Poll

RAWK and Brexit

No Deal!
65 (8.8%)
Mays Deal!
14 (1.9%)
No Brexit!
538 (72.8%)
Don't Know
10 (1.4%)
Don't Care
15 (2%)
I don't live in the UK
97 (13.1%)

Total Members Voted: 739

Author Topic: Brexit: "Vultus inanis est et mori in fossa ego sum!"  (Read 1100897 times)

Online oldfordie

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Re: Brexit: "Vultus inanis est et mori in fossa ego sum!"
« Reply #33000 on: November 1, 2019, 10:57:39 pm »
That’s not what the report says though. It’s Vote Leave that’s been referred to the CPS, not those individuals. And that’s why it won’t impact on the election.
It won't impact the GE, it does show the police must believe laws might have been broken as the files have been passed onto the CPS, Johnson and Cummings both played a massive part of the campaign so they have questions to answer I imagine.
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If Johnson cannot stand by the deal he negotiated, signed & won an election on, he should resign. It’s not the EU’s responsibility to find solutions for his dishonesty.

Offline TSC

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Re: Brexit: "Vultus inanis est et mori in fossa ego sum!"
« Reply #33001 on: November 2, 2019, 07:30:14 am »
Caroline Lucas
@CarolineLucas
So at the start of a general election campaign, the PM and his chief adviser have both been referred to the CPS for breaking the law on elections
Hard to imagine a more serious matter for our democracy

And not mentioned at all on the news this morning.  All focus on the rugby final on bbc which is fair enough. Aside from this the only ‘news’ story is about fracking being suspended by government, which is obviously an important story too.  Although cynics may see this as a temp decision given the impending election.

But not one mention of the met police referring the ‘leave’ campaign to the CPS.  So anyone reliant on bbc for news will have no knowledge of this.

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Re: Brexit: "Vultus inanis est et mori in fossa ego sum!"
« Reply #33002 on: November 2, 2019, 08:04:28 am »
So anyone reliant on bbc for news will have no knowledge of this.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-50267454

Unless they read the website.
get thee to the library before the c*nts close it down

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Offline PaulF

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Re: Brexit: "Vultus inanis est et mori in fossa ego sum!"
« Reply #33003 on: November 2, 2019, 08:15:19 am »
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-50267454

Unless they read the website.
Thanks Sam, I felt sure I'd read about it on the BBC, and in fact heard it on the radio.
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Offline PaulF

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Re: Brexit: "Vultus inanis est et mori in fossa ego sum!"
« Reply #33004 on: November 2, 2019, 08:17:15 am »
As drmick says, they will highly likely end with no seats. That's even if they get 10% of the overall vote share, with how FPTP works.

I think at the moment the Tories are trying to call Farage's bluff, or perhaps there's informal talks behind the scenes.Frottage knows in reality if he takes the Tories on, Brexit is in jeopardy. I think you'll see him go after Labour in the heartlands that voted Leave.

I suspect they'll get a 'surprising' number of votes from disillusioned brexiteers.  Thankfully FPTP keeps them away from govenrment, I'd bet they take a lot more labour votes than we want too.
"All the lads have been talking about is walking out in front of the Kop, with 40,000 singing 'You'll Never Walk Alone'," Collins told BBC Radio Solent. "All the money in the world couldn't buy that feeling," he added.

Offline redmark

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Re: Brexit: "Vultus inanis est et mori in fossa ego sum!"
« Reply #33005 on: November 2, 2019, 08:31:11 am »
And not mentioned at all on the news this morning.  All focus on the rugby final on bbc which is fair enough. Aside from this the only ‘news’ story is about fracking being suspended by government, which is obviously an important story too.  Although cynics may see this as a temp decision given the impending election.

But not one mention of the met police referring the ‘leave’ campaign to the CPS.  So anyone reliant on bbc for news will have no knowledge of this.
It was on yesterday and last night. You know, when it was 'news'.
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Offline OneTouchFooty

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Re: Brexit: "Vultus inanis est et mori in fossa ego sum!"
« Reply #33006 on: November 2, 2019, 08:34:00 am »
That’s not what the report says though. It’s Vote Leave that’s been referred to the CPS, not those individuals. And that’s why it won’t impact on the election.

