Author Topic: Taking back control and getting Brexit done.  (Read 56983 times)

Offline CheshireDave

  • quite apt, as he's from Gloucestershire and his name's Norman
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 17,872
Re: Taking back control and getting Brexit done.
« Reply #680 on: February 19, 2020, 11:05:46 am »
Free pick your own farms, as crops rot in the fields because no one is available to pick them...

They'll be nothing to pick if this weather doesn't improve!

I wonder if that evil bitch Patel's parents would have met this new visa criteria when her parents migrated to the UK?!
Fuckin' 'Ell It's Fred Titmus

Offline KillieRed

  • Jaro a.k.a. goatjumpingqueuefucker
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 8,251
  • Nemo me impune lacessit.
Re: Taking back control and getting Brexit done.
« Reply #681 on: February 19, 2020, 11:07:15 am »
This points based system is just mad.

There won’t be anyone to do many jobs...

Nursing homes, care assistants... so many jobs that no one has really thought about..


Employment is really high... so what are we actually going to gain?

The obvious answer is the likes of people that Channel 5 and the Daily Mail have been demonising for years, simultaneously distracting from the much larger problem of tax evasion by big corporations and the mega rich. "Benefit Scroungers" will be made to work for their money at below the current minimum wage in all likelihood.
The best way to scare a Tory is to read and get rich” - Idles.

Offline Zeb

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 18,571
  • Justice.
Re: Taking back control and getting Brexit done.
« Reply #682 on: February 19, 2020, 11:19:04 am »
Well the first candidates to pick crops in Lincolnshire will be those laid off by Nissan so......

I suppose if it was a vote for better public transport around Sunderland then it's a roundabout but effective way of ensuring more investment in the East Coast mainline... beyond electing a Tory MP keen to get back to London... >_>
"And the voices of the standing Kop still whispering in the wind will salute the wee Scots redman and he will still walk on.
And your money will have bought you nothing."

Offline The Gulleysucker

  • RAWK's very own spinached up Popeye. Transfer Board Veteran 5 Stars.
  • RAWK Remembers
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 11,496
  • An Indolent Sybarite
Re: Taking back control and getting Brexit done.
« Reply #683 on: February 19, 2020, 11:32:25 am »
They'll be nothing to pick if this weather doesn't improve!

The fields around here in Mid Devon are certainly absolutely sodden and totally saturated and have been for several weeks now, and there's no sign of it improving.

I went for a walk over the hills to our water wheel yesterday and large areas of the fields has been churned into a thick glutinous clingy mud by the sheep, who obviously now need feeding rather than being able to graze on what's left of the grass. The farmer is close to despair, he says he's never known a winter quite so wet.

This years lambing which is about to start is going to be a rather expensive enterprise unless conditions improve and quite soon.
I don't do polite so fuck yoursalf with your stupid accusations...

Right you fuckwit I will show you why you are talking out of your fat arse...

Mutton Geoff (Obviously a real nice guy)

Offline Jiminy Cricket

  • Batshit fucker and Chief Yuletide Porcine Voyeur
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 10,043
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Taking back control and getting Brexit done.
« Reply #684 on: February 19, 2020, 11:38:56 am »
This points based system is just mad.

There won’t be anyone to do many jobs...

Nursing homes, care assistants... so many jobs that no one has really thought about..

Employment is really high... so what are we actually going to gain?
Not to discount your wider points (and points of other posters), but for how long will this be the case? There will be all those car workers looking for work for a start. Though, I can't imagine they will be too happy about seasonal fruit picking and wiping the arses of the elderly.
would rather have a wank wearing a barb wire glove
If you're chasing thrills, try a bit of auto-asphyxiation with a poppers-soaked orange in your gob.

Offline Jiminy Cricket

  • Batshit fucker and Chief Yuletide Porcine Voyeur
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 10,043
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Taking back control and getting Brexit done.
« Reply #685 on: February 19, 2020, 11:40:24 am »
Free pick your own farms, as crops rot in the fields because no one is available to pick them...
Re: my last comment. Yeah, even seasonal picking jobs might go pretty sharpish if there is no realistic plan to protect British agriculture. And, it is looking that way.
would rather have a wank wearing a barb wire glove
If you're chasing thrills, try a bit of auto-asphyxiation with a poppers-soaked orange in your gob.

Offline Jiminy Cricket

  • Batshit fucker and Chief Yuletide Porcine Voyeur
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 10,043
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Taking back control and getting Brexit done.
« Reply #686 on: February 19, 2020, 11:43:25 am »
From what Patel said this morning about '8 million economically inactive' sounds like we're back to the idea of sending the disabled, the early retired, and students out to do it...
Sounds about right. But, they will have to compete with former car workers and those involved in its supply chain. I think there will be no shortage of people to do the work. Although there will be shortage or workers in the short-term, I can see that changing rather rapidly for the non-skilled care jobs. 'Taking back control' will be glorious.
would rather have a wank wearing a barb wire glove
If you're chasing thrills, try a bit of auto-asphyxiation with a poppers-soaked orange in your gob.

