Author Topic: Mancs away 13/5 if their fans permit it  (Read 113089 times)

Offline robygerrard

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Re: Mancs away 2/5
« Reply #2720 on: May 5, 2021, 12:49:16 am »
That's something in this thread I find quite distasteful. Gandhi and BLM being brought in to what is, in the scheme of things, nothing more than a squabble over how businesses are run and by who. Of course, our football clubs matter a lot to communities and people far beyond those communities, but some making out that we need violent insurrection by football fans to force a change in business practice is simply ridiculous. The Mancs are rioting because they want their billionaire to plough even more hundreds of millions into the team or, better still, sell up so they can get a bigger, more generous billionaire in their place. I think Gandhi, BLM etc were fighting for something a bit more important myself.

As it stands today, football is obscene. It's a monumental greed-fest from top to bottom, and the vast majority of the fans buy right into all that too. Everyone wants that great new player, but he comes with a £100m price tag and wages to match. The owners are greedy. The players are greedy, the agents are greedy. The fighting in the game currently is all about factions jostling for position at the trough and trying to make their piece of the cake as big as possible. Principles are long gone. Everyone is simply fighting over the corpse of the game and hoping to pick off as much flesh as they can for themselves. The Manc fans want the same too. They simply want their club to be back to being the greediest bully on the block. There is nothing noble in all of this. It's a rampant greed-fest and it runs from top to bottom in the game as it does in life these days.

None of this is a noble fight by oppressed people. It's simply an exercise in looking after No1. It's also some rather odd romantic notion that we can get our game back almost three decades after we let it get sold from under us. It's gone, and it will never be the same again unless it collapses completely and is rebuilt from the ground up at community level once more. Once you sell your soul, you cannot grumble 29 years later and ask for it back just because the course you set out on has reached it's natural conclusion and now you don't like it.

I think Gandhi and BLM had something more substantial to stand against. All we are witnessing today is a sport awash with obscene wealth, and the unedifying sight of all manner of greedy pigs jostling to get the best position in the trough for their snouts.

Depressingly so, I think you've nailed it here. After Heysel & Hillsborough I lost my love for the game for a while but this feels somehow worse. We turned a blind eye to it in 92 & went along with all the hype & bollocks & here we are. As others have said do I really give a shit anymore.?

Offline Son of Spion*

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Re: Mancs away 2/5
« Reply #2721 on: May 5, 2021, 01:17:13 am »
Depressingly so, I think you've nailed it here. After Heysel & Hillsborough I lost my love for the game for a while but this feels somehow worse. We turned a blind eye to it in 92 & went along with all the hype & bollocks & here we are. As others have said do I really give a shit anymore.?

I'm conflicted in that I care, but I'm also past caring in many respects too.

The game as we knew it is lost. That's a fact. It won't come back either. In '92 I'm not sure we quite realised what we were letting ourselves in for, but it became apparent fairly quickly I think. Once we were on that road it snowballed and this whole process was set in motion like a juggernaut rolling downhill without brakes. Where we are now is a natural progression of what '92 started.

I think we are all unwittingly guilty too. We bought the hideously expensive kit for ourselves or our kids. We bought expensive TV packages. We buy the merchandise and the ever increasingly expensive tickets. We pay extortionate prices for poor quality refreshments in grounds. We, the fans, pumped billions into the whole thing, and when there are billions to be had, big business and crooks smell cash like a shark smells blood in the ocean. What we are left with is an awful lot of football fans just wanting their shark to be the biggest and with the most teeth. That's what we've been reduced to really. Look at the Mancs. The biggest Tory establishment club in the country. Their working class fans only really interested in making sure they are backing the biggest shark in the ocean once more. All this dressed up as a noble fight against the big guy. Honestly, it's laughable and pathetic in equal measure. Working class fanbases desperately praying that their club owners can be the biggest Tory in the league with the clout to pummel the rest into submission through financial muscle.

What really keeps me hanging on in there is my memories of what we had when it was real. That, and Klopp. I love that man. He is way ahead of his time and far too good for this game. A true, genuine human being of immense quality. I can't praise him highly enough. A beacon of light in a very dark time. At least in him I know I'm following someone/something real.
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Offline Bjornar

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Re: Mancs away 2/5
« Reply #2722 on: May 5, 2021, 02:06:36 am »
Not sure how people can shake their head about the state of modern football one second and then moan when fans actually do something about it the next.

