Poll

RAWK and Brexit

No Deal!
65 (8.8%)
Mays Deal!
14 (1.9%)
No Brexit!
538 (72.8%)
Don't Know
10 (1.4%)
Don't Care
15 (2%)
I don't live in the UK
97 (13.1%)

Total Members Voted: 739

Author Topic: Brexit: "Vultus inanis est et mori in fossa ego sum!"  (Read 948175 times)

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24440 on: August 16, 2019, 10:23:00 AM »
As I said skeletons. If the electorate can forgive an illegal war with 100’s of thousands dead they can forgive being called to power at the countries greatest need since the Second World War.  As I said all conjecture but with labour pulling the Yes Prime Minister/New Statesmen trick of leaving the next lot to clear up your own shit whilst they rebuild and snipe from the sidelines. Even with little comedy notes to say the moneys all gone.

Dead dead easy to throw stones from glass houses but we all end shredded because every party has blood on their hands
That’s true...

And we shouldn’t forget that the Lib Dem’s supported the Tories because they wanted to change the voting system to make politics in this country  fairer

It would have revolutionised the way our country worked.  That was an admirable aspiration.. 
“Happiness can be found in the darkest of times, if one only remembers to turn on the light.”

With courage, nothing is impossible.

Offline fudge

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24441 on: August 16, 2019, 10:25:34 AM »


She has refused to work/cooperate with the oppision party leader to support a vonc and lead a gonu to stop no deal and call a GE which all other party leaders have accepted!

She's a lying selfish 2 faced tory bitch!

🤣 half his own MP’s can’t stand Corbyn and you’re worrying about what the LIb Dems have to say, which btw is the main reason she’s saying she can’t work with him because any concept of unity goes out of the window with the Labour and Tory MP’s who won’t work with him.

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24442 on: August 16, 2019, 10:25:52 AM »
The Lib Dem's have done plenty to erode any amount of trust or affection they might have from genuinely left leaning voters.

It really isn't a case of they're disliked because they're moderate or centrists, they're disliked because they enabled the Tories to implement nasty, damaging and cruel austerity *this decade* much of which is still being felt, still fresh in the memories of most.

They also flip flopped on their one actual policy which garnered them some amount of votes to even enable them to be able to cosign on austerity in that whole tuition fee fuck up.

Now here we are again and for the second time in my life the Lib Dems are ready to fuck shit up and undermine the one thing they claim to stand for.

They earned any and all of the vitriol they get.

100% well said mate
who are you to judge the life i live?
i know im not perfect-and i dont live to be,
but before you start pointing fingers make
sure your hands are clean!.

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24443 on: August 16, 2019, 10:26:44 AM »
That’s true...

And we shouldn’t forget that the Lib Dem’s supported the Tories because they wanted to change the voting system to make politics in this country  fairer

It would have revolutionised the way our country worked.  That was an admirable aspiration.. 

That’s the biggest regret and missed opportunity I believe . Would’ve genuinely improved this countries democracy
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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24444 on: August 16, 2019, 10:27:08 AM »
🤣 half his own MP’s can’t stand Corbyn and you’re worrying about what the LIb Dems have to say, which btw is the main reason she’s saying she can’t work with him because any concept of unity goes out of the window with the Labour and Tory MP’s who won’t work with him.


It’s about 80% who don’t have confidence in him...


Plus there are Tories who will say they will support a vonc just to screw up the numbers
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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24445 on: August 16, 2019, 10:28:45 AM »
Bemused? You shouldn't be.

For the far left, the true enemy aren't the Tories or other right wing parties - they are their opponents and are truly necessary for their existence. They can campaign against them, rage against their policies and uncaring actions, sometimes beating them in elections (in theory), more often losing to them (and let's face it, they probably secretly prefer that as it avoids the messy compromises of actually governing).

No, their true enemy are other parties of the left and centre-left - be they social democrats or liberals. Because those parties show that progressive politics can be successful, both electorally and in governing, without being stuck in the old far left mindset. And in doing so, render the existence of the far left as redundant (certainly as a serious electoral force). That's why you'll see their really visceral hatred directed at those parties you might expect to be political allies.

