Poll

RAWK and Brexit

No Deal!
43 (8.7%)
Mays Deal!
11 (2.2%)
No Brexit!
360 (73.2%)
Don't Know
7 (1.4%)
Don't Care
9 (1.8%)
I don't live in the UK
62 (12.6%)

Total Members Voted: 492

Author Topic: Brexit thread with Lefties, Tories, bloods, wastoids, Dweebs & dickheads.....?  (Read 358085 times)

Offline ShakaHislop

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I actually think there is a fair chance she might eventually get it through

Her doing so would be the real mockery of democracy, not remaining in the EU as many caim it would be. Everyone would know that Parliament has waved through something of huge importance that it honestly doesn't agree with.

I would have liked Bercow to intervene but I worry the "you can't vote twice on the same thing" argument could be twisted to argue against further votes on another referendum after last night's fiasco.

Apart from Bercow, there's little to no options that I can see that can be used to stop May. Even if something like the Bryant amendment passes, it's not legally-binding so she could just ignore it I think.

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Offline BOBSCOUSE

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Fair play, if she manages to push her deal at the 3rd or 4th attempt, then she's the one who's 'played a blinder'

Hoping to get through on away goals, would indeed be playing a blinder.
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Offline west_london_red

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I actually think there is a fair chance she might eventually get it through

I can’t see it happening, the numbers are so tight between the Tories and DUP vs Opposition that if only a few Tories hold out it won’t go through unless a good number of Labour MPs decide to vote for it.

Offline BobOnATank

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Seems like ignoring democracy isn't an issue for May when it comes to getting her deal done https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/mar/15/ministers-dup-democratic-unionist-party-talks-brexit-deal-support. The british government simply can never be seen as an honest broker in the GFA while holding these closed door negotiations with one party.

Offline cdav

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Seems like ignoring democracy isn't an issue for May when it comes to getting her deal done https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/mar/15/ministers-dup-democratic-unionist-party-talks-brexit-deal-support. The british government simply can never be seen as an honest broker in the GFA while holding these closed door negotiations with one party.

Wonder how many billions the DUP will ring out of the Tories for their support this time

Offline Zeb

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DUP will pocket the cash and then vote precisely as they intended to do anyway. Their calculation only shifts once May's 'deal' is no longer possible, doesn't it?

Still think May's 'deal' will pass but, reading through some of the leaks from EU discussions in Brussels tonight, it's very possible that we'll spend the bulk of an extension period with a lot of her party trying to derail the legislation she needs and at least some of the opposition demanding revocation.

---

edit: Chris Grey's a good read on events, as ever.

Quote
No doubt it will be quickly forgotten, but the Damian Green amendment to Wednesday’s no-deal vote based on that latter fantasy got the support of 164 MPs including at least four cabinet ministers. Reflect on that for a moment: something literally impossible was voted for by about a quarter of the House of Commons, by no means all of them Brexiters.

Quote
At all events, as the dust of this week settles two things are clear. There will be an application for extension of Article 50 and we do indeed now face the third meaningful vote (MV3) early next week (as trailed in my previous post at the end of last week).

As regards extension, the admission that Brexit will not happen on 29 March (unless the EU-27 decide it will), even though every informed person has realised this for weeks now, is a big ‘political-psychological’ moment given May’s dogmatic, repetitive insistence that that was ‘the date’. But it will not have a huge impact if MV3 passes and she gets (as she surely would) a brief ‘technical extension’.

So what of MV3? Like PV campaigners, the ERG face a tactical dilemma, though of a different sort: back the deal or perhaps lose Brexit.  They may already have made the wrong call by not backing May in MV2. That was my immediate sense after Tuesday’s vote, if only because it may galvanize Tory ‘pragmatists’ to take the gloves off as some threatened. In other words, it may be that more ‘pragmatists’ vote against MV3 than did against MV2, having finally tired of showing the party loyalty that the Ultras disdain. In any case, with party discipline in free fall all round, those pragmatists may realise this is their last chance to avoid the disaster of Brexit and grab it.