There probably won't be a fan led movement against greed in football IMO, tribalism will make sure of that. When a fan group gets a big game called off and even that isn't an unqualified win that everyone can get behind, surely it says everything you need to know.
« Last Edit: May 5, 2021, 02:23:58 am by Bjornar »

Offline Bobinhood

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Re: Mancs away 2/5
« Reply #2723 on: May 5, 2021, 02:16:43 am »
I don't think anyone will listen mate - why would they.

All I can see happening is the magic money tree of football getting moved around from one group of rich people to another.


We're about 100 years too late to think that Footy isn't a commercial business.

Yeah, i basically agree, but if there was ever a time to take a swing its now because of the esl fiasco.  I think agents fees would provide some serious common ground to get rolling with, as opposed to musts demand for total effective control at no charge for example or similar popular but useless gtfo shouts   
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Re: Mancs away 2/5
« Reply #2724 on: May 5, 2021, 02:29:16 am »
There won't be a fan lead movement against greed in football IMO, tribalism will make sure of that. When a fan group gets a big game called off and even that isn't an unqualified win that everyone can get behind, surely it says everything you need to know.
I agree. The tribalism shown by the Mancs the other day was a massive own goal for their supposed cause of standing up for the ordinary football fan in the face of greed. Chanting ''you scouse bastards'' and ''murderers'' as well as hurling ''you scouse c*nt'' insults at Carragher, who was backing them, is just the ticket if they are looking for a cohesive fan-led movement. Their own tribalism and short-sighted, inarticulate and primitive actions saw them shoot themselves in the foot and decent football fans everywhere turning their backs on them.

Some really do need to realise that you don't get grown ups to listen to you in any serious capacity by kicking in windows and doors and attacking people like brainless, feral scumbags. You also don't get potential allies onside by insulting them.
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Re: Mancs away 2/5
« Reply #2725 on: May 5, 2021, 02:37:03 am »
he's flip flopping again, not like Al that

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Offline 12C

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Re: Mancs away 2/5
« Reply #2726 on: May 5, 2021, 06:07:36 am »
Supporters won't be able to take toilet breaks at half time and will be tested for drugs and alchohol before admission.

Legacy fans will be fine
Experience of peeing in bottles on away trips will stand them in good stead
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Re: Mancs away 2/5
« Reply #2727 on: May 5, 2021, 06:35:07 am »
Yeah.  I kind of meant that Chelsea put the game on life support, then City basically killed it. :)

And United want a heart and lungs transplant for their own team in the form of new owners.

They were even waving a banner with Glazers out Gazprom in. Ffs
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Offline jepovic

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Re: Mancs away 2/5
« Reply #2728 on: May 5, 2021, 08:28:48 am »
I'm conflicted in that I care, but I'm also past caring in many respects too.

The game as we knew it is lost. That's a fact. It won't come back either. In '92 I'm not sure we quite realised what we were letting ourselves in for, but it became apparent fairly quickly I think. Once we were on that road it snowballed and this whole process was set in motion like a juggernaut rolling downhill without brakes. Where we are now is a natural progression of what '92 started.

....
Agree with you, but the game itself is mostly the same, and that's what makes me stay. The business around it and the money are disgusting, but I was always in it for the games themselves. Football is in many ways more enjoyable to watch now than 25 years ago, with better pitches, fewer shithouse tackles, less dead time, higher pace, more attacking style. None of that is related to all the money that has entered the game, but it's been a gradual improvement of many small things. Klopp's Liverpool has played some incredible football. VAR and Covid-19 have of course hurt the game enormously the last couple of years. VAR is a huge strategic mistake, just a massive and unnecessary blow against the basic enjoyment of the game.
« Last Edit: May 5, 2021, 08:30:54 am by jepovic »

Offline Fromola

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Re: Mancs away 2/5
« Reply #2729 on: May 5, 2021, 08:43:16 am »
Depressingly so, I think you've nailed it here. After Heysel & Hillsborough I lost my love for the game for a while but this feels somehow worse. We turned a blind eye to it in 92 & went along with all the hype & bollocks & here we are. As others have said do I really give a shit anymore.?

