Poll

RAWK and Brexit

No Deal!
65 (8.8%)
Mays Deal!
14 (1.9%)
No Brexit!
538 (72.8%)
Don't Know
10 (1.4%)
Don't Care
15 (2%)
I don't live in the UK
97 (13.1%)

Total Members Voted: 739

Author Topic: Brexit: "Vultus inanis est et mori in fossa ego sum!"  (Read 998079 times)

Offline Alan_X

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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #200 on: September 5, 2018, 05:32:39 AM »
We agree on this. My point was really being made to those who think it would be much different under a Labour government once Brexit has happened. The idea that a Labour administration will be able to return to the EU is bordering on the delusional, which is why such efforts must be made for Labour to change policy and stop Brexit altogether.

It won't be rich people like me who have the choice to move to another country, nor the well-off who stay at home that end up eating the toxin-ridden food that will be arriving through the three day customs wait at the border.

The current Labour leadership arenít interested in gettting back in. They want out but want the Tories to do the dirty deed.

The problem a future Corbyn Labour Government faces isnít getting back in - thatís not happening. Itís that the assumption that the rest of the world will be super nice in dealings with the UK because Labour are in charge. To be fair, itís hard to imagine anyone being less competent than the current batch of Tories.
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Offline a treeless whopper

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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #201 on: September 5, 2018, 07:01:22 AM »
Burnham spends most of the time telling everyone how shit immigration is and how we need to placate those concerns and is now going to do a speech where he says we should lobby the EU to extend the article 50 deadline to avoid leaving without a deal. Just like most MPís, another politician who is useless in all this.

Offline Banquo's Ghost

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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #202 on: September 5, 2018, 07:03:14 AM »
The current Labour leadership arenít interested in gettting back in. They want out but want the Tories to do the dirty deed.

The problem a future Corbyn Labour Government faces isnít getting back in - thatís not happening. Itís that the assumption that the rest of the world will be super nice in dealings with the UK because Labour are in charge. To be fair, itís hard to imagine anyone being less competent than the current batch of Tories.

Of course, I agree with this.

You would certainly think it would be impossible to exceed the drooling shambles of cockwombles that is May's government, but I have to admire the sheer innovation of the current leadership in transforming the party I was a devoted member of for forty years into a by-word for anti-Semitism. As spectacularly incompetent leadership goes, I'm not sure even Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson could have pulled that one off.
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Offline Red_Mist

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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #203 on: September 5, 2018, 07:28:48 AM »
The funniest thing (although funny isnít really the word) about Corbyn still being on the side of Leave is that the vast majority of voters left in the country who also want to leave absolutely detest Jeremy Corbyn with a real passion heíll never quite understand. He could don his Union Jack tie, dye his hair black, put on a pair of Jacob Reed-Mogg glasses and sing justice for Tommy and theyíd still label him a terrorist sympathising danger to the country. Heís not shaking that, ever. So why is Labour even remotely worried about losing their votes? Theyíve already lost them. Whatís the point of a GE if Labour isnít offering an alternative policy to Leave? Starmerís asking questions that he canít answer himself. The worldís gone fucking mad.

Online Just Elmo?

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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #204 on: September 5, 2018, 08:50:55 AM »
Edit:  and the hilarious thing would be that we would have to adopt the euro

There is no legal mechanism for forcing a country to join the euro, even new members. You have to commit to joining at some point in the future but can delay indefinitely taking the voluntary steps that are prerequisites for joining the euro (joining ERM).

Offline SlowRap

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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #205 on: September 5, 2018, 09:19:32 AM »
Can you re-open the labour thread so that the Corbyn slagging can have a place?
"We must turn from doubters into believers" - Jurgen Klopp


I've got a feeling that Origi is the real deal, from a couple of games I watched but mainly his interviews there seems to be something about him.

Offline The Gulleysucker

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Offline SlowRap

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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #207 on: September 5, 2018, 09:23:41 AM »
Allowing the Labour Party to become inextricably linked to anti-semitism for reasons that have nothing to do with the day-to-day concerns of 99% if Labour voters is pretty suicidal. But that hasnít stopped Corbyn and his followers making it front page news.

