Author Topic: Is Football Really Broken?  (Read 2763 times)

Offline ToneLa

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Re: Is Football Really Broken?
« Reply #40 on: February 13, 2020, 01:11:47 PM »
We should all be fans of football. Without football there is no Liverpool FC.

There is no football without Liverpool FC  8)

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Re: Is Football Really Broken?
« Reply #41 on: February 13, 2020, 01:19:22 PM »
It needs to be said once more, this is not an attack on us overall, but a measure of where the fights are in football at the moment. We have a tug of war battle between the authorities than run the game, we have a situation where teams from other leagues are attempting to change the Champions League format. Then we have the ongoing battle between the top six teams (which includes us) and everyone else. There are a combination of things at play here, people need to stop putting the LFC hat on and think beyond our club. As long as we are in the Champions League to an extent we are protected. What happens the day we possibly fall out of qualifying for the Champions League? Suddenly, we are in a very different place. We need to stop thinking about just today and maybe consider the situation tomorrow. No club is immune to the ebb and flow of football. The way a lot of the battles above are won and lost will propel us into a new footballing age, where we will have far more losers than winners.

Again, I recommend that people listen to the Anfield Wrap episode The Rise of the Super Clubs, its fascinating listening into what the future could bring for football overall.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2020, 01:57:32 PM by jillc »
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Re: Is Football Really Broken?
« Reply #42 on: February 13, 2020, 01:20:00 PM »
There is no football without Liverpool FC  8)

The two things go together, which is why we should be caring about what goes on in football generally.
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Offline Romford_Red

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Re: Is Football Really Broken?
« Reply #43 on: February 13, 2020, 01:23:17 PM »
Simply put, the problem that football has is that it is a global sport.

The big American sports can be and have been regulated to help preserve competition. These sports can do this because they have no outside competition, no rival leagues to offer greener grass to the best players.
If a European Gridiron league sprang up in actual competition and started pulling the top talents to it with higher wages, I wonder how long the NFL salary cap would last.

Until or unless the world of Football is governed as one entity (which is probably impossible), our sport will more closely resemble the natural world, where survival is a life and death fight. Where the strong survive and the weak die.

Not sure I like that. Not sure anything can be done about it


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Re: Is Football Really Broken?
« Reply #44 on: February 13, 2020, 01:23:43 PM »
I agree with some aspects but the timing of this article is awful if the journalist who wrote it does not have anything particular against LFC as he claims.

I mean for 15 years from end of 90's 2 teams Utd and Arsenal qualified every year for the CL, for much of the last 15 bar 1, Utd, dodgy Russian oligarch owned Chelsea and corrupt oil field owning Abu Dhabi  FC have won the league most times but suddenly LFC come good again and football is broken - it clearly is for some people.

It's relevant now because of the battles between various factions inside football which are being waged for the future of the game. That is why this is being highlighted. How the battles are won and lost and what comes out of them will change the way the game is run. If we can, we need to stop just thinking about our own angle in it.
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Offline Petadroli

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Re: Is Football Really Broken?
« Reply #45 on: February 13, 2020, 01:50:04 PM »
Media When Liverpool Were Terrible: "Liverpool haven't won the league for 25-30 Years, they need to accept they are a mid table club now", etc. etc.

Media Now Liverpool Are Finally Winning Some Trophies, Including One That Many Adults Have Never Seen In Their Lifetimes: "Is Football Broken?"

It's not Football's fault that United spent hundreds of millions on shite like Fred, Sanchez, Lindelof, Maguire and Bailly.

It's not Football's fault that Spurs insist on playing Rose & Aurier at fullbacks and refuse to sign any competition for Kane.

It's not Football's fault that Chelsea broke transfer rules, spent 70m on a dud keeper, spent 58m on an alright winger, and lost Loftus-Cheek whilst playing a commercial friendly.

It's not Football's fault that Liverpool have scouted incredibly well for players like Robertson at tiny fees, brought through homegrown talent like Alexander-Arnold, reinvigorated careers and latent talent like Oxlade, and are so incredibly well drilled by a great tactician that new signings look terrible for about 4 months until they get the system.

Liverpool are going to add a new name to the PL honours list and it seems like many want to play that down. If it were any other team about to win their first Premier League title it would be used as a beacon of hope to show how healthy the game is right now.