Thats like saying  “Yes, the company ran by Johnson might well be suspected of massive fraud and financial improprieties.. but it’s nothing to do with him”. ;D

He’s culpable as the figurehead.. if anything comes of it that is.

(Edit: quoted wrong person!)
« Last Edit: November 2, 2019, 09:09:21 am by OneTouchFooty »

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Re: Brexit: "Vultus inanis est et mori in fossa ego sum!"
« Reply #33007 on: November 2, 2019, 09:00:14 am »
Caroline Lucas
@CarolineLucas
So at the start of a general election campaign, the PM and his chief adviser have both been referred to the CPS for breaking the law on elections
Hard to imagine a more serious matter for our democracy


Martin Burslam 🕷
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Replying to
@CarolineLucas
This could be equally serious...
Johnson is withholding a report into Russian interference in the EU referendum.

Offline Zeb

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Re: Brexit: "Vultus inanis est et mori in fossa ego sum!"
« Reply #33008 on: November 2, 2019, 09:27:07 am »

Martin Burslam 🕷
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Replying to
@CarolineLucas
This could be equally serious...
Johnson is withholding a report into Russian interference in the EU referendum.

If it's the same one, then it's meant to be coming out via a US report which will touch on both referendum 2016 and general election 2017 as part of Russia's attempts to influence elections around the world. Sort of waiting on the US Senate to release it.
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Re: Brexit: "Vultus inanis est et mori in fossa ego sum!"
« Reply #33009 on: November 2, 2019, 09:30:44 am »
It was on yesterday and last night. You know, when it was 'news'.


I didn’t catch the 10 pm news last night so will take your word for it.  Didn’t note mention of it at 6pm yesterday though may have missed it.

Offline PaulF

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Re: Brexit: "Vultus inanis est et mori in fossa ego sum!"
« Reply #33010 on: November 2, 2019, 10:05:46 am »
Thats like saying  “Yes, the company ran by Johnson might well be suspected of massive fraud and financial improprieties.. but it’s nothing to do with him”. ;D

He’s culpable as the figurehead.. if anything comes of it that is.

(Edit: quoted wrong person!)
I doubt the findings will affect the electorate much. If you've seen the other stories about him and still vote for him, then a bit of illegal campaigning isn't going to change your vote. It's not like he's been caught hanging out with a guy that likes to shove his knob in to dead pigs.
"All the lads have been talking about is walking out in front of the Kop, with 40,000 singing 'You'll Never Walk Alone'," Collins told BBC Radio Solent. "All the money in the world couldn't buy that feeling," he added.

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Re: Brexit: "Vultus inanis est et mori in fossa ego sum!"
« Reply #33011 on: November 2, 2019, 10:25:42 am »
Thats like saying  “Yes, the company ran by Johnson might well be suspected of massive fraud and financial improprieties.. but it’s nothing to do with him”. ;D

He’s culpable as the figurehead.. if anything comes of it that is.

(Edit: quoted wrong person!)

What massive fraud? It’s most likely another spending technicality like the previous one which was overturned on appeal.

Lucas’s comment was wrong - neither Johnson nor Cummings have personally been referred.

It won’t be pursued during the election. It’s not going to change any votes and Johnson/Cummings won’t face any charges. Get over it and move on.
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Offline Dr. Beaker

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Re: Brexit: "Vultus inanis est et mori in fossa ego sum!"
« Reply #33012 on: November 2, 2019, 11:29:38 am »
I saw it on the news last night (can't remember if it was BBC or Sky) and I'm pretty sure a figure of over £600.000 was mentioned.
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Re: Brexit: "Vultus inanis est et mori in fossa ego sum!"
« Reply #33013 on: November 2, 2019, 11:34:14 am »
I saw it on the news last night (can't remember if it was BBC or Sky) and I'm pretty sure a figure of over £600.000 was mentioned.

