Author Topic: The Alternative Premier League Table 2018-19  (Read 187018 times)

Offline Fluke

  • aka the recently dismissed General Consensus.
  • Matchday Commentator
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,612
  • We all live in a Red and White Kop.
Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2018-19
« Reply #1040 on: January 21, 2019, 09:33:22 AM »
Didn't Leicester sack old mate in the season after they won the league?
Look down, look down, you'll always be a slave.
Look down, look down, you're standing in your grave.

Offline MerseysideBrum

  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,297
  • Show them the way to go ome
Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2018-19
« Reply #1041 on: January 21, 2019, 10:13:49 AM »
Current APLT numbers:

Liverpool: 7
City: -1
Spurs: -4
Chelsea: -11
United: -9
Arsenal: -11

Matchday 24:

Liverpool: 7 Leicester (H) Par 3 (Win 7, Draw 5, Lose 4)
City: -1 Newcastle (A) Par 1 (Win 1, Draw -1, Lose -2)
Spurs: -4 Watford (H) Par 3 (Win -4, Draw -6, Lose -7)
United: -9 Burnley (H) Par 3 (Win -9, Draw -11, Lose -12)
Chelsea: -11 Bournemouth (A) Par 1 (Win -9, Draw -11, Lose -12)
Arsenal: -11 Cardiff (H) Par 3 (Win -11, Draw -13, Lose -14)

City have a chance to gain APLT ground with a very winnable par 1. Liverpool must do the business at home with a relatively tricky par 3. Spurs and United can solidify themselves in the top 4 of the APLT with home wins against very beatable opposition. Chelsea have the change to gain back the APLT they lost the last game week with a win against Bournemouth. Arsenal must win at home to Cardiff to keep their top 4 hopes alive.
The reds are coming up the hill boys.

Offline actwithoutwords

  • postswithoutreading
  • Kopite
  • *****
  • Posts: 555
Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2018-19
« Reply #1042 on: January 21, 2019, 10:48:44 AM »
Hard to believe it's not long since United were threatening to fall off the graph, and now they're above 'title challenging' Chelsea!

Offline JCB

  • Sponsors of Digger Barnes.....
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,974
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2018-19
« Reply #1043 on: January 21, 2019, 07:12:22 PM »
RAPLT: Week 23


(bottom 7)


(all teams below 0)


(3 game moving average)

Offline drmick

  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,601
Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2018-19
« Reply #1044 on: January 21, 2019, 07:30:43 PM »
RAPLT: Week 23


(bottom 7)


(all teams below 0)


(3 game moving average)

Cheers JCB,  much appreciated.

What's your view on this, particularly with reference to Everton? The RAPLT has them among Cardiff, Burnley etc in a dogfight for survival. But the real table has them in the Bournemouth Brighton should-be-safe zone.

Offline BrandoLFC

  • Should probably bugger off to Tetiaroa like his namesake did with no access to a telly or the Internet.
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,221
Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2018-19
« Reply #1045 on: January 21, 2019, 09:43:01 PM »
Somewhat disappointing, though not surprising, that the top 6 have now pulled away from the pack.  Money eventually shines through.   The thought of Wolves, Watford or Leicester being in the mix for at minimum a Europa spot was kind of cool thought.  Oh well.

Offline RedG13

  • Kopite
  • *****
  • Posts: 744
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2018-19
« Reply #1046 on: January 21, 2019, 09:44:04 PM »
RAPLT: Week 23


(bottom 7)


(all teams below 0)


(3 game moving average)
How is Par done with this table?

Online Brian Blessed

  • Gordon's ALIVE? Practically Bear Grylls. Backwards Bluesman Bastard.
  • RAWK Scribe
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 42,904
  • Super Title: Feedback Tourist #4
Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2018-19
« Reply #1047 on: January 21, 2019, 09:52:14 PM »
Everton are lucky there are so many shit teams.

Offline mabbympb

  • Branded he was a man who ran!
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,654
  • Red and White Kop
    • Instagram
Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2018-19
« Reply #1048 on: January 22, 2019, 03:48:54 PM »
RAPLT: Week 23


(bottom 7)


(all teams below 0)


(3 game moving average)

Can anyone point me in the direction of a post that explains the rules for this? Or is it the same as the top teams?

Offline royhendo

  • RAWK Staff
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 248,690
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2018-19
« Reply #1049 on: January 22, 2019, 04:14:54 PM »
Can anyone point me in the direction of a post that explains the rules for this? Or is it the same as the top teams?