There is a general expectation of the ERG softening, but amongst the real hard core there is already evidence of a determination to dig in (the piece linked to, by their researcher, was, be it noted, tweeted by Steve Baker who is an influential member of the group). Some will undoubtedly do so. Ironically remainers’ best hope now is that large numbers of the ERG prove to be fanatical dogmatists, which isn’t an entirely unrealistic hope to have. That number, along of course with how the DUP and Labour Brexiters vote, will determine what happens. It looks like being very close this time.

If it squeaks through, despite being something that nobody really wants, it will set up years of acrimony, slow-burn economic decline and rumbling political crisis. If it is defeated again, all bets are off (including, if it is only narrowly defeated, the tear-your-hair-out possibility of MV4). Very likely that will bring a long extension and if so then at that point the loss of the 29 March ‘independence day’ will become a huge development.

My childhood perpetual motion machine was a rickety Heath-Robinson structure, consisting of a complex interplay of pulleys, strings, cog wheels and axles. Built on a flawed premise, it was doomed to failure. The politics of Brexit has a similar crazy array of moving parts and suffers from a similar basic flaw.

You can’t turn lies into policy.

http://chrisgreybrexitblog.blogspot.com/2019/03/this-is-what-politics-based-on-lies.html
« Last Edit: March 15, 2019, 07:35:22 PM by Zeb »
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Offline ShakaHislop

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DUP will pocket the cash and then vote precisely as they intended to do anyway. Their calculation only shifts once May's 'deal' is no longer possible, doesn't it?

Still think May's 'deal' will pass but, reading through some of the leaks from EU discussions in Brussels tonight, it's very possible that we'll spend the bulk of an extension period with a lot of her party trying to derail the legislation she needs and at least some of the opposition demanding revocation.

---

edit: Chris Grey's a good read on events, as ever.

http://chrisgreybrexitblog.blogspot.com/2019/03/this-is-what-politics-based-on-lies.html

Quote
So what of MV3? Like PV campaigners, the ERG face a tactical dilemma, though of a different sort: back the deal or perhaps lose Brexit.  They may already have made the wrong call by not backing May in MV2. That was my immediate sense after Tuesday’s vote, if only because it may galvanize Tory ‘pragmatists’ to take the gloves off as some threatened. In other words, it may be that more ‘pragmatists’ vote against MV3 than did against MV2, having finally tired of showing the party loyalty that the Ultras disdain. In any case, with party discipline in free fall all round, those pragmatists may realise this is their last chance to avoid the disaster of Brexit and grab it.

How likely do you think this is? Even if they just abstained, rather than voted against, it would be something.

I also think the Woolaston amendment getting shot down yesterday may turn out be a blessing in disguise. It might have lessed the nerves of some twitchy Brexiteeers and make them complacent enough to reject the deal again.

Offline cowtownred

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Wonder how many billions the DUP will ring out of the Tories for their support this time

Never saw the last money did we?  Oh wait, Ian Paisley spent it all.

Offline Zeb

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How likely do you think this is? Even if they just abstained, rather than voted against, it would be something.

I also think the Woolaston amendment getting shot down yesterday may turn out be a blessing in disguise. It might have lessed the nerves of some twitchy Brexiteeers and make them complacent enough to reject the deal again.

Can see it for MV3 - knowing MV4 will follow after indicative votes - but would seem overly hopeful to think they would coalesce around any single outcome during indicative voting?
"And the voices of the standing Kop still whispering in the wind will salute the wee Scots redman and he will still walk on.
And your money will have bought you nothing."

Offline ShakaHislop

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EXCL Nigel Dodds warns Theresa May: We will never waver on our Brexit red lines

Quote
In an interview with The House magazine, the deputy DUP leader said protecting the United Kingdom’s constitutional integrity “remains sacrosanct and above everything else”.

While Mr Dodds said the DUP are in the business of “wanting to get a deal done”, he warned that the party is well versed in negotiations and would not succumb to pressure from outside forces.

He also savaged the Prime Minister's negotiating strategy, branding the decision to trigger Article 50 before having a clear strategy in place a “major mistake”.

The DUP once again voted against the Withdrawal Agreement this week after Geoffrey Cox, the Attorney General, admitted the deal could still see the UK kept in the Irish backstop indefinitely against its will.

Quote
Mr Dodds said his party would consider “very, very carefully” any updates to Mr Cox’s legal advice, but insisted the party would stick to its objective of ensuring Northern Ireland is treated the same as the rest of the UK post-Brexit.