That's not the point of the article at all. It argues that unless you are a "global club" you have almost no chance to even compete for honours. Currently there are 11 global clubs: Liverpool, ManCity, ManUtd, Chelsea, Arsenal, Spurs, Juventus, PSG, Bayern, Barcelona, Madrid. Just based on finances alone, other clubs than these 11 can not compete for elite players, because they won't be able to afford the wages. The article argues that the Champions League money has just become too important and too big, therefore eliminating lots of teams from even being able to compete.

The English league is a big exception actually, because there is still some competition - at least between the traditional big teams. But if you look at Spain, Germany, Italy and France, there's one team or in the case of Spain two teams who dominate all. And lots of it has to do with the PLs bigger appeal and marketability for global audiences, and its willingness to even out the share of TV revenues for everybody in the league. Look how the TV earnings are distributed in La Liga. The financial gap is simply too big to compete, that's why Barca and Real hand out one thrashing after another.
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Re: Is Football Really Broken?
« Reply #46 on: February 13, 2020, 02:04:45 PM »
There is no football without Liverpool FC Origi...  8)
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Offline Legs

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Re: Is Football Really Broken?
« Reply #47 on: February 13, 2020, 02:22:34 PM »
I just can’t stop laughing at Spurs being lumped into this super club 11 !


Offline LallanaInPyjamas

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Re: Is Football Really Broken?
« Reply #48 on: February 13, 2020, 03:00:48 PM »
1994-2004 - Only United and Arsenal won the league
2005-2011 - Only United and Chelsea won the league
2012+ League has changed hands every season bar one, 5 different winners including us now and United in 2012. Biggest underdog in sporting history won in 2016

This is most parity we've ever had in the PL. it all hinges on collective bargaining on TV rights and whilst in the short-medium term individual bargaining would massively help Liverpool, it would eventually wreck the PL.

Where were these articles when United won a treble in 99 and 3 titles on the trot? Or when they won the league in the first week of April in 2008?

Agreed.

European football may be broken, but English football certainly isn't.
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Re: Is Football Really Broken?
« Reply #49 on: February 13, 2020, 03:09:51 PM »
That's not the point of the article at all. It argues that unless you are a "global club" you have almost no chance to even compete for honours. Currently there are 11 global clubs: Liverpool, ManCity, ManUtd, Chelsea, Arsenal, Spurs, Juventus, PSG, Bayern, Barcelona, Madrid.

And yet, Atletico have been in multiple Champions League finals, Spurs are absolutely not a historically global club but have earned their way in to that list with great youth strategies and good transfer dealings. Ajax were in the Champions League Semi-Final and only missed out on a final by ballsing up a second half after being superior for 3/4 halves.

Valencia beat Barca in the Cup final last season, Frankfurt beat Bayern in the Pokal final the season before. Aston Villa are in a cup final in this season.

AC Milan were a global powerhouse, and had this article come out 15 years ago we'd be talking about Milan instead of Juve. Previously Inter.

Yes, Serie A is a joke as is Ligue 1. The Bundesliga is going through a period of Bayern domination but that is a symptom of them systematically weakening their nearest rivals for years. Ironically, the corporate enterprise of RB Leipzig could aid in making it a more competitive league. Or is that the wrong type of competition because they are RB Leipzig?

What are we saying, that Barcelona and Real Madrid shouldn't be the biggest clubs in the world? And if not, why not?

A few years ago we were saying how great it was that Real and Barca were fighting in the derbies with two of the best teams in the world and with two of the best players ever on either team. Funnily enough as well, the best Barcelona teams haven't been bought or assembled with their big transfers, but most of their best players have been La Masia graduates.

The idea that these clubs are ever present is only a relatively recent thing. Yes I would like to see more variety in the CL knockout stages but how do you enforce that?
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Offline Charlie Adams fried egg right

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Re: Is Football Really Broken?
« Reply #50 on: February 13, 2020, 03:26:57 PM »
It needs to be said once more, this is not an attack on us overall, but a measure of where the fights are in football at the moment. We have a tug of war battle between the authorities than run the game, we have a situation where teams from other leagues are attempting to change the Champions League format. Then we have the ongoing battle between the top six teams (which includes us) and everyone else. There are a combination of things at play here, people need to stop putting the LFC hat on and think beyond our club. As long as we are in the Champions League to an extent we are protected. What happens the day we possibly fall out of qualifying for the Champions League? Suddenly, we are in a very different place. We need to stop thinking about just today and maybe consider the situation tomorrow. None of us are immune to the ebb and flow of football. The way a lot of the battles above are won and lost will propel us into a new footballing age, where we will have far more losers than winners.

