Poll

RAWK and Brexit

No Deal!
65 (8.8%)
Mays Deal!
14 (1.9%)
No Brexit!
538 (72.8%)
Don't Know
10 (1.4%)
Don't Care
15 (2%)
I don't live in the UK
97 (13.1%)

Total Members Voted: 739

Author Topic: Brexit: "Vultus inanis est et mori in fossa ego sum!"  (Read 833913 times)

Offline Zeb

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24600 on: August 19, 2019, 03:14:03 PM »
I saw those phrases also pop up in that article above too, so I think there's a slight chance I'm right (for once).

He's their most effective and one of their most brazen liars, so it certainly is of the right scale to be coming from him.

This lie is just to allow Corbyn the chance to say "the real fight starts now" on 1st November, and argue that they will maybe reverse or maybe re-leave with a better no deal or something.

I can understand it on the party political level, as well as 'politics is about power' aspect to it, just still doesn't sit well when it's so obviously crossing into disinformation and done so clearly to mislead. If that makes sense?


----

If anyone's interested in the procedure after a Vote of No Confidence, this is what the Civil Service and current government will be following from the Cabinet Manual (pdf).

« Last Edit: August 19, 2019, 03:15:35 PM by Zeb »
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Offline WhereAngelsPlay

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24601 on: August 19, 2019, 03:14:18 PM »
Could it be they see a man of integrity that can't be bought and therefore won't be bent by the media, tax avoiding big business, thus also leading to a government that is first and foremost, fair unlike the current incumbents who are solely looking after their party's interests!

IRA members,the Venezuelan bus driver/his dead predecessor,Russian state & Middle Eastern propaganda tv news all say different.
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Offline KillieRed

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24602 on: August 19, 2019, 03:19:02 PM »
Let's start with those two highlighted parts then.

That thing you said about Corbyn's job. It's entirely incorrect. He and his office/cabinet collects a salary of taxpayers money to do exactly this. Are you really of the mind that the leader of the opposition just needs to hibernate for a few years between elections, and leave the government to it?

To suggest Corbyn fans are policy driven, and don't focus on personalty (or lack of it, in this clear Dunning-Kruger example), is a truly Orwellian take.


EDIT: sorry third one, didn't see it glancing at your post. your suggestion that Corbyn fans are rising above everything for the good of the country, despite the tough time they've had for having a mirror pointed at some of their antisemitism is just weird. The "hyping of antisemism" claim (and whining but the tories don't get told off when they do it) is simple apologism for bigots xenophobes and racists who ostensibly support Corbyn.

I`m not a Labour Party member, and havent voted for them in decades, but I`d never heard of AS being a problem in Labour outwith the high-profile cases of Livingstone & Galloway. But,  "In February and July 2019, Labour issued information on investigations into complaints of antisemitism against individuals, with around 350 members in total resigning, being expelled or receiving formal warnings, equating to around 0.08% of the membership". There were over 600 hundred claims of anti-semitism against Labour Party members. Some say as many as 900. You might say that`s a tiny percentage of the membership and perhaps reflects society in general, but 600 to 900 incidents? That seems a lot. And where does it come from?

I totally get that the Tory Party probably has a much worse problem with xenophobia and are generally protected by their media supporters, but you also have to get your own house in order too.

I know this is from the BBC , who many people have a problem with at the moment;

"It said fewer than 30 people had been expelled while members investigated for posting online comments such as "Heil Hitler" and "Jews are the problem" had not been suspended."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-45030552


But how are these people not expelled from the party for being wholly in contravention of it`s rules and ethics?
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Offline redmark

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24603 on: August 19, 2019, 03:21:26 PM »
Key point is that 'Leader of the Opposition' appears absolutely nowhere. It's about having a majority of MPs saying they'll back you as a person as PM. Can't get them? Can't persuade 320 others to back you? You're not the new PM and you're not forming a government even if you have most votes. So next decision to make is do you block anyone else from succeeding, if you can, and force an election?

