Author Topic: PL: Liverpool 2 v Watford Mo 38' 90'  (Read 20872 times)

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Re: PL: Liverpool 2 v Watford Mo 38' 90'
« Reply #400 on: December 15, 2019, 08:55:19 AM »
The Watford player by the byline is considered part of the play. The issue is that the keeper is more advanced than him and at least one other defender, so two defenders needed to be between Mo and the goal line (as is always the case - it's just that the goalkeeper is normally one of them). He by the byline is one, the defender they drew the VAR line against was the other.

It's amazed me today how many people don't understand the offside rule.

Also, when Deulofeu hit the post from his corner, the commentators on BT and MOTD both said there was an offside which is why the play was stopped soon after. There wasn't an offside, it was just that Deulofeu was the next player to touch the ball, so in essence passed the corner to himself. Obviously not allowed.

Also, the goal areas (inside the nets) are part of the field of play.
Under the old rules Cottee? was offside when Everton scored in the 1989 final because he was standing in  the goal but the linesman never flagged.
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Offline decosabute

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Re: PL: Liverpool 2 v Watford Mo 38' 90'
« Reply #401 on: December 15, 2019, 08:56:07 AM »
Yes, it’s one example, but the critical point is that the Mount incident happened when (at least in my opinion) we needed it. We arguably went on to pick up three points because Chelsea didn’t equalise. The Man Utd call did cost us two points perhaps but that’s what I meant when I said balanced out. The Napoli calls cost us in those two games but not in the overall scheme as we still qualified top of the group.

Now I don’t actually believe that things will necessarily even themselves out over the course of a season; I am just suggesting in the context of this season, the bad calls have not cost us anything more than what the “good” call compensated us for. In other words, it’s not the number of calls each way per se; it’s when they happened and the cost of the calls, if any. So if there were twenty bad calls against us in one match but we still won then it didn’t cost us anything, whereas a single call in our favour in a critical match would easily outweigh those twenty bad calls.

Anyway it will all be hopefully irrelevant come end of season. Let Man Utd fans crow about being the only team to take points off us while they miss out on Europe completely and we lift the EPL and No. 7.

Well OK, but that seems to be revising a little what you were suggesting before, where you effectively said "things already have balanced out" in your reply to the previous guy.

And ok, the bad calls haven't cost us much more in terms of results than that one Chelsea call gave us. But that's only because we're such a brilliant team that we've triumphed despite not getting breaks in games. Like everyone likes to talk about us being lucky yesterday or the Aston Villa game with the late comeback, but if the Firmino or Mane goals count (which they should), then we arguably win those games much more easily.

Basically, the fact that we're doing as well as we are despite the bad calls shouldn't take attention away from them, or attention away from how imbalanced it is. By my count we've had 7 bad VAR calls (or non-calls) go against us and 1 go for us. That's not ok, whether it cost us points or not.

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Re: PL: Liverpool 2 v Watford Mo 38' 90'
« Reply #402 on: December 15, 2019, 09:02:16 AM »
Thinking back to last week when a City player (who will not be named in case the mods end up having to lock the thread), dived like a 3yr old in a paddling pool.
VAR said no pen. It was clear simulation. I thought there was a panel to retrospectively look at such incidents.
As far as I know the pricks at the FA have never disbanded it, they simply banned Niasse (wrongly in my view) and then forgot about the whole idea. I bet that panel are still getting their retainer fees though.
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Re: PL: Liverpool 2 v Watford Mo 38' 90'
« Reply #403 on: December 15, 2019, 09:06:51 AM »
Seemed like the pitch was dry

Shouldn’t have been

They threw plenty of water down

Think it’s likely the wind slowing the ball up that made it look that way. I almost got blown off my feet walking to the ground

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Re: PL: Liverpool 2 v Watford Mo 38' 90'
« Reply #404 on: December 15, 2019, 09:21:30 AM »
Fair fucks to Watford they gave us a game and, if they could finish, they probably would of took a point at the very least.

For us, we were sluggish and possibly an early kick off after a mid-week exertions combined - made us that way. 

Not getting peoples ire with VAR decisions - if people are off-side, they are off-side, my only issue is the length of time it takes to decide. Perhaps a time limit on decisions? I don't know, but it, or should I so those using the system, are not doing themselves any favours.