Again, I recommend that people listen to the Anfield Wrap episode The Rise of the Super Clubs, its fascinating listening into what the future could bring for football overall.
The issue people have with this Jill is timing. The issues you have highlighted have been present in various guises for as long as the Champions League has existed, and as you'll know, during the big chunks of the last 3 decades we have spent outside the Champions League , we've had the financial consequences and knock on effects explained to us all too clearly from both within and outside the club.

There has been talk of breakaway leagues and European Leagues for as long as I can remember. I agree that we are now seeing different power struggles, but the root is the same - money.

It's the fact that we've literally had to drag ourselves up to the top table (playing within the rules), whilst up against huge financial imbalances, and when we get there, the likes of Delaney suddenly decide to write about how unfair and rigged it all is.

It has been for ever.

Offline Romford_Red

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Re: Is Football Really Broken?
« Reply #51 on: February 13, 2020, 03:40:59 PM »
The issue people have with this Jill is timing. The issues you have highlighted have been present in various guises for as long as the Champions League has existed, and as you'll know, during the big chunks of the last 3 decades we have spent outside the Champions League , we've had the financial consequences and knock on effects explained to us all too clearly from both within and outside the club.

There has been talk of breakaway leagues and European Leagues for as long as I can remember. I agree that we are now seeing different power struggles, but the root is the same - money.

It's the fact that we've literally had to drag ourselves up to the top table (playing within the rules), whilst up against huge financial imbalances, and when we get there, the likes of Delaney suddenly decide to write about how unfair and rigged it all is.

It has been for ever.

How many times was Tomkins deep dives into football finance used by people on here to justify how us finishing anything higher than 4th was a minor miracle?

How much have people laughed at how Man City have misinterpreted the PL's comments about one team dominating being bad and that they'd like multiple winners, when clearly it was not about them particularly.

Check your bias at the door. Leave your victimisation hat there too.

Offline Charlie Adams fried egg right

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Re: Is Football Really Broken?
« Reply #52 on: February 13, 2020, 04:00:54 PM »
How many times was Tomkins deep dives into football finance used by people on here to justify how us finishing anything higher than 4th was a minor miracle?

How much have people laughed at how Man City have misinterpreted the PL's comments about one team dominating being bad and that they'd like multiple winners, when clearly it was not about them particularly.

Check your bias at the door. Leave your victimisation hat there too.
Eh?
I said earlier in the thread that I didn't think the article was anti Liverpool.
My challenge was the fact that football has always had power struggles and financial imbalance, so why should we suddenly be having this existential debate as though it's a new phenomenon.

Oh and bias, of course I'm biased, it's a Liverpool site. I can and do see the broader picture, but I am genuinely fascinated by the way football is reported on in this country.

Offline Romford_Red

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Re: Is Football Really Broken?
« Reply #53 on: February 13, 2020, 04:09:57 PM »
Eh?
I said earlier in the thread that I didn't think the article was anti Liverpool.
My challenge was the fact that football has always had power struggles and financial imbalance, so why should we suddenly be having this existential debate as though it's a new phenomenon.

Oh and bias, of course I'm biased, it's a Liverpool site. I can and do see the broader picture, but I am genuinely fascinated by the way football is reported on in this country.

I kinda don't care mate.

You said something earlier? Well the OP said something even earlier - that we need to try and look past the fact that this happens to have been published whilst we are doing as well as we are. So what, i should take your previous post into consideration but you can just ignore the OP?

Yeah it's a Liverpool forum (though this sub is pretty no-mans land) but the point of this thread is to discuss the state of football and the excellent article it references. So yeah. People need to check their bias.

Given the content and general thrust of the article, there's some irony in not being prepared to do that.

Offline Charlie Adams fried egg right

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Re: Is Football Really Broken?
« Reply #54 on: February 13, 2020, 04:15:55 PM »
I kinda don't care mate.

You said something earlier? Well the OP said something even earlier - that we need to try and look past the fact that this happens to have been published whilst we are doing as well as we are. So what, i should take your previous post into consideration but you can just ignore the OP?

Yeah it's a Liverpool forum (though this sub is pretty no-mans land) but the point of this thread is to discuss the state of football and the excellent article it references. So yeah. People need to check their bias.

Given the content and general thrust of the article, there's some irony in not being prepared to do that.

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Offline lamonti

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Re: Is Football Really Broken?
« Reply #55 on: February 13, 2020, 08:31:36 PM »
I'd say Miguel Delaney and Tony Evans talk some absolute shite about the European Super League that's been threatening to happen every season for the last 30.

