Author Topic: Naby Keita Watch  (Read 999368 times)

Online JC the Messiah

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Re: Naby Keita Watch
« Reply #8600 on: September 14, 2020, 10:28:39 PM »
Bjonar - you seem to be echoing mine and many others' sentiments. Lots seem to disagree though.
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Online Dave McCoy

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Re: Naby Keita Watch
« Reply #8601 on: September 14, 2020, 10:51:15 PM »
I (probably unwisely) posted that in frustration/annoyance, mostly from the sheer volume of the pre-season moaning.

And probably misplaced in this thread, but I guess I see the clamour for Keita and now Thiago (the sum of it, lots of good individual posts about them that aren't that) as often in part underrating what's been achieved so far, by taking for granted and having "better ideas" than what's worked against heavy odds. But I did strawman his fans unnecessarily in that post.   

Just to expand on where I'm coming from before I leave it, my frustration is also in part because that in many posts that aren't complaining per se, I don't recognize the team I've been watching. For example:

- We're described as in need of creativity, especially against parked buses, there's some validity to that. But it happens rarely compared to how often it's not an issue. When I watch us, I rarely see a team knocking on the door but unable to break through, I see threats all over the pitch, with the midfielders very much part of that even if they aren't the ones posting goal/assist numbers. Would be interesting to read some updated "Klopp template" posts about how we achieve that, because it's true that on paper there is room for even more creativity, looking at it player for player.   

- Much being made of Klopp and Lijnders mentioning the need for "unpredictability" once or twice. Little mention of "intensity", "pressing", "shape", "chances that didn't become chances" which from memory are phrases used by Klopp in interviews on a regular basis, and surely more important parts of the "job/role description" for many of the players.

- Arguably the deciding factor for us in overtaking Man City the last two seasons (apart from the admittedly huge ones of bringing three world class signings in) has been finally getting the team balance right. They've become very vulnerable to counters, while we have got the balance right between defensive stabiilty and scoring enough to avoid unnecessary points losses. Keeping that advantage is not a given.

- "We mostly play parked buses, so should/can afford to set up more attacking", seems to me like another argument you see a lot, that looks good on paper but doesn't always reflect what's actually going on. We killed Bournemouth at home on the counter, against Palace what had Klopp raving was how we won the second balls. Same with Wilder in our win against Sheff Utd.

FWIW I think Keita is a great player, offensively and defensively, so any question marks about the latter (IMO) are only compared to those others we have that are absolute perfect fits in that regard. I think the Leeds game would have become a basketball game with or without him on the pitch.

So basically you're admitting you're just trolling due to your own personal viewpoints.  Cool, cool.

Offline KirkVanHouten

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Re: Naby Keita Watch
« Reply #8602 on: September 14, 2020, 11:05:23 PM »
I (probably unwisely) posted that in frustration/annoyance, mostly from the sheer volume of the pre-season moaning.

And probably misplaced in this thread, but I guess I see the clamour for Keita and now Thiago (the sum of it, lots of good individual posts about them that aren't that) as often in part underrating what's been achieved so far, by taking for granted and having "better ideas" than what's worked against heavy odds. But I did strawman his fans unnecessarily in that post.   

Just to expand on where I'm coming from before I leave it, my frustration is also in part because that in many posts that aren't complaining per se, I don't recognize the team I've been watching. For example:

- We're described as in need of creativity, especially against parked buses, there's some validity to that. But it happens rarely compared to how often it's not an issue. When I watch us, I rarely see a team knocking on the door but unable to break through, I see threats all over the pitch, with the midfielders very much part of that even if they aren't the ones posting goal/assist numbers. Would be interesting to read some updated "Klopp template" posts about how we achieve that, because it's true that on paper there is room for even more creativity, looking at it player for player.   

- Much being made of Klopp and Lijnders mentioning the need for "unpredictability" once or twice. Little mention of "intensity", "pressing", "shape", "chances that didn't become chances" which from memory are phrases used by Klopp in interviews on a regular basis, and surely more important parts of the "job/role description" for many of the players.