That was the privatization of English football and the beginning of the end.

How Neville can get on his soapbox about greed while saying how wonderful Sky and the Premier League have been for English football.

What those 5 clubs did in splitting from the Football League and forming the PL (and we were one of them along with the sanctified martyrs from Walton) was in its own way as bad as what the 6 did the other week. Yeah, they didn't take away relegation, but they changed the fabric of the game. They cut off income to the lower leagues, they fucked over fans with ever increasing ticket prices to fund higher player wages and with all daft kick off times.

Football is a grubby business, there's no clean hands. I'm sick to death of the piousness from people every bit as greedy and selfish.

Could have done with Grujic and even Chirivella to tide us over this season

Offline Fromola

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Re: Mancs away 2/5
« Reply #2730 on: May 5, 2021, 08:53:05 am »
I agree. The tribalism shown by the Mancs the other day was a massive own goal for their supposed cause of standing up for the ordinary football fan in the face of greed. Chanting ''you scouse bastards'' and ''murderers'' as well as hurling ''you scouse c*nt'' insults at Carragher, who was backing them, is just the ticket if they are looking for a cohesive fan-led movement. Their own tribalism and short-sighted, inarticulate and primitive actions saw them shoot themselves in the foot and decent football fans everywhere turning their backs on them.

Some really do need to realise that you don't get grown ups to listen to you in any serious capacity by kicking in windows and doors and attacking people like brainless, feral scumbags. You also don't get potential allies onside by insulting them.

How anyone can watch the scenes from Sunday as United battling for the soul of football beggars belief. There was a huge banner there with "Glazer's Out, Gazprom In" and the scenes outside were one big singsong and party and ultimately they want to chant their anti-City/Liverpool songbook (which is most of the repertoire) while looking down on us both, not watching either/or mop up the trophies.

I think we have to factor lockdown in here as well. It was a free opportunity for a crowd to congregate on a big matchday, once it was organised. Normally they'd have all been in the pub all afternoon before the game and then got to the ground.

I'd be glad to see United fans campaign, protest or even riot against the real issues in wider football. An internal ownership beef 16 years in though while acting like they did on Sunday, i'll let the media kiss their arses instead, while we'd have had ours handed to us.
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Offline Charlie Adams fried egg

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Re: Mancs away 2/5
« Reply #2731 on: May 5, 2021, 09:06:00 am »
How anyone can watch the scenes from Sunday as United battling for the soul of football beggars belief. There was a huge banner there with "Glazer's Out, Gazprom In" and the scenes outside were one big singsong and party and ultimately they want to chant their anti-City/Liverpool songbook (which is most of the repertoire) while looking down on us both, not watching either/or mop up the trophies.

I think we have to factor lockdown in here as well. It was a free opportunity for a crowd to congregate on a big matchday, once it was organised. Normally they'd have all been in the pub all afternoon before the game and then got to the ground.

I'd be glad to see United fans campaign, protest or even riot against the real issues in wider football. An internal ownership beef 16 years in though while acting like they did on Sunday, i'll let the media kiss their arses instead, while we'd have had ours handed to us.
Led by the likes of Neville, Samuel et al, but no doubt joined by the willing tribe of media labelled "Liverpool legends" that routinely queue up to shit on the club at the first opportunity.

Offline Bergersleftpeg

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Re: Mancs away 2/5
« Reply #2732 on: May 5, 2021, 09:28:30 am »

Great and balanced post from Son of Spion. Completely a get really that the fans have to recognise we share the blame. Nobody made us pay exorbitant prices for shirts or updated FIFA games every year. Nobody forced us to subscribe to Sky.

At the same time, this is the game we love and for most of us, the only way we could follow our team was to pay Sky. It’s a disgrace that a few companies were allowed to privatise the game like this. It makes my blood boil that we can’t even watch games that are not televised though I suppose increasingly few are not.

I do think the answer is to let clubs stream games on their own sites. This would encourage sides to play good football to attract fans.

I understand that revenues need to be shared across the league too. How about clubs get to sell streams, but all advertising revenue is shared equally? So the league gets to sell the add space for the streams, but the clubs keep the £5 or whatever for the game. Let clubs set their own prices for streams too.