Perfectly reasonable to argue Corbyn should be able to try to persuade other MPs. Bonkers to argue that they're obligated to support him because Labour members made him Leader of the Opposition.[/spoiler]
Corbyn's point on that is that prior parliamentary convention and precedent elevates the Leader of the Opposition to the (unwritten) position of 'first option' following a VoNC. Certainly the 2011 FTPA doesn't reference that directly, but as a number of commentators have pointed out recently, the 2011 FTPA is a slightly sloppy and vague piece of legislation.

And of course, it was the voters who made him Leader of the Opposition. It's the members fault for having him in the qualifying role for that, certainly.

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Offline WhereAngelsPlay

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24604 on: August 19, 2019, 03:22:11 PM »



But how are these people not expelled from the party for being wholly in contravention of it`s rules and ethics?


Because none of them have said anything different to what the Dear Leader is on record saying/peddling.
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Offline Classycara

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24605 on: August 19, 2019, 03:23:05 PM »
If Corbyn fans are not policy driven when everyone says he's weak, what is it that they're seeing that everyone else is not?
Lots of weird, irrational, aspirational, desperate things that aren't really backed up by any evidence, because he's such a blank slate of a personality and even as a politician.

Could it be they see a man of integrity that can't be bought and therefore won't be bent by the media, tax avoiding big business, thus also leading to a government that is first and foremost, fair unlike the current incumbents who are solely looking after their party's interests!
Yeah, exactly like that.

Man of integrity ;D from the man who has MP-washed the image of the Venezuelan dictatorship (amongst others). Whose comrades went over to launder the perception of fake elections over there.

If he's a man of integrity, you're incredibly fucking easy to impress

Offline redmark

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24606 on: August 19, 2019, 03:24:07 PM »
But how are these people not expelled from the party for being wholly in contravention of it`s rules and ethics?
There's another example on twitter today of a Labour local council candidate (Dorset, I think) posting numerous anti-Semitic tropes and conspiracy theories online, even after the nature of them being pointed out to her. It's mad.
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Offline Mark Walters

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24607 on: August 19, 2019, 03:25:24 PM »
No. The job of 'Leader of the Opposition' is to oppose. It's in the effing title. It is a pretty easy concept to understand.
So he's not opposing austerity? ??? Are you sure you're not getting him confused with Swinson?!
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Offline Zeb

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24608 on: August 19, 2019, 03:31:39 PM »
Corbyn's point on that is that prior parliamentary convention and precedent elevates the Leader of the Opposition to the (unwritten) position of 'first option' following a VoNC. Certainly the 2011 FTPA doesn't reference that directly, but as a number of commentators have pointed out recently, the 2011 FTPA is a slightly sloppy and vague piece of legislation.

And of course, it was the voters who made him Leader of the Opposition. It's the members fault for having him in the qualifying role for that, certainly.

Corbyn's fuzzing up leading the largest party in opposition with it making him heir in a line of succession which doesn't exist, yes. Going by Corbyn's logic, the opportunity should next pass to whoever's doing the Deputy PM's work right now (Raab?). The Cabinet Manual sets out the conventions so they're not unwritten, but they're also not invented on the spur of the moment to suit Corbyn's needs either.

It's actually MPs who make him Leader of the Opposition if we're going to pedant this one. ;)
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Offline Classycara

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24609 on: August 19, 2019, 03:31:40 PM »
So he's not opposing austerity? ??? Are you sure you're not getting him confused with Swinson?!

Not very well
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/may/20/labour-manifesto-keep-planned-tory-benefit-cuts-resolution-foundation

"anti-austerity" is a nice brand, and it works for some. But it's about as accurate as the suggestion from the number of bigots who support him that they're "anti-racist".

Offline filopastry

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24610 on: August 19, 2019, 03:32:49 PM »
So he's not opposing austerity? ??? Are you sure you're not getting him confused with Swinson?!

Last LibDem manifesto did more to help the bottom 10% in society in terms of income than the last Labour one did, per the IFS I believe.