Offline Jiminy Cricket

  • Batshit fucker and Chief Yuletide Porcine Voyeur
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 10,043
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Taking back control and getting Brexit done.
« Reply #687 on: February 19, 2020, 11:43:59 am »
Well the first candidates to pick crops in Lincolnshire will be those laid off by Nissan so......
I see you beat me to it. ;)
would rather have a wank wearing a barb wire glove
If you're chasing thrills, try a bit of auto-asphyxiation with a poppers-soaked orange in your gob.

Offline ToneLa

  • you know the rules but I make the game.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 9,827
  • I AM FURIOUS, RED (STILL)
Re: Taking back control and getting Brexit done.
« Reply #688 on: February 19, 2020, 11:45:25 am »
I honestly can see them drumming up another Work Program on Universal Credit (eg. working for your benefit, or, in real terms, working for FREE, think my "Hourly rate" when I was on it was 72p / hour!) to do all the roles poor immigrants typically do.

Pick fruit in a field for your benefit! Sanctioned if you eat a strawberry on the job. They could get around minimum wage with the Work Program (eek, hope I'm not giving em ideas)

Offline Jiminy Cricket

  • Batshit fucker and Chief Yuletide Porcine Voyeur
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 10,043
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Taking back control and getting Brexit done.
« Reply #689 on: February 19, 2020, 11:47:44 am »
I honestly can see them drumming up another Work Program on Universal Credit (eg. working for your benefit, or, in real terms, working for FREE, think my "Hourly rate" when I was on it was 72p / hour!) to do all the roles poor immigrants typically do.

Pick fruit in a field for your benefit! Sanctioned if you eat a strawberry on the job. They could get around minimum wage with the Work Program (eek, hope I'm not giving em ideas)
This has been discussed before. I believe I described such systems as somewhat akin to slavery, as the individual has no real choice but to comply.
would rather have a wank wearing a barb wire glove
If you're chasing thrills, try a bit of auto-asphyxiation with a poppers-soaked orange in your gob.

Offline surfer. Fuck you generator.

  • surgood. As good as Suarez but CBA to play for us. Takes it on the chin and never holds a pointless grudge for several months.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 14,218
Re: Taking back control and getting Brexit done.
« Reply #690 on: February 19, 2020, 11:48:25 am »
They'll be nothing to pick if this weather doesn't improve!

I wonder if that evil bitch Patel's parents would have met this new visa criteria when her parents migrated to the UK?!

Was thinking the same earlier.  Touched on this errr phenomenon months ago on one of the brexit related threads,  but human quality,  ultimately,  is a choice regardless of how much access you have to direct information / experiences isn't it. 

Offline Jiminy Cricket

  • Batshit fucker and Chief Yuletide Porcine Voyeur
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 10,043
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Taking back control and getting Brexit done.
« Reply #691 on: February 19, 2020, 11:52:33 am »
This has been discussed before. I believe I described such systems as somewhat akin to slavery, as the individual has no real choice but to comply.
Just to add my slightly more considered thoughts on this matter:

https://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=323694.msg14825281#msg14825281

Not that I expect anyone is particularly interested. :)
would rather have a wank wearing a barb wire glove
If you're chasing thrills, try a bit of auto-asphyxiation with a poppers-soaked orange in your gob.

Offline Gerry Attrick

  • Sancho's dad. Tight-arse, non-jackpot-sharing get :)
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 49,527
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Taking back control and getting Brexit done.
« Reply #692 on: February 19, 2020, 11:57:57 am »
The people that can come to this country are the people that are so skilled they can go almost anywhere they want. Britain probably isn't going to be at the top of many people's lists anymore.

Offline ToneLa

  • you know the rules but I make the game.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 9,827
  • I AM FURIOUS, RED (STILL)
Re: Taking back control and getting Brexit done.
« Reply #693 on: February 19, 2020, 12:07:49 pm »
This has been discussed before. I believe I described such systems as somewhat akin to slavery, as the individual has no real choice but to comply.

Aye, well good on you - spot on! I might have discussed it before myself - when I was on UC, they mooted a work program at one point. I saw red and hassled my MP, and got in contact with a few different support groups - Scotland seemed to have had a few Workfare programs that resulted in protests (funny how they never trial these things in Oxford. And I bet the Covent Garden Jobcentre isn't packed!) so I was definitely not alone at least.

I used the term "Slavery" myself around then. The thing about employment figures as well - it's quality, not quantity. Probably preaching to the choir here  :)

So that's why I am wary of Brexit. We are closing the doors to people who, let's face it, sometimes do the jobs most of us wouldn't. For a pittance. Who do we think is going to end up doing them? Us, marooned on this island...

But also, some jobs we CAN'T make up for. I am not a plumber, and I am no doctor. (And I bet if the government source any jobs via the DWP or otherwise, it won't be of a "proper trade"/career quality). Of course, their doors are closed if you "don't have the right qualifications" or "Speak fluent English", so I bet they let in their perceived "elite".

Rankles a bit, the direction I expect it all to go in. Especially when you think of people like Ehug Sheleg, the unelected, Israel-born (not arsed about that bit to be honest) Treasurer for the Tories who wields a fair bit of power. Welcome in - if you're wealthy, in other words; if you're educated and rich, this land is YOURS.