Offline Nick110581

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Re: Mancs away 2/5
« Reply #2733 on: May 5, 2021, 09:35:01 am »
Did the United fans protest at the City match last night ?

After all, they are in the fight with everyone else.
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Re: Mancs away 2/5
« Reply #2734 on: May 5, 2021, 09:50:38 am »
Jonathan Liew's view of the whole thing is typical of the Guardian:

"Who said wrestling back our national game from the oligarchs and private equity funds couldn’t also be a top day out with the lads?"
Beatings will continue until morale improves...

Offline Fromola

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Re: Mancs away 2/5
« Reply #2735 on: May 5, 2021, 09:54:46 am »
Jonathan Liew's view of the whole thing is typical of the Guardian:

"Who said wrestling back our national game from the oligarchs and private equity funds couldn’t also be a top day out with the lads?"

"Who said shilling for our own oligarchs couldn’t also be a top day out with the lads?"

The media will always have their back, but it's strange seeing Liverpool fans taken in the same way.
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Offline Wullie160975

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Re: Mancs away 2/5
« Reply #2736 on: May 5, 2021, 09:57:47 am »
So in this article on the BBC (How do the 'big six' rate on a new fan engagement table?), the top six are all pointed as villains, yet we are 3/4 down the list and fan activist Gary Neville is in the bottom 5 of the 91 clubs?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/56988691

https://fanengagement.net/fan-engagement-index/

Truly stunned by the hypocrisy. No, really I am.

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Re: Mancs away 2/5
« Reply #2737 on: May 5, 2021, 10:06:52 am »
At the current rate Man City will be winning the league on Saturday before this fixture is rearranged.

Offline Fromola

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Re: Mancs away 2/5
« Reply #2738 on: May 5, 2021, 10:19:03 am »
At the current rate Man City will be winning the league on Saturday before this fixture is rearranged.

At least if it motivates City to beat Chelsea on Saturday and we beat Southampton then we're back in the race with a game in hand.
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Re: Mancs away 2/5
« Reply #2739 on: May 5, 2021, 10:29:21 am »
Just seen a video of a sky reporter cornering one of the Glazers at some car park to ask him some inane questions. (The Glazer bloke looks like an absolute mutant for some reason). The reporter from Sky actually has the gall to ask him if "fans are only customers to him" without any hint of irony or self awareness.

I can't deal with this stupid shit anymore, its too much now.

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Re: Mancs away 2/5
« Reply #2740 on: May 5, 2021, 10:44:42 am »
I genuinely dont give a flying fuck about the manc agendas. They got the game postponed, give us 3 points, end of story for me.
- all in my opinion of course -

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Re: Mancs away 2/5
« Reply #2741 on: May 5, 2021, 10:45:29 am »
Just seen a video of a sky reporter cornering one of the Glazers at some car park to ask him some inane questions. (The Glazer bloke looks like an absolute mutant for some reason). The reporter from Sky actually has the gall to ask him if "fans are only customers to him" without any hint of irony or self awareness.

I can't deal with this stupid shit anymore, its too much now.

Yeah the way Sky have positioned themselves in all this has been fucking annoying me. They’ve played a massive part in getting football to where it is now, and are acting like they are completely oblivious to this.

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Re: Mancs away 2/5
« Reply #2742 on: May 5, 2021, 10:47:00 am »
Just seen a video of a sky reporter cornering one of the Glazers at some car park to ask him some inane questions. (The Glazer bloke looks like an absolute mutant for some reason). The reporter from Sky actually has the gall to ask him if "fans are only customers to him" without any hint of irony or self awareness.

I can't deal with this stupid shit anymore, its too much now.

Have the Glazers pissed off Murdoch or something? ;D

Glazer looked like an extra from Texas Chainsaw Massacre.

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Re: Mancs away 2/5
« Reply #2743 on: May 5, 2021, 10:48:52 am »
Fuck me this is depressing. It is almost as if people want the protests, the government led review and fan representation to fail, so they can wallow in self-pity. The only way this won't work is because of fan apathy.