Why exactly is it essential that a Labour Party member has to have a special definition of anti-semitism? Thatís the issue that is worth taking a stand over but protecting the jobs and future of working people in Britain isnít?

Can you see why I think Corbyn and his mates have their priorities a little mixed up.

Because Brexit was always going to be a mess and likely to lose support. But (I hope) anti-semitism isnít an issue where the public are moving towards the views of far too many of Corbynís mates.
You only allow it to be linked to that if you swallow the MSM narrative.

Westminster voting intention:

LAB: 41% (+1)
CON: 37% (-1)
UKIP: 7% (+4)
LDEM: 6% (-4)
GRN: 2% (-)

via @Survation, 31 Aug - 01 Sep
Chgs. w/ 07 Jul

"We must turn from doubters into believers" - Jurgen Klopp


I've got a feeling that Origi is the real deal, from a couple of games I watched but mainly his interviews there seems to be something about him.

Offline SlowRap

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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #208 on: September 5, 2018, 09:29:59 AM »
I now live in New Zealand
It won't be rich people like me
Glad you took the time to preach to us plebs back here in the UK.
"We must turn from doubters into believers" - Jurgen Klopp


I've got a feeling that Origi is the real deal, from a couple of games I watched but mainly his interviews there seems to be something about him.

Offline WhereAngelsPlay

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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #209 on: September 5, 2018, 09:49:33 AM »
MSM narrative.

 ::)

It's just short for wah-wah-wah press aren't reporting what I want to hear.
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Online Tepid T₂O

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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #211 on: September 5, 2018, 10:47:34 AM »
There is no legal mechanism for forcing a country to join the euro, even new members. You have to commit to joining at some point in the future but can delay indefinitely taking the voluntary steps that are prerequisites for joining the euro (joining ERM).
Thanks..

Thatís an interesting distinction..  you comit to it only... didnít realise that
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Offline Trump's tiny tiny hands

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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #212 on: September 5, 2018, 10:50:36 AM »

Reuters UK

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May to make emergency statement to parliament - Times https://reut.rs/2oIWflr


Offline Ray K

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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #213 on: September 5, 2018, 10:57:31 AM »
Reuters UK

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May to make emergency statement to parliament - Times https://reut.rs/2oIWflr

About Salisbury poisoning.
"We have to change from doubters to believers"

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Online Just Elmo?

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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #214 on: September 5, 2018, 11:19:24 AM »
Thanks..

Thatís an interesting distinction..  you comit to it only... didnít realise that

The Scottish Indyref debate taught me a lot of stuff like this about the EU....  ;D

Offline Zeb

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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #215 on: September 5, 2018, 12:37:07 PM »
Interesting from John Curtice on what seems to be changing voters minds about Brexit so far, on the new NatCen polling released today (done July).

Quote
Although it is often argued that voters are viewing Brexit through a partisan lens that means the same event or development is interpreted very differently by Remain and Leave voters, our survey shows that, in some respects at least, voters have changed their minds quite considerably about various aspects of the Brexit process over the course of the last two years. Voters seem, for example, to have become somewhat less concerned about controlling EU migration, less convinced that British companies will be able to trade freely in the EU after Brexit, and much less inclined to believe that the UK will secure a good deal from the negotiations. Moreover, while they might, perhaps, have reached these conclusions for different reasons, these patterns are just as much in evidence among Leave voters as their Remain-supporting counterparts.

However, it seems that none of these attitudes and evaluations are having much impact on votersí continued willingness to back Leave or Remain, or on the preference for staying or leaving now expressed by those who did not vote two years ago. Rather, what matters above all in both cases is what voters think the economic consequences of Brexit will be.

Over 90% of those voters who voted Remain in June 2016 and who think that Britainís economy will get worse as a result of Brexit say that they would vote the same way again in a second referendum. Equally, over 90% of those who backed Leave two years ago and who think the economy will be better off in the wake of Brexit state that they would vote Leave again. In short, hardly anyone who endorses Ďtheirí sideís economic argument has changed their mind.

However, these figures fall off quite markedly among those who take a different view of the economics of Brexit. Only around three-quarters of those Remain voters who think that leaving the EU will not make much difference to the economy say they would vote Remain again, while the equivalent figure among Leave voters is much the same. Meanwhile, less than half of those Remain voters who are now of the view that Britainís economy will be better off as a result of Brexit would vote the same way, while the same is true of Leave supporters who believe the economy will be worse off.