£600 doesn't sound too serious
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Offline jillc

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Re: Brexit: "Vultus inanis est et mori in fossa ego sum!"
« Reply #33014 on: November 2, 2019, 11:45:27 am »
If it's the same one, then it's meant to be coming out via a US report which will touch on both referendum 2016 and general election 2017 as part of Russia's attempts to influence elections around the world. Sort of waiting on the US Senate to release it.

What is the balance in the Senate House at the moment? My fear would be if there are more Republicans they would hold the report back until after the election.
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Offline Dr. Beaker

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Re: Brexit: "Vultus inanis est et mori in fossa ego sum!"
« Reply #33015 on: November 2, 2019, 11:55:59 am »
£600 doesn't sound too serious
That was supposed to be a comma not a full stop - my phone is small. So six hundred thousand pounds.
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Offline Zeb

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Re: Brexit: "Vultus inanis est et mori in fossa ego sum!"
« Reply #33016 on: November 2, 2019, 12:33:08 pm »
What is the balance in the Senate House at the moment? My fear would be if there are more Republicans they would hold the report back until after the election.

It's bipartisan - the second report they've done into Russian actions, this time on social media, was released start of last month - although I can't find where I read that another one is due out relatively soon. May be loads redacted from it though if Johnson's sitting on it our side.
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Offline PaulF

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Re: Brexit: "Vultus inanis est et mori in fossa ego sum!"
« Reply #33017 on: November 2, 2019, 01:58:30 pm »
That was supposed to be a comma not a full stop - my phone is small. So six hundred thousand pounds.
.
I think Andy's phone was too small for the smiley he needed.
"All the lads have been talking about is walking out in front of the Kop, with 40,000 singing 'You'll Never Walk Alone'," Collins told BBC Radio Solent. "All the money in the world couldn't buy that feeling," he added.

Offline Jiminy Cricket

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Re: Brexit: "Vultus inanis est et mori in fossa ego sum!"
« Reply #33018 on: November 2, 2019, 02:03:07 pm »
That was supposed to be a comma not a full stop - my phone is small. So six hundred thousand pounds.
I don't care how miniaturised your phone is - that's an obscene amount of money to spend on a mobile.
Just Elmo? - What have the EU deregulated?

diggerling! - The market.

Offline Dr. Beaker

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Re: Brexit: "Vultus inanis est et mori in fossa ego sum!"
« Reply #33019 on: November 2, 2019, 02:15:11 pm »
I don't care how miniaturised your phone is - that's an obscene amount of money to spend on a mobile.
Yeah but it's really small. So small you can't even see it - and it's got a cover. Last time I go to C ex.
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Offline Dr. Beaker

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Re: Brexit: "Vultus inanis est et mori in fossa ego sum!"
« Reply #33020 on: November 2, 2019, 02:24:28 pm »
.
I think Andy's phone was too small for the smiley he needed.
Look smart arse two decimal point zeroes would have been six hundred pounds, but as I put three we are talking about a potential senior moment on Andy's behalf. And I should know, I have some expertise in this field. :-\
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Offline Zeb

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Re: Brexit: "Vultus inanis est et mori in fossa ego sum!"
« Reply #33021 on: November 3, 2019, 08:18:07 am »
What is the balance in the Senate House at the moment? My fear would be if there are more Republicans they would hold the report back until after the election.

Went back a bit. If it's of interest, this is the first (and light touch) overview of Brexit the Dem minority did back in January 2018. https://www.foreign.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/FinalRR.pdf

(We're at page 116 in the pdf.)