             
One thing does need to be said: in the post-Benitez era, there was media-led clamour (but also some politicking going on at the club) to make the club more English; the idea being that the club had lost the very essence of what it means to be ‘Liverpool’. Guillem Ballague 18/11/10

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Re: Mancs away 2/5
« Reply #2744 on: May 5, 2021, 11:03:15 am »
Just seen a video of a sky reporter cornering one of the Glazers at some car park to ask him some inane questions. (The Glazer bloke looks like an absolute mutant for some reason). The reporter from Sky actually has the gall to ask him if "fans are only customers to him" without any hint of irony or self awareness.

I can't deal with this stupid shit anymore, its too much now.

Just a suggestion mate. Why not make a complaint about Sky and Ratboy basically inciting a riot on Sunday.

https://ofcomforms.secure.force.com/formentry/SitesFormCSLEStandardsComplaints
One thing does need to be said: in the post-Benitez era, there was media-led clamour (but also some politicking going on at the club) to make the club more English; the idea being that the club had lost the very essence of what it means to be ‘Liverpool’. Guillem Ballague 18/11/10

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Re: Mancs away 2/5
« Reply #2745 on: May 5, 2021, 11:59:50 am »
Fuck me this is depressing. It is almost as if people want the protests, the government led review and fan representation to fail, so they can wallow in self-pity. The only way this won't work is because of fan apathy.

I think you have to differentiate between the wider fan campaigns for sweeping changes in the football world, which pretty much everyone here supports, and the Man Utd protests on Sunday, which a lot of people don't.

And then you have Neville, Carra and Sky. It's perfectly possible to support the fan campaigns while at the same time pointing out that Sky are hypocrites, just as it was possible to oppose the ESL while pointing out that UEFA and the PL were hypocrites. Sky are in no position to campaign for "football for the people" when they are the ones who took it away from the people.

As for Utd fans, they've done nothing so far, other than postponed the game, probably to our detriment. People are right to question why they didn't do this at a European semifinal just three days earlier, sending a message to UEFA in the process as well. As it is, I saw Man Utd fans protesting Man Utd owners while Man Utd failed to secure their ground and failed to fulfil a fixture, and we are the only ones who have to deal with the consequences. If they stick to their guns and make sure Man Utd don't play a single home game for the rest of the season (or, even better, until their owners sell up), I might put tribalism aside and reconsider.

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Re: Mancs away 2/5
« Reply #2746 on: May 5, 2021, 12:08:49 pm »
You say it's a dreadful post but you were making pretty much the exact same argument as Koplass on page 77 of the BLM thread.

There's a differece between my personal opinion about what people have been driven to in the years since MLK's death and linking violence to two figures who were expressly opposed to it:

...people like Martin Luther King and Mahatma Gandhi are global icons, whilst the necessary violence that underpinned and accelerated their political movements is always ignored...

The wider civil rights movement included leaders like Malcolm X who openly advocated violent protest but say that violece 'underpinned' the philosophies of those two leaders is a gross misrepresentation.
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Re: Mancs away 2/5
« Reply #2747 on: May 5, 2021, 12:11:38 pm »
Have the Glazers pissed off Murdoch or something? ;D

Glazer looked like an extra from Texas Chainsaw Massacre.

Murdoch sold of Sky a while ago.
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Offline Bobinhood

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Re: Mancs away 2/5
« Reply #2748 on: May 5, 2021, 12:20:10 pm »
Legacy fans will be fine
Experience of peeing in bottles on away trips will stand them in good stead

Way of the road,bubs. Way of the road.

https://youtu.be/Xb0bwbcfd28?t=30
Damn that Mane's good!

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Offline Son of Spion*

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Re: Mancs away 2/5
« Reply #2749 on: May 5, 2021, 12:51:32 pm »
Agree with you, but the game itself is mostly the same, and that's what makes me stay. The business around it and the money are disgusting, but I was always in it for the games themselves. Football is in many ways more enjoyable to watch now than 25 years ago, with better pitches, fewer shithouse tackles, less dead time, higher pace, more attacking style. None of that is related to all the money that has entered the game, but it's been a gradual improvement of many small things. Klopp's Liverpool has played some incredible football. VAR and Covid-19 have of course hurt the game enormously the last couple of years. VAR is a huge strategic mistake, just a massive and unnecessary blow against the basic enjoyment of the game.
I absolutely agree with you there. I think I remember saying something similar a while back. The overall on-pitch 'product' can be, and sometimes is, amazing. The skill, the pace and the awareness of the top modern footballer is amazing. What they can do with a football is stunning. Seeing finely tuned athletes at the top of their game like that is something else.