Compare this picture, for example, with the one that we obtain if we look at the link between votersí willingness to vote the same way again and their perceptions of how good or bad a deal Britain will obtain from the Brexit process. Again, at least 90% of Remain voters who think Britain will secure a bad deal and 90% of Leave voters who reckon the country will obtain a good one say that they would vote the same way again. But even among Remain voters who think Britain might win a good deal, around two-thirds would still vote Remain again, while no less than three-quarters of those who voted Leave and think there deal will be a bad one would still vote the same way Ė not least because in many cases they are inclined to blame the EU for this prospect. In short, votersí perceptions of the kind of deal Britain will get are much less sharply linked to the probability that they would vote the same way again than are their evaluations of the economic consequences of Brexit.

Much the same is true of those who did not vote in the 2016 referendum (some of whom, of course, were too young to vote in 2016). Around seven in ten of those abstainers who think the economy will be worse off as a result of Brexit say they would now vote Remain, while seven in ten who think the economy will be better off state that they would vote Leave. In contrast, while around two-thirds of those abstainers who think Britain will secure a bad deal say they would vote Remain, well under half of those who think the country will obtain a good deal indicate that they would vote Remain.

The relative importance of the perceived economic consequences of leaving the EU in shaping votersí attitudes towards the merits or otherwise of Brexit is potentially a disadvantage for the Leave side in the battle for public opinion. While four in five Remain voters think that the economy would be worse off as a result of Brexit, only around half of Leave voters reckon it will be better off Ė a proportion that has also fallen somewhat over the last two years. Equally, over a half of those who abstained in 2016 believe that the economy will be worse off while only around one in five feel it will be better off. Between them these two patterns help explain why, according to our survey, Leave voters appear somewhat less likely than Remain voters to say that they would vote the same way again, and why those who did not vote in 2016 are now more likely to say that they would vote Remain rather than Leave.

Perhaps we should not be surprised that the debate about the economic consequences of Brexit has apparently been playing a central role in shaping the turnover of support for Remain and Leave since the June 2016 referendum, such as it is. After all, how people voted in that referendum reflected their view of the economic consequences of leaving the EU more than it did any other single consideration Ė and not least of the reasons why Remain lost that referendum is that, at the time of the referendum, only around two-fifths of voters thought Britainís economy would lose out as a result of leaving the EU.

NatCen Social Research

Too naive to think that a strong left wing anti-austerity message tied to either 'Remain' or a 'soft' Brexit would be effective?
« Last Edit: September 5, 2018, 12:39:27 PM by Zeb »
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Offline oldfordie

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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #216 on: September 5, 2018, 12:44:42 PM »
Well, that's it then, Mays asked how she will get a deal by October and her answer is her Chequers plan is a good plan that will protects jobs and the economy. the Chequers plan was dead in the water as soon as she told us the details, it will never be accepted by the EU and she knows it.
If this is her Brinkmanship plan then it's not going to work, their will be no last minute phone calls from the EU telling her she can have what she want's.
I don't think they know what to do next. this is no surprise as she is now facing realty. nobody can deliver the Brexit we need with our red lines. the surprise is we are still going ahead with Brexit under the pretense of everything's going to be ok.
Corbyn asks her a very good question, she keeps saying her Brexit will protect jobs and the economy but how many Companies have told her privately that they will relocate if we don't get the deal we need. she refuses to answer the question.
I take that to mean tariff free frictionless trading without bureaucracy. the legality to trade in the EU, Licenses etc.
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Offline Alan_X

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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #217 on: September 5, 2018, 01:51:42 PM »
You only allow it to be linked to that if you swallow the MSM narrative.

Westminster voting intention:

LAB: 41% (+1)
CON: 37% (-1)
UKIP: 7% (+4)
LDEM: 6% (-4)
GRN: 2% (-)

via @Survation, 31 Aug - 01 Sep
Chgs. w/ 07 Jul



If I want to see Labour linked to anti-semitism I just need to read the Twitter feeds of some of his most ardent supporters. Or talk to Jewish friends and acquaintances who are appalled at Labourís behaviour and the constant excusing of rabid anti-semitism in his core support.

