let it go’ call from mignolet and we would’ve went into half time still in the game and with a different mindset ... this goal reflects a lot about our mindset and lack confidence (or abiiity) at the back.

[Lycan]

It is not that Spurs is particularly great but we are just in defensive disarray. I feared that the team has some major fault lines running through it. If we were as strong as we thought we were, even going a man down against City should not have ended up with us getting shredded.

It's because the spine of the team is pathetically weak and has been for a long, long time.

[red mongoose]

I am pretty sure that Matip didn’t need to head it at all as it was drifting harmlessly out for a goal kick... this reflects two things really: 1. General panic in the back line - which was strange and unnecessary as they hardly committed any men forward in our box for this free kick 2. Lack of communication- all’s that was needed is a simple ‘let it go’ call from mignolet and we would’ve went into half time still in the game and with a different mindset ... this goal reflects a lot about our mindset and lack confidence (or abiiity) at the back.

These are the reasons that I think it's so difficult to know what Matip's level really is and evaluate him accurately. I wouldn't be at all surprised if his inconsistencies disappear with a steadier partner next to him and a steadier, more vocal keeper behind him. But we'll have to see on that one.

[Gerry83]

We're like broken records on here - i wonder how many times we'll be on the end of a defeat talking about the same culprits over the course of the season. Frustrated.

[AlphaDelta]

There is no leaders in that team at all, nobody, not one. I've said before Henderson is weak as a captain, he's a nice guy and a reasonable footballer, but thats it. As a leader he is shocking, where was he yesterday?

I literally have no words for the defence or our goalkeeper. Seeing Klopp looking so broken yesterday was tough viewing, he's put faith in those players and this is how they've repaid him.

[rushie9]

I no longer like Klopp to call his players "boy" now... approach was kinda close buddy feel...but now makes players childish..and take up zero response

[rushie9]

There is no leaders in that team at all, nobody, not one. I've said before Henderson is weak as a captain, he's a nice guy and a reasonable footballer, but thats it. As a leader he is shocking, where was he yesterday?

I literally have no words for the defence or our goalkeeper. Seeing Klopp looking so broken yesterday was tough viewing, he's put faith in those players and this is how they've repaid him.

Henderson kinda captain is like a house captain or class leader to me... doesn't lift spirit/wake everyone up at all

[Lycan]

There is no leaders in that team at all, nobody, not one. I've said before Henderson is weak as a captain, he's a nice guy and a reasonable footballer, but thats it. As a leader he is shocking, where was he yesterday?

I literally have no words for the defence or our goalkeeper. Seeing Klopp looking so broken yesterday was tough viewing, he's put faith in those players and this is how they've repaid him.

It's something I've found strange since Klopp has arrived. You look at him as a person. What a big personality and what a strong character he has and you'd think he'd want to have players like that in his team. But he hasn't signed anybody like that. They say a team mirrors the managers personality, but this Liverpool side couldn't be any further from what he is at the moment. They're just a team of nice lads with a splattering of some very technically gifted attacking midfielders/wide forwards.

[Red Viper]

Going well this season isn't it?

[clinical]

It's because the spine of the team is pathetically weak and has been for a long, long time.

8 years ago now since we had probably the best spine in the league. Very few of them were replaced adequately.

We have spent money but they've been poor: Mignolet Lovren Joe Allen Charlie adam etc to be honest that list is much much longer.

We just don't seem to be able to pick the right players to sign. Actually think that is improving as look at Salah Mane Keita etc. But now we actually need to sign more players. If Klopp isn't learning this lesson now then we should all pack up and go home.

[Danny Boy]

Still absolutely seething after yesterday. A number of players severely let the shirt and the club down. No excuses.

[Qston]

I thought I would calm down first before posting after yesterday but actually I am struggling to. That hasn`t made much difference though. I am still mightily pissed off with yet another abject display of defending incompetence. I am at a loss as to why the club did not deal specifically with the one area where we so clearly required reinforcements and quality reinforcements at that. This really has to be addressed in January. Ironically the one positive from our defence this season has been the clear improvement in Moreno but if anything the remainder of our defence seems to have gone backwards. The club as a whole share the blame and that includes those that go out to source players, scout them, bid and negotiate for them and it must include our coaching so that points towards the manager. Klopp needs to get a grip of it.

