Author Topic: COVID-19: General Stuff. VERIFIED news sources, 0 politishit, 0 CONSPIRACY SHITE  (Read 807969 times)

Offline Welshred

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No, no thatís not the alternative, there has to be other ways that better minds than mine can come up with.

But are you telling that if the R rate goes back up to what it was and we have another 4 months like the last, another lockdown and another 40,000 deaths in this country alone because people arenít socially distancing, that itís all worth it?

Better minds haven't been able to come up with it which is why 57 years after Martin Luther Kings "I have a dream" speech black people are still fighting for an equal position in society.

To say that an extra 40,000 people are going to die because of these protests is also stretching it a hell of a lot as well.

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Offline filopastry

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I can certainly understand the anger that has led people to protest and in an ideal world everyone would be socially distancing, but I'm sure many won't be.

If nothing else at least it is outside which will reduce the level of transmission.

To be honest I'm struggling to get too excited about breach of rules anyway, lets be honest the lockdown has been falling apart now since around VE day, worsened by the phenomenally unclear guidance on this phase of restrictions, and finally by Cummings and the govt taking the piss out of everyone who has made sacrifices over the last few months, its a pleasant surprise when you meet people who are still taking it seriously at the moment.

Offline 24∗7

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Yup, nobody has an issue with people over here protesting, itís doing it in manner that will make a pandemic worse
Which isn't everywhere. Just in some places. And yes those people should be having a look at what they're doing - then again, there's a sense of desperation in some communities, a palpable "damned if we do damned if we don't so we may as well do" if you like.

Can anyone blame them for that?

Centuries of oppression......
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Offline Layer 2

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Better minds haven't been able to come up with it which is why 57 years after Martin Luther Kings "I have a dream" speech black people are still fighting for an equal position in society.

To say that an extra 40,000 people are going to die because of these protests is also stretching it a hell of a lot as well.

*Any form of mass gathering where social distance isnít being maintained.

I don't think itís a stretch at all to say who knows how many deaths could result from the virus getting out of hand again through social distancing rules not being respected.

Offline Lush is the best medicine...

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Which isn't everywhere. Just in some places. And yes those people should be having a look at what they're doing - then again, there's a sense of desperation in some communities, a palpable "damned if we do damned if we don't so we may as well do" if you like.

Can anyone blame them for that?

Centuries of oppression......
can I blame people whoíve been on the end of it, no, which is why Iím more sympathetic to the people in the states at the protests, but this is a time where in places like manc where I live the R rate is above 1 and there was a pretty large demonstration today where people were tightly packed for large parts there comes a point where doing such tightly packed marches isnít a great idea, and btw there have been BLM related marches in manc before so itís not a one off thing, at least for manc

Offline Speedy Molby

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no Iím saying that amount of data itís based on is far too small to draw definitive conclusions from, 163 over a decade is an absolutely tiny sample size, and of course not all of them are as a result of police brutality as some of them are more than justified (Sudesh Amman and Usman Khan are two) and others clearly werenít (Dalian Atkinson, Rashan Charles)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_killings_by_law_enforcement_officers_in_the_United_Kingdom
Yup, nobody has an issue with people over here protesting, itís doing it in manner that will make a pandemic worse
Don't want to derail the thread, but does the 163 include the 96 who died in 1989 but were not recorded as being unlawfully killed by the police until 2016?
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Offline Lush is the best medicine...

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Don't want to derail the thread, but does the 163 include the 96 who died in 1989 but were not recorded as being unlawfully killed by the police until 2016?
no

Offline FlashGordon

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Which isn't everywhere. Just in some places. And yes those people should be having a look at what they're doing - then again, there's a sense of desperation in some communities, a palpable "damned if we do damned if we don't so we may as well do" if you like.

Can anyone blame them for that?

Centuries of oppression......


Exactly, I'm not sure how people don't get this. Hey stop protesting about this plight your people have suffered for hundreds of years. We have our own plight going on at the moment so yours will have to take a back seat for now (again).
So bloody what? If you watch football to be absolutely miserable then go watch cricket.

Offline Dr. Beaker

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Looks like it's all gone bandy on Whitehall.
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Offline Layer 2

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Exactly, I'm not sure how people don't get this. Hey stop protesting about this plight your people have suffered for hundreds of years. We have our own plight going on at the moment so yours will have to take a back seat for now (again).

The virus is everyoneís plight. Why canít everyone be respectful towards everyoneís wellbeing, whatever the reason.

