Author Topic: The Klopp Template  (Read 770694 times)

Online Chris~

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #6400 on: October 2, 2022, 10:23:30 pm »
A very well reasoned thread from Mo Chatra:

https://twitter.com/MoChatra/status/1576652385388142594

Not a great read. But maybe it's obvious anyway.
We need different players is a pretty easy argument when you have a side playing as bad as us across the pitch. It doesn't actually explain why we went from a 90+ point, champions League finalists to barley looking Europa League level in the space of 3/4 months.

Also, we need to turnover players quicker is way easier said than accomplished in practice whilst remaining competitive. What do you do with the overplayed players (I'm guessing this is Mo, Van Dijk, Trent, Robertson) sell them? When and where are we doing this

Offline Knight

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #6401 on: October 2, 2022, 10:26:08 pm »
‘You don’t believe me? Well look what this wrestling reporter has said on Twitter!’

Huh? I have no skin in this game. You can go check through my posts, which I’m sure you’ll love, and you’ll find very little from me on the net spend arguments.

Offline JackWard33

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #6402 on: October 2, 2022, 11:18:47 pm »
We need different players is a pretty easy argument when you have a side playing as bad as us across the pitch. It doesn't actually explain why we went from a 90+ point, champions League finalists to barley looking Europa League level in the space of 3/4 months.

Also, we need to turnover players quicker is way easier said than accomplished in practice whilst remaining competitive. What do you do with the overplayed players (I'm guessing this is Mo, Van Dijk, Trent, Robertson) sell them? When and where are we doing this

Like a great philosopher probably once said ‘well I wouldn’t start from here’
Atrophy has happened over time sadly and sometimes things go wrong slowly then all at once

I agree with pretty much everything in that twitter thread, though none of it is super controversial / revelatory
Don’t think we’re as bad as we’re showing (I hope) but we’ve also got some decent sized problems in the squad that need a change in approach to address as it’s currently on a clear downward slide

Offline Al 666

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #6403 on: October 2, 2022, 11:36:06 pm »
Hope lots read this because I’d be interested to see the counter arguments, because plenty are pretty derisory about the ‘our net spend is very low’ arguments.

The best bit for me is the insinuation that once we missed out on Tchouameni that Klopp wanted to wait for the right player.

That is despite Klopp publicly stating that he wanted a midfield player but that he didn't set the budget. Followed by him stating we needed to take more risks in the market.

The other bit is that Klopp is too loyal. Well tell that to the likes of Lovren, Lallana and Bobby who were replaced instantly when we had the funds to buy better players.
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Offline kcbworth

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #6404 on: October 3, 2022, 12:34:57 am »
Hope lots read this because I’d be interested to see the counter arguments, because plenty are pretty derisory about the ‘our net spend is very low’ arguments.

Spending money doesnt guarantee improvement though, especially to a team at the level we've been - we could easily be in the exact same situation trying to adjust to a whole new set of players? I suppose the only advantage there is people might have some optimism that they'll eventually come good, whereas for whatever reason there is little optimism atm
« Last Edit: October 3, 2022, 01:04:25 am by kcbworth »

Offline Dave McCoy

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #6405 on: October 3, 2022, 01:56:40 am »
Hope lots read this because I’d be interested to see the counter arguments, because plenty are pretty derisory about the ‘our net spend is very low’ arguments.

Because net spend is only one financial aspect of the club's whole financial situation. Transfer fees are not an absolute indication of player quality. What matters most is to get CL level quality players across the whole squad for whatever the fee is and then pay them to stick around so you can build a coherent team and win things. If you are able to build a CORE of players that win trophies for cheaper than the market would indicate does that mean you weren't spending enough? Seemingly for most of our fans that answer is yes which is ridiculous.

Once you build that CORE and only need to do 2-4 transfers a year but have a ton of other assets that you can sell that aren't part of the CORE, should you just not sell them so it looks like you're spending more? Should you just spend more on those 2-4 transfers even though it's not necessary to do so? Again for a lot of our fans the answer is seemingly yes.

Mo just hand waves all this away by saying Klopp is loyal to a fault and our wage bill isn't anything out of line with our competitors which is disingenuous. If he agrees that FSG and LFC's intent is to clearly win things then how does that square with them intentionally sabotaging it by refusing to spend?