“Our message is that we have set out very clear objectives, we haven’t changed in those objectives and we won’t be changing them because of any kind of deadline. The Government is well aware of that,” he told The House.

“Our primary objective is to ensure that there is – and we’ve said it before, it’s our one red line – that Northern Ireland is not separated off and treated differently in fundamental areas like customs and the single market with the rest of the United Kingdom.

“We have never wavered in that and we will not waver in that red line… that issue of the United Kingdom’s constitutional integrity is of such importance to us that it remains sacrosanct and above everything else.

"We have been talking to the Government about that and we wait to see what happens.”

When asked if he felt pressure to come to a view on Brexit, he replied: “Yes, I’m very conscious of the pressure. Of course, within the Westminster bubble, you feel that pressure very intensely.

“The DUP MPs have long experience of that kind of pressure and are very connected to their constituents and their constituencies back home. So, we have learnt over many years of experiences of how to balance that.

“But we are conscious of our wider responsibilities to the nation. But we believe that that is complementary to our responsibilities to Northern Ireland.

“So, we are in the business of wanting to get a deal done. We were very much behind Geoffrey Cox’s efforts – and the Prime Minister’s efforts – to get the necessary changes.

“We were disappointed and sorry that we weren’t able to support the Government. But Geoffrey’s advice was the clincher for a lot of our MPs when he made it clear that in terms of the backstop that nothing had changed in terms of the legal risk.”

Commenting on the Brexit negotiations, Mr Dodds lamented Mrs May’s decision to accept the EU’s sequencing on talks, branding the decision “catastrophic”.

“The other problem was triggering Article 50 before the Government had actually got its ducks in a row. That was another major mistake,” he continued.

“We did warn the Prime Minister. Of course, the most catastrophic error of all was the decision to accept the Irish protocol back in December [2017] in a political document.”

Mr Dodds called on ministers to revisit paragraph 50 of the Irish protocol, which would ensure that Stormont had a say over any new regulatory barrier between Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK.

“That’s something that they should address now. That’s a pretty important area that they must look at,” he said.

https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/foreign-affairs/brexit/house/house-magazine/102554/excl-nigel-dodds-warns-theresa-may-we

Offline ShakaHislop

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Can see it for MV3 - knowing MV4 will follow after indicative votes - but would seem overly hopeful to think they would coalesce around any single outcome during indicative voting?

The Kyle amendment can offer something for everyone, no? It rules out no deal, is attractive to Remainers for obvious reasons and helps to get the WA passed for soft Brexiteers who believe they can push for soft Brexit in future relationship negotiations?

Offline Zeb

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Mentioned the leaks from the EU tonight, here's Telegraph's Peter Foster with a fuller analysis of the problem.

Quote
The EU is focusing down on its choices for #Article50 extension - but that could create a serious potential for a 'no deal' cliff-edge at end of June. Bear with me.

The EU says it will be "legally unstable" if UK doesn't hold elections/have MEPs.

So that means if we want a long extension, we need to commit to hold EP elections on May 23. That means legislating in UK in April.

This cd put some heat on ERG/Brexiteers to back May deal. BUT

It could also mean that IF May opts for short extension (to June 30) and we go past that April deadline, then May 23 elctions without participating, then there is NO WAY BACK. Eeek.

Because if we get to June 29, and haven't held elections, then (on this basis) that's it.

So imagine this.

May wins MV3, with reluctant ERG votes, by a small margin. Asks for June 30 extension for paperwork to be completed.

Then the ERG revokes support....

From recollection from when this was discussed a few months back, it's 6 weeks minimum to arrange an election*. So the cut off point to revocation would be mid-April. Beyond that Labour will have to abstain to avoid 'no deal' if May doesn't have a majority to pass any remaining legislation etc. Labour rebels' incentive not to be seen as having enabled a Tory Brexit becomes weaker too, which was the point being made on this in the past about how taking the legislation through parliament would be a ballache for both Tories and Labour.

* - could theoretically be shortened by new legislation, but it would have to be cross-party in this instance.
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And your money will have bought you nothing."