Sure mate... I asked the same question a few pages back and the replies are really helpful.
https://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=340730.msg16404711#msg16404711

Online zero zero

  • Karma's a bitch. Innit.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 14,590
Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2018-19
« Reply #1050 on: January 22, 2019, 05:37:55 PM »
RAPLT: Week 23


(bottom 7)
First thought: Come on Rafa! Second thought: Oh helllllooooo. Who's this pink line

Offline drmick

  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,601
Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2018-19
« Reply #1051 on: January 22, 2019, 07:31:19 PM »
Sure mate... I asked the same question a few pages back and the replies are really helpful.
https://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=340730.msg16404711#msg16404711

I think he's asking about the RAPLT though.

Offline JCB

  • Sponsors of Digger Barnes.....
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,974
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2018-19
« Reply #1052 on: January 22, 2019, 08:33:17 PM »
How is Par done with this table?
Can anyone point me in the direction of a post that explains the rules for this? Or is it the same as the top teams?

The relegation battle differs to the standard APLT and is set up as follows:
  • 12 easiest home matches are Par 3's
  • 12 easiest away matches are par 1's
  • All other remaining games against the top of the table teams are Par 0's ( i.e. W:3, D:1, L:0  - in other words you won't drop any points if you loose these games but have the opportunity to gain some bonus points here)
Cheers JCB,  much appreciated.

What's your view on this, particularly with reference to Everton? The RAPLT has them among Cardiff, Burnley etc in a dogfight for survival. But the real table has them in the Bournemouth Brighton should-be-safe zone.

Well, you know I've had my doubts already on the validity of this model earlier this season due to Everton's inclusion in it and I've not had really much time to monitor and analyse this, however a quick glance at the real table shows them only 8 points off of Palace, Southampton & Burnley, and 9 off of Newcastle so I guess it's not as bad as I originally thought. Looking at their underlying numbers relative to Burnley (who are only 3 points off the relegation zone but level with Everton on the RAPLT) might help: 



It seems like its their home form that's dragging them down at first glance, but you can also see how they have only played 1 par 0 at home, so maybe that impacted their RAPLT score somewhat (these games you are guaranteed NOT to loose points - ie you flatline - which is the aim here).
« Last Edit: January 22, 2019, 08:36:51 PM by JCB »

Offline RedG13

  • Kopite
  • *****
  • Posts: 744
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2018-19
« Reply #1053 on: January 22, 2019, 08:35:30 PM »
The relegation battle differs to the standard APLT and is set up as follows:
  • 12 easiest home matches are Par 3's
  • 12 easiest away matches are par 1's
  • All other remaining games against the top of the table teams are Par 0's ( i.e. W:3, D:1, L:0  - in other words you won't drop any points if you loose these games but have the opportunity to gain some bonus points here)


Well, you know I've had my doubts already on the validity of this model earlier this season due to Everton's inclusion in it and I've not had really much time to monitor and analyse this, however a quick glance at the real table shows them only 8 points off of Palace, Southampton & Burnley, and 9 off of Newcastle so I guess it's not as bad as I originally thought. Looking at their underlying numbers relative to Burnley (who are only 3 points off the relegation zone but level with Everton on the RAPLT) might help: 



It seems like its their home form that's dragging them down at first glance, but you can also see how they have only played 1 par 0 at home, so maybe that impacted their RAPLT score somewhat (these games you are guaranteed NOT to loose points - ie you flatline - which is the aim here).
This makes sense thanks

Offline mabbympb

  • Branded he was a man who ran!
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,654
  • Red and White Kop
    • Instagram
Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2018-19
« Reply #1054 on: January 22, 2019, 08:43:16 PM »
Sure mate... I asked the same question a few pages back and the replies are really helpful.
https://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=340730.msg16404711#msg16404711

Ta. Followed this thread for years and always understood the concept, was asking specifically in relation to the relegation battle for example. Is that based on the easiest 7 away games being par 3 for example, or is there a different scoring  system applied?

Edit: just seen 4 or 5 new posts. Thanks!

Offline mabbympb

  • Branded he was a man who ran!
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,654
  • Red and White Kop
    • Instagram
Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2018-19
« Reply #1055 on: January 22, 2019, 08:49:20 PM »

Well, you know I've had my doubts already on the validity of this model earlier this season due to Everton's inclusion in it and I've not had really much time to monitor and analyse this, however a quick glance at the real table shows them only 8 points off of Palace, Southampton & Burnley, and 9 off of Newcastle so I guess it's not as bad as I originally thought. Looking at their underlying numbers relative to Burnley (who are only 3 points off the relegation zone but level with Everton on the RAPLT) might help: 

is it easy to apply the model to previous seasons? The aplt always comes up trumps once complete. Applying this model to previous seasons if possible would give a good indicator of its validity against the final table.