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Re: Is Football Really Broken?
« Reply #56 on: February 13, 2020, 09:25:53 PM »
Fair dos  ;D As you can see from my own shite earlier my take was just... "Huh, yeah, it's a mirror to society"

Christ, it's all capitalism and greed isn't it? Oh well. We dominated before the PL and we're dominating it now!

quite!

The guy who wrote the article has been on his high horse recently about Liverpool, not sure what triggered it (well, maybe we have an idea!), but it's kinda odd really. 

But 'whatever' is my attitude, wrong of me probably, but it is what it is. Worse things happening in football - things like how a team like Manchester city are allowed to get away with cheating and exsisting for sportwashing purposes, but things like that don't seem important to people like Miguel Delaney.  So I find it hard to get on board when a journalist start with this sort of shit that's been part and parcel of the sport for eons.
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Offline Onward Liverpudlian

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Re: Is Football Really Broken?
« Reply #57 on: February 13, 2020, 11:01:46 PM »
The guy who wrote the article has been on his high horse recently about Liverpool, not sure what triggered it (well, maybe we have an idea!), but it's kinda odd really. 

So I find it hard to get on board when a journalist start with this sort of shit that's been part and parcel of the sport for eons.

He's not fooling me, 'It's not just about LFC', 'You're missing the point' and 'read the article' he often tweets to people who are sceptical- he's playing the innocent little boy next door and butter wouldn't melt in his mouth but I'm not sure he likes the idea of LFC being back on their perch, a growing expanding club again building on its immense history, expanding the stadium, winning the big trophies again, about to stay on their perch for some time to come and in some style too with the worlds best manager.

And yes i've read the article he wrote, i've understood it, I agree with much of it believe it or not but some of the issues he raises in this article and a previous one i've seen go back as far as the eighties and even earlier but to him it's now suddenly become very very alarming and requires urgency to address to save the broken game.

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Re: Is Football Really Broken?
« Reply #58 on: February 14, 2020, 12:55:35 AM »
He had a twitter meltdown a couple of weeks back where he raised these issues but had no answer why he didn’t write the article the last two years when Man City were running away with things.


Offline ToneLa

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Re: Is Football Really Broken?
« Reply #59 on: February 14, 2020, 06:47:48 AM »
He had a twitter meltdown a couple of weeks back where he raised these issues but had no answer why he didn’t write the article the last two years when Man City were running away with things.

I think too much is being made of the timing. It is obscuring everything else in the article.

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Re: Is Football Really Broken?
« Reply #60 on: February 14, 2020, 07:30:59 AM »
I think too much is being made of the timing. It is obscuring everything else in the article.

Is right. The inability for some to see past the Liverpool aspect of the article is somewhat depressing but not that surprising.
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Offline Romford_Red

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Re: Is Football Really Broken?
« Reply #61 on: February 14, 2020, 08:18:25 AM »
Is right. The inability for some to see past the Liverpool aspect of the article is somewhat depressing but not that surprising.

and for me, even if the timing of the article IS because he doesn't like what Liverpool are doing at the moment (which I don't believe), that does not diminish it's primary thrust.

Offline mikey_LFC

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Re: Is Football Really Broken?
« Reply #62 on: February 14, 2020, 08:56:19 AM »



A lot of good points there. The most thought-provoking being, if Ajax can bring through such a top group of youngsters, then why can't any Premier League side hope to do the same.

I see absolutely no reason why in the current environment teams like Newcastle, Everton, West Ham, Southampton, Aston Villa, Wolves, Leicester etc. can't pull together a team in the same vain.

The issue is mismanagement not money. The Everton problem they highlight shows they understand there is more to than just money, at which point they bring up this status differential around global clubs. I'm not sure what they want to do about that, as changing it requires altering people's perceptions of the hierarchy of clubs, which is always likely to exist.

Within a decade there can only ever be 10 clubs who win the European Cup, 10 clubs who win the league, and it is highly likely that it will be lower than that. The global clubs have all organically established their position and the top of club football over several decades. Is there an issue with those clubs staying there? And is it not highly likely that if everything was repeated, the same clubs from the same cities would end up as the top clubs, since in general it is the biggest cities in Europe that hold the biggest clubs.