The result did not reflect the overall balance of the sides but that was down to some appalling defensive errors. I get the argument that we are likely to be more exposed due to the way we play in terms of attacking football but even so, at least 2 of the goals were down to howlers pure and simple. That is nothing to do with being exposed. It is entirely to do with no being good enough.

If we want to take a genuine step forward we need to address the glaring problem and address it quickly.

Anyway, we move on. There is still plenty of time to put things right and start putting a run together. We are not too far off the top 4 and that must remain the minimum target.

[Danny Boy]

If Spurs had created 4 world class goals, of which there was such skillful play, clever passing etc... and we'd conceded from that then fair plays. Annoying but fair plays.

Their goals though... one from a throw in, and a simple lob into space. The second was from a goalkeeper throwing a ball, the third was a free kick, and the 4th was a corner (i can't even remember)... It says it all.

Normally i'd defend Mignolet but he had an absolutely shocking game today. The defence as a unit, it was terrible. Individually, only Moreno could hold his head high and Gomez could be forgiven. The rest... well how long do you persist, unfortunately in a way we have until January to persist with it, but after that... if it carries on then unfortunately it's game over.

And i hate to admit it, but Gary Neville effectively saying that that our defence is costing us, he's not wrong.

Absolutely spot on, every word of it.

[Lycan]

Still absolutely seething after yesterday. A number of players severely let the shirt and the club down. No excuses.

The thing is mate, these players that are continually letting the club down can't help it. They simply don't have it in them to remain focused and put in top level performances week in, week out. They just aren't good enough.

[Felch Aid]

Avoided the forums and I couldn't see or listen to the match but I didn't share everyone's optimism going into the match.

No point going over the same issues that worried me and others at the start of the season.

The defensive issues have plagued us since Rafa left with virtually no strategy or plan.

We don't have the correct balance between a midfield that can create but also defend. It does a job but that isn't good enough for the premiership. Klopp has overachieved with a lot of players but this isn't the Bundesliga where 1 team is dominant and you can pick up other great players. 5 or 6 other teams get the pick of the best players and you can coach all you want but better players will consistently get better results.

I'm not depressed but the hope has evaporated so quickly.

We could go three at the back but we've lost Lucas and haven't go the reinforcements for a defensive midfielder to protect the back 4. City don't have one but they have superior players to control the midfield which is why their results vastly differ to ours.

Sobering stuff.

[Kop307]

Are we going to do this again ?

• We didn't sign a defender, despite signing players for other positions. Which means we had money, we just shifted priorities. Not the owners call.
• Multiple statements from Klopp saying we had the money. The money we actually spent on targets like Chamberlain.

Even if there were restrictions on our spending, we did buy players, but didn't reinforce the defense. That is manager / commitee / DoF. Not FSG.

Everything stems from them.

If I own a comany, I set the tone. I employ everyone. I employ people to carry out what I want. I set budgets. I say what is, and is not acceptable. This is no different.

[-HH-]

Tried to give myself a little time to calm down.

The reason that happens with Spurs is simply that they are more ruthless when we give them the opportunity to create clear cut chances, and better finishers. Even then Mignolet should keep a couple out.

It's important that I say this because in general I felt I understood the logic in the summer. I do believe Van Dijk has a very particular skill set which is rare, and I absolutely believe that we should be getting him in if we can. I also made the assumption that if we went with a compromise option that the money would not be there for Van Dijk whenever he does become available. And I was on board (and remain on board) with the players we did sign. All good players, all improve the depth of the squad/make the first team better. No problem with any of that. And in general given that our record with Lovren/Matip in defence is good - I could see the logic of trying to front it out till January if Van Dijk is who we want and we know he wants us.

Now, it is almost impossible to feel that wasn't a mistake. In reality teams should be playing against us and thinking that if they can blunt the attack that's half the battle. In fact, teams are seeing that as the whole battle - keep our attack to 2 or less and you have a decent chance of getting something. That isn't remotely sustainable.