What is killing the on-pitch side of the game is the the shambolic implementation of VAR. The appalling standard of officiating. The endless play-acting, diving and feigning injury. Also, the way media-led agendas and narratives seem to influence how games are officiated.

So, the on-field play, when left to express itself, can be a beautiful sight. It's often ruined in games, but on occasions when it's not, what is on show can still be a beautiful thing.

The majority of the rest of the football roadshow is obscene though. We all know the issues there so no point me repeating them again here.
YMB

Offline Coolie High

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Re: Mancs away 2/5
« Reply #2750 on: May 5, 2021, 12:57:42 pm »
It's a dreadful post.

Martin Luther King and Ghandi were expressly against violence.

Satyagraha, (Sanskrit and Hindi: “holding onto truth”) concept introduced in the early 20th century by Mahatma Gandhi to designate a determined but nonviolent resistance to evil. Gandhi’s satyagraha became a major tool in the Indian struggle against British imperialism and has since been adopted by protest groups in other countries.

As a theologian, Martin Luther King reflected often on his understanding of nonviolence. He described his own “pilgrimage to nonviolence” in his first book, Stride Toward Freedom, and in subsequent books and articles. “True pacifism,” or “nonviolent resistance,” King wrote, is “a courageous confrontation of evil by the power of love” (King, Stride, 80). Both “morally and practically” committed to nonviolence, King believed that “the Christian doctrine of love operating through the Gandhian method of nonviolence was one of the most potent weapons available to oppressed people in their struggle for freedom” (King, Stride, 79; Papers 5:422).

Not talking about MLK solely, talking about the civil rights movement and the others forms of action and differing methods of action that came with it, she said the necessary violence that underpinned their political movements and I agreed with that point.

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Re: Mancs away 2/5
« Reply #2751 on: May 5, 2021, 01:00:29 pm »
I think that the majority (Maybe 99%) of the rest of football probably think that the current setup is as unfair to them as we think it's unfair to us.

After all - pick pretty much any club you like across the country and without massive spending which will clearly break FFP - then they never realistically have a chance to break into the top flight or even win a cup in their existence.

If football was fairly rejigged then it would have to be done so for all clubs in all leagues otherwise you're still just favouring the 'big boys' and whether people like to admit this with their ideals - that's us. We're one of them.



Before 1992 we were still one of the 'Big Boys' and even when we dropped into lower divisions - even then compared with most of the teams across the country - we were very much still one of the 'big boys' - in the same way that Forest, although having fallen are still way ahead of many teams that could only dream of ever one day being 'A forest' or 'An Ipswich'



So if we are really going for this 'socialist idea' and it's not just some bullshit then I'd want to see something in place that basically hampered all the 'big boys' (including us) and gave more power and chance to the smaller clubs.

Imagine truly mobile leagues with truly mobile clubs actually fighting promotion and relegation every year with the shares going to every single club in every single division - the better you do - the more you are restricted and handicapped and the worse you do - the more you are enabled and helped.


That would be my vision for an actual competitive division and it would be an amazing sight to see - all clubs sharing in the wealth and all communities across the country sharing in the positives.
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Offline Charlie Adams fried egg

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Re: Mancs away 2/5
« Reply #2752 on: May 5, 2021, 01:04:25 pm »
I absolutely agree with you there. I think I remember saying something similar a while back. The overall on-pitch 'product' can be, and sometimes is, amazing. The skill, the pace and the awareness of the top modern footballer is amazing. What they can do with a football is stunning. Seeing finely tuned athletes at the top of their game like that is something else.

What is killing the on-pitch side of the game is the the shambolic implementation of VAR. The appalling standard of officiating. The endless play-acting, diving and feigning injury. Also, the way media-led agendas and narratives seem to influence how games are officiated.

