Author Topic: Round Table: Arsenal 3 Liverpool 4  (Read 15112 times)

Offline Yorkykopite

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Re: Round Table: Arsenal 3 Liverpool 4
« Reply #40 on: August 17, 2016, 03:51:33 PM »
Judging by our first half performance I could not have imagined that we would have such good ball retention, I think for the first 45 minutes we could barely string 2 passes together nevermind 19! The pass that really stood out, though, was Lovren's into Wijnaldum just before it was laid out to Clyne. A perfect example of passing between the lines and cutting through a midfield. An excellent spot by Lovren and terrific movement by Wijnaldum to take up the position.

Yes, it was nice movement by Wijnaldum - although by that stage (we'd had the ball constantly for the best part of 5 minutes) it becomes easier to find those spaces since the opposition is mentally and physically flagging. As well they should be! But, as you say, Lovren's was a nice pass too. I liked the way he feinted before he cut back inside and delivered. It's a small thing, but it's a telling one. Klavan was doing this too. Putting the opposition into two minds about where the next pass is going.

People talk as if Klavan (or Lovren) is a superior version of Skrtel. They are more than that. They are different models. I don't ever remember Skrtel throwing dummies before passing. Agger, yes, all the time. But not Skrtel. Too one-footed for one thing.
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Offline SteveLFC

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Re: Round Table: Arsenal 3 Liverpool 4
« Reply #41 on: August 17, 2016, 03:54:13 PM »
This was the opening day of the season and typically you can never draw any conclusions about a season from these fixtures. This doesn't stop pundits from making their audacious predictions about the season of course. In the same way it doesn't stop the media from presenting the opening day league table. I am old enough to remember that the league tables were never presented until 3 matches were played and even then they were shown with meaningless intent.

On Sunday, we witnessed at 68 minutes, the Arsenal fans were booing, we were going mental with delight. Will this be the case throughout the season? I hope so but probably not. There will be the usual mixture of poor form and great form as we ride this seasonal Rollercoaster. One thing is for sure however, this Klopp squad have no option but to give there all to the club in every minute of every match. It is the Klopp way after all. The arm round the shoulder is quickly followed by the massive bollocking when you fuck up.

Of course Coutinho deserved MOM for that free kick alone, it turned the match and ignited the belief. However, for me, the standout moment and the one thing that makes me genuinely excited for the first time since Suarez scored on his debut against Stoke, was Mane. Not just the goal he scored but it was the thing that happens so rarely when watching football. That thing where a player receives the ball outside the box and as a fan watching, I can physically feel my eyes widening and the hairs rising on the back of my neck in anticipation. We have a real player in Mane...

Nobody can sensibly make predictions for the season after the opening day but I know for sure that we have the tools, the passion, the energy and the work ethic that can make anything possible. Bring on Burnley!

Offline The Corinth

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Re: Round Table: Arsenal 3 Liverpool 4
« Reply #42 on: August 17, 2016, 04:38:29 PM »
I want to ask you whether you've ever seen Alonso

Er, not sure who you think you're talking to here. I've been watching us since 1971, so 11 league titles and 5 Europeans, regular home and away till I stopped going the game after Hillsborough, so yes I have seen Alonso ta, just as I watched Souness and Terry Mac and Whelan and Jimmy Case, and never once heard anyone ever complaining about this supposed issue before, and yet all those trophies, how come, with midfielders that didn't play on the 'half-turn'? It must be some RAWK pseudo-tactical-genius bollocks that someone's come up with to beat Henderson with. It's a red herring put politely, and a load of irrelevant shite put scouse.