- Arguably the deciding factor for us in overtaking Man City the last two seasons (apart from the admittedly huge ones of bringing three world class signings in) has been finally getting the team balance right. They've become very vulnerable to counters, while we have got the balance right between defensive stabiilty and scoring enough to avoid unnecessary points losses. Keeping that advantage is not a given.

- "We mostly play parked buses, so should/can afford to set up more attacking", seems to me like another argument you see a lot, that looks good on paper but doesn't always reflect what's actually going on. We killed Bournemouth at home on the counter, against Palace what had Klopp raving was how we won the second balls. Same with Wilder in our win against Sheff Utd.

FWIW I think Keita is a great player, offensively and defensively, so any question marks about the latter (IMO) are only compared to those others we have that are absolute perfect fits in that regard. I think the Leeds game would have become a basketball game with or without him on the pitch.

I think most sane people realise how incredible Gini, Henderson and Fabinho have been, I have never been more confident in a midfield trio when I see them on the team sheet. But equally, injuries aside they have been pretty undisturbed in their positions for the last 2 seasons, as great as they are we don't want to become too predictable. That's reason people want Naby to flourish, he is unlike our other midfielders not because he can do step overs (I'm not even sure he does that many), it's because he's the best at carrying the ball upfield quickly which pulls players towards him.
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Offline Redcap

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Re: Naby Keita Watch
« Reply #8603 on: September 15, 2020, 04:44:19 AM »
I think it'd be unwise to think that what's worked for us yesterday will work for us today, and tomorrow, and every other match day till kingdom come.

Evolution and adaptations help us maintain our edge.

There will be some growing pains as we make tweaks to our system - that's inevitable. But it's by no means guaranteed that we wouldn't suffer if we kept playing in the exact same way. Even if our opponents don't figure us out, our players will get gradually get bored and complacent, and there'll be costs as well.

I hate it when people hide behind "in Klopp we trust" for every argument, but I think you have to trust the gaffer and the management team to get the balance right in how we approach games.

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Re: Naby Keita Watch
« Reply #8604 on: September 15, 2020, 07:09:56 AM »
I think it'd be unwise to think that what's worked for us yesterday will work for us today, and tomorrow, and every other match day till kingdom come.

Evolution and adaptations help us maintain our edge.

There will be some growing pains as we make tweaks to our system - that's inevitable. But it's by no means guaranteed that we wouldn't suffer if we kept playing in the exact same way. Even if our opponents don't figure us out, our players will get gradually get bored and complacent, and there'll be costs as well.

I hate it when people hide behind "in Klopp we trust" for every argument, but I think you have to trust the gaffer and the management team to get the balance right in how we approach games.

Yep. spot on.

At the very least we have to assume that anything some joe on a forum is aware of, will also have been noticed by Klopp and co, and that they will have a view on it, and a plan to deal with it if it is actually significant and needs dealing with.

That's where some of these claims and conversations go awry, when some posters seem to act as if they alone have noticed some crucial issue and that out glorious, intelligent, highly experienced manager and his team of coaches and analysts have somehow missed it.

That thing you are foregrounding and making a fuss about: maybe, just maybe the boss has also noticed and is either dealing with it or does not see it as significant in the way you do. [I mean 'you' in general here, not aimed at anyone in particular]
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Offline Charlie Adams fried egg

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Re: Naby Keita Watch
« Reply #8605 on: September 15, 2020, 08:32:06 AM »
Yep. spot on.

At the very least we have to assume that anything some joe on a forum is aware of, will also have been noticed by Klopp and co, and that they will have a view on it, and a plan to deal with it if it is actually significant and needs dealing with.

That's where some of these claims and conversations go awry, when some posters seem to act as if they alone have noticed some crucial issue and that out glorious, intelligent, highly experienced manager and his team of coaches and analysts have somehow missed it.

That thing you are foregrounding and making a fuss about: maybe, just maybe the boss has also noticed and is either dealing with it or does not see it as significant in the way you do. [I mean 'you' in general here, not aimed at anyone in particular]
I think that’s true. Someone made a good point in another thread about similar issues. It’s the absolute conviction that what they say is right when they have at best 10% of the information that those in the club have.
There’s a massive difference between a poster saying something like; I wonder what the boss sees Keita’s best position as, versus (for example) we’re too open when Keita plays, Klopp should drop him and sell in the summer.