The bottom line for me is FSG hired a host of people to run LFC. They have the entirety of the teams revenue to use, nothing is going back to Boston, and they usually make great decisions in doing this. Maybe it will never make us on par with ManC but that goes for the entirety of the rest of the PL. Now maybe finally for once they made some bad player recruitment decisions. Does that mean they were intentionally trying to do that? No. Does that mean FSG was intentionally trying to make LFC worth less by falling out of a CL spot? No. Nobody is perfect, bad things can and do happen. European football isn't fair, it never has been.

The other thing that keeps getting glossed over is turning over a trophy winning team is hard. In my lifetime I can only recall SAF and now Pep doing it successfully with the same team. Maybe it's not something in Klopp's wheelhouse? As far as I can tell he's never really had to do it either. Not that this is solely on him but if this is a collaborative approach then Klopp saying he wants to keep the band together as long as possible, which clearly seems to be happening, is going to make that turnover into the next LFC take longer.

So yes, for all those reasons and more just pointing to "net spend" is bullshit and anybody who focuses solely on that should be laughed out of the thread.
« Last Edit: October 3, 2022, 01:58:38 am by Dave McCoy »

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #6406 on: October 3, 2022, 05:11:07 am »
A very well reasoned thread from Mo Chatra:

https://twitter.com/MoChatra/status/1576652385388142594

Not a great read. But maybe it's obvious anyway.

I agree with what chatra said. I don't know who is at fault for the under investment - whether it is the owners or the manager or his team who are choosing not to sign pricey younger replacements who have matured enough to bring performances to a higher level, but whoever is responsible needs to wake up and start spending in January and in the summer windows. It may already be too late but to do nothing would make falling out of the top 4 much more likely.

Offline ThePoolMan

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #6407 on: October 3, 2022, 05:19:18 am »
Because net spend is only one financial aspect of the club's whole financial situation. Transfer fees are not an absolute indication of player quality. What matters most is to get CL level quality players across the whole squad for whatever the fee is and then pay them to stick around so you can build a coherent team and win things. If you are able to build a CORE of players that win trophies for cheaper than the market would indicate does that mean you weren't spending enough? Seemingly for most of our fans that answer is yes which is ridiculous.

Once you build that CORE and only need to do 2-4 transfers a year but have a ton of other assets that you can sell that aren't part of the CORE, should you just not sell them so it looks like you're spending more? Should you just spend more on those 2-4 transfers even though it's not necessary to do so? Again for a lot of our fans the answer is seemingly yes.

Mo just hand waves all this away by saying Klopp is loyal to a fault and our wage bill isn't anything out of line with our competitors which is disingenuous. If he agrees that FSG and LFC's intent is to clearly win things then how does that square with them intentionally sabotaging it by refusing to spend?

The bottom line for me is FSG hired a host of people to run LFC. They have the entirety of the teams revenue to use, nothing is going back to Boston, and they usually make great decisions in doing this. Maybe it will never make us on par with ManC but that goes for the entirety of the rest of the PL. Now maybe finally for once they made some bad player recruitment decisions. Does that mean they were intentionally trying to do that? No. Does that mean FSG was intentionally trying to make LFC worth less by falling out of a CL spot? No. Nobody is perfect, bad things can and do happen. European football isn't fair, it never has been.

The other thing that keeps getting glossed over is turning over a trophy winning team is hard. In my lifetime I can only recall SAF and now Pep doing it successfully with the same team. Maybe it's not something in Klopp's wheelhouse? As far as I can tell he's never really had to do it either. Not that this is solely on him but if this is a collaborative approach then Klopp saying he wants to keep the band together as long as possible, which clearly seems to be happening, is going to make that turnover into the next LFC take longer.

So yes, for all those reasons and more just pointing to "net spend" is bullshit and anybody who focuses solely on that should be laughed out of the thread.


We can maybe take issue with Chatra's speculations but what he is saying as his basic premise seems incontrovertible. Whatever the reason, liverpool fc has substantially underinvested and now they have a prematurely aged core to their team who is not able to sustain the performance levels that is required of them.  Of course the solution isn't just to splash the cash but part of the solution must involve spending the requisite moneys to sign the younger more dynamic players we need to bring the performance level back up to scratch.

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #6408 on: October 3, 2022, 05:21:07 am »
Because net spend is only one financial aspect of the club's whole financial situation. Transfer fees are not an absolute indication of player quality. What matters most is to get CL level quality players across the whole squad for whatever the fee is and then pay them to stick around so you can build a coherent team and win things. If you are able to build a CORE of players that win trophies for cheaper than the market would indicate does that mean you weren't spending enough? Seemingly for most of our fans that answer is yes which is ridiculous.