Offline Yorkykopite

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Re: Round Table: Arsenal 3 Liverpool 4
« Reply #43 on: August 17, 2016, 04:41:53 PM »
Er, not sure who you think you're talking to here. I've been watching us since 1971, so 11 league titles and 5 Europeans, regular home and away till I stopped going the game after Hillsborough, so yes I have seen Alonso ta, just as I watched Souness and Terry Mac and Whelan and Jimmy Case, and never once heard anyone ever complaining about this supposed issue before, and yet all those trophies, how come, with midfielders that didn't play on the 'half-turn'? It must be some RAWK pseudo-tactical-genius bollocks that someone's come up with to beat Henderson with. It's a red herring put politely, and a load of irrelevant shite put scouse.
Yeah, probably. As you were.
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Offline DanA

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Re: Round Table: Arsenal 3 Liverpool 4
« Reply #44 on: August 17, 2016, 04:42:52 PM »
It'll be interesting to see how things pan out this season. Can, Lucas, Milner, Sturridge, Matip, Sakho and Karius are still not 100%, some closer than others to full fitness but none are too far away. It seemed to have little effect, we fielded a strong side but the number of options we've got still to come is encouraging, you could make a strong case for any one of them bar Lucas to be a part of our best XI.

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Offline BabuYagu

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Re: Round Table: Arsenal 3 Liverpool 4
« Reply #45 on: August 17, 2016, 04:48:46 PM »
Er, not sure who you think you're talking to here. I've been watching us since 1971, so 11 league titles and 5 Europeans, regular home and away till I stopped going the game after Hillsborough, so yes I have seen Alonso ta, just as I watched Souness and Terry Mac and Whelan and Jimmy Case, and never once heard anyone ever complaining about this supposed issue before, and yet all those trophies, how come, with midfielders that didn't play on the 'half-turn'? It must be some RAWK pseudo-tactical-genius bollocks that someone's come up with to beat Henderson with. It's a red herring put politely, and a load of irrelevant shite put scouse.
Your entire argument appears to be "I´ve never heard of this, it wasn´t needed in the past = it´s irrelevant or made up shite"

Your evidence for what needs to happen is based on your 45 years watching Liverpool whereas the evidence you need is the 14 years of Klopp as a manager in the Bundesliga.

Klopp won´t build a Shanks, or a Paisley, or a Dalglish or a Rafa Liverpool side. He will build a Klopp one. Based on how he views football and what he believes each role in the team needs. That means brave, confident, risk taking players, a physically imposing holding midfielder. An explosive full back. A runner in midfield who can link play and turn on the ball. Players willing to attack the box from all angles, Players who are capable of exploiting the half spaces and switching play between them (this is Coutinho, he isn´t a wide player. We don´t need one). Forwards who will vacate the central position leaving space to be attacked by runners.

If you watch how Klopp´s sides worked at Dortmund, you will see what he will be aiming to achieve here. What players he targets for each position and you can deduce why. It won´t look like anything we have seen before at Liverpool. It doesn´t make it wrong. Just different.
Gonna stay behind at work and wait to see what happens.

I am betting some split arse and crying.

Offline BabuYagu

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Re: Round Table: Arsenal 3 Liverpool 4
« Reply #46 on: August 17, 2016, 04:59:39 PM »
Oh, and the goals were magic. All four of them. That ability to swarm and score in bursts (e.g. 3 goals in 25 minutes away to Manchester City last November; 3 goals in 25 minutes against Dortmund in April; 4 goals in 20 minutes against Arsenal on Sunday) is downright frightening and marks this team out as a very dangerous animal indeed.

I can see some teams being destroyed by us. We won´t always be in 5th gear in games but I imagine some teams will have a bad 20 mins against us in the first half, another in the second half, and it will be enough to have lost by 6 or 7.

Likewise, we are never really out of a game. We will continue to swarm and press and be a threat and teams know that even 2 goals with 10-15 minutes to play isn´t a comfortable lead.

We aren´t the best team in the league. But I would struggle to argue against us being the most dangerous at the moment. Nobody will want to play us.
Gonna stay behind at work and wait to see what happens.

I am betting some split arse and crying.

Offline Gnurglan

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Re: Round Table: Arsenal 3 Liverpool 4
« Reply #47 on: August 17, 2016, 08:13:33 PM »
Enjoyed reading the tactical explanations.

The most positive things for me was the way we scored our goals. I've read during the summer that we're missing a freekick taker. Not if Coutinho can be on that level! The other Coutinho goal was a type of goal he has not scored very often. And then there's my favorite one - Mane's. Really strong individual performance. Lallana's? Just what we need from him.

