Poll

RAWK and Brexit

No Deal!
65 (8.8%)
Mays Deal!
14 (1.9%)
No Brexit!
538 (72.8%)
Don't Know
10 (1.4%)
Don't Care
15 (2%)
I don't live in the UK
97 (13.1%)

Total Members Voted: 739

Author Topic: Brexit: "Vultus inanis est et mori in fossa ego sum!"  (Read 998084 times)

Offline redbyrdz

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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #80 on: August 30, 2018, 08:41:14 AM »
At least we will be able to trade with Africa.





Funny how even countries like Kenya are part of a bloc trading group....
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Offline Gerry Attrick

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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #81 on: August 30, 2018, 09:12:55 AM »
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-45351288

Who needs Panasonic jobs anyway. Having control of our borders is plenty enough to put food on the table.

Offline rob19:6 "And yeah doth the Lord liketh trucking."

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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #82 on: August 30, 2018, 09:31:12 AM »
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-45351288

Who needs Panasonic jobs anyway. Having control of our borders is plenty enough to put food on the table.

Its ok, they can all train to be doctors and nurses and can pick fruit while they study.

Offline Zeb

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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #83 on: August 30, 2018, 09:36:56 AM »
Darkly funny that the reason for the move is that the Japanese aren't keen on being left on an island tax haven outside of the EU. Or the very thing the Brexiteers are so keen on us being in the future.

Still, this is all baked in now with the government incapable of both setting out and delivering anything based in the real world. It's all going to boil down to what fudge is possible for the Irish border, bouncing that through parliament as a Withdrawal Agreement to take us into transition, and then everyone putting on their best thinking caps praying public opinion shifts lest we continue these very same discussions for another couple of years.
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Offline ShakaHislop

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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #84 on: August 30, 2018, 09:37:50 AM »
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-45351288

Who needs Panasonic jobs anyway. Having control of our borders is plenty enough to put food on the table.

Amsterdam enjoying the Brexit dividend.

Offline dptlfc83

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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #85 on: August 30, 2018, 10:02:43 AM »
So this is the latest blinder by Rees-Mogg.

Have people inspected at Irish border after Brexit, says Rees-Mogg

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/aug/26/have-people-inspected-at-irish-border-after-brexit-says-jacob-rees-mogg



Jacob Rees-Mogg has sparked a fresh row about the status of the Irish border after Brexit after a video emerged in which he suggests a return to checks “as we had during the Troubles”.

The Conservative MP is seen on the footage from the public meeting suggesting the government could “keep an eye on” the border.

“Ireland would not be a free for all. It would be perfectly possible to continue with historic arrangements to ensure that there wasn’t a great loophole in the way people can get into the UK, to leave us in as bad a position as we are already in,” Rees-Mogg says.

“There would be our ability, as we had during the Troubles, to have people inspected. It’s not a border that everyone has to go through every day, but of course for security reasons during the Troubles, we kept a very close eye on the border, to try and stop gun-running and things like that.”

The shadow Brexit secretary, Keir Starmer, was sharply critical of his comments. “This man knows nothing of Northern Ireland,” he said.

Ireland’s deputy prime minister, Simon Coveney, tweeted:


------------------------------------


Simon Coveney

@simoncoveney

It’s hard to believe that a senior politician is so ill informed about Ireland + the politics of the #Brexit Irish border issue that he could make comments like these. We have left “the troubles” behind us, through the sincere efforts of many, + we intend on keeping it that way.


------------------------------------

Rees-Mogg has previously been criticised for saying he did not need to visit Northern Ireland to understand the challenges Brexit posed for communities on the border.

His comments, earlier this year, were described as arrogant and judgmental by people living there. In an interview with BBC Northern Ireland, he said: “I don’t think my visiting the border is really going give me a fundamental insight into the border beyond what one can get by studying it.”

The Sinn Féin politician Mártín Ó Muilleoir, South Belfast MLA, said Rees-Mogg’s comments on the border after Brexit showed “contempt and complete disregard for the people of Ireland north and south, through the ridiculous suggestion of a ‘technological border’.

“Anyone labouring under the misapprehension that the Tories care a jot about the north is living in a fool’s paradise.”

The status of the Irish border remains one of the toughest sticking points in the UK’s negotiations on a withdrawal agreement with the EU.

Theresa May has said no UK prime minister could accept the EU’s proposal, for Northern Ireland effectively to remain in the customs union and the single market, with the rest of the UK outside – requiring a border in the Irish Sea.

The EU for its part regards Britain’s solution of a “facilitated customs arrangement”as unworkable.

The Cabinet Office minister, David Lidington, acknowledged on Friday that the October deadline once regarded as the end-date for the Brexit negotiations could now slip to November.