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Re: PL: Liverpool 2 v Watford Mo 38' 90'
« Reply #405 on: December 15, 2019, 09:53:11 AM »
Very pleased with the result and the performance but that was always a potential banana skin of a game and it felt good to see us ride our luck to 3 points.

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Re: PL: Liverpool 2 v Watford Mo 38' 90'
« Reply #406 on: December 15, 2019, 10:02:21 AM »
Fair fucks to Watford they gave us a game and, if they could finish, they probably would of took a point at the very least.

For us, we were sluggish and possibly an early kick off after a mid-week exertions combined - made us that way. 

Not getting peoples ire with VAR decisions - if people are off-side, they are off-side, my only issue is the length of time it takes to decide. Perhaps a time limit on decisions? I don't know, but it, or should I so those using the system, are not doing themselves any favours.

As I understand it, in this case people are complaining about a part of the body that was millimeters off-side and wasn't interfering with play and couldn't have scored the goal. :)
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Re: PL: Liverpool 2 v Watford Mo 38' 90'
« Reply #407 on: December 15, 2019, 10:14:15 AM »
Well OK, but that seems to be revising a little what you were suggesting before, where you effectively said "things already have balanced out" in your reply to the previous guy.

And ok, the bad calls haven't cost us much more in terms of results than that one Chelsea call gave us. But that's only because we're such a brilliant team that we've triumphed despite not getting breaks in games. Like everyone likes to talk about us being lucky yesterday or the Aston Villa game with the late comeback, but if the Firmino or Mane goals count (which they should), then we arguably win those games much more easily.

Basically, the fact that we're doing as well as we are despite the bad calls shouldn't take attention away from them, or attention away from how imbalanced it is. By my count we've had 7 bad VAR calls (or non-calls) go against us and 1 go for us. That's not ok, whether it cost us points or not.

Nope, the bad calls are not ok and I wasn’t saying they are, just that they haven’t cost us this season (yet). I thought Mane’s goal was onside, and they seemed to be fiddling with the lines to make him off. I also wonder if at the back of the VAR referee’s mind he’s thinking if I give the goal Liverpool is going to run away with the game so let’s just not give it. And when I was watching Leicester’s game later that night, I was thinking the same - whether the referee was more likely to give Leicester a favourable call to keep the competition interesting. I am hoping that doesn’t come into play otherwise we are going to be engaged in many more of these discussions in the coming months.

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Re: PL: Liverpool 2 v Watford Mo 38' 90'
« Reply #408 on: December 15, 2019, 10:32:50 AM »
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Re: PL: Liverpool 2 v Watford Mo 38' 90'
« Reply #409 on: December 15, 2019, 10:34:33 AM »
Oh, and no yellow for Trent yesterday either. Which is nice.
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Offline Schmarn

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Re: PL: Liverpool 2 v Watford Mo 38' 90'
« Reply #410 on: December 15, 2019, 10:51:50 AM »

The idea that VAR is accurate for offsides is false. While it can be accurate in terms of the positions of the goal scorer and last defender, it is not accurate as to the precise moment the ball is passed forward. The boot remains in contact with the ball from the moment of contact, then through the ball, until the ball has left the foot. Depending at what moment you freeze the frame (and VAR never show you this key part of the calculation) the outcome can change significantly.

If we are going to persist with VAR then they should give thought to implementing a margin of error similar to “umpire’s call” in the cricket DRS review system. The purpose of VAR should not be to nitpick over armpit hairs but to eliminate the howlers.

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Re: PL: Liverpool 2 v Watford Mo 38' 90'
« Reply #411 on: December 15, 2019, 11:16:21 AM »
I'm really not that fussed about VAR being nit-picky on offsides. As we have the best offside trap in world football, I'm quite happy for it to stay that way. What I would like changed is the absurd interpretation that players aren't interfering unless they actually touch the ball - I'd personally be quite happy for offside to return to what it used to be but, failing that, there should be a rule introduced something like 'anyone in line with the 6 yard area to the ende of the box is adjudged to be offside'. It would stop those ridiculous situations where three clearly offside players from a set-piece very obviously challenge for the ball but it's given as a goal because it goes fractionally over all their heads to land at the back post player who was onside, or those situations where a massively offside player gets out of the way of the ball at the last second to allow an inside player to shoot.