Yuck.

Edit: that post of yours you linked to is boss mate, you totally understand. Thank God for people like you
« Last Edit: February 19, 2020, 12:18:35 pm by ToneLa »

Offline Bobsackamano

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,501
Re: Taking back control and getting Brexit done.
« Reply #694 on: February 19, 2020, 12:14:10 pm »
Just to add my slightly more considered thoughts on this matter:

https://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=323694.msg14825281#msg14825281

Not that I expect anyone is particularly interested. :)

Brilliant post, this idea that some people are deserving of proper paid work and some people are not needs to be confronted when it rears its ugly head. Historically its always been the right that has pushed these vile schemes however sadly im seeing a tendancy for some on the left to view people at the bottom of the economic pile as useless. Not because of the same hard (and stupid) economic reasoning of the right but because of a condecending paternalistic attitude.

If Labour are going to oppose these new immigration measures they need to be bloody careful how they do it. The Tories will sell this as a way for upskilling the UK workforce and business will have to suck it up and invest in training people. Labour should attack this from a high level economic standpoint and avoid at all costs any statements that imply people who havent got a job are not capable of being productive workers. Cos theres many out there who can and should be in employment who cant find work.

Online rob1966

  • YORKIE bar-munching, hedgehog-squashing (well-)articulated road-hog-litter-bug. Sleeping With The Enemy. Has felt the wind and shed his anger..... did you know I drive a Jag? Cucking funt!
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 46,807
Re: Taking back control and getting Brexit done.
« Reply #695 on: February 19, 2020, 12:20:30 pm »
They'll be nothing to pick if this weather doesn't improve!

I wonder if that evil bitch Patel's parents would have met this new visa criteria when her parents migrated to the UK?!

A huge amount of crops went to waste last harvest - I remember reading a report on a farmer who used to recruit decent workers from Bulgaria - surprise surprise the English won't do it - but they refused to come, so all she was left with was either people who didn't speak a word of English or those who were lazy as fuck, she said she just couldn't take them on and the crop went to waste.
Jurgen, you made us laugh, you made us cry, you made Liverpool a bastion of invincibilty, now leave us on a high - YNWA

Offline ToneLa

  • you know the rules but I make the game.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 9,827
  • I AM FURIOUS, RED (STILL)
Re: Taking back control and getting Brexit done.
« Reply #696 on: February 19, 2020, 12:25:34 pm »
Frightening stat in the Politico London Playbook newsletter today:

Quote
The Home Office insists that without a route for low-skilled workers, overall migration will fall from current levels. The change means around 70 percent of the existing EU workforce in Britain would be unable to come to the U.K. in future.

Not everyone is stupid though:

Quote
Confederation of British Industry boss Carolyn Fairbairn said firms in some sectors “will be left wondering how they will recruit the people needed to run their businesses.”

British Chambers of Commerce boss Adam Marshall said companies “will still need access to overseas workers at all skill levels.”

Kate Nicholls, the chief executive of U.K. Hospitality, said: “Ruling out a temporary, low-skilled route for migration in just 10 months’ time will be disastrous for the hospitality sector and the British people.”

And the Home Office just don't get this concern:

Quote
The Home Office response? Businesses will simply have to “adapt and adjust.” The policy paper suggests employers in low-skilled sectors invest in staff retention, productivity, technology and automation. A bullish Whitehall source told the Daily Mail: “Businesses are going to have to invest in workforces. There is an unemployment pool in the U.K. If they are not able to attract people they are going to have to look at automation or improve conditions.”

Offline Bobsackamano

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,501
Re: Taking back control and getting Brexit done.
« Reply #697 on: February 19, 2020, 12:30:01 pm »
A huge amount of crops went to waste last harvest - I remember reading a report on a farmer who used to recruit decent workers from Bulgaria - surprise surprise the English won't do it - but they refused to come, so all she was left with was either people who didn't speak a word of English or those who were lazy as fuck, she said she just couldn't take them on and the crop went to waste.

Maybe the farmer could up the wages she's paying to get better staff or invest in her systems to boost the productivity of the workers she employs. She critisizes UK workers for being lazy as fuck?? Maybe it is she who is lazy as fuck and incompetent at her job.

Offline Jiminy Cricket

  • Batshit fucker and Chief Yuletide Porcine Voyeur
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 10,043
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Taking back control and getting Brexit done.
« Reply #698 on: February 19, 2020, 12:35:08 pm »
Edit: that post of yours you linked to is boss mate, you totally understand. Thank God for people like you
Brilliant post
Well, thank you both for your comments. I actually only read it through again after I posted my link. I found myself quite appreciative of it too! :D I had forgotten the detail of what I had written there. I guess I'll include a copy here, but corrected for a few small typos I spotted. Otherwise, it is unedited.

Originally posted here:

https://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=323694.msg14825281#msg14825281

Err....no. The problem with your line of reasoning is two-fold.