Or maybe the Jews are plotting to get him? You tell me.
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Offline Alan_X

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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #218 on: September 5, 2018, 02:22:01 PM »
Can you re-open the labour thread so that the Corbyn slagging can have a place?

Why? Is there a more important and more relevant issue than Brexit? If you think Labourís stance over Brexit is right then defend it in here.

I donít want to be talking about anti-semitism but unlike you being a few points ahead in the polls against a shambolic Tory party doesnít make it ok. What level of anti-semitism is now acceptable in The Labour Party? You seem to be suggesting it doesnít matter as long as Labour is ahead in the polls. 
Sid Lowe (@sidlowe)
09/03/2011 08:04
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Offline SlowRap

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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #219 on: September 5, 2018, 02:45:51 PM »
Why? Is there a more important and more relevant issue than Brexit? If you think Labourís stance over Brexit is right then defend it in here.

I donít want to be talking about anti-semitism but unlike you being a few points ahead in the polls against a shambolic Tory party doesnít make it ok. What level of anti-semitism is now acceptable in The Labour Party? You seem to be suggesting it doesnít matter as long as Labour is ahead in the polls.
Why are you bringing up and talking about antisemitism in the EU thread? That has nothing to do with this thread, I'm not telling you how to do your job but wouldn't it be better to bring this stuff up in a separate topic?
"We must turn from doubters into believers" - Jurgen Klopp


I've got a feeling that Origi is the real deal, from a couple of games I watched but mainly his interviews there seems to be something about him.

Offline a treeless whopper

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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #220 on: September 5, 2018, 03:13:34 PM »
Interesting from John Curtice on what seems to be changing voters minds about Brexit so far, on the new NatCen polling released today (done July).

NatCen Social Research

Too naive to think that a strong left wing anti-austerity message tied to either 'Remain' or a 'soft' Brexit would be effective?

About the changing attitudes thing, there is quite a lot of Brexit stuff being pumped out by the Mail, ThisIsMoney etc. Wonder if this is having some small effect?

Offline Iska

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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #221 on: September 5, 2018, 03:33:32 PM »
About the changing attitudes thing, there is quite a lot of Brexit stuff being pumped out by the Mail, ThisIsMoney etc. Wonder if this is having some small effect?
What sort of stuff?  Doom stuff?

Offline Zeb

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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #222 on: September 5, 2018, 03:35:00 PM »
About the changing attitudes thing, there is quite a lot of Brexit stuff being pumped out by the Mail, ThisIsMoney etc. Wonder if this is having some small effect?

That's possible. As you say, it's still a small effect so far. Or at least is overall. Was an interesting survey done focusing on women's views by Yougov, which is a bit more recent than the NatCen survey.



And on the economic impact.



(Tables found linked, in xls format, here)

Alan mentioned about assumptions to the process. I do wonder whether some of this is because some people haven't clocked that there's no safety net to this. That said, I'm just watching Hoey, in select committee, try to deny the Irish border is a particular problem because it's already got cameras covering it while the minister and his senior civil servant are telling her that the entire government agree it's quite a large problem to solve.

« Last Edit: September 5, 2018, 03:39:29 PM by Zeb »
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Offline Iska

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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #223 on: September 5, 2018, 04:21:57 PM »
And on the economic impact.
Itís absolutely killing me that these three questions:
ē There should continue to be complete freedom for people from the rest of the EU to live in Britain;
ē People from the EU should be free to come to Britain as long as they have a job to come to, or a place at a British university;
ē We should sharply reduce the number of people coming to Britain from the EU whatever their reason for coming;
still donít carry the quid pro quo: ď... and British people should have the same freedom to do the same in other EU countries.Ē  Because thatís the deal.  Thatís what (among other things) weíre giving up.

Itís my problem at this stage - British people, by and large, donít and never have cared about what happens abroad.  They have no intention of going there for anything other than a holiday.  For them the EU has only ever been a Place That Does Things To Us.  Looking at that half of the picture is the only way that leaving can make any sort of sense.

Offline a treeless whopper

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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #224 on: September 5, 2018, 04:57:35 PM »
What sort of stuff?  Doom stuff?