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Re: PL: Liverpool 2 v Watford Mo 38' 90'
« Reply #412 on: December 15, 2019, 01:54:24 PM »
Didn't see the match as I was on a plane. How did big Shaq get on???

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Re: PL: Liverpool 2 v Watford Mo 38' 90'
« Reply #413 on: December 15, 2019, 01:59:13 PM »
Didn't see the match as I was on a plane. How did big Shaq get on???

Bit anonymous, but great cross for Manes "offside" goal

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Re: PL: Liverpool 2 v Watford Mo 38' 90'
« Reply #414 on: December 15, 2019, 02:07:33 PM »
Aaahhh thats a shame. Was hoping he’d have a stormer. Makes me weirdly happy when I see him on the team sheet.

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Re: PL: Liverpool 2 v Watford Mo 38' 90'
« Reply #415 on: December 15, 2019, 03:07:32 PM »
Not the greatest watch ever that. But there are some real positives to take away. Salah looking really sharp again and despite some misses scoring two with nice finishes. Love the fact the flicked goal also goes through the Watford players legs.
Gomez performed really well too and by default he’s now back for a run, so hopefully he gets back to the heights of last season where he was almost as good as VVD for a few months.
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Re: PL: Liverpool 2 v Watford Mo 38' 90'
« Reply #416 on: December 15, 2019, 03:24:31 PM »
Nope, the bad calls are not ok and I wasn’t saying they are, just that they haven’t cost us this season (yet). I thought Mane’s goal was onside, and they seemed to be fiddling with the lines to make him off. I also wonder if at the back of the VAR referee’s mind he’s thinking if I give the goal Liverpool is going to run away with the game so let’s just not give it. And when I was watching Leicester’s game later that night, I was thinking the same - whether the referee was more likely to give Leicester a favourable call to keep the competition interesting. I am hoping that doesn’t come into play otherwise we are going to be engaged in many more of these discussions in the coming months.

do you honestly think they approach decisions that way?

sounds very similar to what city fans brood over with their conspiracy theories that the powers that be want us to win the league, hence their 'bad' fortune and our 'good' fortune - in their blue tinted glasses view of course

personally, i haven't got any time for conspiracy theories cos if im watching a game with that in my head, may as well give up watching footy (yes i know refs have been bought, juventus and all that [italy has a history of fixing by refs and linesmen] but to think a governing body is manipulating league outcomes? may as well chuck it in if it was the case, winning would be meaningless
« Last Edit: December 15, 2019, 03:38:55 PM by Armand9 »
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Offline Silverbird

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Re: PL: Liverpool 2 v Watford Mo 38' 90'
« Reply #417 on: December 15, 2019, 04:09:24 PM »
do you honestly think they approach decisions that way?

sounds very similar to what city fans brood over with their conspiracy theories that the powers that be want us to win the league, hence their 'bad' fortune and our 'good' fortune - in their blue tinted glasses view of course

personally, i haven't got any time for conspiracy theories cos if im watching a game with that in my head, may as well give up watching footy (yes i know refs have been bought, juventus and all that [italy has a history of fixing by refs and linesmen] but to think a governing body is manipulating league outcomes? may as well chuck it in if it was the case, winning would be meaningless

No need to jump to conclusions. It’s not a conspiracy theory. At least I don’t believe the referees set out deliberately to “fix” the game. I am suggesting maybe it’s something that weighs on their minds. For example, some referees may not give a second yellow and a red upon the player committing a second yellow card offence because they might try to keep the game a contest. I don’t think others are out to get us intentionally.

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Re: PL: Liverpool 2 v Watford Mo 38' 90'
« Reply #418 on: December 15, 2019, 04:31:13 PM »
Aaahhh thats a shame. Was hoping he’d have a stormer. Makes me weirdly happy when I see him on the team sheet.

There was one moment in the first half where he chased back into the defensive third to help Trent and won a tackle.

In any of his other incarnations at other clubs, that would never have happened.