Tensions among senior Conservatives in cabinet were also exposed at the weekend, as the Brexit secretary, Dominic Raab, played down the significance of Treasury forecasts suggesting a no-deal Brexit would blow an £80bn hole in public finances.

“I’m always wary of any forecast, because most of them have been proved to be wrong,” he told the Sunday Times.

As May battles to complete a deal, Rees-Mogg is leading a vocal group of Conservative MPs calling on the party to “chuck Chequers”, the negotiating position painstakingly agreed by cabinet at their July awayday.

They are keen to play down the significance of avoiding a hard border in Ireland, which they believe has driven the logic of the push toward a softer Brexit.

Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson told MPs in his resignation speech, after he rejected the Chequers deal: “We allowed the question of the Northern Irish border, which had hitherto been assumed on all sides to be readily soluble, to become so politically charged as to dominate the debate.”

Surely there will have to be boarder control in Ireland, I can't see how there can't be. If it leads to problems/trouble, then that's the fault of those who promoted and voted for brexit. They should have engaged their brains.


Offline rob19:6 "And yeah doth the Lord liketh trucking."

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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #86 on: August 30, 2018, 10:18:54 AM »
Surely there will have to be boarder control in Ireland, I can't see how there can't be. If it leads to problems/trouble, then that's the fault of those who promoted and voted for brexit. They should have engaged their brains.



EU rules state that there must be a permanent, manned border between an EU member state and a non EU state. It's not something they were unaware of, its always been like that.

Those who want this couldn't give a fuck about Ireland, potential trouble or anything, they just want to either make more money or drive on to some idealistic nonsense of an England that never existed.

Offline So... Howard Phillips

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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #87 on: August 30, 2018, 10:23:40 AM »
EU rules state that there must be a permanent, manned border between an EU member state and a non EU state. It's not something they were unaware of, its always been like that.

Those who want this couldn't give a fuck about Ireland, potential trouble or anything, they just want to either make more money or drive on to some idealistic nonsense of an England that never existed.

Don't you mean the England that existed when Edward the VII was on the throne?

Offline redbyrdz

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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #88 on: August 30, 2018, 10:29:15 AM »
EU rules state that there must be a permanent, manned border between an EU member state and a non EU state. It's not something they were unaware of, its always been like that.

Those who want this couldn't give a fuck about Ireland, potential trouble or anything, they just want to either make more money or drive on to some idealistic nonsense of an England that never existed.


There will be a hard border in Ireland, unless NI stays in at least the EEA (in which case say goodbye to just walking onto the Belfast ferry). There is no 'deal' to be had there. It will be an external EU border, and they will protect it. If the UK doesn't want border guards on the British side, that's up to them, but there will be on the other side.
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Offline rob19:6 "And yeah doth the Lord liketh trucking."

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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #89 on: August 30, 2018, 10:46:03 AM »

There will be a hard border in Ireland, unless NI stays in at least the EEA (in which case say goodbye to just walking onto the Belfast ferry). There is no 'deal' to be had there. It will be an external EU border, and they will protect it. If the UK doesn't want border guards on the British side, that's up to them, but there will be on the other side.

I'm just listening to James O'Brien on LBC, talking about teaching and a science teacher was saying how people these days just will not accept reasoned arguments, they believe in soundbites, one line answers, if they do not have the ability to understand your reasoned argument, then they won't believe you. NI is the same, we all know the EU will implement their rules in their member state, Dublin has no choice in this matter. Once again, those shouting "we don't want a hard border, so we won't implement one" get more credence than those who speak about cold hard facts.


Offline SlowRap

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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #90 on: August 30, 2018, 10:53:49 AM »
I'm just listening to James O'Brien on LBC, talking about teaching and a science teacher was saying how people these days just will not accept reasoned arguments, they believe in soundbites, one line answers, if they do not have the ability to understand your reasoned argument, then they won't believe you. NI is the same, we all know the EU will implement their rules in their member state, Dublin has no choice in this matter. Once again, those shouting "we don't want a hard border, so we won't implement one" get more credence than those who speak about cold hard facts.
So the EU will force Ireland to implement a hard border? A member's club forcing action on a sovereign country?

Has the pro Brexit lad been banned permanently? He at least brought something different to the topic and we could engage and try to understand why he thinks what he does and at least attempt to change his mind, right now this thread is taking the same turn as the trump topic whereby we paste a msm link and we all sit and tut over how bad things are.
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Offline dptlfc83

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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #91 on: August 30, 2018, 10:56:41 AM »
EU rules state that there must be a permanent, manned border between an EU member state and a non EU state. It's not something they were unaware of, its always been like that.