I was listening to the pink this morning on the way in (will finish it on the way home) and I've got to be honest some of the things that were mentioned (things I have played my part in defending) are absolutely mad. How has Simon Mignolet been our first choice keeper for 6 seasons? How is it that after the defensive failures under Rodgers that 4 out of the back 5 yesterday were there under him as well? How is it that we've spent so little on defenders and keepers since Klopp came in? These are all valid questions, valid grievances - enough to infuriate even the most patient among our support. And much as I'm excited to get Keita in (I think he helps us at both ends of the pitch) and to go after someone like Lemar, I think we very clearly need a re-allocation of funds towards the defence. Of course Jurgen can coach people and make them better but he can't fundamentally change the mentality of these players and he can't stop them making individual errors, which happen far too often and are increasing rather than decreasing. Yesterday I don't think any of their 4 goals even result in a shot if the defence is competent, and that has nothing to do with being overexposed.

Lastly, anyone who is using all this justifiable anger and frustration as a stick to beat the manager with can you please wind it in a little? Particularly anyone calling for his head. If this ends up being a poor season (and it is still too early to say that for certain) then he should be given a season to put it right. It's a really simple principle, harder in times like this to stick by but actually that's when you need backing and support. People need to stop putting 25 years frustration on Klopp's shoulders and allow him to do his job.

[Floydy]

refrained from entering yesterday, dissapointing on so many levels, we started the game like we were wearing boots made of cement, lost too many second balls. Keeper should have done better, defensively as a unit poor, kind of made them look better than what they were.

[Pistolero]

How has Simon Mignolet been our first choice keeper for 6 seasons? How is it that after the defensive failures under Rodgers that 4 out of the back 5 yesterday were there under him as well? How is it that we've spent so little on defenders and keepers since Klopp came in?

Ruin my Monday why don't you...

[mrchimps]

Squad rotation, Jesus I hate it. Play your best 11 week in week out, someone gets injured or tired change them.
Never knowing who you are playing with breeds inconsistency and silly mistakes.

[PhilV]

Getting torn apart by City after losing a man down. And now, not even having that excuse and getting thrashed by Spurs of all teams. When will we get our defence in order?

I am not defending our poor performance with this reply but the idea that Spurs are still a shit side in 2017 needs to die off, they are a very good team with a very good squad - they can beat anyone on their day and Harry Kane is proving to not be a one season wonder so this "lol beaten by Spurs" is a weird thing I've been seeing this weekend, they are as good as any other top 6 team.

[Lycan]

Squad rotation, Jesus I hate it. Play your best 11 week in week out, someone gets injured or tired change them.
Never knowing who you are playing with breeds inconsistency and silly mistakes.

See that's simply not true. Spurs rotate. As do the rest of the big 6. You don't see them make as many mistakes defensively. Arsenal are probably the only ones closest to us in that department. They're meant to be shite and yet they've conceded 4 goals less than us.

[Phil M]

Haven't read through 40 pages as that's probably not good for anyone's mental health but looking at the replay of the 2nd goal...

This has probably been done to death but anyway...

https://imgtc.com/w/mIgctbK

Pause it at the start just as Lovren misreads the header and we're on the back foot.

Look top of screen where Milner and Son are.

As Milner crosses the halfway line, he has almost a 5 yard head start on Son. Granted Son goes into full sprint mode maybe half a second before JM but still.

Let it play and watch the ground Son makes up, this is early in the game and with his head down at full pelt Milner is beaten maybe five yards after passing our semi-circle.

Not only that but Son being the only clear and present danger in terms of a goal threat barely even gets a nudge.

That's the issue with playing Milner at full back or away from home in a 3 where we have Trent/Gomez pushing on in a high line in our normal attacking set up.

He hasn't got the recovery pace to prevent a counter attack like that.

This isn't an attack on Milner, Lovren's hideous attempt at a clearance is where the problem starts. But imagine that same scenario v Arsenal, Chelsea, Utd etc.
Same outcome, someone like Rashford, Hazard / Sanchez etc also bombs through and beats us in a 1 v 1 chase on goal and puts it away.

Just one of many infuriating issues we saw on the pitch at Wembley.

[Danny Boy]

The thing is mate, these players that are continually letting the club down can't help it. They simply don't have it in them to remain focused and put in top level performances week in, week out. They just aren't good enough.

If they are not good enough (we know they aren't), that's one thing. However, the lack of focus is inexcusable and hence they've let everyone associated with LFC down. Yesterday was a real indictment of our problems at the back.