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and btw there have been BLM related marches in manc before so itís not a one off thing, at least for manc
That's true enough - and there have been marches and protests against racism in many countries for decades yet here we are in 2020 and the situation doesn't appear to be getting any better - quite the opposite!
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Offline 24∗7

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Looks like it's all gone bandy on Whitehall.
What's that?
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Offline FlashGordon

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The virus is everyoneís plight. Why canít everyone be respectful towards everyoneís wellbeing, whatever the reason.

Yeah exactly, it's just another plight to add to the one black or brown people have been fighting for nearly 500 years. You can't begrudge them for protesting. Look at the response coronavirus elicited in you, it's something you want to fight against, it's something you want to eradicate. Well black and brown people have been fighting a similar virus for nigh on 500 years, I'll forgive them if they feel the need to protest against it, I'll go further than that and join them in solidarity.

Eradicating racism should be everyone's plight.
So bloody what? If you watch football to be absolutely miserable then go watch cricket.

Offline Classycara

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Exactly, I'm not sure how people don't get this. Hey stop protesting about this plight your people have suffered for hundreds of years. We have our own plight going on at the moment so yours will have to take a back seat for now (again).

Isn't that quite needlessly reductive. Not all protesters are black. Not all people concerned about covid risks posed by the mass gathering are not black. It's just people, not race blocs.

I've yet to see anyone on RAWK express anything other than concern for the health consequences of the contacts of people attending non-socially distant protests. Something we all collectively share, I'm sure: a will that we can all keep as healthy as possible during this pandemic (and in non-pandemic times)

Offline J_Kopite

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Yeah, but they've basically just let the government off the hook was the point. They can set the narrative that mass protests with social distancing ignored were strongly warned against for spreading the virus and they didn't listen.

And I'm afraid they'd have a point.

Offline Dr. Beaker

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What's that?
Riot police etc. Saw a riderless police horse legging all over the place. There was mayhem by Downing Street.f
« Last Edit: June 6, 2020, 06:31:05 PM by Dr. Beaker »
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Offline FlashGordon

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Isn't that quite needlessly reductive. Not all protesters are black. Not all people concerned about covid risks posed by the mass gathering are not black. It's just people, not race blocs.

I've yet to see anyone on RAWK express anything other than concern for the health consequences of the contacts of people attending non-socially distant protests. Something we all collectively share, I'm sure: a will that we can all keep as healthy as possible during this pandemic (and in non-pandemic times)

Yeah fair enough I see your concerns. I'm not going to condemn people for protesting though, whatever their skin colour. You don't get to decide what is more important to people.

The people aren't out on the streets for some big happy piss up, I'm sure they would love to not have to be out protesting.
So bloody what? If you watch football to be absolutely miserable then go watch cricket.

Offline FlashGordon

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And I'm afraid they'd have a point.

They could just say they were checking their eyesight.
So bloody what? If you watch football to be absolutely miserable then go watch cricket.

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Have protests started in any other major UK cities yet?

Offline Layer 2

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Yeah fair enough I see your concerns. I'm not going to condemn people for protesting though, whatever their skin colour. You don't get to decide what is more important to people.

The people aren't out on the streets for some big happy piss up, I'm sure they would love to not have to be out protesting.

Which would be fine if these people were going to self isolate for 14 days after the protests. But how many will? I bet not many because, instead they will be spreading the virus to innocent people, people who are neither racist or wish harm on others. But that doesnít matter, fuck them their only strangers, their lives have no consequence.

I see both sides, and yes racism or any sort of bigotry or inequality should be everyoneís fight, but not at the very high risk to innocent lives.

Anyway Iíve said my point of view, we do all have good intentions on here.

Online S

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Which would be fine if these people were going to self isolate for 14 days after the protests. But how many will? I bet not many because, instead they will be spreading the virus to innocent people, people who are neither racist or wish harm on others. But that doesnít matter, fuck them their only strangers, their lives have no consequence.

I see both sides, and yes racism or any sort of bigotry or inequality should be everyoneís fight, but not at the very high risk to innocent lives.

Anyway Iíve said my point of view, we do all have good intentions on here.
Yeah, that last note is important I feel. I genuinely havenít come across anyone on RAWK who I would consider even remotely racist. Itís just inevitable that opinions are going to differ given the timing of these protests.

Online Hedley Lamarr

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Have protests started in any other major UK cities yet?
One due in Bristol tomorrow, you know, that place in the South West where the R number is hovering around 1. 