For a party that likes to talk about austerity the last manifesto didn't seem too arsed about doing a great deal about it, more interested in chucking a load of cash at largely middle class students.

Offline Mark Walters

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24611 on: August 19, 2019, 03:35:53 PM »
Lots of weird, irrational, aspirational, desperate things that aren't really backed up by any evidence, because he's such a blank slate of a personality and even as a politician.
Maybe it is something else then? Like party policies. I mean, I don't know what they're seeing either.  Maybe they're just not buying the media bullshit!
Quote
Yeah, exactly like that.

Man of integrity ;D from the man who has MP-washed the image of the Venezuelan dictatorship (amongst others). Whose comrades went over to launder the perception of fake elections over there.

If he's a man of integrity, you're incredibly fucking easy to impress
Is that the current democratically-elected Venezuelan government? The country that has been unfairly sanctioned by the US and many other western countries causing an economic and social crisis? Sanctions imposed simply because it's oil rich and everybody wants a piece?
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Offline Classycara

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24612 on: August 19, 2019, 03:39:26 PM »
Maybe it is something else then? Like party policies. I mean, I don't know what they're seeing either.  Maybe they're just not buying the media bullshit!Is that the current democratically-elected Venezuelan government? The country that has been unfairly sanctioned by the US and many other western countries causing an economic and social crisis? Sanctions imposed simply because it's oil rich and everybody wants a piece?

This is like Corbyn fan tropes bingo.

You clearly aren’t interested in evidence/facts/truths, and you’re not offering anything aside from the same oft repeated (and disproved) arguments from the corbyn echo chamber so I will probably leave it there

Offline Mark Walters

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24613 on: August 19, 2019, 03:47:56 PM »
This is like Corbyn fan tropes bingo.

You clearly aren’t interested in evidence/facts/truths, and you’re not offering anything aside from the same oft repeated (and disproved) arguments from the corbyn echo chamber so I will probably leave it there
It wasn't my intention to offer truths except the undeniable fact that the Labour party policies to end austerity are clearly there in their manifesto.  What I'm arguing is that maybe those close to Corbyn know more that those that are no so close, and depend on the media in order to form an opinion.

Is there anything else I said that wasn't backed up by evidence or facts?
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Offline Jiminy Cricket

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24614 on: August 19, 2019, 03:53:57 PM »
So he's not opposing austerity? ??? Are you sure you're not getting him confused with Swinson?!
I don't care if it comes from the left or right, but I've come to realise that when people resort to whataboutery, the discussion becomes pointless. Bye, bye.

Offline Classycara

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24615 on: August 19, 2019, 03:58:18 PM »
It wasn't my intention to offer truths except the undeniable fact that the Labour party policies to end austerity are clearly there in their manifesto.  What I'm arguing is that maybe those close to Corbyn know more that those that are no so close, and depend on the media in order to form an opinion.

Is there anything else I said that wasn't backed up by evidence or facts?
Undeniable fact? How come you didn't respond to this then?
Not very well
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/may/20/labour-manifesto-keep-planned-tory-benefit-cuts-resolution-foundation

"anti-austerity" is a nice brand, and it works for some. But it's about as accurate as the suggestion from the number of bigots who support him that they're "anti-racist".

Offline redmark

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24616 on: August 19, 2019, 04:05:32 PM »
An interesting and somewhat depressing piece, not primarily about Brexit.

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2019/08/why-liberals-now-believe-conspiracies
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Offline WhereAngelsPlay

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24617 on: August 19, 2019, 04:10:27 PM »
Is that the current democratically-elected Venezuelan government? The country that has been unfairly sanctioned by the US and many other western countries causing an economic and social crisis? Sanctions imposed simply because it's oil rich and everybody wants a piece?






Have you ever seen the Venezuelan Govs moped gangs in action ?
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Offline Mark Walters

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24618 on: August 19, 2019, 04:21:27 PM »
Undeniable fact? How come you didn't respond to this then?
Nothing sinister. I just didn't see it when I refreshed.