So, the on-field play, when left to express itself, can be a beautiful sight. It's often ruined in games, but on occasions when it's not, what is on show can still be a beautiful thing.

The majority of the rest of the football roadshow is obscene though. We all know the issues there so no point me repeating them again here.

That paragraph sums up exactly how I feel.

As you say, the product itself is fantastic, it's unbeatable unscripted drama. The problems arose when they tried to create a script.
TV coverage is perverse because they pay a fortune for the rights, then they devalue the product wit their witless coverage.

Offline Son of Spion*

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Re: Mancs away 2/5
« Reply #2753 on: May 5, 2021, 01:04:49 pm »
Yeah the way Sky have positioned themselves in all this has been fucking annoying me. They’ve played a massive part in getting football to where it is now, and are acting like they are completely oblivious to this.
They probably are totally oblivious to it too. The lot of them seem to lack any real sense of awareness. Sky are a massive part of the problem, yet are totally blind to the fact. Neville is a massive part of the problem, yet sees himself as some sort of saviour whilst whipping up yet more controversy and unrest.

We've seen multi millionaires like him and Carragher cheer leading and condoning rioting, criminal damage and assault live on air. Sky Sports are a shock-jock, tabloid TV channel that thrives on controversy. They lap this stuff up like pigs rolling in shit. They don't care about the game itself. That's just their cash cow. Their exploitable resource. They milk the game when it's played and milk the controversy when it's not. Odious shits, the lot of them.
YMB

Offline Al 666

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Re: Mancs away 2/5
« Reply #2754 on: May 5, 2021, 01:07:09 pm »
I think you have to differentiate between the wider fan campaigns for sweeping changes in the football world, which pretty much everyone here supports, and the Man Utd protests on Sunday, which a lot of people don't.

And then you have Neville, Carra and Sky. It's perfectly possible to support the fan campaigns while at the same time pointing out that Sky are hypocrites, just as it was possible to oppose the ESL while pointing out that UEFA and the PL were hypocrites. Sky are in no position to campaign for "football for the people" when they are the ones who took it away from the people.

As for Utd fans, they've done nothing so far, other than postponed the game, probably to our detriment. People are right to question why they didn't do this at a European semifinal just three days earlier, sending a message to UEFA in the process as well. As it is, I saw Man Utd fans protesting Man Utd owners while Man Utd failed to secure their ground and failed to fulfil a fixture, and we are the only ones who have to deal with the consequences. If they stick to their guns and make sure Man Utd don't play a single home game for the rest of the season (or, even better, until their owners sell up), I might put tribalism aside and reconsider.

I don't have a problem with people differentiating between the hypocrisy of Sky and their brain-dead shock jocks who spout garbage just to get views and as you say have laughably portrayed themselves as working class heroes.

Neither do I have a problem with people calling out the brain-dead United fans attacking the Police and singing vile songs.

The bit I find depressing is the negativity around the general movement, and it's successes. For years, we have been told that there is nothing we can do as fans. Well Liverpool fans have already forced a U-turn over ticket prices. Forced the Club to abandon plans to furlough staff.

Fans sticking together forced a u-turn over PBP. Then when the ESL was announced people lined up to say it was a foregone conclusion. The contracts were signed and there was no way the ESL clubs would back down. Instead of fans accepting it the ESL was killed off within days.

When the ESL was stopped the negative people said that would be it. That people would be happy and the Status quo would continue. Instead of that a game was forced to be postponed, FSG have met SOS and Chelsea have agreed to fans at board meetings. The same negative people who said fan representation at board meetings would never happen are now saying that no good will come of it.

The way I see it if people power can bring down the Berlin Wall or create the Arab spring then sorting out the future of our game should be a walk in the park.
One thing does need to be said: in the post-Benitez era, there was media-led clamour (but also some politicking going on at the club) to make the club more English; the idea being that the club had lost the very essence of what it means to be ‘Liverpool’. Guillem Ballague 18/11/10

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Re: Mancs away 2/5
« Reply #2755 on: May 5, 2021, 01:18:04 pm »
Fuck me this is depressing. It is almost as if people want the protests, the government led review and fan representation to fail, so they can wallow in self-pity. The only way this won't work is because of fan apathy.

           


And the only reason you've started acting like the manc head of pr is due to your unhealthy hatred of Henry and Co.