Their first was IMO down to us losing the ball too easy in midfield. I'm not so worried about how they scored the second. Clyne is normally steady. Moreno's penalty, that Mignolet did so well to save, was more of the same. The third, a freekick, was disappointing to concede.

As people have pointed out before, our CM is a slight worry. Players can't turn and when under pressure we struggle. Maybe Can or Lucas can improve us, because we need to improve. In this game we found a way and that's promising. It was Arsenal away and the early part of the second half was really, really good. Some more of that football, if we can find that kind of quality for just 15 minutes, that could be enough to beat a lot of sides.

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Offline The Corinth

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Re: Round Table: Arsenal 3 Liverpool 4
« Reply #48 on: August 17, 2016, 10:52:22 PM »
If you watch how Klopp´s sides worked at Dortmund, you will see what he will be aiming to achieve here. What players he targets for each position and you can deduce why. It won´t look like anything we have seen before at Liverpool. It doesn´t make it wrong. Just different.

Just to clarify, are you actually Jurgen Klopp himself? Because in every one of your posts you tell RAWK what Klopp is going to do in terms of this, that and the other, as though it is not your opinion but fact, like you either are him, or have sat in a room with him while he stroked his beard and laughed and said "Eh, Babu, my old freund, this is what I think about everything there is to think about, so listen, and take notes if you want".

Klopp is likely to have ideas that he brings with him, sure, but he has also walked into a club and professed that he is excited about the quality of players to work with. Suggesting he will just gradually bin everyone off and try to find identikit Dortmund replicas is just going to be proven wrong as footballers don't come off-the-shelf like that. Good managers will also work with what they have at their disposal. If Coutinho isn't like what he had at Dortmund, is Phil out the door? Sturridge too?

Ideas change over time. When Rafa signed Peter Crouch, was he Rafa's mental replacement for some beanpole striker he had at Valencia that was surprisingly good with his feet for a man with size 23 feet? Nope. He was just Peter Crouch.

If ideas are so fixed, why did Rafa sign Crouch, Torres, and Robbie Keane, none of whom are anything like each other?

I don't buy it (like much of the stuff that pervades RAWK).

I'm looking forward to seeing what Klopp brings to LFC. What pisses me off is people's little agendas, digging out the club skipper for the most scrawny measly miserable Victor Meldrew-esque trivial nitpicking of Henderson's game that it is almost possible to conceive of without entering the realm of the ridiculous e.g. he can't run with the ball balanced on his head.

We've just beaten Arsenal on their own turf ffs

Offline BabuYagu

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Re: Round Table: Arsenal 3 Liverpool 4
« Reply #49 on: August 18, 2016, 02:03:09 AM »
Just to clarify, are you actually Jurgen Klopp himself? Because in every one of your posts you tell RAWK what Klopp is going to do in terms of this, that and the other, as though it is not your opinion but fact, like you either are him, or have sat in a room with him while he stroked his beard and laughed and said "Eh, Babu, my old freund, this is what I think about everything there is to think about, so listen, and take notes if you want".

You don´t need to speak to someone or put probes in their head to understand how they think and why they probably make the decisions they do. I read a lot about German football over the past 6 months in general as well as on Klopp himself. Blogs, books, whatever I could get my hands on. Klopp is very German in how he sees football but also has his own ideas and elements of the game that he thinks are more important than not.

I could be totally wrong of course, he could start playing with a 5'4" deep lying playmaker. Play 3 at the back. Play a narrow diamond in midfield. Play a low block. He could literally do anything at all. He has that freedom. There is absolutely nothing at all to suggest he will though. That´s why it´s important.

If you study his sides and also how they have gradually changed as he made adjustments to counter the problems he faced, you can begin to understand what he wants for each role on the pitch, and why. You can understand what he might be willing to sacrifice to accommodate a particular player (Coutinho - goal threat) but also what he probably won´t sacrifice (Allen - physicality for the sitter role, creativity and goal threat as a runner, Benteke - he pretty much does nothing that Klopp would want in any phase of play).  You also see that all his formations are 4-1-4-1. At least that is their starting point in the defensive phase. It doesn´t matter what players he has on the pitch and what shape we say they will be, that is the shape he has in mind for us to press the ball. An asymmetrical 4-1-4-1. We will have a stagger line of 3 in midfield at different heights and widths on the pitch so multiple people can press from all angles for any ball in midfield, we have 4 people who can press the ball in any zone on the flank, we have one forward to shut down two defensive players (usually a FB and CB) encouraging play to go down one side or the other.