Offline Zeb

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The Kyle amendment can offer something for everyone, no? It rules out no deal, is attractive to Remainers for obvious reasons and helps to get the WA passed for soft Brexiteers who believe they can push for soft Brexit in future relationship negotiations?

No incentive to compromise though as both broad sets of supporters in parliament are pretty sure their's is the only true way forward. (Why People's Vote were having their bunfight this week - 'can't have a vote until it's the only option left' etc.) Worth mentioning too that a lot of the 'soft' Brexiters from the Tory side hate the WA as much for keeping us in a customs union as for it keeping us out of the single market.
"And the voices of the standing Kop still whispering in the wind will salute the wee Scots redman and he will still walk on.
And your money will have bought you nothing."

Offline ShakaHislop

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EXCL Jeremy Corbyn may not back bid for second EU referendum until after Brexit deal agreed

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The Labour party is mulling whether to table a People's Vote amendment to the legislation needed to deliver Brexit once a deal between the UK and Brussels is done and dusted.

A source said it would be “difficult to put a proposition to the public before that proposition is agreed” - but such a delay is likely to anger supporters of the so-called ‘People’s Vote’ campaign.

Labour has edged towards backing a second referendum on Brexit after it failed to secure a general election - in line with its official policy agreed at party conference last year.

It has tasked backbenchers Peter Kyle and Phil Wilson to prepare an amendment demanding any Brexit deal agreed by MPs is put to the public in a referendum.

The Hove and Sedgefield MPs are still expecting to table their amendment before the next so-called meaningful vote on the Brexit deal Theresa May brought back from Brussels.

But a Labour source said it would make more sense to push the Commons into backing a referendum once MPs had settled on the withdrawal plan.

“It would be difficult to win support for putting a proposition to the public before that proposition is agreed,” they said.

“It could have the added benefit of being a bid to unite the country - giving it something to coalesce around once the debate on the deal is finished - rather than dividing it further.”

They added: “If the Government passes its deal then it is reasonable to bring it back to the people to make sure they are happy with what is on offer.”

Independent Group MP Chuka Umunna said: "We cannot give the Labour Party's eurosceptic leadership a veto on putting the principle of a People's Vote to the House of Commons because they are running down the clock, just like Theresa May, and will only come out for it when it's too late.

"Under the spirit of the Labour party conference motion on Brexit, they should have been backing a People's Vote weeks ago and yet Jeremy Corbyn continues to betray his members and supporters on this issue which is why many are leaving the party."

But Mr Kyle insisted claims that Labour would wait until after a Brexit deal is agreed before backing a fresh referendum were “categorically not true”.

“Labour will either table an amendment on a confirmatory vote or support Phil and mine, which will go down on, or before, the next meaningful vote,” he said.

“Phil and I will be tabling soon and Labour will be supporting and I have been given nothing to make me believe otherwise.”

https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/political-parties/labour-party/jeremy-corbyn/news/102539/excl-jeremy-corbyn-may-not-back-bid

Offline Zeb

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EXCL Jeremy Corbyn may not back bid for second EU referendum until after Brexit deal agreed

https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/political-parties/labour-party/jeremy-corbyn/news/102539/excl-jeremy-corbyn-may-not-back-bid

Reads like a very clever pisstake of the consequences of Labour's position. "Jez wants to campaign for Leave next time - be a unifying thing for the country, apart from the 2/3+ of the Labour vote who want to Remain."
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And your money will have bought you nothing."

Offline No666

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Mentioned the leaks from the EU tonight, here's Telegraph's Peter Foster with a fuller analysis of the problem.

From recollection from when this was discussed a few months back, it's 6 weeks minimum to arrange an election*. So the cut off point to revocation would be mid-April. Beyond that Labour will have to abstain to avoid 'no deal' if May doesn't have a majority to pass any remaining legislation etc. Labour rebels' incentive not to be seen as having enabled a Tory Brexit becomes weaker too, which was the point being made on this in the past about how taking the legislation through parliament would be a ballache for both Tories and Labour.

* - could theoretically be shortened by new legislation, but it would have to be cross-party in this instance.
I'm sitting in a rainforest trying to follow brexit on rawk so bear with if I've got this wrong: what would there be to stop parliament revoking a50 if the erg decided on the route foster suggests?
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Offline Zeb

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I'm sitting in a rainforest trying to follow brexit on rawk so bear with if I've got this wrong: what would there be to stop parliament revoking a50 if the erg decided on the route foster suggests?