Offline JCB

  • Sponsors of Digger Barnes.....
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,974
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2018-19
« Reply #1056 on: January 22, 2019, 08:58:20 PM »
is it easy to apply the model to previous seasons? The aplt always comes up trumps once complete. Applying this model to previous seasons if possible would give a good indicator of its validity against the final table.

We done that a few years back when we first developed the RAPLT on a few different models and this was the one that seemed to work the best. End of season results always matched the real thing.

Offline latortuga

  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,406
Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2018-19
« Reply #1057 on: January 22, 2019, 09:29:43 PM »
First thought: Come on Rafa! Second thought: Oh helllllooooo. Who's this pink line

First thought: Fvck off Burnley!

Offline drmick

  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,601
Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2018-19
« Reply #1058 on: January 22, 2019, 09:39:45 PM »
The relegation battle differs to the standard APLT and is set up as follows:
  • 12 easiest home matches are Par 3's
  • 12 easiest away matches are par 1's
  • All other remaining games against the top of the table teams are Par 0's ( i.e. W:3, D:1, L:0  - in other words you won't drop any points if you loose these games but have the opportunity to gain some bonus points here)


Well, you know I've had my doubts already on the validity of this model earlier this season due to Everton's inclusion in it and I've not had really much time to monitor and analyse this, however a quick glance at the real table shows them only 8 points off of Palace, Southampton & Burnley, and 9 off of Newcastle so I guess it's not as bad as I originally thought. Looking at their underlying numbers relative to Burnley (who are only 3 points off the relegation zone but level with Everton on the RAPLT) might help: 



It seems like its their home form that's dragging them down at first glance, but you can also see how they have only played 1 par 0 at home, so maybe that impacted their RAPLT score somewhat (these games you are guaranteed NOT to loose points - ie you flatline - which is the aim here).


Hmmmm. Like the APLT, you have to win your home games, in this case the 12 easiest ones. Hard to see them take points off the rest of the big 6 at Goodison. Other than LFC of course ;)

The RAPLT (kind of) predicts that they are destined to finish among that Burnley group.

Offline JC the Messiah

  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,799
  • ♪ ...and now Jürgen-a believe us... ♬
Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2018-19
« Reply #1059 on: January 22, 2019, 09:45:07 PM »
That's really interesting. Where's it from mate, and does it get updated every week?

I put it together as I thought it'd show the relative positions better than the actual league table. Guess a bar chart would show the same thing.

I'll update it to take on to account the most recent games.
"I said to the boys before the game it would be impossible. But because it’s you, I say we have a chance."
Jürgen Klopp, 7 May 2019

"I told them if we score it will be different. We scored. It was different."
Rafael Benitez, 25 May 2005

Offline farawayred

  • Whizz For Atomms. Nucular boffin. A Mars A Day Helps Him Work, Rest And Play
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 18,660
  • Oh yes, I'm a believer!
Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2018-19
« Reply #1060 on: January 23, 2019, 09:45:33 PM »
I don't know if this has been posted earlier, but I find this representation of the league winning odds interesting, especially the graphical aspect:
https://www.euroclubindex.com/league-odds/
Cruyff: "Victory is not enough, there also needs to be beautiful football."

Offline latortuga

  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,406
Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2018-19
« Reply #1061 on: January 24, 2019, 03:56:33 AM »
I don't know if this has been posted earlier, but I find this representation of the league winning odds interesting, especially the graphical aspect:
https://www.euroclubindex.com/league-odds/

Their model suggests City will drop 12 points over the next 15 games ie. the equivalent of losing 4 games.  That's extremely improbable and suggestive of a major flaw in their calculations.  From a brief understanding of the methodology they use, they seem to be giving too much weight to City's 16/17 season when they dropped 14 points in their last 15 games. 


Offline royhendo

  • RAWK Staff
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 248,690
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2018-19
« Reply #1062 on: January 24, 2019, 06:46:37 AM »
I think he's asking about the RAPLT though.