I think most supporters of most clubs understand their clubs relative position and understand they have aims tailored to their clubs own size. What is important is achieving those aims, not winning trophies. If people didn't understand that, then nobody would support clubs at the bottom of the football pyramid. To suggest otherwise misunderstands football and more widely human psychology.
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Offline Romford_Red

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Re: Is Football Really Broken?
« Reply #63 on: February 14, 2020, 09:26:00 AM »
A lot of good points there. The most thought-provoking being, if Ajax can bring through such a top group of youngsters, then why can't any Premier League side hope to do the same.

I see absolutely no reason why in the current environment teams like Newcastle, Everton, West Ham, Southampton, Aston Villa, Wolves, Leicester etc. can't pull together a team in the same vain.

The issue is mismanagement not money.
The Everton problem they highlight shows they understand there is more to than just money, at which point they bring up this status differential around global clubs. I'm not sure what they want to do about that, as changing it requires altering people's perceptions of the hierarchy of clubs, which is always likely to exist.

Within a decade there can only ever be 10 clubs who win the European Cup, 10 clubs who win the league, and it is highly likely that it will be lower than that. The global clubs have all organically established their position and the top of club football over several decades. Is there an issue with those clubs staying there? And is it not highly likely that if everything was repeated, the same clubs from the same cities would end up as the top clubs, since in general it is the biggest cities in Europe that hold the biggest clubs.

We've seen multiple times the reason why they cannot.

Southampton of the last 10 years or so are a great example. Shaw, VVD, Lovren, Clyne, Lallana, Chambers, Schneiderlin, Mane, Bale, Oxlade-Chamberlain, Walcott...
Leicester will have their stars picked off. Same with any other club not in the 'Top 6'. Traditionally tthese clubs try to hang on to the player by putting what they think is a ludicrous valuation on them, only to see one of the giant clubs pay that anyway.

I think most supporters of most clubs understand their clubs relative position and understand they have aims tailored to their clubs own size. What is important is achieving those aims, not winning trophies. If people didn't understand that, then nobody would support clubs at the bottom of the football pyramid. To suggest otherwise misunderstands football and more widely human psychology.

I don't think this is correct. I think that this is a symptom of the problem. Clubs outside of the elite (and their supporters) have accepted those realities, but if you told them that they could compete on a fairly even field and not have their best players cherry picked away from them by the insanely wealthy, I'm certain they'd much prefer to try that reality instead.

Offline Charlie Adams fried egg right

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Re: Is Football Really Broken?
« Reply #64 on: February 14, 2020, 09:28:55 AM »
I listened to the Wrap and to be honest, there wasn't too much new in there. But I do tend to read stories about football "politics" so I was aware of the Juventus and Madrid manoeuvering.

What's also interesting is the most recent commentary on the City situation; City almost justify their actions by claiming that FFP is there to preserve the established elite. To an extent I have some sympathy with that argument. Where it falls down is how City have gone about it. The 2 reasons why the Big 4 is now the Big 6 make an interesting contrast.

I know that Spurs have not won the same amount as City, but they have achieved what City haven't, which is getting to the European Cup Final and they have been virtual ever presents in the CL for the last 6-7 years. But their rise has been widely admired as opposed to the scorn thrown City's way. Possibly because of the fact that Spurs have built gradually and made good decisions, and made good use of the TV money and latterly the CL money.

What the Spurs lesson shows, is that the elite can be breached in England. Arguably Spurs have the heritage, location and fanbase that other clubs don't have.

The broader issue is whether teams from smaller leagues can make the step up, and sadly without better TV deals for the smaller leagues the answer is probably not and this is where I do have an issue about where football is heading.

I love European football, I was brought up on it, one of my earliest memories was listening to the 1976 UEFA Cup final v Bruges. I also remember hearing tales of the likes of Anderlecht, Ajax, Benfica and the great Eastern European sides. This is heritage and these are examples of teams that should be at the top table. I would prefer any of these and many more besides to be regular competitors in Europe than the artificially doped oil state backed City and PSG.

That said, I have nothing against those teams, just the way they have gone about gatecrashing the elite. If either of them gradually built, then you'd see no argument from me.


Offline mikey_LFC

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Re: Is Football Really Broken?
« Reply #65 on: February 14, 2020, 09:57:44 AM »
We've seen multiple times the reason why they cannot.

Southampton of the last 10 years or so are a great example. Shaw, VVD, Lovren, Clyne, Lallana, Chambers, Schneiderlin, Mane, Bale, Oxlade-Chamberlain, Walcott...
Leicester will have their stars picked off. Same with any other club not in the 'Top 6'. Traditionally tthese clubs try to hang on to the player by putting what they think is a ludicrous valuation on them, only to see one of the giant clubs pay that anyway.