To answer your question in relation to the article, ending austerity is not a simple case of "reverse all cuts".  There are other plans which will have a positive social and economic impact such as the reversal of PIP cuts, £8bn on social care, free school meals, free childcare for low income families, increased apprentiships, etc.
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Offline Mark Walters

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24619 on: August 19, 2019, 04:33:15 PM »



Have you ever seen the Venezuelan Govs moped gangs in action ?

No, perhaps you can enlighten me. 
"Maybe in life it's impossible to give 100 per cent to your job. Okay, I'll accept 98 per cent" Rafa Benitez

Offline Lush is the best medicine...

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24620 on: August 19, 2019, 04:39:06 PM »





Have you ever seen the Venezuelan Govs moped gangs in action ?
last year Nicky Maduro killed over 5k people, more than Pinochet did in his tenure, guess which one gets shit off jezza?

https://www.ohchr.org/EN/NewsEvents/Pages/DisplayNews.aspx?NewsID=24788&LangID=E

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_violations_in_Pinochet%27s_Chile

Offline redmark

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24621 on: August 19, 2019, 04:41:28 PM »
No, perhaps you can enlighten me. 
There's more to democracy than holding an occasional dubious election.

https://www.amnesty.org/en/countries/americas/venezuela/report-venezuela/
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Offline WhereAngelsPlay

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24622 on: August 19, 2019, 04:48:08 PM »
No, perhaps you can enlighten me.


Look it up.

They have hundreds of police thugs on motorbikes that are literally nothing more than snatch squads.
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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24623 on: August 19, 2019, 04:51:33 PM »
Article 50.

"1.   Any Member State may decide to withdraw from the Union in accordance with its own constitutional requirements."
We've discussed this before, of course, but it's the line about 'in accordance with constitutional requirements' that leads some people to think there's some wriggle room here to declare a No Deal crash out invalid if the government has not followed proper procedure, or has tried to trick us out by filibustering, delaying, proroguing etc.

It might feel a bit desperate, but I'm not sure it has been satisfactorily clarified. The key is with the words 'in accordance with', and how they relate to the rest of the sentence. Does it mean 'A Member State can withdraw from the union if it's constitutional processes mandate it to' or does it mean 'A Member State can only withdraw from the union if everything is done according to it's constitutional processes'?

Either reading is viable and they mean two different things.

If tested in court the semantics would involve some interpretation. On the face of it the line could just be saying that if constitutional processes, such as a referendum or a vote in the House, mandate the state to leave then it can do so. Nothing about processes involved in the act of leaving.

But I imagine lawyers could get tricksy about it and claim that 'in accordance with' means that the A50 process requires strict adherence to constitutional processes otherwise the A50 process ceases to be binding.

I'm not even sure if getting John Kerr in to explain what they intended while drafting the words would make a conclusive difference once it gets to that stage.
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Offline Mark Walters

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24624 on: August 19, 2019, 04:53:02 PM »
There's more to democracy than holding an occasional dubious election.

https://www.amnesty.org/en/countries/americas/venezuela/report-venezuela/

Of course but can you argue that the election was not fair? The turnout may have been low but you can't argue with 68% voting for the president.  What you can argue against is someone declaring themselves president when they didn't even take part (Guaidó).
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Offline Classycara

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24625 on: August 19, 2019, 04:55:50 PM »
Of course but can you argue that the election was not fair? The turnout may have been low but you can't argue with 68% voting for the president.  What you can argue against is someone declaring themselves president when they didn't even take part (Guaidó).

Yes, I believe one can. And with third party evidence.

"In August, four opposition officials who had been elected to public office were arrested and five others had arrest warrants issued against them. These warrants were issued by the Supreme Court in a proceeding that was not enshrined in law. A total of 11 officials elected by popular vote were removed from office in irregular proceedings."

Does that sound like things are fair in the way Venezuela is governed?

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24626 on: August 19, 2019, 04:56:31 PM »
Of course but can you argue that the election was not fair? The turnout may have been low but you can't argue with 68% voting for the president.  What you can argue against is someone declaring themselves president when they didn't even take part (Guaidó).