So when you say Henderson may become his sitting midfielder. Sure, that can happen, because everything is possible until it isn´t. It´s improbable though because his first priority in that role is aerial dominance. He forces the opposition into playing long passes into certain areas of the pitch and having an explosive player and an aerially dominate player near the area he leaves open means he can usually win the ground or aerial race to the ball. Or at the very least make sure it´s heavily contested. That´s why at the moment that particular trap point for him is Can & Moreno.

Likewise you saying turning is irrelevant and not a requires skill in CM. You are right but only for coaches that place absolutely no importance on this. Like Mourinho. The problem is when a side presses them high up the pitch then they can no longer link play. Like Chelsea vs us last season. We separated Hazard (who was their AM) from Mikel and Ramires that day by pressing them in front of the defence. It´s why Mourinho despite being in charge of one of the best teams in every country he manages tends to struggle most with sides that press him. It´s why many believe Guardiola and Klopp have his number.

So unless we see Pogba, Herrera or Carrick in CM for them against Guardiola, Klopp or even Ponchetino then I suspect they will really struggle to link play. Of course with Ibra up front as a target man and the pace of Martial and Mkhitaryan running off him, they could still be a threat. But the point is a certain tactical setup can dictate to United now how they play. We would be imposing our will on them and deciding how the game is played. That is what Klopp wants and is very effective at achieving. Football is a very complicated game where the best team doesn´t always win of course, it would be boring otherwise. So maybe Mourinho still gets a good result in those games. But it wouldn´t be as a result of his tactical plan as he wont´have been allowed to play it.

No matter what else happen, I believe we will have a risk taking goalkeeper, at least 1 explosive full back, an aggressive CB not afraid to press anything in front of him, a ball player in defence, a defender who reads the game well able to cover the more aggressive one, a sitter in midfield who is aerially dominate, a runner in midfield who can turn in tight spaces and has range, players wanting to run beyond the striker as part of the 3 attacking mids and a forward who vacates the central position a LOT in the attacking phase but who will also press hard the defence. In two years time, if Klopp is still here, almost every game that will describe our side. It does for almost every game Dortmund ever played. And there are tactical reasons for each role needing specific qualities whereby if we are lacking, it can cause a chain reaction of problems throughout the side. Just look at how much trouble Benteke caused us last season in our defensive phase (we couldn´t use pressing traps at all) attacking phase (his movement meant the center backs were rarely moved out of position preventing runners into the box) transition to defence (he didn´t press the defence allowing circulation of the ball and easier counter attacks against us) transition to attack (similar to attacking phase, he stays pretty central meaning the opposition is rarely far from their defensive shape allowing them little time to reorganise upon losing the ball).

That is how 1 player who doesn´t fit the system can just break it. Which is why Klopp will recruit to his system. As a coach, do you think he will bin his entire system to accomodate players, or bin players when the chance arrises to get players who do fit the system? For me the latter just seems more likely and all our transfers so far support this also. So I believe in 2 years time our entire squad of players will suit at least 1 role on the pitch. Or slight tactical modifications will have been made to support them (Coutinho & Wijnaldum playing near each other for example, Wij is the goal thread, Coutinho the play maker rather than the other way round in Dortmund).

This isn´t personal agenda, because if I am right then it means my 2 favourite players may have some adjusting to do or they will be upgraded on soon. Daniel Sturridge and Jordan Henderson. And to be honest, I thought Coutinho may also be in trouble unless he started attacking the box or someone was signed to play behind him but run beyond him. It seems both those things are happening now though. But I don´t think coaching or small adjustments can solve the problems of Henderson being in a Klopp midfield two (3 maybe, but then he loses attacking movement which he prefers to avoid).
Gonna stay behind at work and wait to see what happens.

I am betting some split arse and crying.