Long and short is that the EU are coming to the view that we can't stay in the EU if we don't take part in the EU Parliament elections so would make an extension with that condition in mind. And once we've past the point of being able to arrange them then May's 'deal' is the only thing left (albeit after a crash out if the ERG get their way). So nothing stopping Parliament revoking Article 50 if everything is sorted before that point but government would have to bypass normal ways of passing bills to try to do that in a fortnight and runs into the problem of needing crossparty support if the ERG were against it.

Enjoy your rainforest. :)
« Last Edit: March 16, 2019, 12:12:15 AM by Zeb »
"And the voices of the standing Kop still whispering in the wind will salute the wee Scots redman and he will still walk on.
And your money will have bought you nothing."

Offline Ghost Town

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I'm not liking the fact that everyone is now looking beyond MV3 and what happens thereafter, as if it's obvious it's going to pass.

Seems there are only three possible sources of hope to kill off the WA:

1) That Bercow Erskine-Mays May
2) That the ERG zealots hold firm and kill Brexit because it isn't their kind of Brexit
3) That Remaininer MPs suddenly grow a backbone as they see the potential for recovation or a PV in site

The situation can best be described as parlous
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Offline oldfordie

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I think theres another argument not being made.
May has no future deal, the leave campaign promised the country we would have a future deal signed before we left the EU. this promise was made on leave campaign leaflets.
The public seem to think Mays got us a deal as our politicians keep using the words Mays deal, she has nothing but promises. this is not just about the WA, this is about our long term relationship with the EU and none of our politicians are hammering this point home yet.
IMO. we have 2 options.
Labour argue for a long transition which will never pass as we are talking 7 yrs+ and then we can have another referendum or we can have a referndum now, Labour already know Mays future deal, it's a disasterous FTA v remain.
The WA is very important and there is no solution to the NI border but we could be in s,, street if the ERG find a get out clause.
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Offline Nobby Reserve

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Hoping to get through on away goals, would indeed be playing a blinder.


A closer analogy would be getting battered over two legs and losing 10-0, but progressing by default because your opponents were subsequently found to have played an ineligible player.
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Offline ShakaHislop

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Brexit: EU says UK no-deal tariff plan is ‘illegal’ under WTO rules

The UK government’s no-deal Brexit tariff plan would be “illegal” under World Trade Organisation rules, the EU commissioner in charge of agriculture has said.

Phil Hogan characterised the British plan, which would see no duties levied on goods entering Northern Ireland across the border, as “a political stunt, pure and simple”.

“Our initial assessment is that the proposal is illegal. It is not compatible with WTO rules and it’s the start of a process where they’ll have to get approvals,” he told reporters in Dublin.

“If they want to operate on the basis of being in defiance of well-established WTO rules well then that’s their decision. But ultimately that will not succeed because they will be taken to a panel of dispute settlement.”

The commissioner, who is Ireland’s member on the EU’s executive, added: “I think the timing of it was unfortunate and it was a deliberate attempt to put Ireland more on the agenda, as if it wasn’t on the agenda already.”

He claimed that the “stunt” was an attempt by the UK to “weaken the unity of the EU26 in relation to the Irish backstop”.

The UK plan would mean that 82 per cent of imports from the EU would be tariff-free, down from 100 per cent now.

Imports from the rest of the world would be 92 per cent tariff-free, up from the current 56 per cent.

The WTO’s “most favoured nation” rule, which the UK would have to follow after Brexit, means that countries must treat other WTO members equally in terms of tariffs and quotas, unless they have a recognised free trade agreement in place.

The UK proposal would kick in if no deal is ratified between the EU and UK, and negotiations are not revoked or extended. If the withdrawal agreement is approved there will be a transition period under which the terms of trade do not change.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-no-deal-tariff-wto-trade-eu-theresa-may-northern-ireland-a8825076.html

Offline ShakaHislop

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Nick Boles: Tory MP quits local party over Brexit

Quote
Tory MP Nick Boles is resigning from his local Conservative association after clashing with them over Brexit.