Firstly, if the job is worth doing (and cleaning public spaces, for the benefit of the public is, surely, a worthwhile job and work), the person doing the work should be paid for their labour. I probably need to explain this further for you to understand*... There are a myriad of jobs carried out by civil servants for the benefit of the community as a whole. The reason we have civil servants is because if we did not, the service would not be provided, or it would sub-standard, or unavailable to/for all. Or, perhaps, we should not pay any civil servants (that would be, at least, consistent); how do you think that would work out? Of course you probably would not argue that position (I hope not). In which case, why do you feel that the people carrying out more 'menial' tasks are undeserving of a wage for their civil service labours?

Secondly, the reasoning behind workfare schemes become circular. If this 'meaningful' work is for the benefit of us all, but we fail to properly recompense for it (through our taxes) by providing a proper wage and proper employment rights (which I am sure you are happy to receive and enjoy) and the work is, however, completed (by 'undeserving menials'), what incentive is there for society to change policy so that these workers (they are workers) are paid properly and provided with the same statutory rights as other workers? If more work is carried out 'menial workfare' workers, there is less 'real' work to go around too. There becomes even less chance of escaping this trap.

Your first error was to differentiate between private and public sector work. Your second error - resulting from the first - was to suppose that some people are less deserving of a living wage for the work they do for the benefit of us all, nor be entitled to the same statutory rights as the rest of us.

If someone is compelled to work, but without the same statutory rights as others in society (for little more than food and a roof over their head), what is the functional difference between this and slavery? And don't go down the route of 'no whips and no chains' - if there is realistically nothing to run away to, they are, indeed, 'chained'.

* If you find my comments patronizing, I suggest that you think about your attitude to those compelled to do such work (for your and my benefit), without appropriate recompense and due respect.
would rather have a wank wearing a barb wire glove
If you're chasing thrills, try a bit of auto-asphyxiation with a poppers-soaked orange in your gob.

Offline Zeb

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 18,571
  • Justice.
Re: Taking back control and getting Brexit done.
« Reply #699 on: February 19, 2020, 12:46:58 pm »
Frightening stat in the Politico London Playbook newsletter today:

Not everyone is stupid though:

And the Home Office just don't get this concern:


Can see government arguing that they'll quietly make exemptions 'where needed' once they're done on the anti-immigration headlines. Flipside to it all is how the government is going to be able to respond in time to shortages. Short of nurses now? Great if they refund bursaries but that's a medium and long term solution at best, and requires them to also address retaining staff in the NHS, so how's it helping before people qualify? It's like the dissonance around Brexiteers pointing over to NI and saying 'Look how great what we've done there is' without that next step on of asking 'If it's so great, why don't we all have the same?'.
"And the voices of the standing Kop still whispering in the wind will salute the wee Scots redman and he will still walk on.
And your money will have bought you nothing."

Offline SP

  • Thor ain't got shit on this dude! Alpheus. SPoogle. The Equusfluminis Of RAWK. Straight in at the deep end with a tube of Vagisil. Needs to get a half-life. Needs a damned good de-frag.
  • RAWK Staff.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 36,042
  • .
  • Super Title: Southern Pansy
Re: Taking back control and getting Brexit done.
« Reply #700 on: February 19, 2020, 12:50:10 pm »
Can see government arguing that they'll quietly make exemptions 'where needed' once they're done on the anti-immigration headlines. Flipside to it all is how the government is going to be able to respond in time to shortages. Short of nurses now? Great if they refund bursaries but that's a medium and long term solution at best, and requires them to also address retaining staff in the NHS, so how's it helping before people qualify? It's like the dissonance around Brexiteers pointing over to NI and saying 'Look how great what we've done there is' without that next step on of asking 'If it's so great, why don't we all have the same?'.

Make exemptions for the people who donate to the Tory party? You can see an awful lot of graft in a system with that much discretion.

Offline Zeb

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 18,571
  • Justice.
Re: Taking back control and getting Brexit done.
« Reply #701 on: February 19, 2020, 01:00:12 pm »
Make exemptions for the people who donate to the Tory party? You can see an awful lot of graft in a system with that much discretion.

Just doublechecked that it does include the proposed 'shortage industries' exemptions (or point boosting). Stephen Bush did a piece on how the (currently proposed) system would be open to a government to manipulate regularly just for approving headlines in the press - beyond needing to do it regularly just to match needs in the economy. Hadn't thought of the implications with who'd be chipping in to the next Tory election campaign.
"And the voices of the standing Kop still whispering in the wind will salute the wee Scots redman and he will still walk on.
And your money will have bought you nothing."

Offline Andy @ Allerton!

  • Missing an asterisk - no, wait sorry, that's his rusty starfish..... RAWK Apple fanboy. Hedley Lamarr's bestest mate. Has done nothing incredible ever.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 73,672
  • Asterisks baby!
Re: Taking back control and getting Brexit done.
« Reply #702 on: February 19, 2020, 01:22:05 pm »
The Conservative Party are just bringing back slavery to the UK.

Rees-Mogg was the only one honest to admit that Work Houses were always part of the plan.

Unemployed people will be working 15 hour days, 7 days a week in fields until they 'get a job'

Except that jobs will be fewer - more slaves for the Party.


Except you can imagine that people being used for slave labour are likely to be pretty unproductive. Then if they are having to live near a farm to do the work, they'll probably have to pay for their transport. They probably would then need to stay somewhere - so they'd have to pay for their accomodation. I'd imagine they'd want to eat as well, so they'd have to pay for their food as well.