Stuff about Brexit and its impact on household finances, interest rates etc.

Offline Lush is the best medicine...

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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #225 on: September 5, 2018, 05:33:31 PM »
About the changing attitudes thing, there is quite a lot of Brexit stuff being pumped out by the Mail, ThisIsMoney etc. Wonder if this is having some small effect?
dacre has gone hasnít he?

Offline Alan_X

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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #226 on: September 5, 2018, 06:31:11 PM »
Why are you bringing up and talking about antisemitism in the EU thread? That has nothing to do with this thread, I'm not telling you how to do your job but wouldn't it be better to bring this stuff up in a separate topic?

First, I’m not sure what my job has to do with anything. Apart from the fact that I’m posting in here because my business (and many that I deal with) has already been affected by Brexit. It’s going to be a shit show that affects people’s futures. It’s not a thought experiment - it’s real life and I am fucking furious with anyone who has allowed this to happen through action or inaction.

If by ‘my job’ you mean moderation, that’s some voluntary stuff that the admin team do to try and make the site work as best as we can.

There isn’t a Labour or a Corbyn thread because we all know what a cesspit it will be, because it will come down to opinions rather than facts. However, the Labour Party’s position on Brexit  is fundamental to any discussion on the subject.

If course we could ban discussion on Brexit entirely - we’re a footy site after all - but it’s an important discussion that we’re happy to let run (within reason). 

Anti-semitism was raised because it was said that Corbyn couldn’t take a stand on Brexit for political reasons. My point is that he’s happy to take a stand that enables anti-semitism in the Party among some of his closest and oldest allies.

If Corbyn was passionate about being in the EU he would have (or should have) campaigned for it in principle from day one. He didn’t because he’s a eurosceptic and always has been.

As for anti-semitism, the easiest way to deal with the problem was to get rid of the anti-Semitic arseholes  in the party and unequivocally adopt the IHRA definition of anti-semitism. But that’s not going to happen either, because there’s an obsession in his group with the Middle East that trumps UK politics. 
« Last Edit: September 5, 2018, 06:33:22 PM by Alan_X »
Sid Lowe (@sidlowe)
09/03/2011 08:04
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Offline Zeb

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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #227 on: September 5, 2018, 06:37:42 PM »
So far is it goes, Starmer's been interesting on Labour's position again.

Quote
Starmer said it was clear that Mayís central proposals of customs facilitation and a common rulebook on goods but not for services ďcannot form the basis of a dealĒ and that the prime minister and others should not pretend otherwise.

It was therefore vital, in order to win parliamentís support, he said, that May moved to back a deal that brought the UK further into the EUís orbit, by negotiating a new customs union and signing up to EU acquis on both services and goods while accepting the jurisdiction of a common court.

Starmer pointed out that his party had set the government the task of meeting a series of targets in order to gain its support in parliament, including that the deal offers the ďexact same benefitsĒ as the UK currently has as a member of the single market and customs union and that it delivers for all regions of the country.

He said: ďWe have our six tests and [the free trade deal] wouldnít meet them and I donít think it would be approved by the Conservative party because you have the other wing who would be concerned about the distance between a Canada deal from where we are now.

ďAt the end, the central problem for the prime minister is always the same: she has a warring party behind her, and the two sides canít agree sufficiently to allow her to get a deal through unless she goes for a customs union plus single market deal with shared regulations and institutions. That I think would have a majority in parliament.Ē

Starmer added: ďWhatever the agreement Ė if there is one Ė it has to keep to the solemn commitment of no hard border with Northern Ireland. The only combination that will meet that commitment is a customs union with the EU and a single market deal with high alignment.Ē

Starmer said his concern was that he did not believe May was strong enough to adapt her position without facing an challenge to her premiership.

Labour has said it is keeping all options on the table, including that of a second referendum, should parliament fail to back any deal May strikes with Brussels.

Guardian

There's a logical end point to where he's going there. If we are to leave. Whether he's pushing it in the face of shadow front bench opposition is another thing altogether.
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Offline Alan_X

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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #228 on: September 5, 2018, 06:43:32 PM »
So far is it goes, Starmer's been interesting on Labour's position again.