Mr Boles, who wants to remain as MP for Grantham and Stamford, has spoken out about leaving the EU with no deal.

Local activists had wanted to deselect him as their candidate in the next general election because of his stance.

In his letter, seen by the BBC, he said he was resigning with immediate effect and that a "division had opened up" between him and the local association.

He wrote: "I regret that my relationship with you should end in this way. But a politician without principles is worthless.

"I am in no doubt about my duty, which is to be true to my convictions and to dedicate the rest of my time in Parliament to the best interests of the people I was elected to serve."

Mr Boles said he wanted to continue to "take the Conservative whip" at Westminster if it is offered "on acceptable terms" - meaning he would still vote with the party.

Councillor Martin Hill, vice president of the Grantham and Stamford Conservative Association, told members they had been "betrayed by their parliamentary representative" and called on him to take the "honourable course" and quit as an MP.

He wrote: "As you are all aware, Nick has been at odds with the local party and the prime minister for some time, so this announcement does not come as a complete surprise, but the timing does leave at lot to be desired."

He said the process of selecting a new candidate would start at the group's AGM later this month.

Chief Whip Julian Smith said Mr Boles was a "valued member of the Conservative parliamentary party which I hope will continue to benefit from his ideas and drive".

Quote
Mr Boles had voted in favour of extending Article 50 in the Commons this week, and in favour of Mrs May's Brexit deal.

In his letter, he said: "While I have consistently argued that Brexit must be delivered, and have voted for the prime minister's deal every time she has brought it to the House of Commons, I am certain that crashing out of the EU without a deal would do great harm to the British people and have done everything in my power to prevent it."

Mr Boles said he was "proud" of his role in the cross-party campaign to force Mrs May to request an extension to Article 50 beyond 29 March and block a no-deal Brexit.

"In securing substantial Commons majorities in favour of both propositions last week, I believe we have done the country a great service," he added.

Mr Boles is keen on a closer Norway-style relationship with Europe after leaving the EU.

But Mr Hill told the BBC: "Talk to the man and woman on the street and they're also quite angry that their MP seems to be going back on what he promised to do at the general election. He signed up to the manifesto about coming out of the single market and the customs union."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-47594875

Offline Betty Blue

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"...WTO rules like the rest of the world"

I despair.

https://twitter.com/WombleFree/status/1106868223058866176
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Online Yosser0_0

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I was at my parents the other day, they are both in their 70's and I asked them if would vote differently if there was another referendum and my Dad was saying he probably would because it isn't what he wanted in terms of actually getting out of the EU completely. Was saying that we may as well say in rather than a half in / half out, his fear is that it was becoming a federal Europe and didn't like how much it costs us - cited the benefit payments being paid directly to people living in countries in the EU and he doesn't agree with the freedom of movement. I was saying to him that the UK has exemptions to many of the EU agreements and can influence policy whilst it is a member, something which it can't after leaving. I explained how insignificant the UK has become to the rest of the world as a trading "partner" and the mess the current politicians have been making of the Japan and WTO negotiations. When asked about what the advantages are in leaving, aside from "taking back control" he couldn't come up with one and did concede that we are knackered as a nation in terms of manufacturing, retail etc.

My mum just wants us out now, saying that there is no way that the likes of Spain will suddenly stop sending fruit and veg over, I said they wouldn't be able to without a legal agreement. She said that we don't need anybody anyway, we can be self sufficient, umm, on one hand we need imports from Spain but we don't need anyone?  :o

....What can you do?  :(

To be honest I take anything that my Mum says with a pinch of salt, but my Dad is an intelligent reasonably grounded bloke, although I've never really understood his politics given his background. He's a working class scouser born and bread in Liverpool yet has mainly voted Tory to the best of my knowledge. He hates trade unions and blames them for much of the demise of UK industry, doesn't agree with nationalised industries - apart from the NHS surprisingly. However he does concede that they have made a mess of the buses, trains, utility companies so I don't get what he has against them apart from them being "inefficient" and full of layabouts. I explained to him that British Rail was the most efficient railway system in the world before privatisation and to this day I still can't work out what the benefit was to the taxpayer. After working in and then loosing a couple of jobs in manufacturing, he's been self employed and quite successful, he bought into Thatchers policies such as "get on your bike" and I think she was a bit of a hero for him. Our discussions about Thatcher can get quite heated and we tend to leave that subject alone nowadays!  ;D

Each to their own I suppose.   
« Last Edit: March 16, 2019, 02:01:05 PM by Yosser0_0 »
Lee Trevino famously once held up a long iron during a lightning storm, claiming "not even God can hit a 1-iron"

Offline a treeless whopper

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"...WTO rules like the rest of the world"

I despair.

https://twitter.com/WombleFree/status/1106868223058866176

Dedication having a WTO argument in a field when its pissing it down with rain and windy.