Offline DanA

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Round Table: Arsenal 3 Liverpool 4
« Reply #50 on: August 18, 2016, 04:00:58 AM »
.

I think that's a far too rigid view of Klopp both what he did at Dortmund and what he wants.

Which category does Sahin fit in? He's a 5'11 deep lying playmaker that's slow, not at all aerially dominant, certainly not a runner. But he was a key player before his big move to Real Madrid.

Klopp's used a lot of very different players.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2016, 04:03:55 AM by DanA »
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Offline elbow

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Re: Round Table: Arsenal 3 Liverpool 4
« Reply #51 on: August 18, 2016, 07:07:06 AM »
Of course Coutinho deserved MOM for that free kick alone, it turned the match and ignited the belief. However, for me, the standout moment and the one thing that makes me genuinely excited for the first time since Suarez scored on his debut against Stoke, was Mane. Not just the goal he scored but it was the thing that happens so rarely when watching football. That thing where a player receives the ball outside the box and as a fan watching, I can physically feel my eyes widening and the hairs rising on the back of my neck in anticipation. We have a real player in Mane...

I have nothing to add to the usual great writing here. The bit in bold above. I love that feeling as a football fan.
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Offline Halibut-Thumb

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Re: Round Table: Arsenal 3 Liverpool 4
« Reply #52 on: August 18, 2016, 08:40:16 AM »
I watched the game again and the subtle class of Wijnaldum's play shone without my nervousness of watching it live. He takes up really good positions in midfield when we have the ball and he times his runs into the box really intelligently. When our team gets used to playing with him I think we'll have some player on our hands. I also thought Henderson did quite well in a position he's not accustomed to playing, and his use of the ball was top class, he looked like the 2014 Henderson which is very encouraging for the season ahead. With Wijnaldum in the squad now he'll have to up his game to win his spot because Can is always going to play DM when he's fit.
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Offline steveeastend

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Re: Round Table: Arsenal 3 Liverpool 4
« Reply #53 on: August 18, 2016, 09:36:20 AM »
The work of Klopp finally made us look like a proper football team again. And maybe, after all those years of transitions between talented managers like Rafa, not so talented ones like Hodgson, legends out of football too long and someone calling himself a manager without actually being one, it was about time. How we managed to not become some sort of a laughing stock in all those recent years is pretty remarkable although there were others to offer some deflaction in this league or created from the club itself but that's part of the entertainment of footy nowadays.. I suppose.

Each to their one, also on this forum, but me, I still prefer the actual game, the football itself, the quality in technique, team play et.etc.

Did anyone noticed the improved passing in the final third? Which is nothing those set of players would be capable of from their talent themselves, despite offering a lot of individual quality but none from the level of Suarez, Gerrard or Torres where link up play and outstanding techniqual abilities would go without mentioning. We still don't have this quality around, at the moment this won't matter though as we have a mananger offering the typical german approach to football which is basically all about the workrate in training...physical strength, tactical work in defending and attacking patterns..

Speaking of attacking patterns...this passing in the final third, of course, has been practised in training and shows the result of the work Klopp was mentioning in his interviews, the important work which could finally be done together in preseason, which wasn't possible the last one. Suddenly Clyne knows where to cross, Coutinho knows which spaces to make his run into... looking all so natural and easy from the outside. But, as mentioned above, those players are not Suarez, Torres or Gerrard. They have to work on their last 10% of quality in order to make the difference on the pitch. Klopp is the right man to keep them on the ground and have them improve individually and as a team.

We are in a good place now, football wise, and as a football club, all thanks to Klopp. There is competition around, we are not depending on players like Sturridge, who won't becoming more important than the rest of the group anymore and the margin for them playing games with the club have dropped to zero. For that, the focus will shift away from the players as we have a manager now who won't use them as an excuse for his own shortcomings or to cement his position within the club which was a lot true for the last man in charge.

Even when it comes to transfers the times of agents and other clubs using the naivity of our owners seem to be over. As Klopp said, if anyone thinks he can use LiverpoolFC to get anything from the club for the cheap are over. No manager or agents going for a cut, no transfers without making sense just to give away those players on the cheap or keeping them around for literally money for nothing like Cole or Henrique.