I think that type of opinion adds absolutely nothing.

Offline ColinDelcoReds

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Re: Naby Keita Watch
« Reply #8606 on: September 15, 2020, 05:01:54 PM »
We clearly had an issue as to whose job it was to close Phillips - Hendo seemed to be the one doing it, but because he was playing deepest, as was Phillips at the other end, he had far too much ground to cover and rarely got there. When he did pushed on to Phillips it left a huge gap in the centre of the pitch, which does our back 4 no favours. Tactically odd to have your #6 tasked with closing down the opposition #6, so definitely a systematic error in there somewhere. I don't think that rules out individual error as well.

...

This is spot on for what went wrong in the first half. TThen we seemed to have solved the Phillips problem after halftime.

The other problem all game long was their backs making line-breaking runs past our midfield. Besides Naby and Hendo on the second goal, all our midfielders handled that a bit casually on at least one or two occasions. Jones and Gini on the equalizer another example. Not sure how many teams will employ such an aggressive strategy, and I'm sure it will be fixed moving forward.

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Re: Naby Keita Watch
« Reply #8607 on: September 15, 2020, 08:56:22 PM »
This is spot on for what went wrong in the first half. TThen we seemed to have solved the Phillips problem after halftime.

The other problem all game long was their backs making line-breaking runs past our midfield. Besides Naby and Hendo on the second goal, all our midfielders handled that a bit casually on at least one or two occasions. Jones and Gini on the equalizer another example. Not sure how many teams will employ such an aggressive strategy, and I'm sure it will be fixed moving forward.

Agree with most of that. The only thing I'd say about their third is that when Gini/Jones let the man run (I think it was Gini's man, but it was a good blindside run that would have needed a more experienced/more defensively-minded player than Jones to pick up), they had VVD behind them marking nobody in particular, which, in our system, is quite normal. VVD tried to step up and intercept the pass, the problem was that our defensive line had long gone, and he got no where near the interception. I wouldn't blame Gini or Jones for that one at all. It was either VVD or whoever lost the defensive line, depending on what the boss decides. We don't defend particularly well on the rare occasions we're forced into a low-block - we're very reliant on our super-high line to determine our defensive shape. Well done to Leeds for putting us on the back foot and messing that up - few other teams will manage it.

Offline ColinDelcoReds

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Re: Naby Keita Watch
« Reply #8608 on: September 16, 2020, 09:03:14 PM »
Agree with most of that. The only thing I'd say about their third is that when Gini/Jones let the man run (I think it was Gini's man, but it was a good blindside run that would have needed a more experienced/more defensively-minded player than Jones to pick up), they had VVD behind them marking nobody in particular, which, in our system, is quite normal. VVD tried to step up and intercept the pass, the problem was that our defensive line had long gone, and he got no where near the interception. I wouldn't blame Gini or Jones for that one at all. It was either VVD or whoever lost the defensive line, depending on what the boss decides. We don't defend particularly well on the rare occasions we're forced into a low-block - we're very reliant on our super-high line to determine our defensive shape. Well done to Leeds for putting us on the back foot and messing that up - few other teams will manage it.

(Ah yes, I shouldn't have said "their equalizer" as there were no less than THREE equalizers. What a game!)

Anyway, well said by you, and your point about our back line is something I hadn't fully considered.

Offline him_15

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Re: Naby Keita Watch
« Reply #8609 on: September 17, 2020, 08:35:33 AM »
I honestly hope Keita to step up and make a huge impact this season, as he has been with us for almost two years and that's enough time to settle down.
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Re: Naby Keita Watch
« Reply #8610 on: September 17, 2020, 11:42:04 AM »
Are he and Thiago going to feature together in the midfield on Sunday?

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Re: Naby Keita Watch
« Reply #8611 on: September 17, 2020, 06:16:24 PM »
Are he and Thiago going to feature together in the midfield on Sunday?
At most a 3-min cameo of Thiago, I reckon.
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Re: Naby Keita Watch
« Reply #8612 on: September 17, 2020, 06:17:52 PM »
Are he and Thiago going to feature together in the midfield on Sunday?