Once you build that CORE and only need to do 2-4 transfers a year but have a ton of other assets that you can sell that aren't part of the CORE, should you just not sell them so it looks like you're spending more? Should you just spend more on those 2-4 transfers even though it's not necessary to do so? Again for a lot of our fans the answer is seemingly yes.

Mo just hand waves all this away by saying Klopp is loyal to a fault and our wage bill isn't anything out of line with our competitors which is disingenuous. If he agrees that FSG and LFC's intent is to clearly win things then how does that square with them intentionally sabotaging it by refusing to spend?

The bottom line for me is FSG hired a host of people to run LFC. They have the entirety of the teams revenue to use, nothing is going back to Boston, and they usually make great decisions in doing this. Maybe it will never make us on par with ManC but that goes for the entirety of the rest of the PL. Now maybe finally for once they made some bad player recruitment decisions. Does that mean they were intentionally trying to do that? No. Does that mean FSG was intentionally trying to make LFC worth less by falling out of a CL spot? No. Nobody is perfect, bad things can and do happen. European football isn't fair, it never has been.

The other thing that keeps getting glossed over is turning over a trophy winning team is hard. In my lifetime I can only recall SAF and now Pep doing it successfully with the same team. Maybe it's not something in Klopp's wheelhouse? As far as I can tell he's never really had to do it either. Not that this is solely on him but if this is a collaborative approach then Klopp saying he wants to keep the band together as long as possible, which clearly seems to be happening, is going to make that turnover into the next LFC take longer.

So yes, for all those reasons and more just pointing to "net spend" is bullshit and anybody who focuses solely on that should be laughed out of the thread.

Agree and just to add that player transfers are historically difficult to get right and they generally only represent value around 50% of the time.
Yes we have a £4bn business but we let the Goofy German guy make all the decisions.

Constantly wondering how some people get away with things like this.

Offline ThePoolMan

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #6409 on: October 3, 2022, 05:27:10 am »
Agree and just to add that player transfers are historically difficult to get right and they generally only represent value around 50% of the time.

Winning the league is also historically difficult to do but that doesn't stop 5 or 6 of the clubs in the premiership to do their best to win  it every season. The point is that if signing the right player is difficult, managing to cultivate and grow youth players into world class levels to be ready at exactly the right time is even harder. There is no alternative to signing better and younger players to replace those players who are getting too long jn the tooth to perform to the same standard.

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #6410 on: October 3, 2022, 06:28:21 am »
There are still rumours that we want Keita to sign a new contract. Wonder if that comes into the debate about loyalty and all that?

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #6411 on: October 3, 2022, 07:49:49 am »
Like a great philosopher probably once said ‘well I wouldn’t start from here’
Atrophy has happened over time sadly and sometimes things go wrong slowly then all at once

I agree with pretty much everything in that twitter thread, though none of it is super controversial / revelatory
Don’t think we’re as bad as we’re showing (I hope) but we’ve also got some decent sized problems in the squad that need a change in approach to address as it’s currently on a clear downward slide
It's a lot of this is wrong but no actual solutions or real evidence that for example Klopp can't be trusted to have players be around him long term without breaking them.

The players who have been overplayed are the ones who we wanted to build around, are the ones who've been bad. It's easy to say replace them and buy new players the near impossible skill is timing it and getting it right and staying competitive. When should we have sold Van Dijk, Salah, Trent and Robertson? If players only have a limited shelf life under Klopp?


« Last Edit: October 3, 2022, 07:56:33 am by Chris~ »

Offline killer-heels

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #6412 on: October 3, 2022, 07:57:50 am »
But its a lot of this is wrong but no actual solutions or real evidence.

The players who have been overplayed are the ones who we wanted to build around, are the ones who've been bad. It's easy to say replace them and buy new players the near impossible skill is timing it and getting it right and staying competitive. When should we have sold Van Dijk, Salah, Trent and Robertson? If players only have a limited shelf life under Klopp?




I agree to an extent. But then we have other key players like Fabinho, Thiago and Matip.

Like it or not, we look old. I love Konate and Jota but we cant deny that Matip is still our go to centreback following Gomez’ horror show and Jota due to injury means Bobby has played a lot more. Both Firmino and Matip are still important first team players.

We have them fit now but we need to inject a whole lot of youth into this side. Konate has to be first choice when he is back and we need Jota in now. We cant be relying on a side that consists of Matip, Van Dijk, Thiago, Henderson, Salah, Bobby, with Milner also playing a lot. Its far too old.