Those who want this couldn't give a fuck about Ireland, potential trouble or anything, they just want to either make more money or drive on to some idealistic nonsense of an England that never existed.

I'd bet big money that a huge proportion of those who voted to leave never even thought about the Irish implications of leaving. I'm pretty sure the leave campaign didn't inform us of this issue either.

Offline Corkboy

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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #92 on: August 30, 2018, 11:05:52 AM »
So the EU will force Ireland to implement a hard border? A member's club forcing action on a sovereign country?

Ireland will do it because it's part of our duties as a responsible member of the EU. Nobody is forcing us, we signed up for this and we certainly don't need your faux concern.

Offline Corkboy

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Offline rob19:6 "And yeah doth the Lord liketh trucking."

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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #94 on: August 30, 2018, 11:11:13 AM »
So the EU will force Ireland to implement a hard border? A member's club forcing action on a sovereign country?

Has the pro Brexit lad been banned permanently? He at least brought something different to the topic and we could engage and try to understand why he thinks what he does and at least attempt to change his mind, right now this thread is taking the same turn as the trump topic whereby we paste a msm link and we all sit and tut over how bad things are.

Report on 3 different borders and the delays in getting goods through in the EU https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-44054594

It's not forcing anything, its the rules they signed up to and as a member state, they will enforce the rules. While there is no current non EU land border, the UK still has borders for EU residents due to us not being in the Schengen and Non EU people, and goods. Goods from the US for example, if they are over £15, have to go through customs and taxes have to be paid. Ireland already works as an immigration clearing area for entry into the USA if you fly.

Offline redtel

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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #95 on: August 30, 2018, 11:27:04 AM »
I'd bet big money that a huge proportion of those who voted to leave never even thought about the Irish implications of leaving. I'm pretty sure the leave campaign didn't inform us of this issue either.

Your bet would be a winner but the odds would mean you would get little profit.

The leave campaign wanted an uninformed vote, hence the false promises and lies which were told.
Cameron and remainers didn't try at all to provide the masses with info on such things as the Irish border and the Remain leaders should hang their heads in shame.

We will get the kind of country we deserve after our Parliament and MPs presided over a vote that most of us made without knowing hardly any facts about a future outside the EU. I gave up trying to argue with many friends and neighbours who said they wanted us to leave.

Offline oldfordie

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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #96 on: August 30, 2018, 11:34:29 AM »
So the EU will force Ireland to implement a hard border? A member's club forcing action on a sovereign country?

Has the pro Brexit lad been banned permanently? He at least brought something different to the topic and we could engage and try to understand why he thinks what he does and at least attempt to change his mind, right now this thread is taking the same turn as the trump topic whereby we paste a msm link and we all sit and tut over how bad things are.
The EU have said they will back the Republic whatever it decides.
We are leaving the EU to take back control, we have no control over what the republic decides, the Republic is obliged to follow EU rules that protect the integrity of the single market, nobody has brought up the WTO position yet, if you are going to point the finger at the EU for not respecting Sovereignty then you have to point it at the WTO as well as they insist on borders as well to protect the integrity of the WTO market. do we leave the WTO now?
There's a pro Brexit thread open now if any leave supporters want to make any claims of being better off. not many takers, even the leave campaigners aren't arguing we will be better off now. so we did try to change his mind by explaining why he was wrong on certain points. do you really think it's possible to change a hard core leave voters mind. have you ever heard a leave voters say, good point, yeah,I got my facts wrong their. nope, they just ignore your points and come out with more shite.
 We know why most leave voters think the way they do, they want to leave the EU for a particular reason. Immigration or Sovereignty but they want to make a stronger argument to justify their opinion, they search out any shite argument that supports leaving the EU. they embarrass themselves exposing their ignorance on QT every week.


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Offline smicer07

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Offline Kashinoda

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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #98 on: August 30, 2018, 11:41:23 AM »
Meanwhile....

Panasonic to move Europe headquarters from UK to Amsterdam.

Playing Devil's Advocate here - it's 20 jobs in all fairness, and it's to avoid paying tax in Japan. Ironically because they'll have to pay less when we leave the EU.

We still lose out, of course.  :wave
:D

Offline rob19:6 "And yeah doth the Lord liketh trucking."

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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #99 on: August 30, 2018, 12:05:40 PM »
Playing Devil's Advocate here - it's 20 jobs in all fairness, and it's to avoid paying tax in Japan. Ironically because they'll have to pay less when we leave the EU.

We still lose out, of course.  :wave

It's the implications for the other Japanese firms that is the main concern. If it will apply to Panasonic, does the same also apply to Nissan, Honda and Toyota? That's a million jobs we are talking about here, in the factories and the supply chain.