Nah, Thiago won't be in the squad I'd have thought. By time he actually signs, and whatever protocols to do with Covid are complete, I doubt he'll have even trained.

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Re: Naby Keita Watch
« Reply #8613 on: September 17, 2020, 07:18:08 PM »
Nah, Thiago won't be in the squad I'd have thought. By time he actually signs, and whatever protocols to do with Covid are complete, I doubt he'll have even trained.

And Klopp doesn't often do the whole "chuck 'em straight in" thing, either...
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Offline 6BigCups

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Re: Naby Keita Watch
« Reply #8614 on: September 18, 2020, 04:24:51 PM »
And Klopp doesn't often do the whole "chuck 'em straight in" thing, either...

The exception being VVD. Thiago is on a similar level, no?

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Re: Naby Keita Watch
« Reply #8615 on: September 18, 2020, 04:58:59 PM »
The exception being VVD. Thiago is on a similar level, no?

Possibly...

Still think because he's out of practice/CL hangover, etc., he won't be chucked straight in.

Would expect at least a few weeks of training before...
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Re: Naby Keita Watch
« Reply #8616 on: September 18, 2020, 05:22:07 PM »
Nah, Thiago won't be in the squad I'd have thought. By time he actually signs, and whatever protocols to do with Covid are complete, I doubt he'll have even trained.

Klopp said he's not ruling him out. I don't see him starting, but it's not impossible for him to be in the squad at least.

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Re: Naby Keita Watch
« Reply #8617 on: September 20, 2020, 06:07:45 PM »
Thoughts on Keita and the 60 minute sub? It’s become common enough that it feels like a pattern at this point. I’m guessing we’re being careful with his minutes on instruction from the sports science guys.

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Re: Naby Keita Watch
« Reply #8618 on: September 20, 2020, 06:31:37 PM »
Thoughts on Keita and the 60 minute sub? It’s become common enough that it feels like a pattern at this point. I’m guessing we’re being careful with his minutes on instruction from the sports science guys.

The game was won at that point and there was more need for control rather than a more ambitious, risk taking midfielder like Naby.
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Re: Naby Keita Watch
« Reply #8619 on: September 20, 2020, 06:32:38 PM »
Thoughts on Keita and the 60 minute sub? It’s become common enough that it feels like a pattern at this point. I’m guessing we’re being careful with his minutes on instruction from the sports science guys.

Yeah I think there is def something in it with coming off on 60 again. Guess they are building him up fitness wise to just make sure the niggles are gone.

Offline Suareznumber7

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Re: Naby Keita Watch
« Reply #8620 on: September 20, 2020, 06:33:44 PM »
Yeah I think there is def something in it with coming off on 60 again. Guess they are building him up fitness wise to just make sure the niggles are gone.

Yup and makes a lot of sense.

Offline AmanShah21

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Re: Naby Keita Watch
« Reply #8621 on: September 20, 2020, 06:36:24 PM »
Another solid performance. Starting to come back slowly to his best form. Keita and Thiago in the midfield means we should be dealing with those parked buses swiftly and efficiently now.

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Re: Naby Keita Watch
« Reply #8622 on: September 20, 2020, 09:21:21 PM »
was disappointed that the nice 1-2 with Mane didn't come off for the mane hat-trick.

Offline Cozzymoto

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Re: Naby Keita Watch
« Reply #8623 on: September 21, 2020, 12:41:32 AM »
Disappointed with Naby, while his pressing game was on point his strengths was running at defenders which we hardly seen him to do since he joined us.

He seemed to be just passing back to the defenders every single time he had the ball.

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Re: Naby Keita Watch
« Reply #8624 on: September 21, 2020, 01:11:25 AM »
Might have said it before but I think Keita is really at a critical point where he needs to start taking games by the scruff of the neck if he wants to become an elite midfielder in one of the world's best teams.

I feel as though he doesn't take 'risks' or try to dictate the game when he could, but then loses the ball sometimes trying to force the issue.

Really one of my favourite players to watch when he's running at the defence and picking passes, but seems his first instinct at the moment is to dish the ball off to the guy next to him.

Still, he's not playing bad, getting the job done and positioning is quite good, just think its about time he takes his game to the next level.