Then you'd need someone to supervise them, so more cost.

They probably haven't thought this through. You can't see it being pretty.
Quote from: tubby on Today at 12:45:53 pm

They both went in high, that's factually correct, both tried to play the ball at height.  Doku with his foot, Mac Allister with his chest.

Online rob1966

  • YORKIE bar-munching, hedgehog-squashing (well-)articulated road-hog-litter-bug. Sleeping With The Enemy. Has felt the wind and shed his anger..... did you know I drive a Jag? Cucking funt!
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 46,807
Re: Taking back control and getting Brexit done.
« Reply #703 on: February 19, 2020, 01:23:34 pm »
Maybe the farmer could up the wages she's paying to get better staff or invest in her systems to boost the productivity of the workers she employs. She critisizes UK workers for being lazy as fuck?? Maybe it is she who is lazy as fuck and incompetent at her job.

From what I remember the wages were decent, but people don't want to so the work, as it is too hard.

One student said he could earn £3000 for 6 weeks work doing 6 days a week.
Jurgen, you made us laugh, you made us cry, you made Liverpool a bastion of invincibilty, now leave us on a high - YNWA

Offline Bobsackamano

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,501
Re: Taking back control and getting Brexit done.
« Reply #704 on: February 19, 2020, 01:41:27 pm »
From what I remember the wages were decent, but people don't want to so the work, as it is too hard.

One student said he could earn £3000 for 6 weeks work doing 6 days a week.

£3k over 6 weeks. £500 per week. 6 day week, 8 hr day equals just over £10 per hour. Not exactly what id call decent wages for a hard graft job.

Ive done my time in the fields and its tough but doable for physically able people. It does take time for newbies to get up to speed and some wont like it and others will just not be physically capable.

However these businesspeople/farmers are just going to have to suck it up and take reduced profits for a while and maybe lob 10p on the price of a bag of spuds.

Training and recruiting is an effort for business, its in there own interests to do the shock horror of "what are we going to do now we cant get a labourforce thats willing to work for peanuts and live in shitty conditions".

I have many reservations about this new immigration policy but the whining of rich farmers and business owners aint one of them. They can start doing their jobs better.

Offline Robinred

  • Wanted for burglary.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 13,748
  • Red since '64
Re: Taking back control and getting Brexit done.
« Reply #705 on: February 19, 2020, 01:46:58 pm »
Talking of farming, Alexander McCall Smith had the following published in today’s iPaper and The Scotsman: (Can’t think who he has in mind)

The inhabitants of George Orwell’s Animal Farm are facing new problems, according to an addendum to the famous book that may or may not have been unearthed by Alexander McCall Smith.

George Orwell wrote Animal Farm during the Second World War. It was unambiguously aimed at the Soviet Union and its excesses, and this made it difficult for Orwell to find a publisher – Stalin was, after all, the West’s wartime ally, and people still liked Uncle Joe. When it was eventually published in 1945, though, it rapidly became one of the great allegories of 20th-century literature. And it has not dated: Animal Farm contains perennial truths about the exercise of power.

Perennial truths … What if we were to discover that when Orwell was at Barnhill on Jura, writing his other great political novel, 1984, he was also composing an addendum to Animal Farm? What if this manuscript were to turn up at a farm displenishing sale near Oban, in an old leather trunk marked with the initials E.B. – Orwell’s real initials? And what if this manuscript, mildewed but still legible, were to be bought for £15 (the cost of the trunk), transcribed and then published? Or if only part of it were to be published, because by extraordinary co-incidence certain paragraphs seem to speak to us with particular immediacy – as in this excerpt below:

“The first four words are illegible, but are probably:
[One of the goats] addressed the gathering of animals. He was more eloquent than the others – a billy goat of elegant appearance but with eyes that were suggestive of wisdom. He had seen a great deal, or at least enough to know the pitfalls that the animals faced in creating the sort of society in which they might be at ease.

The goat said: “Well, my dears, we have had the election now, and we have chosen our leader. Or that is what we think we have done – there are those who say that the real leader is not the leader we have chosen, who has been anointed, but one who stands behind him.”

The animals shifted uneasily. The hens looked at one another in confusion; the sheep huddled together, as they always did when they feared bad news. Some of the animals had difficulty in understanding what he meant by this – after all, they had seen the leader on the steps of the farmhouse, waving to those who had congregated there. That was the leader, was it not? What was this talk of another who could not be seen, or who was only spotted scurrying in and out of the farmhouse? What did the goat mean by that? Have we missed something? they asked themselves.

The goat continued, “There is, you see, one behind the leader. He is the one who is making many of the decisions as to what will be done. He is the one whose bidding is often done by the elected leader, who is a jovial animal who likes the company of the farmyard. And many in the farmyard do like him. This other one does not care so much about such things.”

“Now the important thing,” the goat went on, “is the one behind was not elected by any of us. He may have many talents and merits – I do not wish to be unfair to him, for I am sure that he has his useful ideas. But he does not have to answer to us or to the farmyard council that we chose when we went to cast our votes. They are the ones who have the moral authority to speak for us but today it seems they may yield to another.”