Offline Zeb

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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #100 on: August 30, 2018, 12:12:41 PM »
The EU have said they will back the Republic whatever it decides.
We are leaving the EU to take back control, we have no control over what the republic decides, the Republic is obliged to follow EU rules that protect the integrity of the single market, nobody has brought up the WTO position yet, if you are going to point the finger at the EU for not respecting Sovereignty then you have to point it at the WTO as well as they insist on borders as well to protect the integrity of the WTO market. do we leave the WTO now?
There's a pro Brexit thread open now if any leave supporters want to make any claims of being better off. not many takers, even the leave campaigners aren't arguing we will be better off now. so we did try to change his mind by explaining why he was wrong on certain points. do you really think it's possible to change a hard core leave voters mind. have you ever heard a leave voters say, good point, yeah,I got my facts wrong their. nope, they just ignore your points and come out with more shite.
 We know why most leave voters think the way they do, they want to leave the EU for a particular reason. Immigration or Sovereignty but they want to make a stronger argument to justify their opinion, they search out any shite argument that supports leaving the EU. they embarrass themselves exposing their ignorance on QT every week.

Just on the WTO side of things, we could of course refuse to implement whatever we should and wait for the slow mechanisms of the WTO to catch up. But the side effect of that will be a loss of goodwill in any future trade deals we would hope to sign - if we can't fulfill one set of obligations, who will gamble on us living up to another? It's a fine thing to willy wave sovereignty but truthfully setting out the consequences for potential choices seems less fashionable.
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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #101 on: August 30, 2018, 12:21:35 PM »
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-45351288

Who needs Panasonic jobs anyway. Having control of our borders is plenty enough to put food on the table.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-45351288

Who needs Panasonic jobs anyway. Having control of our borders is plenty enough to put food on the table.

This is hilarious:

Panasonic's decision was driven by a fear that Japan could start considering the UK a tax haven if it cuts corporate tax rates to attract business, Mr Abadie told the Nikkei Asian Review newspaper.
If Panasonic ends up paying less tax in the UK, that could render it liable for a bigger tax bill in Japan.


So Corporation tax cuts might actually drive companies away. Genius.
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Offline oldfordie

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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #102 on: August 30, 2018, 01:13:20 PM »
Just on the WTO side of things, we could of course refuse to implement whatever we should and wait for the slow mechanisms of the WTO to catch up. But the side effect of that will be a loss of goodwill in any future trade deals we would hope to sign - if we can't fulfill one set of obligations, who will gamble on us living up to another? It's a fine thing to willy wave sovereignty but truthfully setting out the consequences for potential choices seems less fashionable.

This is another issue that needs clarifying, say we do ignore WTO tariff rates etc and wave through goods from the EU tariff free or reduced, how will the WTO react, afaik, they will insist we treat every other WTO country the same, if we have no trade deal with the EU and we don't charge the WTO tariff then we can't charge a tariffs on goods coming from any other WTO country in the world as well. this is a massive point.
We are now going to go around the world asking for trade deals. every country will say no thanks, we are fine as we are. they will have no incentive to sign trade deals as they have the best deal of all, they can export into the UK without their goods paying a tariff.
The Sovereignty argument pisses me off to be honest. many argue it's the principle that matters, nobody should tell us what to do. I don't think they fully appreciate why we need to compromise with the rest of Europe, compromise on agreeing on values to protect us in all sorts of areas, protect us from lower standards right across the board in all areas that actually affect our lives daily, they are in place to give us a better standard of living and more protection from exploitation in all areas of our lives, ask a leave voter what EU law makes their life worse which law would you change and it's very rare you will get a answer except it's the principle.
These EU laws we value costs money so the Sovereignty principle now leaves the door wide open to a race to the bottom society like never before, our government and bosses can now begin to think of what can we cut back on to save money and reduce costs. no EU law stopping them once we leave.
Rees- Mogg said, he sees no reason why the British worker can't work under the same conditions as workers in India after brexit, people should be horrified by that statement. the working class are their own worst enemy.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2018, 01:18:10 PM by oldfordie »
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Offline dptlfc83

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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #103 on: August 30, 2018, 01:23:53 PM »
Your bet would be a winner but the odds would mean you would get little profit.

The leave campaign wanted an uninformed vote, hence the false promises and lies which were told.
Cameron and remainers didn't try at all to provide the masses with info on such things as the Irish border and the Remain leaders should hang their heads in shame.

We will get the kind of country we deserve after our Parliament and MPs presided over a vote that most of us made without knowing hardly any facts about a future outside the EU. I gave up trying to argue with many friends and neighbours who said they wanted us to leave.