Guardian

There's a logical end point to where he's going there. If we are to leave. Whether he's pushing it in the face of shadow front bench opposition is another thing altogether.

Thatís eminently sensible but bears little relation to what Corbyn and McDonnell have been saying.
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Offline Zeb

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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #229 on: September 5, 2018, 07:05:31 PM »
Thatís eminently sensible but bears little relation to what Corbyn and McDonnell have been saying.

I think there's a shift starting there. Has been for a couple of months. Just whether they're seeing the bigger picture of best for the country or whether it'll boil down to a shibboleth vote against the whip for the PLP.
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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #230 on: September 5, 2018, 07:38:08 PM »
First, Iím not sure what my job has to do with anything. Apart from the fact that Iím posting in here because my business (and many that I deal with) has already been affected by Brexit. Itís going to be a shit show that affects peopleís futures. Itís not a thought experiment - itís real life and I am fucking furious with anyone who has allowed this to happen through action or inaction.

If by Ďmy jobí you mean moderation, thatís some voluntary stuff that the admin team do to try and make the site work as best as we can.

There isnít a Labour or a Corbyn thread because we all know what a cesspit it will be, because it will come down to opinions rather than facts. However, the Labour Partyís position on Brexit  is fundamental to any discussion on the subject.

If course we could ban discussion on Brexit entirely - weíre a footy site after all - but itís an important discussion that weíre happy to let run (within reason). 

Anti-semitism was raised because it was said that Corbyn couldnít take a stand on Brexit for political reasons. My point is that heís happy to take a stand that enables anti-semitism in the Party among some of his closest and oldest allies.

If Corbyn was passionate about being in the EU he would have (or should have) campaigned for it in principle from day one. He didnít because heís a eurosceptic and always has been.

As for anti-semitism, the easiest way to deal with the problem was to get rid of the anti-Semitic arseholes  in the party and unequivocally adopt the IHRA definition of anti-semitism. But thatís not going to happen either, because thereís an obsession in his group with the Middle East that trumps UK politics.
I don't understand how the two are connected so I'll bow out, I'll just add that Corbyn can be a brexiteer but if the party votes on the policy he as leader will be forced to implement it, just as May (a remainer) is forced to implement Brexit
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Offline Alan_X

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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #231 on: September 5, 2018, 07:41:44 PM »
I think there's a shift starting there. Has been for a couple of months. Just whether they're seeing the bigger picture of best for the country or whether it'll boil down to a shibboleth vote against the whip for the PLP.

Reading through it again the question for me is whatís the Labour deal that would pass the six tests? Itís all well and good saying the Chequers deal isnít acceptable. We all know that. What exactly would the Ďgovernment in waitingí do differently?

What does a ĎBrexit for jobsí look like?

I wonít hold my breath waiting for Corbyn supporters to explain because itís as big a fucking fantasy as all the various Tory Brexit shambles from Chequers to Cake-and-eat-it to whatever nightmare Rees-Mogg is currently proposing.

 
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Offline Alan_X

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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #232 on: September 5, 2018, 07:50:47 PM »
I don't understand how the two are connected so I'll bow out, I'll just add that Corbyn can be a brexiteer but if the party votes on the policy he as leader will be forced to implement it, just as May (a remainer) is forced to implement Brexit

Bless you for your faith mate. The Corbyn sheep will do as theyíre told and any discussion or vote on Brexit will be kicked into the long grass. Discussing Brexit, like tackling anti-semitism (sorry but there you go) is an attack on Jeremy and therefore not allowed.
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09/03/2011 08:04
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Offline ShakaHislop

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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #233 on: September 5, 2018, 07:54:53 PM »
So far is it goes, Starmer's been interesting on Labour's position again.

Guardian

There's a logical end point to where he's going there. If we are to leave. Whether he's pushing it in the face of shadow front bench opposition is another thing altogether.

Quote
Starmer added: ďWhatever the agreement Ė if there is one Ė it has to keep to the solemn commitment of no hard border with Northern Ireland. The only combination that will meet that commitment is a customs union with the EU and a single market deal with high alignment

and an end to FOM is what Labour have said they are looking for, so there's no position they can take when it comes to the parliamentary vote in which they don't look like hypocrites. Either honour the pledge to end FOM and support a deal that makes that happen but which will mean allowing the government to fail one of the "six tests", or support EEA membership but in the process betray the "heartlands" on immigration.