Southampton had a good thing going. They were building towards something in a way that was respectable. The money they received from those transfers should have been reinvested in the same way they managed to sign all of the above players. What let them down and prevented them moving onto the next level was their own shortcomings.

They kept up a good transfer and youth strategy for years that has fallen away. They brought in Lovren, Clyne, Wanyama and Gazzaniga one season. The next they sold Shaw, Lallana, Lovren, Lambert and Chambers the next, bringing in Mane, Tadic, Alderweireld, Long and Bertrand. The next they sold Schneiderlin and Clyne and brought in van Dijk, Romeu and Soares. The next they sold Mane, Wanyama and Fonte, then they sold van Dijk. The issue is their youth academy has dried up and their transfers have been less prolific, but in that time they've sustained themselves as a Premier League club.

Their issue is they steered away from a strategy that was working to build the club from League One to Premier League top half. The supporters got fed up with being a selling club, but I'm sure they'd rather be that then nobody wanting their players. They brought in Mark Hughes and brought short-term signings. Only now are they starting to find their way again but I think they are in a position with Hassenhuttl to restablish their former strategy and move up the table.

That is a very successful decade for a club. You couldn't ask for much more.

The same is true of Leicester. They assembled a title winning squad and manager. They lost a few players, but reinvested well and now have a fantastic young squad, with one of the highest potentials of any squad in Europe, with a fantastic manager too. They lost Mahrez and Maguire recently, but look better for losing them, in a similar way to how we looked better post Coutinho. Selling and not sitting at the top of the food chain doesn't mean you can't build your way there, but why should it be easy. Surely you want it to be tough, take years of building and clever strategy to get there so the top trophies reward the best in the business?

I see no reason why Leicester can't sell a vision to their players to stick around. The only thing that holds them back is the size of the city they represent, not the money they can bring in. And if Leicester can do it, why not Wolves? why not Southampton? and especially why not Newcastle?

Spurs as an example have had every opportunity to try to expand, move players on and rebuild. They're doing a terrible job of it and will not be challenging any time soon because of it. But whatever way would you have it.

I don't think this is correct. I think that this is a symptom of the problem. Clubs outside of the elite (and their supporters) have accepted those realities, but if you told them that they could compete on a fairly even field and not have their best players cherry picked away from them by the insanely wealthy, I'm certain they'd much prefer to try that reality instead.

Clubs obviously would prefer to be winning top trophies but they have to be realistic and know that is a long term goal not one that'll happen with one or two seasons work. Meanwhile, just try for promotion, try to establish a foundation at a new level, try to push for top half and a cup, try to build momentum behind a club, a level of positivity around the project that will attract players so you can push for Europe, try this for a few seasons, maybe get a long run in Europe and expand your reach, do this once, twice, three times, your reputation grows and you can push for Champions League, with that brings money, prestige and an attractiveness that allows top players to come and you can make that final push to challenge.

We've had to do that over 10 years. We've had to go from consistent 7th and 8th place finishes, to a point where we could establish champions league football, build excitement around a project and then challenge. None of that was handed to us. And there is very little reason a team like Wolves couldn't follow the same trajectory.

I don't know what else these people want.
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Offline Romford_Red

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Re: Is Football Really Broken?
« Reply #66 on: February 14, 2020, 10:37:15 AM »
Southampton had a good thing going. They were building towards something in a way that was respectable. The money they received from those transfers should have been reinvested in the same way they managed to sign all of the above players. What let them down and prevented them moving onto the next level was their own shortcomings.

They kept up a good transfer and youth strategy for years that has fallen away. They brought in Lovren, Clyne, Wanyama and Gazzaniga one season. The next they sold Shaw, Lallana, Lovren, Lambert and Chambers the next, bringing in Mane, Tadic, Alderweireld, Long and Bertrand. The next they sold Schneiderlin and Clyne and brought in van Dijk, Romeu and Soares. The next they sold Mane, Wanyama and Fonte, then they sold van Dijk. The issue is their youth academy has dried up and their transfers have been less prolific, but in that time they've sustained themselves as a Premier League club.

Their issue is they steered away from a strategy that was working to build the club from League One to Premier League top half. The supporters got fed up with being a selling club, but I'm sure they'd rather be that then nobody wanting their players. They brought in Mark Hughes and brought short-term signings. Only now are they starting to find their way again but I think they are in a position with Hassenhuttl to restablish their former strategy and move up the table.