He seems to be trying to do more of the things players for Klopp are asked to do, which should be a good sign...
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Re: PL: Liverpool 2 v Watford Mo 38' 90'
« Reply #419 on: December 15, 2019, 10:34:00 PM »
I am suggesting maybe it’s something that weighs on their minds. For example, some referees may not give a second yellow and a red upon the player committing a second yellow card offence because they might try to keep the game a contest. I don’t think others are out to get us intentionally.
Often the failure to show a 2nd yellow is partly due to trying to hold the offence to a higher standard in a similar way that refs won't give a pen for a foul they would blow for elsewhere on the pitch. It's strange when you think that decisions should be the same but there is a case where you should be doubly sure before making game changing decisions.
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Offline red vinyl

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Re: PL: Liverpool 2 v Watford Mo 38' 90'
« Reply #420 on: December 15, 2019, 10:42:30 PM »
I'm really not that fussed about VAR being nit-picky on offsides. As we have the best offside trap in world football, I'm quite happy for it to stay that way. What I would like changed is the absurd interpretation that players aren't interfering unless they actually touch the ball - I'd personally be quite happy for offside to return to what it used to be but, failing that, there should be a rule introduced something like 'anyone in line with the 6 yard area to the ende of the box is adjudged to be offside'. It would stop those ridiculous situations where three clearly offside players from a set-piece very obviously challenge for the ball but it's given as a goal because it goes fractionally over all their heads to land at the back post player who was onside, or those situations where a massively offside player gets out of the way of the ball at the last second to allow an inside player to shoot.

Exactly,if your not interfering with play etc. Shouldnt be on the pitch in that case.

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Re: PL: Liverpool 2 v Watford Mo 38' 90'
« Reply #421 on: December 16, 2019, 01:08:40 AM »
Often the failure to show a 2nd yellow is partly due to trying to hold the offence to a higher standard in a similar way that refs won't give a pen for a foul they would blow for elsewhere on the pitch. It's strange when you think that decisions should be the same but there is a case where you should be doubly sure before making game changing decisions.

I think based on an interpretation of the rules, you must be correct. But I have always thought the extra restraint makes sense. You are refereeing a competitive match, so you are refereeing incidents in a bigger context, not individual incidents in a complete vacuum. So it makes sense to consider the effect of your decisions on the match. I always recall this game we had against Man Utd where the referee sent Hypia off after six minutes and gave a penalty, and a 90-minute match was effectively over after just six. But maybe I would have thought differently if it was a Man Utd player who had been sent off.

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Re: PL: Liverpool 2 v Watford Mo 38' 90'
« Reply #422 on: December 16, 2019, 02:49:08 AM »
I think based on an interpretation of the rules, you must be correct. But I have always thought the extra restraint makes sense. You are refereeing a competitive match, so you are refereeing incidents in a bigger context, not individual incidents in a complete vacuum. So it makes sense to consider the effect of your decisions on the match. I always recall this game we had against Man Utd where the referee sent Hypia off after six minutes and gave a penalty, and a 90-minute match was effectively over after just six. But maybe I would have thought differently if it was a Man Utd player who had been sent off.

Except, they should be refereeing individual incidents, because to do otherwise lets the subjectivity of the referee's narrative control the game.
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Re: PL: Liverpool 2 v Watford Mo 38' 90'
« Reply #423 on: December 16, 2019, 03:05:12 AM »
No need to jump to conclusions. It’s not a conspiracy theory. At least I don’t believe the referees set out deliberately to “fix” the game. I am suggesting maybe it’s something that weighs on their minds. For example, some referees may not give a second yellow and a red upon the player committing a second yellow card offence because they might try to keep the game a contest. I don’t think others are out to get us intentionally.

when you said 'and they seemed to be fiddling with the lines to make him off' - that's kind of in 'fixing' territory wouldn't you say, maybe you didn't mean to word it that way but that is literally 'fixing' a decision if that were the case.

anyway, i get what you're saying above, personally i dont think 'keep it a contest' remotely enters their mind, because that isn't in their criteria for standard of work and ultimately they are judged by their decisions and control of the game and if their superiors judge them as dogshit, they aint getting the big games domestically or in europe/world cup (and we've seen demotions to lower leagues for refs that have had howlers)

i think the vast majority of refs (all?) simply want to get it right and as in all work arenas, some are better than others

VAR. where there are still some judgement calls to a degree, you'd hope only a tiny percentage are questionable and if you're the dude doing it, you haven't the excuses of a ref (fast play, positioning etc), we see what you see and if you're crap at that, well, i imagine you wont last long, so i think the dude's doing it are also making honest assessments on a case by case basis - some for sure are debateable (a few plain wrong in my eyes) but i think for the most part they're on track
« Last Edit: December 16, 2019, 03:08:49 AM by Armand9 »
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Re: PL: Liverpool 2 v Watford Mo 38' 90'
« Reply #424 on: December 16, 2019, 07:23:14 AM »
I don't understand why everyone shat themselves over the VVD backpass. A good defender always passes to either side of the goal so that the keeper is protected in case of pitch SNAFUs or general incompetence. And VVD is the best defender in the world, so he can do it with a half-inch margin of error.