Offline JackWard33

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #6413 on: October 3, 2022, 08:41:24 am »
It's a lot of this is wrong but no actual solutions or real evidence that for example Klopp can't be trusted to have players be around him long term without breaking them.

The players who have been overplayed are the ones who we wanted to build around, are the ones who've been bad. It's easy to say replace them and buy new players the near impossible skill is timing it and getting it right and staying competitive. When should we have sold Van Dijk, Salah, Trent and Robertson? If players only have a limited shelf life under Klopp?




You can take the ‘Klopp breaks players’ thing out for sure - it’s just an ageing process not a Klopp specific thing from my point of view
Rebuilding / renewing teams is hard and knowing when to pull the plug on established stars is hard
Clearly there’s more than one thing going on at the moment (Trents dip clearly doesn’t fall into the ageing squad problem)

It takes investment though that’s not really debatable … teams have cycles, we spent to build this one, then we spent to keep it together now it needs spending to renew it

Offline lfcred1976

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #6414 on: October 3, 2022, 08:50:18 am »
There are still rumours that we want Keita to sign a new contract. Wonder if that comes into the debate about loyalty and all that?

If Naby even gets offered a new contract, then some serious discussions need to be had. Has done absolutely bugger all to justify a new contract here. And no doubt a new contract would see a nice wage increase for him too.

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #6415 on: October 3, 2022, 08:51:45 am »
There are still rumours that we want Keita to sign a new contract. Wonder if that comes into the debate about loyalty and all that?

For sure, I think that could be a test of loyalty, business sense and budget all coming together. I think Klopp is very loyal, but the question is have that ever been the genuine root of problems for this Liverpool? So far just speculation. But probably more people on here are onboard that the club's lack of transfer budget or risk aversion is a greater problem than Klopp's loyalty.

The latter have probably done more positive things for the team, created a belief and confidence in the team. Even for the players that are often on the bench feels that Klopp and the club believes in them. That's my take, that his loyalty has far more positive benefits.

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #6416 on: October 3, 2022, 08:54:10 am »
You can take the ‘Klopp breaks players’ thing out for sure - it’s just an ageing process not a Klopp specific thing from my point of view
Rebuilding / renewing teams is hard and knowing when to pull the plug on established stars is hard
Clearly there’s more than one thing going on at the moment (Trents dip clearly doesn’t fall into the ageing squad problem)

It takes investment though that’s not really debatable … teams have cycles, we spent to build this one, then we spent to keep it together now it needs spending to renew it
I'd agree with the last bit. We look like we're at the end of our cycle, which is fine, we were really good and now we may take some years a level down to rebuild. That's pretty normal for clubs who aren't the dominate side in their league financially. The issue will be if for example Trent and the players we backed to help with that are permanently in this form or its temporary. There's so little information available to us as fans it's something well enjoy speculating about I guess.

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #6417 on: October 3, 2022, 09:15:50 am »
I saw an image of our 2018 team vs our recent team....

Only gini/mane have changed to Thiago/Diaz. Was a bit disingenuous having bobby remain there as Jota/Nunez will most likely take his place but still, the point was quite simple and well made

We haven't changed the first 11 enough, complacency, stagnation maybe has crept in a bit.

We have a brilliant coaching team that have made the most out of a great bunch of players, made all of them better and playing to a system - tweaked time and again to keep competing. Won everything too.
But there's only so much you can stretch that when everyone is gunning for your position....

We are not as bad as we seem now - but I am a bit surprised we seem so out of sorts still. I'd have thought there'd be more green shoots of recovery.
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Offline royhendo

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #6418 on: October 3, 2022, 10:07:28 am »
How are we all coping?

I’m feeling quite mournful about it all I have to confess.
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Offline LiamG

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #6419 on: October 3, 2022, 10:07:33 am »
Is this the same system we used last year? Where are the stories about that?

There was, Remember we were  conceding first in quite a few games last season too, only this season it's got worse

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #6420 on: October 3, 2022, 10:11:40 am »
Huh? I have no skin in this game. You can go check through my posts, which I’m sure you’ll love, and you’ll find very little from me on the net spend arguments.

I know, twas just a joke. Logging onto twitter to read a studious study into our spending habits by the wrestling reporter for the Mirror.