Offline rushyman

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These marches could very well end up killing multiple people

Of all colours

Itís like if you say this or say anything about how dangerous these marches are your a racist

I completely fucking resent that.
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Offline filopastry

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Sunday Times reporting that the mood in government has very much changed towards saving jobs and the economy rather than "following the science".

We will see how sustainable that is if the R starts rising significantly above 1.

Offline Fordy

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Sunday Times reporting that the mood in government has very much changed towards saving jobs and the economy rather than "following the science".

We will see how sustainable that is if the R starts rising significantly above 1.

Doubt any going back now.

Businesses need to start opening, hospitality urgently needs to get go and offices have to open.

No vaccine, no cure in sight. The government have messed up from the start but now the economy needs to kick start.

Offline djahern

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Sunday Times reporting that the mood in government has very much changed towards saving jobs and the economy rather than "following the science".

We will see how sustainable that is if the R starts rising significantly above 1.

Was always inevitable really and probably not just for the UK. I guess an interesting question is has the the mood in the public changed towards saving jobs and the economy rather than "following the science"? Maybe not yet, but it's inching in that direction I think - but me thinking that is only coming from limited discussions with friends and acquaintances, there seems to be a gradual move in that direction taking place.

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Sunday Times reporting that the mood in government has very much changed towards saving jobs and the economy rather than "following the science".

We will see how sustainable that is if the R starts rising significantly above 1.

So no proper track and trace till September at least, but easing lockdown a few months before its properly in place?

I don't know the data, but for people on the Furlough, will there be sufficient demand that they have a job to go back too?

Mass redundancies for Christmas, not controlling this virus and then end of Brexit transition for New Year. I'm I being too pessimistic and over dramatic?
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Sunday Times reporting that the mood in government has very much changed towards saving jobs and the economy rather than "following the science".

We will see how sustainable that is if the R starts rising significantly above 1.
So we've gone from Follow the science to Follow the money.
Mind you that sounds about right for a corrupt incompetent government.
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Offline BarryCrocker

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Was always inevitable really and probably not just for the UK. I guess an interesting question is has the the mood in the public changed towards saving jobs and the economy rather than "following the science"? Maybe not yet, but it's inching in that direction I think - but me thinking that is only coming from limited discussions with friends and acquaintances, there seems to be a gradual move in that direction taking place.

Sounds like the whole climate change argument is being replicated.
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Offline Shankly998

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Sounds like the whole climate change argument is being replicated.

Not really there's universal agreement that the costs associated with tackling climate change are far far less than the costs would be of doing nothing. It's not the same situation with Covid-19 there is definitely a point where the medicine becomes worse than the disease is, when that is, is the million dollar question of course.

Offline filopastry

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So no proper track and trace till September at least, but easing lockdown a few months before its properly in place?

I don't know the data, but for people on the Furlough, will there be sufficient demand that they have a job to go back too?

Mass redundancies for Christmas, not controlling this virus and then end of Brexit transition for New Year. I'm I being too pessimistic and over dramatic?


Also pushing to get the social distancing limit down to 1m from 2m, but UK scientists not apparently playing ball so far.

Want to get seasonal businesses open for summer or they fear they will go under.

Trying to negotiate travel corridors with popular holiday destinations so that the whole self imposed quarantine issue is sidestepped.

Current timeline on some loosening is reported as Beer gardens -Late June, Holidays - June 28, Theme parks - July 4, Weddings - before Mid-Jul

« Last Edit: June 7, 2020, 02:12:29 AM by filopastry »

Offline BarryCrocker

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Not really there's universal agreement that the costs associated with tackling climate change are far far less than the costs would be of doing nothing. It's not the same situation with Covid-19 there is definitely a point where the medicine becomes worse than the disease is, when that is, is the million dollar question of course.

So we don't listen to the scientists in both cases.
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Offline Shankly998

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So we don't listen to the scientists in both cases.

They have listened to the scientists in both cases maybe you don't like the actions they've taken but they have listened. They can offer advice about what the best steps are to lessen the death toll from Covid but there may be a point where you have to disregard the advice if the result will be more deaths as a result of a destroyed economy.

Offline Shankly998

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So we don't listen to the scientists in both cases.

They have listened to the scientists in both cases maybe you don't like the actions they've taken but they have listened. They can offer advice about what the best steps are to lessen the death toll from Covid but there may be a point where you have to disregard the advice if the result will be more deaths as a result of a destroyed economy.

Offline Zeb

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This links into a couple of the major news themes, as well as concerns at local government level about what comes next and adequate funding to mitigate.