I can recognise this 100%
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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24446 on: August 16, 2019, 10:29:35 AM »
That’s the biggest regret and missed opportunity I believe . Would’ve genuinely improved this countries democracy
Indeed....

And in response they promised to support the Tories.

Now the general feeling is that they shouldn’t have done this and they should have gone back on their word.

However, we also want politicians who are honest and do what they actually say...

So it’s complex.
“Happiness can be found in the darkest of times, if one only remembers to turn on the light.”

With courage, nothing is impossible.

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24447 on: August 16, 2019, 10:29:58 AM »
100% well said mate
And all without a hint of misogyny. You should take note.

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24448 on: August 16, 2019, 10:31:27 AM »
As I said skeletons. If the electorate can forgive an illegal war with 100’s of thousands dead they can forgive being called to power at the countries greatest need since the Second World War.  As I said all conjecture but with labour pulling the Yes Prime Minister/New Statesmen trick of leaving the next lot to clear up your own shit whilst they rebuild and snipe from the sidelines. Even with little comedy notes to say the moneys all gone.

Dead dead easy to throw stones from glass houses but we all end shredded because every party has blood on their hands

If I had any sort of confidence the Lib Dems wouldn't do it all over again if afforded the opportunity I might agree they should be cut some slack, alas here we are and the first opportunity they have to act like the sensible centrists they claim to be and avoid no deal and Swinson steams out of the traps to make a needless and reckless move which flies in the face of what the party has claimed it stands for.

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24449 on: August 16, 2019, 10:33:00 AM »
If I had any sort of confidence the Lib Dems wouldn't do it all over again if afforded the opportunity I might agree they should be cut some slack, alas here we are and the first opportunity they have to act like the sensible centrists they claim to be and avoid no deal and Swinson steams out of the traps to make a needless and reckless move which flies in the face of what the party has claimed it stands for.
What reckless move is that?

(Bit lost here)
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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24450 on: August 16, 2019, 10:33:47 AM »
It’s about 80% who don’t have confidence in him...


Plus there are Tories who will say they will support a vonc just to screw up the numbers

I was plucking figures I honestly don’t know
It’s about 80% who don’t have confidence in him...


Plus there are Tories who will say they will support a vonc just to screw up the numbers

So regardless of what I think about the Corbyn- Momentum- Watson spat it just rams how the fuck anyone can start reviling the Lib Dem’s when their own party is utterly dysfunctional and unfit for purpose

Oh and by the way that doesn’t make me happy this country desperately needs a strong Labour , unfortunately it’s balsa wood at the mo.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2019, 10:35:31 AM by fudge »
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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24451 on: August 16, 2019, 10:35:54 AM »
At this stage its not even clear the numbers are there to pass a VONC never mind to get a GNU in play.

The remaining Change MPs saying they won't support a VONC unless its clear there are the numbers in Parliament to get a GNU inp place, otherwise the VONC would just allow Johnson to run out the time on Article 50 by calling an election after it had expired

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24452 on: August 16, 2019, 10:37:52 AM »
If I had any sort of confidence the Lib Dems wouldn't do it all over again if afforded the opportunity I might agree they should be cut some slack, alas here we are and the first opportunity they have to act like the sensible centrists they claim to be and avoid no deal and Swinson steams out of the traps to make a needless and reckless move which flies in the face of what the party has claimed it stands for.

Probably a bit early to call it a reckless move, no? Maybe if the VONC had already been tabled by Labour as hoped, it could be argued to be potentially reckless.

Labour's prioritising of a bukake over a couple of hundred SWP weirdos in parliament square over tabling the motion, as it stands, is looking far more reckless and concerning at this point.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2019, 10:39:57 AM by Classycara »

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24453 on: August 16, 2019, 10:37:58 AM »
At this stage its not even clear the numbers are there to pass a VONC never mind to get a GNU in play.