Didn't really say much new to be honest. Our spend isn't low because the owners are taking money out of the club, its low because money is being spent elsewhere. Rightly or wrongly. I suspect we're at a point now where we need to decide as a fanbase what we really need from owners moving forward. And no more of this 'I'm happy with FSG as long as they start doing a lot differently to what they've done so far'. We've got state ownership at two clubs, it seems there's more than a hint that there may be at Chelsea too, it's likely to increase, we've got it at PSG. I suspect the plan, as has been for a while, is to try and move us to the front of the queue in terms of infrastructure, stadium, training ground, sponsorship etc. Squeeze everything out of everything, essentially do what United did in the 90s. Problem being that like I say, there's now state owned cheats in all competitions who are given carte blanche to pretty much make up their own sponsorships. We've worked amazingly hard to overtake a club like United, and then Abu Dhabi just go 'Oh by the way we've got a new sponsorship of £50 million a season from this brand new tiddlywinks company who are based in Abu Dhabi, its all above board. Oh and we've got a new 'bottom of the sock' sponsor for £15 million a season, its a brand new fidget spinner supplier based in Abu Dhabi'.

We can go round in never ending circles about 'they haven't invested in the midfield'. To me, it seems pretty clear the fault lies in more than one area with that. If we had signed Tchouameni in the summer, along with everyone else we signed, people would have been proclaiming it as our best window for years. If we'd then did what we did to City in the Charity Shield, with Tchouamenu, people would have been fancying another crack at the quadruple. But he isn't suddenly making up for the massive drop from a LOT of players. We've maybe got three players playing anywhere near their best right now, and one of them was someone many were up for getting rid of in the summer because he's '5th choice attacker'. No-one was suggesting to replace Trent, or Robbo, or sign a new CB, or replace Mo. The midfield is important but it doesn't even come close to explaining what is happening this season.
If he's being asked to head the ball too frequently - which isn't exactly his specialty - it could affect his ear and cause an infection. Especially if the ball hits him on the ear directly.

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #6421 on: October 3, 2022, 10:15:29 am »
I saw an image of our 2018 team vs our recent team....

Only gini/mane have changed to Thiago/Diaz. Was a bit disingenuous having bobby remain there as Jota/Nunez will most likely take his place but still, the point was quite simple and well made

We haven't changed the first 11 enough, complacency, stagnation maybe has crept in a bit.

We have a brilliant coaching team that have made the most out of a great bunch of players, made all of them better and playing to a system - tweaked time and again to keep competing. Won everything too.
But there's only so much you can stretch that when everyone is gunning for your position....

We are not as bad as we seem now - but I am a bit surprised we seem so out of sorts still. I'd have thought there'd be more green shoots of recovery.
Season's ambitions have taken a battering in the league, but there are still all the cups to play for

Alisson
Trent
VVD
Matip
Robbo
Fab
Hendo
Gini
Sadio
Bobby
Mo

Right?

Considering Ibou started the CL Final, I think there's a fair argument that he's well on course to be first choice if not already. Bobby the same, Diogo generally was first choice last season and only hasn't been this season due to injury. Thiago, one of the best CMs in the world, has replaced Gini.

So actually more like:

Alisson
Trent
VVD
Konate
Robbo
Fab
Hendo
Thiago
Diaz
Diogo
Mo

Practically, who are you replacing in there apart from the captain....?
If he's being asked to head the ball too frequently - which isn't exactly his specialty - it could affect his ear and cause an infection. Especially if the ball hits him on the ear directly.

Offline MaradonaPisstest

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #6422 on: October 3, 2022, 10:22:49 am »
Agree and just to add that player transfers are historically difficult to get right and they generally only represent value around 50% of the time.

Does this not suggest you should be doing more of them, not less?

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #6423 on: October 3, 2022, 11:31:03 am »
Considering Ibou started the CL Final, I think there's a fair argument that he's well on course to be first choice if not already. Bobby the same, Diogo generally was first choice last season and only hasn't been this season due to injury. Thiago, one of the best CMs in the world, has replaced Gini.

So actually more like:

Alisson
Trent
VVD
Konate
Robbo
Fab
Hendo
Thiago
Diaz
Diogo
Mo

Practically, who are you replacing in there apart from the captain....?

It's a very fair point on the injuries - for instance Thiago was (apparently) bought to replace Gini but has started like 40% of games since arrival which has meant he's not really "refreshed" the side and we've had to turn to the likes of Milner too frequently (and probably overplay Henderson too). Konate was somewhat eased in last season it felt like and has obviously been injured this season - Matip will still play a lot of games though, and I'm not sure it definitely was a case of Konate being first choice last season (although you'd hope that's the aim this season). Jota is a funny one - displaced Firmino but then was himself displaced by Mane and has continually picked up little injuries, but 100% starts in our best team.