Good times ahead, personally, I cannot see anything wrong with the squad for this season, as we have no international football around. After this one, Klopp will know even more on his next step but you should do one after the other anyway. In life and football.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2016, 09:57:05 AM by steveeastend »
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Offline Gene

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Re: Round Table: Arsenal 3 Liverpool 4
« Reply #54 on: August 18, 2016, 01:13:03 PM »
I think that's a far too rigid view of Klopp both what he did at Dortmund and what he wants.

Which category does Sahin fit in? He's a 5'11 deep lying playmaker that's slow, not at all aerially dominant, certainly not a runner. But he was a key player before his big move to Real Madrid.

Klopp's used a lot of very different players.

Actually to be fair, a deep playmaker has been what he has been described as here in England, and much of that because of his role at Real Madrid. But at Dortmund he more often than not paired with Sven Bender in a midfield two and acted more as the ball carrier as BabuYagu suggested.

Frankly, I find it difficult to argue with anything BabuYagu has mentioned. Sure Klopp will tweak things here and there or make exceptions, but his core philosophy and what he expects in certain roles has always and will always remain the same.

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Offline BabuYagu

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Re: Round Table: Arsenal 3 Liverpool 4
« Reply #55 on: August 18, 2016, 02:32:49 PM »
I think that's a far too rigid view of Klopp both what he did at Dortmund and what he wants.

Which category does Sahin fit in? He's a 5'11 deep lying playmaker that's slow, not at all aerially dominant, certainly not a runner. But he was a key player before his big move to Real Madrid.

Klopp's used a lot of very different players.

Sahin was the runner in Klopp´s system. He was described by one of the coaches at the time as a floating playmaker or a free role midfielder. Despite his height, he can turn in tight spaces with the ball and in a midfield 2, his job was to link play and create.

The runner position needs to be able to do those two things to fit for Klopp. Ideally they can support the attack too and when you have our budget, Klopp can aim for 3/3 players instead of 2/3 players now for what he likes. Which means a lot of the time at Dortmund, he didn´t get the player he wanted and tended to settle for players who ticked the boxes for physical abilities and then tried to build them into more rounded players.
Gonna stay behind at work and wait to see what happens.

I am betting some split arse and crying.

Offline Yorkykopite

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Re: Round Table: Arsenal 3 Liverpool 4
« Reply #56 on: August 18, 2016, 02:42:03 PM »
Sahin was the runner in Klopp´s system. He was described by one of the coaches at the time as a floating playmaker or a free role midfielder. Despite his height, he can turn in tight spaces with the ball and in a midfield 2, his job was to link play and create.

The runner position needs to be able to do those two things to fit for Klopp. Ideally they can support the attack too and when you have our budget, Klopp can aim for 3/3 players instead of 2/3 players now for what he likes. Which means a lot of the time at Dortmund, he didn´t get the player he wanted and tended to settle for players who ticked the boxes for physical abilities and then tried to build them into more rounded players.

Although you will agree that Sahin was probably the slowest runner ever to take to the football field? Certainly for Liverpool. His pace was glacial. Indeed I remember at the end of one game there was terminal moraine around him.
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Re: Round Table: Arsenal 3 Liverpool 4
« Reply #57 on: August 18, 2016, 02:55:27 PM »
Enlightening stuff, BabuYagu.
Clearly Klopp rates players like Al-Daoud from Borussia M. Does that corroborate your analysis? Where would that sort of player fit in?

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Re: Round Table: Arsenal 3 Liverpool 4
« Reply #58 on: August 18, 2016, 04:26:17 PM »
Although you will agree that Sahin was probably the slowest runner ever to take to the football field? Certainly for Liverpool. His pace was glacial. Indeed I remember at the end of one game there was terminal moraine around him.

Interestingly his pace was never a problem really in Dortmund. He was never quick but I think the parameters of his role and the compact shape Dortmund kept helped him out a lot (hence why I think Lucas might be fine as cover for us in midfield and CB this season if we keep him).

I also think he may have lost some pace between Dortmund and here - maybe some injuries took away the little explosiveness he had?