It is a dictatorship that masquerades as a Democracy.

to be honest Mark,it's pretty obvious that you don't know a great deal about Venezuelan politics or the hardships that the ordinary citizen faces day in day out.
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Offline Classycara

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24627 on: August 19, 2019, 05:01:37 PM »
An interesting and somewhat depressing piece, not primarily about Brexit.

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2019/08/why-liberals-now-believe-conspiracies


Thanks very much for this. Lots to think about in there.

Also reminded me of the word meliorism, which I've been trying to remember to attack unconscious biases in favour of VAR (because I'm sad like that)

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24628 on: August 19, 2019, 05:02:12 PM »
However, it has been established in the European Court that the UK can unilaterally revoke Article 50. And since Withdrawal is a process (not just a single point in time), it would seem logical (to me, at least) that the withdrawal process be made (or is required to be) in accordance with the UK's constitution (such as it is). Or, has it been established that invoking Article 50 is the end of the constitutional requirements as far as Article 50 is concerned?

As for the second part: you long ago convinced me that rejoining will be technically very difficult. And, I think, politically impossible for a generation.

The decision process in Article 50 is to trigger it and then to relay that decision to the EU. Once that's done without a hiccup, that's the decision made under constitutional requirements and according to EU law. There's no more votes in Parliament needed to confirm that - "by automatic operation of law" and all that because we've said we're off. Everything else is detail on what mitigations are in place when the day finally arrives. Question would seem to arise more if Parliament legislated to say the PM had to revoke if X hadn't happened, and then the PM refused to follow the law. Which would be a mess and would once have been up there with Martians landing as a possibility.
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Offline redmark

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24629 on: August 19, 2019, 05:04:44 PM »
Of course but can you argue that the election was not fair? The turnout may have been low but you can't argue with 68% voting for the president.  What you can argue against is someone declaring themselves president when they didn't even take part (Guaidó).
There was much more to that link than fairness of the election, but yes - lots of people have indeed argued that the election was deeply flawed and unfair.

The point was that a democratic society actually relies on many things other than elections - such as an independent judiciary free from political interference, a free press, the freedom to protest and freedom from arbitrary detention. And many others, all listed on that Amnesty link (and deliberately used an Amnesty link, not a 'MSM' article).
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Offline Jiminy Cricket

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24630 on: August 19, 2019, 05:20:14 PM »
The decision process in Article 50 is to trigger it and then to relay that decision to the EU. Once that's done without a hiccup, that's the decision made under constitutional requirements and according to EU law. There's no more votes in Parliament needed to confirm that - "by automatic operation of law" and all that because we've said we're off. Everything else is detail on what mitigations are in place when the day finally arrives. Question would seem to arise more if Parliament legislated to say the PM had to revoke if X hadn't happened, and then the PM refused to follow the law. Which would be a mess and would once have been up there with Martians landing as a possibility.
But what if the PM effectively suspends Parliament to prevent a vote? I am not expecting you to be able to answer this. It is just that I suspect that effectively circumventing the opportunity for (and will by) Parliament to prevent Brexit might be interpreted as a failure to adhere to the constitution. And, since the circumvention is transparently to prevent Parliament from leaving the EU, might Brexit be null and void?

Offline Jiminy Cricket

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24631 on: August 19, 2019, 05:21:29 PM »
We've discussed this before, of course, but it's the line about 'in accordance with constitutional requirements' that leads some people to think there's some wriggle room here to declare a No Deal crash out invalid if the government has not followed proper procedure, or has tried to trick us out by filibustering, delaying, proroguing etc.

It might feel a bit desperate, but I'm not sure it has been satisfactorily clarified. The key is with the words 'in accordance with', and how they relate to the rest of the sentence. Does it mean 'A Member State can withdraw from the union if it's constitutional processes mandate it to' or does it mean 'A Member State can only withdraw from the union if everything is done according to it's constitutional processes'?