I think on the face of it, it might be hard to argue we should have outright "replaced" some of the list above, but I think there's certainly an argument that one or two names there have needed more competition and maybe some more uncomfortable conversations about which of those players might be past their peak and on a downward trajectory, either due to age, too much intense football, or a combination of both. It's hard to look at the stark drop-off in physicality this season across the entire side (which is borne out in the numbers) and say replacing Henderson and bringing Jota back into the side will totally fix it. For all the obvious footballing quality we possess, we're an aging side with lots of (very intense) minutes in the legs and very little athleticism - I think we might have to be looking a little bit deeper than just the obvious targets.

Offline killer-heels

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #6424 on: October 3, 2022, 11:32:33 am »
It's a very fair point on the injuries - for instance Thiago was (apparently) bought to replace Gini but has started like 40% of games since arrival which has meant he's not really "refreshed" the side and we've had to turn to the likes of Milner too frequently (and probably overplay Henderson too). Konate was somewhat eased in last season it felt like and has obviously been injured this season - Matip will still play a lot of games though, and I'm not sure it definitely was a case of Konate being first choice last season (although you'd hope that's the aim this season). Jota is a funny one - displaced Firmino but then was himself displaced by Mane and has continually picked up little injuries, but 100% starts in our best team.

I think on the face of it, it might be hard to argue we should have outright "replaced" some of the list above, but I think there's certainly an argument that one or two names there have needed more competition and maybe some more uncomfortable conversations about which of those players might be past their peak and on a downward trajectory, either due to age, too much intense football, or a combination of both. It's hard to look at the stark drop-off in physicality this season across the entire side (which is borne out in the numbers) and say replacing Henderson and bringing Jota back into the side will totally fix it. For all the obvious footballing quality we possess, we're an aging side with lots of (very intense) minutes in the legs and very little athleticism - I think we might have to be looking a little bit deeper than just the obvious targets.

There is a big red underline in that line up under Fabinho and Henderson. We need to be thinking about another centrehalf as well.

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #6425 on: October 3, 2022, 11:33:19 am »
How are we all coping?

I’m feeling quite mournful about it all I have to confess.

Personally I haven't had a stress-free season since 2012/13, Rodgers' first season with us.

I'm going to treat this season the same-- zero expectations, no worrying about other teams' results, anything we get (Top 4, Cups) will be a bonus. I'm glad our "off" season didn't coincide with City being shit as well. That would've hurt a lot more.
"Jürgen Klopp is bringing Liverpool's 'fuck you' back. And I can't wait."

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #6426 on: October 3, 2022, 11:34:36 am »
How are we all coping?

I’m feeling quite mournful about it all I have to confess.

Its a bit shit now but dont you find it a bit exciting. We have an amazing manager and some great young players like Konate, Trent, Jota, Diaz etc. My favourite season was 18-19 when we were new and fresh and i am looking forward to Klopp building a new side.

We do need investment though and we need to be more humble in our approach and stop waiting seasons for the right player.

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #6427 on: October 3, 2022, 11:38:33 am »
Does feel like we're caught between two worlds at the moment, the usual Klopp tactics of hard running, high intensity football, and what we've tried to evolve the team into, which is more like a possession-based Guardiola-style team.
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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #6428 on: October 3, 2022, 11:46:58 am »
Also, we need to turnover players quicker is way easier said than accomplished in practice whilst remaining competitive. What do you do with the overplayed players (I'm guessing this is Mo, Van Dijk, Trent, Robertson) sell them? When and where are we doing this
Should have sold all four in the summer just in case they got shit. Just think of the money we could have got. Julian Ward is a bit wank at this isn't he?

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #6429 on: October 3, 2022, 11:50:49 am »
Should have sold all four in the summer just in case they got shit. Just think of the money we could have got. Julian Ward is a bit wank at this isn't he?

It is genuinely a bit mind boggling though :D

The amount of people who genuinely think they know better than Jurgen Klopp, and that we've let the 'squad stagnate' when this season its the likes of Trent, VVD, Robbo, Fab and Mo struggling more than anyone. I'm pretty sure I dont remember anyone suggesting any of them should be replaced (apart from the loons like that Lallana guy who has been at Robbo for years). I can just imagine the calmness amongst a certain type of poster if we'd flogged Van Dijk, Salah and Robbo this summer.....
If he's being asked to head the ball too frequently - which isn't exactly his specialty - it could affect his ear and cause an infection. Especially if the ball hits him on the ear directly.