That is a very successful decade for a club. You couldn't ask for much more.

The same is true of Leicester. They assembled a title winning squad and manager. They lost a few players, but reinvested well and now have a fantastic young squad, with one of the highest potentials of any squad in Europe, with a fantastic manager too. They lost Mahrez and Maguire recently, but look better for losing them, in a similar way to how we looked better post Coutinho. Selling and not sitting at the top of the food chain doesn't mean you can't build your way there, but why should it be easy. Surely you want it to be tough, take years of building and clever strategy to get there so the top trophies reward the best in the business?

I see no reason why Leicester can't sell a vision to their players to stick around. The only thing that holds them back is the size of the city they represent, not the money they can bring in. And if Leicester can do it, why not Wolves? why not Southampton? and especially why not Newcastle?

Spurs as an example have had every opportunity to try to expand, move players on and rebuild. They're doing a terrible job of it and will not be challenging any time soon because of it. But whatever way would you have it.

Clubs obviously would prefer to be winning top trophies but they have to be realistic and know that is a long term goal not one that'll happen with one or two seasons work. Meanwhile, just try for promotion, try to establish a foundation at a new level, try to push for top half and a cup, try to build momentum behind a club, a level of positivity around the project that will attract players so you can push for Europe, try this for a few seasons, maybe get a long run in Europe and expand your reach, do this once, twice, three times, your reputation grows and you can push for Champions League, with that brings money, prestige and an attractiveness that allows top players to come and you can make that final push to challenge.

We've had to do that over 10 years. We've had to go from consistent 7th and 8th place finishes, to a point where we could establish champions league football, build excitement around a project and then challenge. None of that was handed to us. And there is very little reason a team like Wolves couldn't follow the same trajectory.

I don't know what else these people want.

Personally I think that the wealth inequality gap is the main reason these clubs have trouble convincing players to stay. The players know that they can't compete long term (or often even short term) so they jump ship rather than wait to see the inevitable. I understand why. It's a short career and just like in a footie match, they have to take their chance when it's presented to them.

Leicester are actually a really good example of when that didn't happen. Their League winning side mostly stayed for the following year. It was refreshing.

I know very well that correlation does not equal causation, but with so much data to show how the richest win and keep winning and use that influence to get richer (ad infinitum) it is something that can't be ignored. I think we're a little insulated from it in England, because we still have a number of teams that can win it on a cyclical basis.

The whole given rather than earning bit I am totally on board with. I always have been. I don't think that really belongs in the argument though. Remove City and Chelsea from the elite clubs (and Chelsea were a good side before Roman, so you could argue for their inclusion) and you still have the same issue, though it would likely be more obvious.

I don't think we're going to agree, which is fine. That's normal (despite what the internet promotes). Even so, I think a way of more fairly distributing money, to the lower leagues especially, is worth looking at. I mean if you took 10% from the turnover of every prem club and redistributed that down the divisions, the top clubs would likely barely notice (a little hyperbole maybe) whilst the good it could do would be immense.

Basically I see this as a microcosm of society. The rich stay rich because it's way easier to stay rich than it is to become rich. Not because earning money is hard, but because the easiest way to generate wealth is by investing in things that require wealth in the first place.

Offline Charlie Adams fried egg right

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Re: Is Football Really Broken?
« Reply #67 on: February 14, 2020, 03:32:48 PM »
Going back to the Wrap show. One thing I totally disagreed with Evans on was his semi serious view that had the economy not scuppered H&G we would be lauding H&G as great owners, (reading between the lines he was implying that FSG are being over praised) on the basis that Hicks' son predicted the rise in TV money. My view is that even without the threat of admin, we'd still have campaigned to get them out when it became clear they were using a leveraged buyout.

He also alluded to the fact that he gets stick for criticising the club. There's nothing wrong with a bit of criticism, if it's balanced and in context. Where he does get peoples' backs up is when he appears to go out of his way to piss on the club's chips at every opportunity.

Offline Max_powers

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Re: Is Football Really Broken?
« Reply #68 on: February 14, 2020, 04:35:41 PM »
The game is broken in the sense that many lower league clubs are struggling to stay afloat when PL clubs are spending 100's of millions sometimes every year on transfers alone.

Its not broken in the sense that non-global teams have no chance to compete. 5 years ago we were finishing in the similar point totals as Everton and West Ham. Since then teams like West Ham and Everton have significantly outspent us when it comes to net spend. Yet we are in first now and they can't compete.
Of course they can.