There's no point in arguing with people about it, people are too entrenched in the views. But you're right on the remain leaders not doing enough to spell out in simple terms some of the bigger issues of leaving.

I do think tho that things won't be as bad as portrayed in some parts of the media. There'll not be mass job losses, blackouts, food shortages or grounded planes.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2018, 03:59:49 PM by dptlfc83 »

Offline ShakaHislop

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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #104 on: August 30, 2018, 02:15:17 PM »
May refusing to say that Britain will be better off as a result of Brexit.

https://twitter.com/Haggis_UK/status/1035115247030464512

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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #105 on: August 30, 2018, 02:24:41 PM »

This is another issue that needs clarifying, say we do ignore WTO tariff rates etc and wave through goods from the EU tariff free or reduced, how will the WTO react, afaik, they will insist we treat every other WTO country the same, if we have no trade deal with the EU and we don't charge the WTO tariff then we can't charge a tariffs on goods coming from any other WTO country in the world as well. this is a massive point.
We are now going to go around the world asking for trade deals. every country will say no thanks, we are fine as we are. they will have no incentive to sign trade deals as they have the best deal of all, they can export into the UK without their goods paying a tariff.
The Sovereignty argument pisses me off to be honest. many argue it's the principle that matters, nobody should tell us what to do. I don't think they fully appreciate why we need to compromise with the rest of Europe, compromise on agreeing on values to protect us in all sorts of areas, protect us from lower standards right across the board in all areas that actually affect our lives daily, they are in place to give us a better standard of living and more protection from exploitation in all areas of our lives, ask a leave voter what EU law makes their life worse which law would you change and it's very rare you will get a answer except it's the principle.
These EU laws we value costs money so the Sovereignty principle now leaves the door wide open to a race to the bottom society like never before, our government and bosses can now begin to think of what can we cut back on to save money and reduce costs. no EU law stopping them once we leave.
Rees- Mogg said, he sees no reason why the British worker can't work under the same conditions as workers in India after brexit, people should be horrified by that statement. the working class are their own worst enemy.

I actually have a fair bit of sympathy for the arguments around sovereignty. It's just reconciling that to practical reality gets messy. Like you say, it's about compromises to achieve certain objectives in an interconnected world. There's an argument that some/many(?) Leavers are motivated by a desire to remove themselves/the country from that set of choices and consequences. It's the old Bennite idea that Britain can pull up the drawbridge to the things we don't want while lowering it for the things we do. Which works with a global Empire set up around that idea, I suppose. One area where the sovereignty argument is going to play a huge part is in the idea of dispute resolution in our future relationship with the EU. Lords' summary of some of the issues. eg How do we have a 'neutral' arbiter when the EU, by their own rules, can only accept rulings from the EU Court of Justice? Or what about somewhere like Northern Ireland where we're going to replace two forms of rights holders (ie EU/Irish/Brit and Non-EU) with up to nine, many of whom will be able to appeal to the EU courts over the top of the UK's if we're to maintain the Good Friday Agreement?

Actually framing the counterargument in equally simple terms to the "rules takers vs rules makers" line is tough though, and that's part of the problem I suppose. As we've discussed in threads past about needing a narrative and vision for Britain rather than 'just' pointing out the mess Brexiters seem determined to make.
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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #106 on: August 30, 2018, 03:48:52 PM »
I actually have a fair bit of sympathy for the arguments around sovereignty. It's just reconciling that to practical reality gets messy. Like you say, it's about compromises to achieve certain objectives in an interconnected world. There's an argument that some/many(?) Leavers are motivated by a desire to remove themselves/the country from that set of choices and consequences. It's the old Bennite idea that Britain can pull up the drawbridge to the things we don't want while lowering it for the things we do. Which works with a global Empire set up around that idea, I suppose. One area where the sovereignty argument is going to play a huge part is in the idea of dispute resolution in our future relationship with the EU. Lords' summary of some of the issues. eg How do we have a 'neutral' arbiter when the EU, by their own rules, can only accept rulings from the EU Court of Justice? Or what about somewhere like Northern Ireland where we're going to replace two forms of rights holders (ie EU/Irish/Brit and Non-EU) with up to nine, many of whom will be able to appeal to the EU courts over the top of the UK's if we're to maintain the Good Friday Agreement?

Actually framing the counterargument in equally simple terms to the "rules takers vs rules makers" line is tough though, and that's part of the problem I suppose. As we've discussed in threads past about needing a narrative and vision for Britain rather than 'just' pointing out the mess Brexiters seem determined to make.

I believe this is the nub of the issue.

I wouldn’t call myself a reluctant remainer. But my enthusiasm for remaining was not without misgivings about some aspects of E.U membership.