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If you fancy a giggle take a look at #MarchToLeave on twitter
all 30 of them...

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Snip

You're brave mate there's no way I could have a conversation with my family about Brexit, they all voted to leave with me the only remainer.
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all 30 of them...

Well, it looks like they're doing this march in the 1980s Soviet Union. Can't blame people for not turning up for that... ;)

Online Yosser0_0

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You're brave mate there's no way I could have a conversation with my family about Brexit, they all voted to leave with me the only remainer.

I'm trying to gauge the feeling at the moment as there's been a lot of water under the bridge and peoples views change. You do need to be careful how you approach the discussion though. Are your family also working class?
Lee Trevino famously once held up a long iron during a lightning storm, claiming "not even God can hit a 1-iron"

Offline Welshred

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I'm trying to gauge the feeling at the moment as there's been a lot of water under the bridge and peoples views change. You do need to be careful how you approach the discussion though. Are your family also working class?

Yeah, south Wales valleys for pretty much their whole lives. All I see and hear is anti-EU sentiment from all my family which is depressing.
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Offline Iska

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I made the mistake of being near my family recently when the subject came up, I exploded after about five seconds, and felt a right dick because I’m engaged in a totally different way to them so my rage seemed massively disproportionate.  Sat on my hands thereafter.  One just enjoys gossiping about the personalities and the spectacle, the others want brexit but on the basis that a decision’s been made so it’s got to be seen through.  I suspect that’s probably fairly representative of the general public.

I daren’t ask what anybody really thinks of the issue itself, in case I end up despising them.

Online Yosser0_0

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Yeah, south Wales valleys for pretty much their whole lives. All I see and hear is anti-EU sentiment from all my family which is depressing.

My granddad came from the Rhondda valley and the family moved to Liverpool for work - I believe that's where our family's "stubborn" gene is inherited from. The Irish blood provides our rebellious side!  ;D
Lee Trevino famously once held up a long iron during a lightning storm, claiming "not even God can hit a 1-iron"

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UK, Survation poll:

EU membership ref

Remain: 53% (+1)
Leave: 47% (-1)

+/- vs. 18 Feb. '19

Field work: 15/03/19
Sample size: 794

There are none so blind as those who will not see. I'm convinced that leave would win again in the unlikely event there is another referendum.
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UK, Survation poll:

EU membership ref

Remain: 53% (+1)
Leave: 47% (-1)

+/- vs. 18 Feb. '19

Field work: 15/03/19
Sample size: 794

There are none so blind as those who will not see. I'm convinced that leave would win again in the unlikely event there is another referendum.

Agree.

Offline thejbs

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If remain was to win a second ref it would be down to new votes rather than converted leavers. It would be close, but I think remain has the edge.

Offline rob1966

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"...WTO rules like the rest of the world"

I despair.

https://twitter.com/WombleFree/status/1106868223058866176

The major flaw in the whole referendum right there, allowing someone who knows nothing about what they are voting for to vote on it, then carrying it out even though it is to his and everyone elses detriment - except the rich.

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If remain was to win a second ref it would be down to new votes rather than converted leavers. It would be close, but I think remain has the edge.

Disagree a bit on that.

First, a number people were stupid in the first vote, and have acknowledged they were stupid.  They either didn't understand what they were voting on or used the opportunity to register a ridiculous protest vote.

Second, any number of Remainers didn't actually bother to vote as they thought the result was a shoe in.  I imagine they will not be so complacent a second time around.

I'm not saying it wouldn't be a close vote, but I do believe Remain are more than capable of winning with a far larger margin than Leave did last time out.
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