Offline redk84

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #6430 on: October 3, 2022, 11:52:53 am »
Alisson
Trent
VVD
Matip
Robbo
Fab
Hendo
Gini
Sadio
Bobby
Mo

Right?

Considering Ibou started the CL Final, I think there's a fair argument that he's well on course to be first choice if not already. Bobby the same, Diogo generally was first choice last season and only hasn't been this season due to injury. Thiago, one of the best CMs in the world, has replaced Gini.

So actually more like:

Alisson
Trent
VVD
Konate
Robbo
Fab
Hendo
Thiago
Diaz
Diogo
Mo

Practically, who are you replacing in there apart from the captain....?

Absolutely nobody apart from Hendo (from starting 11 only not squad).

But as i said....stagnation is real and it affects every team. I'd have thought when we won the league that the majority could still be in the squad 4 years later, but not expected to be starting every game still...

Both statements can be true
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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #6431 on: October 3, 2022, 11:59:26 am »
Personally I haven't had a stress-free season since 2012/13, Rodgers' first season with us.

I'm going to treat this season the same-- zero expectations, no worrying about other teams' results, anything we get (Top 4, Cups) will be a bonus. I'm glad our "off" season didn't coincide with City being shit as well. That would've hurt a lot more.

I'm treating it like this too now
It would be nice in a season like this if we could bed in players to find out if they're worth keeping or moving on. Got a lot of fellas in midfield to do that with once they get fit. Need to form a definitive plan for who we still need to evolve the team with a system that works for who we have and are planning to bring in, just like we did before

I still think we get our act together at some point to comfortably be in top 4 so not worried about that yet. And get through CL group stages then who knows!
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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #6432 on: October 3, 2022, 12:02:48 pm »
Because net spend is only one financial aspect of the club's whole financial situation. Transfer fees are not an absolute indication of player quality. What matters most is to get CL level quality players across the whole squad for whatever the fee is and then pay them to stick around so you can build a coherent team and win things. If you are able to build a CORE of players that win trophies for cheaper than the market would indicate does that mean you weren't spending enough? Seemingly for most of our fans that answer is yes which is ridiculous.

Once you build that CORE and only need to do 2-4 transfers a year but have a ton of other assets that you can sell that aren't part of the CORE, should you just not sell them so it looks like you're spending more? Should you just spend more on those 2-4 transfers even though it's not necessary to do so? Again for a lot of our fans the answer is seemingly yes.

Mo just hand waves all this away by saying Klopp is loyal to a fault and our wage bill isn't anything out of line with our competitors which is disingenuous. If he agrees that FSG and LFC's intent is to clearly win things then how does that square with them intentionally sabotaging it by refusing to spend?

The bottom line for me is FSG hired a host of people to run LFC. They have the entirety of the teams revenue to use, nothing is going back to Boston, and they usually make great decisions in doing this. Maybe it will never make us on par with ManC but that goes for the entirety of the rest of the PL. Now maybe finally for once they made some bad player recruitment decisions. Does that mean they were intentionally trying to do that? No. Does that mean FSG was intentionally trying to make LFC worth less by falling out of a CL spot? No. Nobody is perfect, bad things can and do happen. European football isn't fair, it never has been.

The other thing that keeps getting glossed over is turning over a trophy winning team is hard. In my lifetime I can only recall SAF and now Pep doing it successfully with the same team. Maybe it's not something in Klopp's wheelhouse? As far as I can tell he's never really had to do it either. Not that this is solely on him but if this is a collaborative approach then Klopp saying he wants to keep the band together as long as possible, which clearly seems to be happening, is going to make that turnover into the next LFC take longer.

So yes, for all those reasons and more just pointing to "net spend" is bullshit and anybody who focuses solely on that should be laughed out of the thread.

Not sure where you're from, but I wrote the enclosed in January 2021 where we messed up the centre back solution.. 18 months later the club has messed up the midfield-situation.. The US sports model can not be transferred 100 % to Europe, and the lack of tweeking is astonishing..

"As Al is touching upon, they have to give in somewhat on the value creation they get in the end..

Some of our US members touched upon the US system; which I guess includes drafts, no relegation, wage caps etc - the ultimate commercial set-up where everyone gets a go.. The "fans" allows a couple of mediocre season to improve the drafts etc..