Either reading is viable and they mean two different things.

If tested in court the semantics would involve some interpretation. On the face of it the line could just be saying that if constitutional processes, such as a referendum or a vote in the House, mandate the state to leave then it can do so. Nothing about processes involved in the act of leaving.

But I imagine lawyers could get tricksy about it and claim that 'in accordance with' means that the A50 process requires strict adherence to constitutional processes otherwise the A50 process ceases to be binding.

I'm not even sure if getting John Kerr in to explain what they intended while drafting the words would make a conclusive difference once it gets to that stage.
This.

Offline Zeb

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24632 on: August 19, 2019, 05:24:57 PM »
But what if the PM effectively suspends Parliament to prevent a vote? I am not expecting you to be able to answer this. It is just that I suspect that effectively circumventing the opportunity for (and will by) Parliament to prevent Brexit might be interpreted as a failure to adhere to the constitution. And, since the circumvention is transparently to prevent Parliament from leaving the EU, might Brexit be null and void?

The decision is made once the EU is notified and the clock, set to 2 years by default, begins. If a couple don't want to get divorced then complaining about it after the decree absolute is done, even if one of them had gone on holiday, is a bit late - they have to get remarried instead.
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Offline Mark Walters

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24633 on: August 19, 2019, 05:26:53 PM »
It is a dictatorship that masquerades as a Democracy.

to be honest Mark,it's pretty obvious that you don't know a great deal about Venezuelan politics or the hardships that the ordinary citizen faces day in day out.

If I said I knew everything about Venezuelan politics I'd be a liar but I appreciate the struggles that ordinary people have on a day-to-day basis.
"Maybe in life it's impossible to give 100 per cent to your job. Okay, I'll accept 98 per cent" Rafa Benitez

Offline Jiminy Cricket

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24634 on: August 19, 2019, 05:28:38 PM »
The decision is made once the EU is notified and the clock, set to 2 years by default, begins. If a couple don't want to get divorced then complaining about it after the decree absolute is done, even if one of them had gone on holiday, is a bit late - they have to get remarried instead.
Well, if we are going to resort to metaphors, what if one half of the couple actively (and illegally) prevents the other from objecting before decree absolute?

Offline WhereAngelsPlay

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24635 on: August 19, 2019, 05:41:36 PM »
If I said I knew everything about Venezuelan politics I'd be a liar but I appreciate the struggles that ordinary people have on a day-to-day basis.


Yeah I got that when you talked about their "democratically" elected despot.
My cup, it runneth over, I'll never get my fill

Offline Mark Walters

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24636 on: August 19, 2019, 05:45:18 PM »
An interesting and somewhat depressing piece, not primarily about Brexit.

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2019/08/why-liberals-now-believe-conspiracies

What a bullshit article!
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Offline Mark Walters

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24637 on: August 19, 2019, 05:45:47 PM »

Yeah I got that when you talked about their "democratically" elected despot.
He was democratically elected though.
"Maybe in life it's impossible to give 100 per cent to your job. Okay, I'll accept 98 per cent" Rafa Benitez

Offline Zeb

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24638 on: August 19, 2019, 05:59:28 PM »
Well, if we are going to resort to metaphors, what if one half of the couple actively (and illegally) prevents the other from objecting before decree absolute?

Not liking something doesn't make it illegal or we'd not have Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson as PM. :) In any case, the legal default is clear regardless of what charades happen in Westminster. It has been since the Article 50 letter was sent to the EU, and accepted by the EU as beginning the countdown to an automatic exit. Think Jo Maugham is trying to establish the legalities of what Johnson can do to shut Parliament down because of the consequences under British law, but that's a separate issue to whether we'll be out of the EU on 31st October under international law.
"And the voices of the standing Kop still whispering in the wind will salute the wee Scots redman and he will still walk on.
And your money will have bought you nothing."

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24639 on: August 19, 2019, 06:01:23 PM »
He was democratically elected though.
it’s pretty easy when your opponents are under house arrest