The remaining Change MPs saying they won't support a VONC unless its clear there are the numbers in Parliament to get a GNU inp place, otherwise the VONC would just allow Johnson to run out the time on Article 50 by calling an election after it had expired
And they do raise an important point with that...l

Fuck knows what we do to be honest.
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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24454 on: August 16, 2019, 10:39:11 AM »
If I had any sort of confidence the Lib Dems wouldn't do it all over again if afforded the opportunity I might agree they should be cut some slack, alas here we are and the first opportunity they have to act like the sensible centrists they claim to be and avoid no deal and Swinson steams out of the traps to make a needless and reckless move which flies in the face of what the party has claimed it stands for.

Btw I don’t see the angle here and agree that Swinson shouldn’t be ruling out anything at this stage.

I think the party realises who their natural bedfellows are and whilst you can’t rule out ever working with another party if the country needs it , such as now for example it makes perfect sense for Labour,Lib dems, Greens , Plaid and the SNP to work collaboratively.  It’s been shown what working with the Tories costs you and quite rightly too
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Offline Cpt_Reina

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24455 on: August 16, 2019, 10:43:17 AM »
What reckless move is that?

(Bit lost here)

Refusing to work with a Corbyn led GoNU before waiting to see if he even had the numbers to make it happen. Refusing to do so before even the Tories invited along had done so.

What happens if he can make the numbers work and the 'anti brexit, we're grown ups we need to work across party lines' party has already flat out refused to allow him to prevent no deal? Another 180 from the party that's only ever so willing to do one.

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24456 on: August 16, 2019, 10:45:08 AM »
... A minority government in this house won't be able to do anything beyond a narrow scope pre-agreed with all of its backers.


I've read some suggestions (though not well sourced) that the idea of immediate proroguing could be technically possible as one of the first acts of a PM once power is gained in order to bypass such constraints. I hope for everyones sakes that this is unfounded, and just not possible.

I understand that some were quite keen on Boris actually doing it first in order to then set a precedent within the current political landscape for such a thing.



I don't do polite so fuck yoursalf with your stupid accusations...

Right you fuckwit I will show you why you are talking out of your fat arse...

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24457 on: August 16, 2019, 10:49:50 AM »
Refusing to work with a Corbyn led GoNU before waiting to see if he even had the numbers to make it happen. Refusing to do so before even the Tories invited along had done so.

What happens if he can make the numbers work and the 'anti brexit, we're grown ups we need to work across party lines' party has already flat out refused to allow him to prevent no deal? Another 180 from the party that's only ever so willing to do one.
I see what you meant now...

So, should we we be backing an antisemite as prime minister?
Will he put off too many Tories from a VONC?
Can we trust him not to force through a Brexit of his own if we do?

I’m guessing this is their thinking ....

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24458 on: August 16, 2019, 10:49:58 AM »
No, I don’t agree. 

I don’t agree with what he says, but if I’m going to describe Corbyn asa useless c*nt, he’s got every right to do the same to Swinson
It can be criticised from the perspective of 'the left', though. The old hard left (influenced by proper 1970s feminism) wouldn't have been seen dead describing a female MP as a bitch or a cow. Apparently the new hard left doesn't mind so much.
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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24459 on: August 16, 2019, 10:51:16 AM »
Not sure if it's registered with current Labour supporters, but moderate Tory voters - the ones who kept austerity going for 9 years and counting - will choose Johnson over Corbyn in a general election. And they'll not vote Lib Dem if Swinson puts Corbyn into power for however long before a general election. And if that doesn't happen then Labour doesn't get even a minority government supported by the Lib Dems on a vote by vote basis. Pyrrhic victories and all that.
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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24460 on: August 16, 2019, 10:51:25 AM »
If I had any sort of confidence the Lib Dems wouldn't do it all over again if afforded the opportunity I might agree they should be cut some slack, alas here we are and the first opportunity they have to act like the sensible centrists they claim to be and avoid no deal and Swinson steams out of the traps to make a needless and reckless move which flies in the face of what the party has claimed it stands for.

This might be a stupid question, but it's an honest one;

Why are the Lib-dems not forgiven as a party for the coalition, but only "blairites" responsible for the Iraq war? Why can Blair be separated from Labour, but not Clegg from the Lib-dems?
Brexit (n) - "The undefined being negotiated by the unprepared in order to get the unspecified for the uninformed."