Which is to say that the issues are complex. And their complexity requires voters and politicians to be thorough in weighing pros and cons, honest in assessing difficulties, and scrupulous when reporting facts.

The debate before and since the referendum has been largely devoid of these things. As we have witnessed both sides of the Atlantic, we now appear to inhabit an age where reason has been replaced by fear, lies, hubris, nationalism, scapegoating and sound bites.
"The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology...as long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth." Mikhail Bakunin

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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #107 on: August 30, 2018, 04:19:23 PM »
I actually have a fair bit of sympathy for the arguments around sovereignty. It's just reconciling that to practical reality gets messy. Like you say, it's about compromises to achieve certain objectives in an interconnected world. There's an argument that some/many(?) Leavers are motivated by a desire to remove themselves/the country from that set of choices and consequences. It's the old Bennite idea that Britain can pull up the drawbridge to the things we don't want while lowering it for the things we do. Which works with a global Empire set up around that idea, I suppose. One area where the sovereignty argument is going to play a huge part is in the idea of dispute resolution in our future relationship with the EU. Lords' summary of some of the issues. eg How do we have a 'neutral' arbiter when the EU, by their own rules, can only accept rulings from the EU Court of Justice? Or what about somewhere like Northern Ireland where we're going to replace two forms of rights holders (ie EU/Irish/Brit and Non-EU) with up to nine, many of whom will be able to appeal to the EU courts over the top of the UK's if we're to maintain the Good Friday Agreement?

Actually framing the counterargument in equally simple terms to the "rules takers vs rules makers" line is tough though, and that's part of the problem I suppose. As we've discussed in threads past about needing a narrative and vision for Britain rather than 'just' pointing out the mess Brexiters seem determined to make.
I think the argument on Sovereignty while we are in the EU and a trade deal that will give us a neutral arbitrator to settle disputes after we leave are 2 separate arguments.
Yeah, I can see Mays point of view on relying on EJC rulings won't give us a neutral arbitrator after we leave the EU. it has nothing to do with the argument on Soverignty while we are in the EU though.
The implications of not finding another way of solving disputes is massive, it is a real concern as it will bring about many project fear predictions, many of us raised these predictions to point out why we have to find solutions, I never believed they would actually happen because I never expected us to stand so firm on ECJ rulings. I actually said many times she will have to give in on ECJ as the implications are massive. I think theres a far bigger chance of project fear happening now, if we don't get things sorted quickly then we will run out of time.
It still might not happen but it will unless we find a solution quickly.
If we don't find solutions then companies will be breaking laws, the planes will be grounded. everyone will say this is madness and it will be but it will still make no difference. wanting it not to happen and stopping it from happening is the problem.
People are still thinking nobody wants project fear predictions to happen so it won't happen. it's a bit more complicated than that, if we don't find solutions on arbitration then things will grind to halt as companies will be breaking laws. they wont be able to operate under the law.
I posted a video of Benn months ago arguing why the EU will give us what we want if we leave. he made the they need us more than we need them argument. he has been proved wrong on that argument.
None of us know all the ins and outs on all the EU rules and regulations. it's how we look at it I suppose. I always wonder why they've come up with the regulation. theres intention behind the rule, it's there for a reason, it's not something sinister the EU are forcing upon us for no reason. I think that's one of the biggest difference between remain and leave voters. they view the EU as sinister, forcing these rules on us while I think theres a reason for this rule. if am interested I will do some research why they have the rule.
The best example is protectionism. Frottage etc telling everyone protectionism is bad. tariffs from outside the EU are bad. people never gave it much thought, it sounds a logical argument, what can possibly be wrong with cheaper goods coming into the country, well we have tariffs to protect our standard of living, we don't have them to give us a lower standard of living. we have to earn, we have to be employed to have a decent standard of living, we are now going to be competing with lowly paid workers in bad working conditions and poor workers rights, the British worker will be forced to take pay cuts in years to come, their rights and conditions at work will be tossed in the bin as they will have to be more competitive to survive. protectionism isn't as sinister as many people believe.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2018, 04:24:37 PM by oldfordie »
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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #108 on: August 30, 2018, 04:23:41 PM »
I believe this is the nub of the issue.

I wouldn’t call myself a reluctant remainer. But my enthusiasm for remaining was not without misgivings about some aspects of E.U membership.

Which is to say that the issues are complex. And their complexity requires voters and politicians to be thorough in weighing pros and cons, honest in assessing difficulties, and scrupulous when reporting facts.

The debate before and since the referendum has been largely devoid of these things. As we have witnessed both sides of the Atlantic, we now appear to inhabit an age where reason has been replaced by fear, lies, hubris, nationalism, scapegoating and sound bites.