Obvious thing with Johnson is his relationship with oligarchs and the money they funnel into Britain (Reuters), although I'd be amazed if it was actually spelled out by a cross-party committee report. And then the whole Leave stuff, including how Russia Today pushed, and continues to push, Brexit messages from both left and right of our politics.
« Last Edit: November 3, 2019, 08:32:12 am by Zeb »
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Offline jillc

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Re: Brexit: "Vultus inanis est et mori in fossa ego sum!"
« Reply #33022 on: November 3, 2019, 04:14:59 pm »
Went back a bit. If it's of interest, this is the first (and light touch) overview of Brexit the Dem minority did back in January 2018. https://www.foreign.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/FinalRR.pdf

(We're at page 116 in the pdf.)

Obvious thing with Johnson is his relationship with oligarchs and the money they funnel into Britain (Reuters), although I'd be amazed if it was actually spelled out by a cross-party committee report. And then the whole Leave stuff, including how Russia Today pushed, and continues to push, Brexit messages from both left and right of our politics.

That's interesting indeed thanks for that Zeb.
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Offline jymbojetset

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Re: Brexit: "Vultus inanis est et mori in fossa ego sum!"
« Reply #33023 on: November 4, 2019, 01:35:47 pm »
Nothing to see here!

Downing stree blocks report on Russian interference in EU referendum.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/nov/04/no-10-blocks-russia-eu-referendum-report-until-after-election

Offline Jshooters

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Re: Brexit: "Vultus inanis est et mori in fossa ego sum!"
« Reply #33024 on: November 4, 2019, 01:43:10 pm »
New countdown clock in Tory HQ apparently.  Not sure that having a constant reminder of their inability to follow through with promises will be great for morale though...
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Re: Brexit: "Vultus inanis est et mori in fossa ego sum!"
« Reply #33025 on: November 4, 2019, 01:43:16 pm »

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Re: Brexit: "Vultus inanis est et mori in fossa ego sum!"
« Reply #33026 on: November 4, 2019, 01:51:01 pm »
Nothing to see here!

Downing stree blocks report on Russian interference in EU referendum.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/nov/04/no-10-blocks-russia-eu-referendum-report-until-after-election

Well knock me down with a feather!

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Re: Brexit: "Vultus inanis est et mori in fossa ego sum!"
« Reply #33027 on: November 4, 2019, 02:01:21 pm »
Quote
We would not expect economic activity to be boosted by the approval of the government’s proposed Brexit deal. We estimate that, in the long run, the economy would be 3½ per cent smaller with the deal compared to continued EU membership.

Quote
The economy is estimated to be 2½ per cent smaller now than it would otherwise have been as a result of the 2016 Brexit vote.

Quote
This Review provides an assessment of the government’s new proposed free trade agreement with the European Union (pp. F34–7). Compared to our main-case forecast, uncertainty would be lifted but customs and regulatory barriers would hinder goods and services trade with the continent, leaving all regions of the United Kingdom worse off than they would be if the UK stayed in the EU

https://www.niesr.ac.uk/media/niesr-press-release-uk-economy-35-cent-smaller-under-latest-brexit-deal-13975

Quote
GDP will be 3½ per cent smaller each year in perpetuity than it would have been had the UK stayed an EU member. This is roughly equivalent to losing the annual output of Wales. Second, the estimated loss of GDP so far is because businesses generally have not been investing, whereas the loss in the future will because certain types of economic activity in the UK will be no longer profitable.

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1177/002795011925000103

Offline rafathegaffa83

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Re: Brexit: "Vultus inanis est et mori in fossa ego sum!"
« Reply #33028 on: November 4, 2019, 03:59:39 pm »

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Re: Brexit: "Vultus inanis est et mori in fossa ego sum!"
« Reply #33029 on: November 4, 2019, 09:35:36 pm »
Juncker: Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson told 'so many lies' in EU referendum campaign

Quote
Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson told “so many lies” during the EU referendum campaign, the outgoing president of the European commission, Jean-Claude Juncker, has said.

In a valedictory interview with the German magazine Der Spiegel, Juncker voiced regret he had not countered the claims of the leave campaign in 2016. The commission decided not to get involved on the advice of David Cameron, who feared interventions from Brussels would backfire.

Juncker said that had been a big mistake, adding: “So many lies were told, including by current prime minister, Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson, that there needed to be a voice to counter them.”