Offline KirkVanHouten

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Re: Naby Keita Watch
« Reply #8625 on: September 21, 2020, 01:29:29 AM »
Thoughts on Keita and the 60 minute sub? It’s become common enough that it feels like a pattern at this point. I’m guessing we’re being careful with his minutes on instruction from the sports science guys.

I think it's equally about who is being brought on too. We have had an unusual preseason and we play at a very high intensity. We need to get match fitness into the whole squad. Works well for Naby as he's hardly had a run of games in the side. Manage his minutes and get him some momentum and I think we'll see the best out of him.
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Re: Naby Keita Watch
« Reply #8626 on: September 21, 2020, 01:29:39 AM »
I thought he was excellent for the 60 minutes he was on. His pressing, closing down of gaps, linking with defence. The most important thing for me when I watch a game is how the team performs as a unit. Today it was seamless, everyone in sync. Never felt like Chelsea were in the game.

A good measure of how the team as a whole played is the to go on teh CHelsea forums and see what they are saying. The despondency at being utterly suffocated and not having a chance in the game is palpable.

The difference between sterile possession and domination is how much the ball is played in front of the opposition. When the ball is pinged aimessly side-to-side with the opposition just needing the shuffle about to keep their shape, that is sterile possession (e.g. United v Palace). When the team is constantly probing for openings and snaffling the ball back as soon as a move breaks down, that is domination. Chelsea were under constant pressure, unable to get their heads up and play the ball around. As soon as they lost it, Liverpool were probing for opnenings. That wore them down and eventually told in the red card.

Keita was a big part of that, he was constantly pushing high, not letting the Chelsea midfield turn in possession. That is a huge part of the game when you play a highline, you don't want the opposition looking up and pinging balls over your heads. When Chelsea did manage to break he was like a dynamo getting back to help shut them down.  The most frequent comment I read on the Chelsea forums was how their midfield was bossed. That was down to Henderson, Keita and Wijnaldum.
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Re: Naby Keita Watch
« Reply #8627 on: September 21, 2020, 01:36:30 AM »
I thought he was excellent for the 60 minutes he was on. His pressing, closing down of gaps, linking with defence. The most important thing for me when I watch a game is how the team performs as a unit. Today it was seamless, everyone in sync. Never felt like Chelsea were in the game.

Couldn’t agree more, Keita’s performance was more about what he did off the ball as opposed to on it. Did his job to a tee and once the game was wrapped up he was given a rest which is understandable given the boatload of fixtures we have coming up.

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Re: Naby Keita Watch
« Reply #8628 on: September 21, 2020, 02:46:51 AM »
Disappointed with Naby, while his pressing game was on point his strengths was running at defenders which we hardly seen him to do since he joined us.

He seemed to be just passing back to the defenders every single time he had the ball.

Might have said it before but I think Keita is really at a critical point where he needs to start taking games by the scruff of the neck if he wants to become an elite midfielder in one of the world's best teams.

I feel as though he doesn't take 'risks' or try to dictate the game when he could, but then loses the ball sometimes trying to force the issue.

Really one of my favourite players to watch when he's running at the defence and picking passes, but seems his first instinct at the moment is to dish the ball off to the guy next to him.

Still, he's not playing bad, getting the job done and positioning is quite good, just think its about time he takes his game to the next level.
Has it crossed your minds that he might be following instructions?

We know what he can do as a forward-minded midfielder; we also know that Klopp often wants his midfield to dominate and suffocate, leaving his fullbacks and forwards to do the actual creativity. So maybe in games like this Keita isn't 'failing' by not driving forward, but rather doing what his manager has asked him to do.
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Offline kcbworth

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Re: Naby Keita Watch
« Reply #8629 on: September 21, 2020, 03:22:09 AM »
I thought he was one of our best from about 12 mins to about 40 mins. First 10 mins anonymous and then other players stepped up afterwards. Keep an eye out during this period anyone who watches this back

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Re: Naby Keita Watch
« Reply #8630 on: September 21, 2020, 04:44:11 AM »
we saw 2 sides of him in the games. and i do think that he is evolving and maturing under klopp and us

1st half was him doing a lot of the dirty work off the ball as pressing and cutting out the angles to stop chelsea building up from the back. A bit passive in his play to keep the ball instead of making the risky passes. in the 2nd half when we are a man up and thiago orchestrating the midfield, there is a shift in his role as one of the players trying to find gaps and breaking up the chelsea defence.