Quote
The wider health literature suggests that people from lower socioeconomic backgrounds are less resilient to shocks such as ill-health, experiencing greater financial burden, and hardship. This suggests there is likely to be a social gradient in these experiences during COVID-19, but so far there has been limited empirical investigation of inequalities in experience of adversity during the pandemic. Nevertheless, these experiences of burden and hardship are vital to understand as studies of previous epidemics have found a relationship between experience of adversity and psychological consequences including post-traumatic stress and depression. This echoes wider literature on the strong relationship between adversities relating to finances, basic needs, and ill-health, and poor mental and physical health outcomes.

Therefore, this study explored the changing patterns of adversity relating to the COVID-19 pandemic by socioeconomic position (SEP) during the first few weeks of lockdown in the UK. We focused on three types of adversity: (1) financial stressors (loss of work, partnerís loss of work, cut in household income or inability to pay bills), (2) challenges relating to basic needs (including food, medications and accommodation) and (3) experience of the virus itself (including contracting the virus, a close person being hospitalised and a close person dying). We sought to explore the nature of the relationship between SEP and (1) number of adversities experienced, (2) type of adversity experienced, and (3) how the relationship evolved over the first 3 weeks of lockdown.

Quote
When exploring the patterns for each type of adversity individually, there was a clear social gradient across all financial measures and across factors relating to basic needs. People of lower SEP were 1.5 times more likely to experience loss of work compared with people of higher SEP, and their partners were twice as likely to experience loss of work. They were also 7.2 times more likely to be unable to pay bills in week 1 (rising to 8.7 times more likely by week 3), 4.1 times more likely to be unable to access sufficient food in week 1 (rising to 4.9 times more likely be week 3) and 2.5 times more likely to be unable to access required medication. However, there was little evidence of a gradient in experiences directly relating to the virus, with no significant differences between groups. In comparing the change in experience of each specific adversity over time by SEP, the inequalities present in each individual adversity were maintained each week, with no evidence of improvement over time.

Good news is that a lot of this can be mitigated if it's recognised. eg It shouldn't be that hard to get the number of people worrying about feeding themselves and their family right down to negligeable.

Quote
Even if these initial financial shocks are reduced over time as schemes come into effect and as more measures are taken, they are still concerning, given the well-researched link between experience of adversities and poor mental health outcomes, poor physical health outcomes and suicides. In planning ahead for anticipated upcoming stages in the fallout from the pandemic, such as a possible future recession, this suggests that more steps need to be taken urgently to reduce further adverse effects for individuals of lower SEP before further negative effects occur.

https://jech.bmj.com/content/early/2020/06/04/jech-2020-214475.full

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Offline djahern

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Sounds like the whole climate change argument is being replicated.

It does a bit

Offline djahern

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This links into a couple of the major news themes, as well as concerns at local government level about what comes next and adequate funding to mitigate.

Good news is that a lot of this can be mitigated if it's recognised. eg It shouldn't be that hard to get the number of people worrying about feeding themselves and their family right down to negligeable.

https://jech.bmj.com/content/early/2020/06/04/jech-2020-214475.full



Looks interesting that paper. I'll read that tomorrow and not tonight after too many whiskeys.

Online oldfordie

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They have listened to the scientists in both cases maybe you don't like the actions they've taken but they have listened. They can offer advice about what the best steps are to lessen the death toll from Covid but there may be a point where you have to disregard the advice if the result will be more deaths as a result of a destroyed economy.
No idea how you would know if our government did listen to the scientists.
We scientists said lock down. But UK politicians refused to listen
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/apr/15/uk-government-coronavirus-science-who-advice
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Offline djahern

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No idea how you would know if our government did listen to the scientists.
We scientists said lock down. But UK politicians refused to listen
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/apr/15/uk-government-coronavirus-science-who-advice

April 15th that was, bit sobering to read it. Still too late, as a scientist I locked down my folks in mid Feb, they haven't hugged their grandkids since then, they haven't left the house bar hospital appointment. It was clear as day this was coming, the only question was how fast.

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April 15th that was, bit sobering to read it. Still too late, as a scientist I locked down my folks in mid Feb, they haven't hugged their grandkids since then, they haven't left the house bar hospital appointment. It was clear as day this was coming, the only question was how fast.
March 17th was the last time i went out to shop. went to Asda at 7pm to avoid walking through a  crowded shop,am not sure if i had heard the expression "social distancing" back then, all i knew was keep away from people if you can.
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