Juncker also pointed the blame for the 2016 result at pro-EU politicians, specifically “my friend” Tony Blair. He said the British, including the former Labour leader, had always seen the EU as an economic project and had shunned political union. “If you stick to that narrative for over 40 years, it should not come as a surprise when people remember it during the referendum.”

The veteran Luxembourg politician, who became commission president in 2014, said he had been sceptical remain would win. Juncker claimed he had told Cameron in 2014: “You are going to lose it.”

Juncker said he had become “an ideological target for Brexiters” and added it was important not to give Europeans “the false impression” that the EU was on the way to becoming a single state: “Even highly enthusiastic Europeans are against our union becoming a European melting pot.”

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/nov/04/juncker-boris-johnson-told-so-many-lies-in-eu-referendum-campaign

Offline PaulF

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Re: Brexit: "Vultus inanis est et mori in fossa ego sum!"
« Reply #33030 on: November 5, 2019, 08:18:20 am »
Do leavers sympathise with Boris for having his exit blocked? Do they see his blaming the other parties as just avoiding responsibility ( I don't mix with many people so haven't been able to gauge for myself).  Obvious to us he'd blame them, without anyone questioning why he'd make a promise like that knowing he didn't have a majority, and even if he did there would be mps of his party that would vote against him.
I'm imagining his supporters would retort that he got a deal when everyone said he couldn't. Swiftly glossing over the fact we assumed he meant a better deal. Obviously he could get a worse deal.  Boils my piss it does.
"All the lads have been talking about is walking out in front of the Kop, with 40,000 singing 'You'll Never Walk Alone'," Collins told BBC Radio Solent. "All the money in the world couldn't buy that feeling," he added.

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Re: Brexit: "Vultus inanis est et mori in fossa ego sum!"
« Reply #33031 on: November 5, 2019, 09:50:13 am »
Do leavers sympathise with Boris for having his exit blocked? Do they see his blaming the other parties as just avoiding responsibility ( I don't mix with many people so haven't been able to gauge for myself).  Obvious to us he'd blame them, without anyone questioning why he'd make a promise like that knowing he didn't have a majority, and even if he did there would be mps of his party that would vote against him.
I'm imagining his supporters would retort that he got a deal when everyone said he couldn't. Swiftly glossing over the fact we assumed he meant a better deal. Obviously he could get a worse deal.  Boils my piss it does.

Yes, it appears.

Quote
MPs in Parliament are held most responsible for Britain not leaving the EU this month (50%), compared to 30% and 21% saying Jeremy Corbyn and Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson respectively.

Conservative supporters and those disappointed that the UK is not leaving the EU this month are less likely to blame Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson for the failure to leave than MPs in Parliament generally. 4% of Conservatives blame Johnson compared with 54% that blame MPs in Parliament whilst 9% of those that think the UK not leaving this month is a bad thing blame Johnson compared with 56% that blame MPs.

https://www.ipsos.com/ipsos-mori/en-uk/conservatives-strengthen-position-latest-ipsos-mori-political-monitor

And see the "die in a ditch" question in this

Hmm

If only I could find some common themes in this data..



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Re: Brexit: "Vultus inanis est et mori in fossa ego sum!"
« Reply #33032 on: November 5, 2019, 11:26:59 am »
Nothing to see here!

Downing stree blocks report on Russian interference in EU referendum.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/nov/04/no-10-blocks-russia-eu-referendum-report-until-after-election


It's a scandal, but the compliant right-wing media has barely a mention of this.

We can but hope that a patriotic whistle-blower leaks the report.

We already know that corrupt Russian plutocrats with links to Putin have paid handsome cash 'donations' to buy influence with prominent Tory bigwigs.

And the funding of the Leave campaign has massive question marks over the origins of the donations, especially those made via diminutive shitstain Banks.
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Offline lobsterboy

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Re: Brexit: "Vultus inanis est et mori in fossa ego sum!"
« Reply #33033 on: November 5, 2019, 02:16:00 pm »

It's a scandal, but the compliant right-wing media has barely a mention of this.