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Re: PL: Liverpool 2 v Watford Mo 38' 90'
« Reply #425 on: December 16, 2019, 07:26:18 AM »
I don't understand why everyone shat themselves over the VVD backpass. A good defender always passes to either side of the goal so that the keeper is protected in case of pitch SNAFUs or general incompetence. And VVD is the best defender in the world, so he can do it with a half-inch margin of error.

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Re: PL: Liverpool 2 v Watford Mo 38' 90'
« Reply #426 on: December 16, 2019, 12:10:16 PM »
Didn't see the match as I was on a plane. How did big Shaq get on???

Klopp was going absolutely ape shit at him during the 1st half. Sit near the benches and Klopp not happy about something.

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Re: PL: Liverpool 2 v Watford Mo 38' 90'
« Reply #427 on: December 16, 2019, 12:41:03 PM »
That Mane disallowed goal, the Milner Shaq exchange prior to it gave me serious Gini vs Barca vibes. Both of them were like almost in the same spot.
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Re: PL: Liverpool 2 v Watford Mo 38' 90'
« Reply #428 on: December 16, 2019, 01:51:23 PM »
Life affirming story about Ben Foster picking up a lost old man after a game last week here:
https://twitter.com/Diorcv/status/1205611730593824769/photo/1 picked up by the bbc if lost in the mire of twitter : https://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcthree/article/9da4257e-5e75-4aac-9b01-915331b268ae nice read that.
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Re: PL: Liverpool 2 v Watford Mo 38' 90'
« Reply #429 on: December 16, 2019, 02:57:22 PM »
Life affirming story about Ben Foster picking up a lost old man after a game last week here:
https://twitter.com/Diorcv/status/1205611730593824769/photo/1 picked up by the bbc if lost in the mire of twitter : https://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcthree/article/9da4257e-5e75-4aac-9b01-915331b268ae nice read that.

That's lovely, he and his family just come across as very caring to go back and look for the guy.  Thank goodness they did too! Good man Ben Foster.
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Re: PL: Liverpool 2 v Watford Mo 38' 90'
« Reply #430 on: December 16, 2019, 04:58:03 PM »
That's lovely, he and his family just come across as very caring to go back and look for the guy.  Thank goodness they did too! Good man Ben Foster.

Just goes to show that not all teenagers are rampant tearaways.

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Re: PL: Liverpool 2 v Watford Mo 38' 90'
« Reply #431 on: December 16, 2019, 04:59:44 PM »
Just goes to show that not all teenagers are rampant tearaways.

it actually made me smile that they said he was travelling with his parents, like he was some kid  ;D  Young Ben Foster is a good lad though  :)
Football always seems the most important of the least important things.

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Re: PL: Liverpool 2 v Watford Mo 38' 90'
« Reply #432 on: December 16, 2019, 05:25:30 PM »
Life affirming story about Ben Foster picking up a lost old man after a game last week here:
https://twitter.com/Diorcv/status/1205611730593824769/photo/1 picked up by the bbc if lost in the mire of twitter : https://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcthree/article/9da4257e-5e75-4aac-9b01-915331b268ae nice read that.
That is class.

My father in law is 84 and sadly, is similarly afflicted.

It's a daily challenge.

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Re: PL: Liverpool 2 v Watford Mo 38' 90'
« Reply #433 on: December 17, 2019, 02:50:11 PM »
it actually made me smile that they said he was travelling with his parents, like he was some kid  ;D  Young Ben Foster is a good lad though  :)

It says he was travelling with his wife and his dad.

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Re: PL: Liverpool 2 v Watford Mo 38' 90'
« Reply #434 on: December 17, 2019, 04:34:43 PM »
It says he was travelling with his wife and his dad.

Must have eloped to Gretna Green with her.