European football is the total opposite; FPP is a joke and you got to build on strength.. LFC were top of the pyramid - and you got to invest/build to maintain that position.. Instead of getting a center back on loan, we're spending a million pound on a 16 year old that have 0,001 % chance of making it.. (thats just the odds of any 16 year old talent..)"
It’s not even about individuality, it’s about the team. Our game was based on his controlling of the tempo. Squeeze the life out of the opposition and then strike. That is our game. Like a pack of pythons.

Offline royhendo

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #6433 on: October 3, 2022, 12:04:36 pm »
It's a good point about the reset button on expectations kicking in around the cups. You're making me feel better you lot. It's just that feeling of having had one of the greatest sides of all time, and only netting one league and one European Cup off the back of it. That's come home to roost for me - they deserved more luck. But hey that's life isn't it? Very grateful to still have Klopp around the place and to have owners who aren't knee jerk.
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Offline BER

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #6434 on: October 3, 2022, 12:08:51 pm »
Hope lots read this because I’d be interested to see the counter arguments, because plenty are pretty derisory about the ‘our net spend is very low’ arguments.

Wages, which he conveniently glosses over with one line.

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #6435 on: October 3, 2022, 12:16:01 pm »
Wages, which he conveniently glosses over with one line.

Our wage to turnover ratio is 65% which is the 4th lowest in the league.


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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #6436 on: October 3, 2022, 12:18:08 pm »
It's a good point about the reset button on expectations kicking in around the cups. You're making me feel better you lot. It's just that feeling of having had one of the greatest sides of all time, and only netting one league and one European Cup off the back of it. That's come home to roost for me - they deserved more luck. But hey that's life isn't it? Very grateful to still have Klopp around the place and to have owners who aren't knee jerk.

Better to have loved, won a good amount, and lost then have never to have loved at all. Or for that love to have been glorious for longer.

Something like that.

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #6437 on: October 3, 2022, 12:18:52 pm »
Our wage to turnover ratio is 65% which is the 4th lowest in the league.



4th lowest? League isnt run very well if thats the case.

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #6438 on: October 3, 2022, 12:20:38 pm »
Our wage to turnover ratio is 65% which is the 4th lowest in the league.

Bonuses and incentives
Yes we have a £4bn business but we let the Goofy German guy make all the decisions.

Constantly wondering how some people get away with things like this.

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #6439 on: October 3, 2022, 12:21:46 pm »
Absolutely nobody apart from Hendo (from starting 11 only not squad).

But as i said....stagnation is real and it affects every team. I'd have thought when we won the league that the majority could still be in the squad 4 years later, but not expected to be starting every game still...

Both statements can be true

They can, but your second statement isn't particularly.

Alisson, Trent, VVD, Robbo, Fab and Mo would surely still be expected to start the vast majority of games from when we won the title to now. Matip isn't expected to start every game. Neither is Bobby. Gini has gone, as has Sadio. When you say majority its a little disingenuous, because sure its still a 'majority' of the starting XI from 2018, but why wouldnt it be? None of them are too old, until this season none of them have particularly dropped off. Man City are no different, still have the core of their team from the same period at the club and starting games (Ederson, Stones, Laporte, Walker, Gundogan, De Bruyne, Silva, Mahrez). You dont want a team to stagnate, but you also dont rip a successful team apart just for the sake of it. Again, had we flogged any of Alisson, Trent, Virg, Robbo, Fab or Mo there would have been absolute carnage on here. Four of them were in the team of the season last time around, Robbo was still one of the best LBs in the league, Fab was still one of the best DMs in the league. I dont remember any successful team ripping a team apart unless there has been a drop off. And until this season, there hasn't been. I know its ifs....but we were so close to the greatest season a team has ever had last season. There isn't a single sensible person calling for a huge clear-out after that.

There is an awful lot going on at the moment, a bit of a perfect storm of shit. Away from the dreaded midfield we've done very well in 'replacing' our successful team. Kelleher, Konate, Tsimikas, Thiago, Jones, Elliott, Jota, Diaz and Nunez have all come in. Ramsay and Carvalho too. There are a lot of questions about whats happening this season, and none of them can be answered as easily as 'we haven't invested in the squad' because we patently have.

To me, more and more, it actually seems like we've misjudged this season a little with how we've prepared as well as some of the tactics we've started using. Not signing a proper first team CM sure hasn't helped, particularly with the injuries we've had there. But (not aimed at you) its a lot, lot easier to just go with the standard 'fucking FSG again' than actually address anything else.
If he's being asked to head the ball too frequently - which isn't exactly his specialty - it could affect his ear and cause an infection. Especially if the ball hits him on the ear directly.