We can but hope that a patriotic whistle-blower leaks the report.

We already know that corrupt Russian plutocrats with links to Putin have paid handsome cash 'donations' to buy influence with prominent Tory bigwigs.

And the funding of the Leave campaign has massive question marks over the origins of the donations, especially those made via diminutive shitstain Banks.

Plenty of the same money will have found its way into those media moguls pockets as well.
Handy for Putin having all these oligarchs ensconced in the west and able to dish out all this money to help his cause.
Its almost like the money all really belongs to him..

Offline Skeeve

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Re: Brexit: "Vultus inanis est et mori in fossa ego sum!"
« Reply #33034 on: November 5, 2019, 03:41:33 pm »
It is.

But we've ended up where we've ended up, people voted for Brexit and in the 3 years in between its looking now like people are largely now fed up of it and are fatigued enough to just want it done for the most part.

So in light of that, I dont think Labour's stance to allow the people the final say on a deal vs remaining is really anything beyond the pale. Certainly no reason not to vote for them, it seems fair and it seems prudent (to me).

The problem is that even this wishy washy stance has basically been forced onto the labour leadership, despite around 80% of labour voters being in favour of remain, it certainly doesn't help matters that some labour spokespeople were even using the same talking point as the tories after the 2017 election i.e. 80% of people who voted, had voted for leave parties.


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Re: Brexit: "Vultus inanis est et mori in fossa ego sum!"
« Reply #33035 on: November 5, 2019, 03:55:38 pm »
If the Tories win a majority then am afraid we are f... even if Corbyn +co go.
The damage will be done, leaving the EU with a nutty hard right Tory party. less talented MPs to hold them to account.

There is a fair argument to be made that we are already fucked due to the number of companies that have or are in the process of getting out of the UK, even if we somehow come back from the brink, we won't see most of them returning for a long time.

Beyond that, any form of brexit is going to inflict severe harm on the country, so while boris and his gang of fuckwits will trash the country, at least they might end up taking the blame, whereas drifting along into brexit with labour's imaginary brexit for jobs nonsense would harm the country almost as much in the short term and in the long run would see labour blamed for brexit rather than the bloody tories who would have all reaped their profits from it anyway.

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Re: Brexit: "Vultus inanis est et mori in fossa ego sum!"
« Reply #33036 on: November 5, 2019, 04:07:16 pm »
Let this sink in: The leader of Labour still hasn't formed a clear opinion on the most important political issue in decades.

That isn't the problem, he has clearly shown where his feelings lie on the subject by both his words and actions over the last few years, he simply doesn't want to admit to being a leaver when 80% of his party are in favour of remain.

to be honest, I'd have more respect for him if he just admitted that, but would work towards the wishes of his party over his own personal feelings on the matter.

Offline OneTouchFooty

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Re: Brexit: "Vultus inanis est et mori in fossa ego sum!"
« Reply #33037 on: November 5, 2019, 05:46:07 pm »
Let this sink in: The leader of Labour still hasn't formed a clear opinion on the most important political issue in decades.

Are people still pretending they don’t understand Labour’s Brexit policy?

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Re: Brexit: "Vultus inanis est et mori in fossa ego sum!"
« Reply #33038 on: November 5, 2019, 05:49:24 pm »
Are people still pretending they don’t understand Labour’s Brexit policy?

Will they back Leave or Remain? Until they can answer that question I don't know how anyone can claim to understand Labour's Brexit policy.
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Offline eddymunster

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Brexit: "Vultus inanis est et mori in fossa ego sum!"
« Reply #33039 on: November 5, 2019, 05:50:58 pm »
Will they back Leave or Remain? Until they can answer that question I don't know how anyone can claim to understand Labour's Brexit policy.

That quote also doesn’t refer to labours policy, It refers specifically to jeremy’s.
Brexit (n) - "The undefined being negotiated by the unprepared in order to get the unspecified for the uninformed."