Offline Zeb

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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #234 on: September 5, 2018, 08:02:44 PM »
Reading through it again the question for me is whatís the Labour deal that would pass the six tests? Itís all well and good saying the Chequers deal isnít acceptable. We all know that. What exactly would the Ďgovernment in waitingí do differently?

What does a ĎBrexit for jobsí look like?

I wonít hold my breath waiting for Corbyn supporters to explain because itís as big a fucking fantasy as all the various Tory Brexit shambles from Chequers to Cake-and-eat-it to whatever nightmare Rees-Mogg is currently proposing.

 

It's all nonsense unless you're arguing for the status quo, isn't it? Said at the time that Starmer's six tests were like Gordon's for the Euro. Virtuous in being both sensible and guaranteed to give only one result. Problem this time, of course, is there isn't an option to keep things how they are without actually fighting for it.

See how far conference moves things, if enough can be pulled away from the internal bunfights.
"And the voices of the standing Kop still whispering in the wind will salute the wee Scots redman and he will still walk on.
And your money will have bought you nothing."

Offline Zeb

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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #235 on: September 5, 2018, 08:05:19 PM »
and an end to FOM is what Labour have said they are looking for, so there's no position they can take when it comes to the parliamentary vote in which they don't look like hypocrites. Either honour the pledge to end FOM and support a deal that makes that happen but which will mean allowing the government to fail one of the "six tests", or support EEA membership but in the process betray the "heartlands" on immigration.

Think the Westminster argument will end up being presenting powers the government already has as something 'new'. Whether that will wash... But, yeah, it's nonsensical to ask for things to stay the same while also insisting we're definitely going on a Brexit.
"And the voices of the standing Kop still whispering in the wind will salute the wee Scots redman and he will still walk on.
And your money will have bought you nothing."

Offline Red_Mist

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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #236 on: September 5, 2018, 08:24:53 PM »
McDonnell and Corbyn are still talking GE instead of 2nd Referendum. Well, imo the only chance they will have of winning a GE is if they take the opposite stance to the Tories, I.e. say what a majority of the country thinks now itís had time to digest Brexit, that a) the Tory right wing is dangerous and must be stopped at all costs and b) the best way to do that is a second referendum which is now official Labour policy. They just need to stop titting around in this middle ground, six tests nonsense. It will win them sweet FA. And they need to get a fucking move on as theyíre rapidly running out of time. The Ents in lord of the rings make a decision quicker than this pair.

Offline Banquo's Ghost

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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #237 on: September 5, 2018, 09:03:19 PM »
Glad you took the time to preach to us plebs back here in the UK.

You are very welcome.

I suspect you are unwilling to make the effort since the ďMSM narrativeĒ position you took indicates a Trumpian mindset, but you might want to reflect on why people like me, who have financially and personally supported the Labour Party for years, and created a business that used to employ many people in the UK, have decided to leave both the party and the country because of Brexit.
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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #238 on: September 5, 2018, 09:20:22 PM »
McDonnell and Corbyn are still talking GE instead of 2nd Referendum.
because a second referendum that returns remain will probably boost the Tories for taking us off the cliff edge (plus corbyn would actually have to show some leadership and pick a side, and if he tried another half arsed remain campaign he would be fucked as he will get called out on it at the time not after the event, campaign for leave and the young will do to him what they did to the Lib Dem’s after the tuition fees debacle), a disastrous Brexit engineered by the Tories but waved through by labour without any real challenges from the leadership will hurt them massively.

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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #239 on: September 5, 2018, 09:28:20 PM »
because a second referendum that returns remain will probably boost the Tories for taking us off the cliff edge (plus corbyn would actually have to show some leadership and pick a side, and if he tried another half arsed remain campaign he would be fucked as he will get called out on it at the time not after the event, campaign for leave and the young will do to him what they did to the Lib Demís after the tuition fees debacle), a disastrous Brexit engineered by the Tories but waved through by labour without any real challenges from the leadership will hurt them massively.
I donít agree.

Only being in government will stop the rot..  they will be fully exposed then.  Nothing else will bring labour back to sanity and competence
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