There is some advantage to being a global club, like I am sure those other clubs probably could not attract Klopp. However, many of the things we have done, they could have as well if they were better run. You could easily envisage a player like Mane, Bobby, Salah, Robertson, Gini etc being bought by those clubs. They have been splashing the cash around on players like Richarlison,Mina , Bolasie, Tosun, Haller, Felipe Anderson.

We didn't start signing superstar players until we first earned CL qualification. That is the first step.

Personally think PL is more financially even that anytime before.

Offline Fortneef

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Re: Is Football Really Broken?
« Reply #69 on: February 14, 2020, 05:40:49 PM »
qreat examples - west ham have mortgaged their soul, and everton are ... everton.


I blame The Bosman ruling, for fundamentally shifting money from transfers to wages. 
« Last Edit: February 14, 2020, 05:43:21 PM by Fortneef »

Offline Something Worse

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Re: Is Football Really Broken?
« Reply #70 on: February 14, 2020, 05:46:30 PM »
Again I say the timing is weird because we're about to have 5 different champions in a decade, including a one off miracle run that was far more impressive than Blackburn in the 90s.

We've shown that the league can be won with superior scouting and coaching, ahead of spending money exclusively.

If anything it's the domestic cups that are suffering but if there were way less games in a season (including international friendlies and tournaments) that would be less of an issue.

I also think seeing the likes of Hassenhutl, Potter, Ancelotti, even Farke at small clubs is a great omen for the future. It wasn't that long ago that it would have been Allardyce, Moyes and Pearson stinking the place out.

Offline Macphisto80

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Re: Is Football Really Broken?
« Reply #71 on: February 14, 2020, 06:35:52 PM »
The biggest indicator that football has that it's broken is when you get dickheads like Jesse Lingard thinking they are world beaters and having their own clothing line. Shite footballers thinking they can brand themselves. It's like Adidas slapping three stripes up the side of shit and selling it.

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Re: Is Football Really Broken?
« Reply #72 on: February 14, 2020, 06:42:54 PM »
The biggest indicator that football has that it's broken is when you get dickheads like Jesse Lingard thinking they are world beaters and having their own clothing line. Shite footballers thinking they can brand themselves. It's like Adidas slapping three stripes up the side of shit and selling it.

There have always been dickheads though. Lingard is more of a commentary on society than football.
Or he could read Babu's Twitter threads, which is where I get my opinions from

Offline blacksun

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Re: Is Football Really Broken?
« Reply #73 on: February 14, 2020, 07:34:51 PM »
I think there are three separate discussions here, the state of the game at the top end of English football, the lack of money funneling down the divisions in England and the financial disparity in the other top leagues in Europe.

The first one, the state of the top end of the PL, I don't think has changed much in the last 20/25 years, the teams have but usually its been two teams better than the rest fighting for the title, as has been mentioned it was Utd/Arsenal, Chelsea/Utd, City/Chelsea with a few anomalies thrown in with Blackburn/Newcastle/Leicester and us. The top teams have always had more money and been able to attract better players the only thing that's changed is the numbers have got bigger. Whilst I don't like what Chelsea and City have done with their finances I actually think it started when Utd floated as a PLC, they became a big business and not just a football club and changed the dynamic for everyone.

For me the second issue is the biggest problem. As others have said the PL/FA needs to find a way to get some of the money from the PL down to the lower leagues because the disparity between them is nuts and too many old clubs are either on the edge of going bust or actually going bust and that's just bad for the game as a whole.

Finally the third problem, the disparity in revenue (primarily from TV) for the likes of Barca/Madrid/Bayern compared to the rest of their division means that those teams will always have an unfair advantage over the rest, at least in this the PL is slightly fairer meaning teams like us and Leicester etc can make enough money to make smart signings to bridge the gap whereas the like of Valencia or Sevilla have next to no chance of doing that with the huge gap in TV revenue. This will require UEFA/FIFA to get involved to make fairer and we all know how likely that is.

These are all important topics that do need to be addressed and its good that journalists are discussing these and other issues although I do agree with others that there does feel like a bit of sour grapes with this particular journalist because we are back on top as all these issue have been there for twenty plus years so why is this the season he feels its time to highlight it.

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Re: Is Football Really Broken?
« Reply #74 on: February 15, 2020, 02:51:45 AM »
Hopefully Miguel Delaney is a bit cheerier tonight, now that UEFA is actually punishing the club that's done more to break football than any other over the past decade.
Football always seems the most important of the least important things.