Are you saying you regret your vote to remain?

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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #109 on: August 30, 2018, 04:54:55 PM »
Are you saying you regret your vote to remain?

Certainly not. If I gave that impression my piece was poorly presented.
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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #110 on: August 30, 2018, 05:02:47 PM »
Certainly not. If I gave that impression my piece was poorly presented.

My mistake.

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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #111 on: August 30, 2018, 07:00:55 PM »
So the EU will force Ireland to implement a hard border? A member's club forcing action on a sovereign country?

Has the pro Brexit lad been banned permanently? He at least brought something different to the topic and we could engage and try to understand why he thinks what he does and at least attempt to change his mind, right now this thread is taking the same turn as the trump topic whereby we paste a msm link and we all sit and tut over how bad things are.


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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #112 on: August 30, 2018, 08:08:08 PM »
Have just seen this on Twitter.

https://twitter.com/colinrtalbot/status/1035180037220261888?s=21

In short, I do hope airports have put in bulk orders for pop up beds.
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Offline Alan_X

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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #113 on: August 30, 2018, 10:34:43 PM »
So the EU will force Ireland to implement a hard border? A member's club forcing action on a sovereign country?

The EU is forcing nothing. The UK is forcing the issue because they are leaving 'the club' but want to pretend they're still in.

1. Stay in the EU - no hard border.
2. Leave the EU with different customs arrangements on either side of the border - hard border.

It's an inevitable consequence of hard Brexit.

It's nothing to do with sovereignty. That's just a moronic dog-whistle argument designed to stir up the passions of idiots. Sovereignty doesn't mean you can do what the fuck you want with zero consequences.

If you come round to my house and exert your sovereign right to shit on my carpet there will be consequences.

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Offline Alan_X

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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #114 on: August 30, 2018, 10:38:47 PM »
Have just seen this on Twitter.

https://twitter.com/colinrtalbot/status/1035180037220261888?s=21

In short, I do hope airports have put in bulk orders for pop up beds.

The whole fucking thing is based on the misguided conviction that if the consequences are catastrophic, then someone, somewhere, somehow will make it not happen. It's criminally negligent.
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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #115 on: August 30, 2018, 11:55:13 PM »
Looks like it's too late to hold another referendum before we leave, the only option is to try and get a extension to Art 50 to give us time to sort out our problems and still keep the option of holding another referendum before we leave.
Will the EU agree to this extension, maybe but they may argue that's what the transitions for and say no, the transition may not happen as nobody can solve the NI border problem.

Meanwhile, Liam Fox who claimed that getting a deal would be the easiest thing in human history now says if we don't get a deal don't blame me.


This implies that, were legislation introduced the day parliament returned from the party conference recess, on 9 October, the earliest Thursday on which a referendum could be held would be 28 March – the very day before exit day. Of course, the introduction of legislation so soon is very unlikely, and there is plenty of scope for delays along the way. Hence, to hold a referendum, Article 50 would almost certainly need to be extended and exit day postponed. This is certainly legally possible. Whether it is also politically feasible is widely discussed and is a matter that we will return to in a future post.
https://constitution-unit.com/2018/08/30/how-long-would-it-take-to-hold-a-second-referendum-on-brexit/
« Last Edit: August 31, 2018, 12:20:49 AM by oldfordie »
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Offline Zeb

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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #116 on: August 31, 2018, 12:26:23 AM »
I think the argument on Sovereignty while we are in the EU and a trade deal that will give us a neutral arbitrator to settle disputes after we leave are 2 separate arguments.
Yeah, I can see Mays point of view on relying on EJC rulings won't give us a neutral arbitrator after we leave the EU. it has nothing to do with the argument on Soverignty while we are in the EU though.
The implications of not finding another way of solving disputes is massive, it is a real concern as it will bring about many project fear predictions, many of us raised these predictions to point out why we have to find solutions, I never believed they would actually happen because I never expected us to stand so firm on ECJ rulings. I actually said many times she will have to give in on ECJ as the implications are massive. I think theres a far bigger chance of project fear happening now, if we don't get things sorted quickly then we will run out of time.
It still might not happen but it will unless we find a solution quickly.
If we don't find solutions then companies will be breaking laws, the planes will be grounded. everyone will say this is madness and it will be but it will still make no difference. wanting it not to happen and stopping it from happening is the problem.
People are still thinking nobody wants project fear predictions to happen so it won't happen. it's a bit more complicated than that, if we don't find solutions on arbitration then things will grind to halt as companies will be breaking laws. they wont be able to operate under the law.
I posted a video of Benn months ago arguing why the EU will give us what we want if we leave. he made the they need us more than we need them argument. he has been proved wrong on that argument.
None of us know all the ins and outs on all the EU rules and regulations. it's how we look at it I suppose. I always wonder why they've come up with the regulation. theres intention behind the rule, it's there for a reason, it's not something sinister the EU are forcing upon us for no reason. I think that's one of the biggest difference between remain and leave voters. they view the EU as sinister, forcing these rules on us while I think theres a reason for this rule. if am interested I will do some research why they have the rule.
The best example is protectionism. Frottage etc telling everyone protectionism is bad. tariffs from outside the EU are bad. people never gave it much thought, it sounds a logical argument, what can possibly be wrong with cheaper goods coming into the country, well we have tariffs to protect our standard of living, we don't have them to give us a lower standard of living. we have to earn, we have to be employed to have a decent standard of living, we are now going to be competing with lowly paid workers in bad working conditions and poor workers rights, the British worker will be forced to take pay cuts in years to come, their rights and conditions at work will be tossed in the bin as they will have to be more competitive to survive. protectionism isn't as sinister as many people believe.