My bad 🙃

Offline BassTunedToRed

  • This X-Axis goes up to 11.
  • Kopite
  • *****
  • Posts: 721
    • Bass Tuned To Red
Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2018-19
« Reply #1063 on: January 24, 2019, 08:38:24 AM »
I don't know if this has been posted earlier, but I find this representation of the league winning odds interesting, especially the graphical aspect:
https://www.euroclubindex.com/league-odds/

They're more confident in us than the bookmakers are! An average taken from 27 bookies gives us a 54.7% chance, and City 42.5%. That instinctively feels a bit more accurate than Euro Club Index's 63.4% and 33%.

Offline RedG13

  • Kopite
  • *****
  • Posts: 744
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2018-19
« Reply #1064 on: January 24, 2019, 09:20:07 AM »
They're more confident in us than the bookmakers are! An average taken from 27 bookies gives us a 54.7% chance, and City 42.5%. That instinctively feels a bit more accurate than Euro Club Index's 63.4% and 33%.
538 has Us at 71% and City at 29%. So they seems much higher then bookies and Euro club
https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/soccer-predictions/premier-league/

Offline BassTunedToRed

  • This X-Axis goes up to 11.
  • Kopite
  • *****
  • Posts: 721
    • Bass Tuned To Red
Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2018-19
« Reply #1065 on: January 24, 2019, 10:27:51 AM »
538 has Us at 71% and City at 29%. So they seems much higher then bookies and Euro club
https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/soccer-predictions/premier-league/

Yeah their model seem to take big swings each time either team drops points. I suppose it's the pessimist in me that believes the bookies are the most accurate!

Offline Charlie Adams fried egg right

  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,975
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2018-19
« Reply #1066 on: January 24, 2019, 10:30:05 AM »
I'd always go with the bookies on things like this.

Online Brian Blessed

  • Gordon's ALIVE? Practically Bear Grylls. Backwards Bluesman Bastard.
  • RAWK Scribe
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 42,904
  • Super Title: Feedback Tourist #4
Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2018-19
« Reply #1067 on: January 24, 2019, 03:21:22 PM »
Yeah their model seem to take big swings each time either team drops points. I suppose it's the pessimist in me that believes the bookies are the most accurate!

538 makes sizeable swings between the teams playing After we won on Saturday, and before Manchester City won on Sunday I think they had it 75/25 or 80/20. If they win their next league game, I expect it will be about 50/50 before we play.

So yeah, I'm with you, the bookies are a better indicator of what is really guess work.

Offline BoRed

  • BoRing
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 10,140
  • BoRac
Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2018-19
« Reply #1068 on: January 24, 2019, 03:59:08 PM »
The bookies shift their odds to make sure they win regardless of the outcome, so they are only an indicator of how people are betting.

This guy has us at 75.5%: http://www.sportsclubstats.com/England/Premier.html

Offline royhendo

  • RAWK Staff
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 248,690
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2018-19
« Reply #1069 on: January 24, 2019, 04:00:51 PM »
The bookies shift their odds to make sure they win regardless of the outcome, so they are only an indicator of how people are betting.

Hmmm... I'd stay clear of bookies if I was you BoRed.

Offline a treeless whopper

  • Hates everyone and everything. Including YOU! Negativity not just for Christmas. Thinks 'irony' means 'metallic'......
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 53,401
Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2018-19
« Reply #1070 on: January 24, 2019, 04:02:14 PM »
The bookies shift their odds to make sure they win regardless of the outcome, so they are only an indicator of how people are betting.

This guy has us at 75.5%: http://www.sportsclubstats.com/England/Premier.html

I have supreme confidence in our side but no way would I class my confidence in winning this league at 75%. Guess that's the irrational fan in me talking.

I wonder what our stats on winning the league were in 13/14, before the Chelsea game....

Offline BoRed

  • BoRing
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 10,140
  • BoRac
Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2018-19
« Reply #1071 on: January 24, 2019, 04:13:14 PM »
Hmmm... I'd stay clear of bookies if I was you BoRed.

Well, obviously that's not the way they set initial odds (or at any time when their profits are balanced), but if I walked into a bookie's and staked a few million on us winning the league, you can be sure that our odds at that particular bookie would drop.

Offline BoRed

  • BoRing
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 10,140
  • BoRac
Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2018-19
« Reply #1072 on: January 24, 2019, 04:14:03 PM »
I have supreme confidence in our side but no way would I class my confidence in winning this league at 75%. Guess that's the irrational fan in me talking.

I wonder what our stats on winning the league were in 13/14, before the Chelsea game....

Neither would I. I didn't look into the details of that system, but I think probably relies overly heavily on the current standings.

Offline latortuga

  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,406
Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2018-19
« Reply #1073 on: January 24, 2019, 09:54:57 PM »
I have supreme confidence in our side but no way would I class my confidence in winning this league at 75%. Guess that's the irrational fan in me talking.