My guess is that he is being instructed to do diff roles in the team as the match progresses.

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Re: Naby Keita Watch
« Reply #8631 on: September 21, 2020, 04:49:59 AM »
Keita is doing a Gini.

He's being asked to play a certain way, to benefit the side as a whole. It's not as eye-catching as the stuff we know he can do, the same with Gini. But that doesn't mean it's not important.
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Offline deadsetred

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Re: Naby Keita Watch
« Reply #8632 on: September 21, 2020, 06:04:25 AM »
Has it crossed your minds that he might be following instructions?

We know what he can do as a forward-minded midfielder; we also know that Klopp often wants his midfield to dominate and suffocate, leaving his fullbacks and forwards to do the actual creativity. So maybe in games like this Keita isn't 'failing' by not driving forward, but rather doing what his manager has asked him to do.

Yes it did. I was going to add that there's no real urgency for Keita take his game to the next level as he's doing a fine job at the moment, playing the team role etc. But when he really grows into his potential he'll be better at knowing when he can take a few more risks and imposing himself. At the moment he's erring on the side of caution, which is fine from the team's perspective, but I'm just looking to seeing what he can do when the penny really drops for him.

Offline markthescouser

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Re: Naby Keita Watch
« Reply #8633 on: September 21, 2020, 06:21:29 AM »
Keita is doing a Gini.

He's being asked to play a certain way, to benefit the side as a whole. It's not as eye-catching as the stuff we know he can do, the same with Gini. But that doesn't mean it's not important.
Yea exactly my thought about doing a Gini. Even in Naby’s better games over the past few months I’ve thought that as a team, we seem to lack a little bit of control when he’s there. Usually the cm against a bigger team would be Fabinho, Henderson and Gini for that reason, and I did wonder how we were going to fair today in that regard as we were kind of forced into our midfield selection, but he did very well. Completely different side to him that I’ve not really noticed before. Bet Klopp’s delighted with him.

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Re: Naby Keita Watch
« Reply #8634 on: September 21, 2020, 06:24:49 AM »
He definitely got a hug as he came off. I love watching him play now, because the anticipation is there that at any moment something special could happen.
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Re: Naby Keita Watch
« Reply #8635 on: September 21, 2020, 07:36:22 AM »
Been subbed on 60 & 62 mins now which I think must be pre planned and sport science lead

Think we’re building his fitness and strength to allow him to get back to Leipzig levels of fitness. Be interested to see the next game he starts and if he gets nearer 70 mins

There’s no doubting his quality and ability

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Re: Naby Keita Watch
« Reply #8636 on: September 21, 2020, 08:47:22 AM »
Solid game. Its nice to see him run with the ball but he was against Kante, Jorginho and Kovacic who are all good at tackling. If he would have lost the ball then Chelsea would have countered. Dont fall into that trap and he made sure he didnt.

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Re: Naby Keita Watch
« Reply #8637 on: September 21, 2020, 08:48:37 AM »
Now I've never believed he was Mane/Salah fast - but always thought he was quick.

There were moments against Leeds and before he came off yesterday where it looked like he was running through treacle when trying to track back. Hopefully thats an early season fitness thing and nothing else. But having said that, we've already seen a couple of times where he just glides past two or three players at ease.
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Re: Naby Keita Watch
« Reply #8638 on: September 21, 2020, 09:02:09 AM »
Think playing next to Thiago will help him. Xavi and iniesta vibes. Always thought with those two when playing with each other both their levels raised.
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Re: Naby Keita Watch
« Reply #8639 on: September 21, 2020, 09:24:03 AM »
Now I've never believed he was Mane/Salah fast - but always thought he was quick.

There were moments against Leeds and before he came off yesterday where it looked like he was running through treacle when trying to track back. Hopefully thats an early season fitness thing and nothing else. But having said that, we've already seen a couple of times where he just glides past two or three players at ease.

His top speed is pretty slow I think. He's very nippy over 5 yards. Good acceleration, poor top speed.