Just on the first part there, it is the same argument to the likes of Mogg and Farage - it's all wrapped up in "taking back control" and riffs on that theme. Mogg's out there publicly saying, "If the ECJ is involved in anything then we haven't really left the EU." You give some of the reasons there how integral the argument will be.

Not saying that it isn't illogical in a lot of ways (eg price of a US trade deal would be to accept US standards but Brexiters don't like talking about that so much), just that there's an argument being made which needs to be addressed at some point, hopefully sooner rather than later or never. We're more than likely going to leave the EU in March, and we then have a huge fight on our hands about just what our relationship with the EU will end up being once a transition (hopefully heh) ends. Agree with Robinred that a lot will be about the quality of the public discussion, at the same time it's still going to be about reaching people with a message more appealing than what the likes of Patel and Mogg and Hoey are offering. As you say there, there are good reasons for things so hopefully the career politicians will also begin to realise that they can't just leave the field to the Kipper wing of the Tories and continue to allow them to define Brexit in the way they are.
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Offline oldfordie

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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #117 on: August 31, 2018, 01:13:42 AM »
Just on the first part there, it is the same argument to the likes of Mogg and Frottage - it's all wrapped up in "taking back control" and riffs on that theme. Mogg's out there publicly saying, "If the ECJ is involved in anything then we haven't really left the EU." You give some of the reasons there how integral the argument will be.

Not saying that it isn't illogical in a lot of ways (eg price of a US trade deal would be to accept US standards but Brexiters don't like talking about that so much), just that there's an argument being made which needs to be addressed at some point, hopefully sooner rather than later or never. We're more than likely going to leave the EU in March, and we then have a huge fight on our hands about just what our relationship with the EU will end up being once a transition (hopefully heh) ends. Agree with Robinred that a lot will be about the quality of the public discussion, at the same time it's still going to be about reaching people with a message more appealing than what the likes of Patel and Mogg and Hoey are offering. As you say there, there are good reasons for things so hopefully the career politicians will also begin to realise that they can't just leave the field to the Kipper wing of the Tories and continue to allow them to define Brexit in the way they are.
I was trying to make this point to Rob and I hope I didn't come over the wrong way. Sovereignty while we are in the EU and solving disputes after we leave the EU are 2 different issues. the ECJ are there to make rulings based on EU law, they are arbitrary court that rules on EU law, they work for the EU. there is another arbitration option for none EU members EFTA rulings , Norway etc but it's still about EU law.this is a more likely option I suppose, I can understand Mays point, if anyone connected just to the EU sits in judgement in a dispute between the UK and the EU then how can it be classed as unbiased arbitration, is it going to rule for the EU or the UK when a problem arises.
 We need some sort of arbitration who doesn't represent the EU or the UK, it's a typical brexit problem. how do we have experts on our trade laws etc who have no link to the EU or the UK. I remember May vaguely offering some solution one morning but just told her to pee off after the first few words. it's a mess.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2018, 01:15:26 AM by oldfordie »
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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #118 on: August 31, 2018, 01:49:50 AM »
Well the good news is that Brexit Britain won't have to find a way to survive on the WTO rules.

Because Donald Trump is threatening to destroy the WTO.  :butt
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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #119 on: August 31, 2018, 04:31:38 AM »
So the EU will force Ireland to implement a hard border? A member's club forcing action on a sovereign country?

As someone completely outside this (antipodean)I've seen this kind of statement a lot in the articles and commentaries I've read and it makes so little sense to me.  The EU is a democratic organisation no?  Every country & their population have representation no?

How can something - a condition or action - be "forced" on a country when the country openly agreed to the processes that lead to it occuring?