I wonder what our stats on winning the league were in 13/14, before the Chelsea game....

We had a 52% chance (based on bookmaker odds) of win/draw with Chelsea and winning our other 2 games at Crystal P and home to Newcastle so odds of 1.92.

Generally though bookmakers ante post odds are at least a few points below the real percentage chance of that outcome  - effectively 1 way they make money.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2019, 10:46:26 PM by latortuga »

Offline scalatore

  • Kopite
  • *****
  • Posts: 777
Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2018-19
« Reply #1074 on: January 24, 2019, 10:18:48 PM »
I have supreme confidence in our side but no way would I class my confidence in winning this league at 75%. Guess that's the irrational fan in me talking.

I wonder what our stats on winning the league were in 13/14, before the Chelsea game....
They have an archive of past seasons, it was almost 80% - http://www.sportsclubstats.com/2013-2014/England/Premier.html

That site's methodology isn't great, although it does work better as the season progresses and the weightings start to make more sense. Seems to be roughly in line with 538 right now though, which is fairly robust.

Offline Nessy76

  • Shits alone and doesn't condone public self-molestation. Literally Goldenballs' biggest fan
  • RAWK Scribe
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 18,086
  • We All Live In A Red And White Klopp
    • Andrew Ness Photographer
Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2018-19
« Reply #1075 on: January 25, 2019, 01:33:03 PM »
Their model suggests City will drop 12 points over the next 15 games ie. the equivalent of losing 4 games.  That's extremely improbable and suggestive of a major flaw in their calculations.  From a brief understanding of the methodology they use, they seem to be giving too much weight to City's 16/17 season when they dropped 14 points in their last 15 games.

So far City have dropped thirteen points in twenty three games this season. That implies that they might drop another nine, although even this is probably a bit high.
Fuck the Daily Mail.
Abolish FIFA
www.twitter.com/AndrewNessy

Offline Prof

  • fessor Yaffle. Full tosser.
  • RAWK Scribe
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 7,864
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
    • The Alternative Premier League Table
Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2018-19
« Reply #1076 on: January 25, 2019, 04:02:11 PM »
The odds being offered on Man City winning the league are so generous... I'm just in the waiting room at the bank as I'm going to remortgage my house to get on as much as I can on them.

If ever there was a dead cert....

Offline jillc

  • Finding Brian hard to swallow. Definitely not Paula Nancy MIllstone Jennings of 37 Wasp Villas, Greenbridge, Essex, GB10 1LL. Or maybe. Who knows.....Finds it hard to choose between Jürgen's wurst and Fat Sam's sausage.
  • Lead Matchday Commentator
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 42,103
  • "I'm surprised they didn't charge me rent"
Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2018-19
« Reply #1077 on: January 25, 2019, 04:46:34 PM »
I don't get why people even look at last season's form in the title, City had won it already by this time last year. This is a completely different story for them and us. Once the CL begins things will hot up and I certainly wouldn't dismiss the chance of them losing some more points (or us for that matter).  Let's just see what happens.
"He's trying to get right away from football. I believe he went to Everton"

Offline Nessy76

  • Shits alone and doesn't condone public self-molestation. Literally Goldenballs' biggest fan
  • RAWK Scribe
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 18,086
  • We All Live In A Red And White Klopp
    • Andrew Ness Photographer
Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2018-19
« Reply #1078 on: January 25, 2019, 05:14:30 PM »
I don't get why people even look at last season's form in the title, City had won it already by this time last year. This is a completely different story for them and us. Once the CL begins things will hot up and I certainly wouldn't dismiss the chance of them losing some more points (or us for that matter).  Let's just see what happens.

My guess is that City will drop no more than six points between now and the end of the season. That would leave us ten to play with. Pure guesswork, though.
Fuck the Daily Mail.
Abolish FIFA
www.twitter.com/AndrewNessy

Offline Ghost Town

  • Bands won't play no more. Too much fighting on the dance floor! Probably one of only three people who knows the meaning of "depuratory"......
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,451
  • mundus vult decipi
Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2018-19
« Reply #1079 on: January 26, 2019, 10:08:00 AM »
Notwithstanding that we're shite, if we can get into a position where we could lose to Utd and drop a couple of points to Everton and STILL be ahead City then, well, songs might be written...

Course it won't happen because we're wham and City are a sure thing
"So that is where you'll find me; in the dust and the desolation, the gaps and the ghost towns. The eerie empty places and lost turns of the world"