Some of the animals looked shocked. “Even the horses?” one of the pigs asked. “I thought that everyone respected the independence of the horses.”


“Not everyone,” said the goat. “And even the horses can be made to toe the line.”

The goat looked out over the assembled animals. His tone was grave now – the tone of one who is mourning the loss of something. “We have always believed that power in the farmyard should be exercised by animals whom we have chosen. It is a simple thing to make a mark on a piece of paper and say, Yes, this is the animal who may lead us. It is a simple thing, yes, but a vital thing. And nobody…” and here the goat’s voice became grave, “… and nobody who has not been chosen in that way should take it upon himself to try to run the farmyard. He may suggest how to run the farmyard, but he should not be the one who makes the decisions.”

This brought nods of agreement from most of the animals present.

Then one of the ducks asked, “How is it done? Why do other animals allow it?”

“Because they are concerned they will be put out of their stalls. They have to eat, you see.”

The listening animals were silent now. Not a grunt nor snort, not a clucking nor a crowing, nor any sound could be heard in the farmyard. All listened intently as the goat spoke, and his words hung in the crisp air like a great warning sign.

“All animals deserve courteous, considerate treatment, even those who are just farmyard assistants,” said the goat. “If we disagree with other animals we do not dismiss their views as being of no importance. We do not discourage them so that they will not speak what is in their minds.”

The goat was quiet for a moment before he delivered his final oration. “Dear fellow animals, throughout the world those who notice these things are saddened by the decline of the civility that animals used to show one another. Kindness and courtesy are everywhere diminished. A certain unkindness claims the stage in farmyards and barns not only here, but everywhere you look. Rudeness to others has become the coin of our public transactions. That is what has happened, my fellow animals; that is what has happened.”

The animals looked at one another. They looked at one another for reassurance. They sighed.”

And that is where Orwell stopped. I closed the trunk. I thought: how strange that he should speak to us in this way after more than 70 years. But Orwell’s writing is like that: it resonates.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2020, 01:51:40 pm by Robinred »
"The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology...as long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth." Mikhail Bakunin

Online TepidT2O

  • Deffo NOT 9"! MUFC bedwetter. Grass. Folically-challenged, God-piece-wearing, monkey-rubber. Jizz aroma expert. Operating at the lower end of the distribution curve...has the hots for Alan. Bastard. Fearless in transfer windows with lack of convicti
  • Lead Matchday Commentator
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 94,258
  • Dejan Lovren fan club member #1
Re: Taking back control and getting Brexit done.
« Reply #706 on: February 19, 2020, 02:50:17 pm »
Not to discount your wider points (and points of other posters), but for how long will this be the case? There will be all those car workers looking for work for a start. Though, I can't imagine they will be too happy about seasonal fruit picking and wiping the arses of the elderly.
Yes, how long?
“Happiness can be found in the darkest of times, if one only remembers to turn on the light.”
“Generosity always pays off. Generosity in your effort, in your work, in your kindness, in the way you look after people and take care of people. In the long run, if you are generous with a heart, and with humanity, it always pays off.”
W

Offline SP

  • Thor ain't got shit on this dude! Alpheus. SPoogle. The Equusfluminis Of RAWK. Straight in at the deep end with a tube of Vagisil. Needs to get a half-life. Needs a damned good de-frag.
  • RAWK Staff.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 36,042
  • .
  • Super Title: Southern Pansy
Re: Taking back control and getting Brexit done.
« Reply #707 on: February 19, 2020, 02:52:58 pm »
From what I remember the wages were decent, but people don't want to so the work, as it is too hard.

One student said he could earn £3000 for 6 weeks work doing 6 days a week.

It is full time for a limited time. If you are working 6 days a week, you do not have time to find something to start immediately when you finish. Add in the time to search afterwards, and it gets even less attractive money.  Burger flipping is probably a better package overall - and it is not seasonal...

Offline Jiminy Cricket

  • Batshit fucker and Chief Yuletide Porcine Voyeur
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 10,043
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Taking back control and getting Brexit done.
« Reply #708 on: February 19, 2020, 03:20:52 pm »
Yes, how long?
Well, the car workers was just an example of workers who lose their jobs. I expect there will be droves of redundancies and business closures in other sectors before it occurs in the car industry. I anticipate huge job losses within months. Certainly, when the writing is on the wall, we should expect businesses to lay of people very early in anticipation of a downturn they expect to been very deep and very protracted. Hanging on to workers for longer than necessary would be another unnecessary burden. Yeah, I am pessimistic about the future for the UK.
would rather have a wank wearing a barb wire glove
If you're chasing thrills, try a bit of auto-asphyxiation with a poppers-soaked orange in your gob.

Online TSC

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 25,483
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Taking back control and getting Brexit done.
« Reply #709 on: February 19, 2020, 03:27:12 pm »
The people that can come to this country are the people that are so skilled they can go almost anywhere they want. Britain probably isn't going to be at the top of many people's lists anymore.

There was a story earlier this month about a load of migrants caught trying to escape the UK and madness of Brexit.  Based on that tighter immigration rules are not needed if folk are trying to escape.