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24461 on: August 16, 2019, 10:51:48 AM »
It can be criticised from the perspective of 'the left', though. The old hard left (influenced by proper 1970s feminism) wouldn't have been seen dead describing a female MP as a bitch or a cow. Apparently the new hard left doesn't mind so much.

Yeah, that’s a fair point...

I was just considering his use of invective, but of course it shouldn’t be because she’s a woman.
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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24462 on: August 16, 2019, 10:52:36 AM »
I've read some suggestions (though not well sourced) that the idea of immediate proroguing could be technically possible as one of the first acts of a PM once power is gained in order to bypass such constraints. I hope for everyones sakes that this is unfounded, and just not possible.

I understand that some were quite keen on Boris actually doing it first in order to then set a precedent within the current political landscape for such a thing.





I still think Johnson is more interested in being seen to be doing anything he can to force through No Deal by 31st October before a GE can be called than he is in actually doing it.

He needs to be seen to be pushing for it as hard as possible to cannibalise the Brexit Party vote, particularly if he ends up fighting an election before Brexit is delivered, but it means he isn't fighting an election in possible chaos of the period just after a No Deal Brexit has gone through that he is responsible for.

I certainly don't think he would be crying if he was blocked and had to fight a GE on a People v Parliament campaign.

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24463 on: August 16, 2019, 10:53:37 AM »
Utterly bemused by this visceral hatred for the Lib Dem’s, proper Life of Brian splitter stuff.
I agree with all of this - but reserve the right to point out (from the 'soft left') that Swinson has misjudged and overplayed her position on this occasion, though. A Corbyn led GNU may well have struggled to get the numbers, but it shouldn't have been the leader of the Lib Dems ruling him out, for what seems to be playing a little party politics of her own to be seen as the 'honest broker' of cross party talks. Win a couple of hundred seats and become the official opposition if you want to play at being leader of the opposition. As it is, Swinson has backed Corbyn into a corner which isn't good for anyone who wants to avoid No Deal.

She's still a relatively inexperienced and naive political leader. The vastly more experienced and astute Sturgeon - while having if anything greater recent hostility to the Labour party - has taken a very different approach.
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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24464 on: August 16, 2019, 10:55:53 AM »
I agree with all of this - but reserve the right to point out (from the 'soft left') that Swinson has misjudged and overplayed her position on this occasion, though. A Corbyn led GNU may well have struggled to get the numbers, but it shouldn't have been the leader of the Lib Dems ruling him out, for what seems to be playing a little party politics of her own to be seen as the 'honest broker' of cross party talks. Win a couple of hundred seats and become the official opposition if you want to play at being leader of the opposition. As it is, Swinson has backed Corbyn into a corner which isn't good for anyone who wants to avoid No Deal.



I agree it was a misstep, and as predicted she already seems to be pulling back from it, now willing to talk to Labour to see how a GNU could be made to work, while still saying she doesn't believe the numbers are there with Corbyn leading.

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24465 on: August 16, 2019, 10:56:30 AM »
This might be a stupid question, but it's an honest one;

Why are the Lib-dems not forgiven as a party for the coalition, but only "blairites" responsible for the Iraq war? Why can Blair be separated from Labour, but not Clegg from the Lib-dems?

Because the labour party has moved significantly to the left since the Blair years and looks to be an altogether different party?

Can the same be said of the Lib Dems? What differentiates this iteration of the LD's from Clegg's?

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24466 on: August 16, 2019, 10:57:48 AM »
The Lib Dem's have done plenty to erode any amount of trust or affection they might have from genuinely left leaning voters.

It really isn't a case of they're disliked because they're moderate or centrists, they're disliked because they enabled the Tories to implement nasty, damaging and cruel austerity *this decade* much of which is still being felt, still fresh in the memories of most.

They also flip flopped on their one actual policy which garnered them some amount of votes to even enable them to be able to cosign on austerity in that whole tuition fee fuck up.

Now here we are again and for the second time in my life the Lib Dems are ready to fuck shit up and undermine the one thing they claim to stand for.

They earned any and all of the vitriol they get.

Enabling the Tories is simplistic at best, they were a thorn in the side of them.

I'll be voting Dem until Corbyn fucks off personally.