And anybody who questions it have been brainwashed right ?
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Re: Mancs away 2/5
« Reply #2756 on: May 5, 2021, 01:19:05 pm »
They probably are totally oblivious to it too. The lot of them seem to lack any real sense of awareness. Sky are a massive part of the problem, yet are totally blind to the fact. Neville is a massive part of the problem, yet sees himself as some sort of saviour whilst whipping up yet more controversy and unrest.

We've seen multi millionaires like him and Carragher cheer leading and condoning rioting, criminal damage and assault live on air. Sky Sports are a shock-jock, tabloid TV channel that thrives on controversy. They lap this stuff up like pigs rolling in shit. They don't care about the game itself. That's just their cash cow. Their exploitable resource. They milk the game when it's played and milk the controversy when it's not. Odious shits, the lot of them.

Neville is a hypocrite.
Look at his ownership of Salford. No money doping there? Gives managers time?
I bet the rest of the league loves Gary’s Corinthian beliefs.
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Re: Mancs away 2/5
« Reply #2757 on: May 5, 2021, 01:22:04 pm »
The bit I find depressing is the negativity around the general movement, and it's successes.

I don't see much of that, to be honest. Apart from a few who actively supported the ESL idea and presumably oppose fan involvement on ideological grounds, everyone else seems to be supportive of the movement.

I think most of the debate here is about how what Utd fans did on Sunday fits into that movement, if at all. If the goal is to send a message that games won't be played unless they're played on our terms, then getting the game abandoned is quite a result. But if that game is then played on a different day, on the same TV channels with the same audience (probably even larger with many tuning in to see if there'll be more trouble), then the protest won't have achieved much at all.

Offline Son of Spion*

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Re: Mancs away 2/5
« Reply #2758 on: May 5, 2021, 01:22:56 pm »
Fuck me this is depressing. It is almost as if people want the protests, the government led review and fan representation to fail, so they can wallow in self-pity. The only way this won't work is because of fan apathy.

           
That's not the case, Al.

The shambolic 'protests' we saw at OT are the kind of thing that set genuine causes back and see reasonable people turning their backs on them.

I think we, as adults, can distance ourselves from the brainless, inarticulate rabble and still get behind genuine, grown-up rather than pissed-up, adults in fan groups who actually have something meaningful and cohesive to say rather than " Glazers out, Gazprom in" and "you Scouse bastards."

The rabble represented no one but themselves, and most had highly conflicting reasons for even being there at all.

Fan representation, government reviews? Of course we all want them things to bear fruit. No sane football fan wants those to come to nothing. Recreational violence and destruction from a confused and conflicted rabble, though. No, they can fuck right off.

Edit:

When fans act like brainless gobshites, they lose all credibility and so does their argument (if they even had a cohesive argument anyway). You don't listen to a kid having a tantrum. You might pacify it, but you won't actually listen to it. Acting like a pissed up rabble can often mean the baby gets flushed away with the bath water. Sane, cool and rational heads will be the ones who achieve any real change, not spoiled, drunken and entitled dickheads like we saw the other day.
« Last Edit: May 5, 2021, 01:34:59 pm by Son of Spion* »
YMB

Offline Al 666

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Re: Mancs away 2/5
« Reply #2759 on: May 5, 2021, 01:39:08 pm »

And the only reason you've started acting like the manc head of pr is due to your unhealthy hatred of Henry and Co.

And anybody who questions it have been brainwashed right ?

Except I have stated quite clearly that the idiots who broke into the Stadium, the idiots who attacked the Police and the idiots shouting vile abuse should have the book well and truly thrown at them.

Like SOS I agree with what MUST have been saying though and want all fan groups to come together with the FSA and FSE to get a fan led review of the game.

We need to stop arguing amongst ourselves and stop the whataboutism and talk of hypocrisy and push for reform and proper regulation.

As for FSG I have always said they have been decent owners and like SOS members I want them to come together with SOS and become even stronger.
One thing does need to be said: in the post-Benitez era, there was media-led clamour (but also some politicking going on at the club) to make the club more English; the idea being that the club had lost the very essence of what it means to be ‘Liverpool’. Guillem Ballague 18/11/10