Online TepidT2O

  • Deffo NOT 9"! MUFC bedwetter. Grass. Folically-challenged, God-piece-wearing, monkey-rubber. Jizz aroma expert. Operating at the lower end of the distribution curve...has the hots for Alan. Bastard. Fearless in transfer windows with lack of convicti
  • Lead Matchday Commentator
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 94,258
  • Dejan Lovren fan club member #1
Re: Taking back control and getting Brexit done.
« Reply #710 on: February 19, 2020, 03:27:29 pm »
Well, the car workers was just an example of workers who lose their jobs. I expect there will be droves of redundancies and business closures in other sectors before it occurs in the car industry. I anticipate huge job losses within months. Certainly, when the writing is on the wall, we should expect businesses to lay of people very early in anticipation of a downturn they expect to been very deep and very protracted. Hanging on to workers for longer than necessary would be another unnecessary burden. Yeah, I am pessimistic about the future for the UK.
Hard not to be isn’t it?
“Happiness can be found in the darkest of times, if one only remembers to turn on the light.”
“Generosity always pays off. Generosity in your effort, in your work, in your kindness, in the way you look after people and take care of people. In the long run, if you are generous with a heart, and with humanity, it always pays off.”
W

Offline Jiminy Cricket

  • Batshit fucker and Chief Yuletide Porcine Voyeur
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 10,043
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Taking back control and getting Brexit done.
« Reply #711 on: February 19, 2020, 03:36:49 pm »
Hard not to be isn’t it?
The only silver lining is that the fallout from Brexit will be massive wake-up call to the Little-Englanders who voted for this shit. Or, at least I hope it will be. I am no longer sure of anything concerning human nature (or, British nature at least). Maybe the UK is now like the US, in that no matter how shit things actually pan out with President Trump, the GOP and 40% plus of the population will continue to queue up and ask for more turds on their dinner plate.
would rather have a wank wearing a barb wire glove
If you're chasing thrills, try a bit of auto-asphyxiation with a poppers-soaked orange in your gob.

Online rob1966

  • YORKIE bar-munching, hedgehog-squashing (well-)articulated road-hog-litter-bug. Sleeping With The Enemy. Has felt the wind and shed his anger..... did you know I drive a Jag? Cucking funt!
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 46,807
Re: Taking back control and getting Brexit done.
« Reply #712 on: February 19, 2020, 04:11:01 pm »
It is full time for a limited time. If you are working 6 days a week, you do not have time to find something to start immediately when you finish. Add in the time to search afterwards, and it gets even less attractive money.  Burger flipping is probably a better package overall - and it is not seasonal...

And that is why we needed the migrants - why work in the fields when you can work in maccies?
Jurgen, you made us laugh, you made us cry, you made Liverpool a bastion of invincibilty, now leave us on a high - YNWA

Offline cloggypop

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,308
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Taking back control and getting Brexit done.
« Reply #713 on: February 19, 2020, 04:27:12 pm »
There's also the fact that if you want to go and pick strawberries you'll earn a lot more doing it in Denmark than Norfolk. Plus you won't be in Norfolk.

Offline Sudden Death Draft Loser

  • old and annoying
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 9,483
Re: Taking back control and getting Brexit done.
« Reply #714 on: February 19, 2020, 04:31:05 pm »
The farmer is close to despair, he says he's never known a winter quite so wet.


Not really the right topic, but this will only get worse
"The greatest argument against democracy is to have a five minute conversation  with the average voter. "

Offline fowlermagic

  • Ilittarate
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 13,550
Re: Taking back control and getting Brexit done.
« Reply #715 on: February 19, 2020, 05:03:29 pm »
From what I remember the wages were decent, but people don't want to so the work, as it is too hard.

One student said he could earn £3000 for 6 weeks work doing 6 days a week.

Students are more than likely go picking crops in Australia as they backpack for the summer before they ever go down to the local farm and do the same. Yes the farmer should pay them more but so should we for the produce at the local shop. The way things are going thats gong to happen anyway as the cost of living continues to spiral upwards.
I have a simple philosophy: Fill what's empty. Empty what's full. Scratch where it itches. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zi5-V75v-6I

Offline killer-heels

  • Hates everyone and everything. Including YOU! Negativity not just for Christmas. Thinks 'irony' means 'metallic'......
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 76,597
Re: Taking back control and getting Brexit done.
« Reply #716 on: February 19, 2020, 05:22:45 pm »
Frightening stat in the Politico London Playbook newsletter today:

Not everyone is stupid though:

And the Home Office just don't get this concern:


The CBI and many of the firms can fuck off. During the referendum they did very little to influence its staff when it came to voting for Brexit. They only gave a shit about themselves because they didnt want to take sides and they didnt care about their precious supply chains or their staff then.

Well now they are crying about something that was apparent from 2016. No tears shed here now for their woes.

Offline ShakaHislop

  • Shocktrooper of the Vinny Cable Nasties
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 7,790
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Taking back control and getting Brexit done.
« Reply #717 on: February 19, 2020, 06:23:21 pm »
From a few years ago but also from the mind of a prominent Tory Brexiteer

Top Tory's heartless plan to put pensioners to work picking fruit

21:15, 13 MAR 2016 UPDATED 10:14, 14 MAR 2016

Quote
Owen Paterson stunned even hard nosed Tories with his ­heartless plan to make pensioners do gruelling crop picking on the cheap, David Laws revealed.