:D

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24467 on: August 16, 2019, 10:58:09 AM »
Because the labour party has moved significantly to the left since the Blair years and looks to be an altogether different party?

Can the same be said of the Lib Dems? What differentiates this iteration of the LD's from Clegg's?
They’ve given up trying to reform the voting system which was the pay off for supporting the Tories
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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24468 on: August 16, 2019, 10:59:38 AM »


I should have been clearer, it was with reference to the supposed constraints on a temporary gnu / PM preventing them from going outside their tight remit and if the constraints could possibly be bypassed. I'm reasonable confident that such a thing, if possible, would not have been ignored by Milne and Murray and others of that persuasion.

What I seek is an explanation and assurance as to why it couldn't be possible.
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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24469 on: August 16, 2019, 11:11:14 AM »
Because the labour party has moved significantly to the left since the Blair years and looks to be an altogether different party?
Thanks.


Can the same be said of the Lib Dems? What differentiates this iteration of the LD's from Clegg's?

I don't know. That's why I generally follow these threads without contributing.

I'd say probably that the main difference they aren't in coalition with the Torys, and the fact that they won't jump straight in with Corbyn prossibly shows that maybe they are also a different party now, one more wary of getting so closely alligned to a party they don't share entirely similar views with?
« Last Edit: August 16, 2019, 11:12:49 AM by eddymunster »
Brexit (n) - "The undefined being negotiated by the unprepared in order to get the unspecified for the uninformed."

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24470 on: August 16, 2019, 11:23:17 AM »
I'm not sure where Gauke sits in the spectrum of likely Tory rebels, but not exactly enthused on the Corbyn option,

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24471 on: August 16, 2019, 11:49:19 AM »
I'm not sure where Gauke sits in the spectrum of likely Tory rebels, but not exactly enthused on the Corbyn option,


Gauke and Hammond are meant to be working on something themselves which doesn't involve making Corbyn PM. Grieves rejecting it out of hand should really demonstrate that Swinson hadn't factored in Corbyn and Co pretending it was anything otherwise.
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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24472 on: August 16, 2019, 11:52:14 AM »
I can absolutely see why people say Corbyn should be the PM in a GONU.
But if it’s such an issue that there is no GONU so you have to pick someone else.

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24473 on: August 16, 2019, 11:55:53 AM »
The only way this could possibly work is with a tight schedule of actions:

1. Secure an A50 extension
2. Conduct a 2nd Ref
3. Hold a GE

With a disparate alliance able to withdraw their support at any time (thus making the GNU fall), there would be no room for deviating from the schedule.

Problem is, I can't imagine Corbyn and his team going for anything like that - and the TIGgers are too intent on despising Corbyn and not losing their Parliamentary seats in a brought-forward GE to support it, so would likely vote against and risk a no-deal.

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24474 on: August 16, 2019, 12:08:35 PM »
Gauke and Hammond are meant to be working on something themselves which doesn't involve making Corbyn PM. Grieves rejecting it out of hand should really demonstrate that Swinson hadn't factored in Corbyn and Co pretending it was anything otherwise.

Grieve's opposition pretty much kills it as a credible option I would think, the Labour leadership just need too many Tories to support it,  as they can't bring all the non-Tories to vote for Corbyn (and I'm not talking about the LDs there either)

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24475 on: August 16, 2019, 12:19:46 PM »
I can absolutely see why people say Corbyn should be the PM in a GONU.
But if it’s such an issue that there is no GONU so you have to pick someone else.


Agreed. I think the point of disagreement is that that isn't Swinson's decision and her eagerness to do so betrayed a desire to be seen as the leader of 'Stop-No-Deal' (with all the political gain associated) that slightly over-reached her position.
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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24478 on: August 16, 2019, 12:45:00 PM »
Or Scotland apparently.
Or 1977. Or 1924. Or 1929. Or local governments.
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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24479 on: August 16, 2019, 01:06:21 PM »
It's all well and good calling Corbyn a c*nt/tw*t and every other word under the sun!
Some of you need to get off your high horses!

He's earned the abuse with his ongoing abysmal performance since the referendum, you apparently think that she deserves being abused for not wanting to put a brexiter in charge of dealing with brexit.