The Environment Secretary proposed his barmy idea to stunned Cabinet colleagues as a way of cutting eastern European immigration .

Mr Paterson suggested exploiting the elderly by plucking them out of retirement to pick crops for less than the minimum wage.

He told a Cabinet meeting he planned to scrap a scheme that allowed EU migrants to come to the UK to do ­unpopular jobs in the fields.

When a colleague suggested the move would be unpopular with farmers, who would no longer find it easy to employ cheap labour for the back-breaking work, defiant Mr Paterson replied: “Oh, but I’ve thought of that, I think I have the answer.

“We’ll try to get more British pensioners picking some of the fruit and vegetables in the fields instead.

“Of course, getting pensioners to do this work could lead to an increase in farmers’ costs. After all, they may be a bit slower doing the work. I’ve thought of that too.

“We might arrange to exempt British pensioners from the minimum-wage laws, to allow them to do this work.”

Former Liberal ­Democrat Mr Laws, who revealed the astonishing proposals in a new book, wrote: “Cabinet colleagues, even the more right-wing Tories, listened in stunned silence.” And one Whitehall official “tried, unsuccessfully, to stifle a laugh”.

Quote
Mr Laws exposed Mr Paterson’s 2013 plot in his memoirs Coalition: The Inside Story Of The Conservative-Liberal Democrat Coalition, which is being serialised in a Sunday newspaper.

He made the suggestion at a meeting that was being chaired by then Lib Dem leader Nick Clegg, who helped him write the book that lifts the lid on five years as the Tory party’s unlikely bedfellows.

At the time, David Cameron was worried the influx of eastern ­Europeans would make it harder to get ­immigration down to the “tens of ­thousands” ­promised by the Tories.

But Mr Paterson branded Mr Laws’ account as “completely wrong”.

He said: “There is a very good scheme called the Seasonal Agricultural Workers Scheme which is wrongly described for a start in the Laws piece, which brought in a very targeted number, 20,250, ­Romanians and Bulgarians, before they were opened up to unlimited access and it worked really well.

“They came to targeted spots, had proper accommodation and good catering but they went back at the end of the season and I was very keen to keep it on.

“We looked at all sorts of options of how we could substitute them once there was open season from the 1st January 2014, right, so the story was wrong.

"There might be other stories that are wrong in that long, long piece.”

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/top-torys-heartless-plan-put-7551536

Offline Andy @ Allerton!

  • Missing an asterisk - no, wait sorry, that's his rusty starfish..... RAWK Apple fanboy. Hedley Lamarr's bestest mate. Has done nothing incredible ever.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 73,672
  • Asterisks baby!
Re: Taking back control and getting Brexit done.
« Reply #718 on: February 20, 2020, 11:13:39 am »
If the predictions on food availability if Brexit fucks up are correct then this line from history is something to think about

"Every society is three meals away from anarchy"


-- It seems clear that many items that the UK eat may not be available in future. Additionally, a lot of these items are healthy and good for you. Additionally, a lot of items are likely to appear with misinformation on the packaging and active ingredients that are problematic. For instance chlorine-washed chicken and meat from animals that are being force-fed corn.

I wonder what the effect will be when some sources of food are unavailable (Or to be fair, more likely to be just much more expensive)

Again, this (to me) plays into the Tory idea of 'Us and Them' - in "The good old days" - the poor couldn't afford luxery foods and many starved. We are there right now with food banks - but that's just the basics.

You can just imagine some Brexiters having a party and people gooing "Oooh! I went to the Smiths the other day and do you know what?! They had tinned tangerines!! Imagine that!"
Quote from: tubby on Today at 12:45:53 pm

They both went in high, that's factually correct, both tried to play the ball at height.  Doku with his foot, Mac Allister with his chest.

Offline 12C

  • aka 54F
  • Campaigns
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 13,693
  • “The Ribbons are Red”
Re: Taking back control and getting Brexit done.
« Reply #719 on: February 20, 2020, 11:18:43 am »
The obvious answer is the likes of people that Channel 5 and the Daily Mail have been demonising for years, simultaneously distracting from the much larger problem of tax evasion by big corporations and the mega rich. "Benefit Scroungers" will be made to work for their money at below the current minimum wage in all likelihood.
Dominic Raab is on record saying we should bring back workhouses. People working for their benefits is a long held nasty Tory belief.
In their selfish little world I can see the ideas forming.
“If they plant the crops in raised beds then all those scroungers in wheelchairs could “earn” their benefits by picking fruit. Similarly, carers could pick fruit alongside them whilst looking after them, and the money they earn from fruit picking would be deducted from their carer’s allowance.”
“We could replace Deliveroo bike riders with disabled people in mobility scooters, and the cost of scooters would be paid for by the drivers.”

Anyone who isn’t born rich is fair game to be exploited in the minds of these horrible gobshites.
"I want to build a team that's invincible, so that they have to send a team from bloody Mars to beat us."