But he is the guy I meant when I said Klopp had some 2/3 players. He lacked the legs to support the attack and also get behind the ball again when the attacks broke down. Now he appears to be looking for players who can link play, create and also have the zip and energy to hit the box and recover into his position all game. Both Dahoud and Wijnaldum have had all the above said about them.

I also think Klopp prefers player to have some versatility to them. Sahin would be a player that can probably only play one way in midfield because you need to partner him with someone aerially dominant and also make sure we are spatially compact around him so he doesn´t get lost in midfield with too much space.

Enlightening stuff, BabuYagu.
Clearly Klopp rates players like Al-Daoud from Borussia M. Does that corroborate your analysis? Where would that sort of player fit in?

Which brings me onto this. I can see him targetting Dahoud again for sure. He ticks all the boxes for Klopp. He also gives us that range which is so important. One thing in particular Klopp (and Guardiola) want to do is create overloads on one flank and then play out and switch across to the opposite half space where we have isolated a full back. To see examples of this, look at how Guardiola used Robben and Alonso for Bayern in particular. He would create overloads on the left, gradually pulling most of the other teams shape away from the center. His players would be compact but yet far enough apart to ensure that to mark them would mean that the opposition couldn´t effectively press the ball without leaving players in dangerous areas unmarked. Yet as the overload suggests, Bayern always had enough players there to make sure at least 1 player would be unmarked. In essence, he brought the opposition towards the ball and yet gave them zero access to the ball.

At the same time, Robben drifts into the half space right, isolates their left back and Alonso drops deep in line with but about 10 yards from the overload. Bayern pop the ball out to him and he switches it to Robben who merely needs to beat a right back to have a clear cut goalscoring chance.

This is the sort of moves Klopp will be looking to build into our play this season in the attacking phase and how we will look to unlock a park the bus team. Overload them, force them to deal with it, give them no access to deal with it, switch play on them to where there is space and then kill the off.

Another plus from doing this also is that should we lose the ball in an overload, we are in great shape to immediately win it back. We have more players in close vicinity to the ball than them making it very hard to play out of.  So even should the move itself fail, them trying to counter when winning the ball can also disrupt their shape and winning the back at that time results in dangerous situations for us to exploit also.

Dahoud is perfect to play in such a way. He can play in those tight spaces, has a shot on him, can switch play, run forever. What´s not to like. I heard Naby Kieta mentioned recently too who confirmed himself we were after him before he moved to Germany. I have genuinely never seen him play but reading about him, he sounds a lot like Dahoud and thus it makes sense. Even Zielinski looked like a budget-Dahoud. I imagine he is someone we would like in our squad for many positions and also because he can perform this role in our midfield. He is the only player we targeted for midfield where I think he was being signed to cover many roles rather than signed to be 1st choice anywhere. I could see him playing the Gotze, Kagawa or Gundogan roles in a Dortmund side for sure. But not at the same level of any of them. Yet.

I also believe the most important players in Klopps system is the runner and the forward. Because when the wrong player is in either of those roles or has a very poor game tactically, Klopps sides always struggled. Which means I think for the right player - Klopp would probably throw everything at it.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2016, 04:28:53 PM by BabuYagu »
Gonna stay behind at work and wait to see what happens.

I am betting some split arse and crying.

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Re: Round Table: Arsenal 3 Liverpool 4
« Reply #59 on: August 18, 2016, 08:32:00 PM »
Sahin was a different player before his injury...
One thing does need to be said: in the post-Benitez era, there was media-led clamour (but also some politicking going on at the club) to make the club more English; the idea being that the club had lost the very essence of what it means to be ‘Liverpool’. Guillem Ballague 18/11/10

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Re: Round Table: Arsenal 3 Liverpool 4
« Reply #60 on: August 18, 2016, 09:22:04 PM »
What aspect of our game did we change at half time to turn it around?  It seemed in the first half that Coquelin, Elneny and Ramsey were very effective at closing down our midfielders in possession , which limited our attacking options.  In the first 20 minutes of the 2nd half we were cutting them open at will.  Was it the case that our lads weren't following Klopp's script in the first half and he was able to get them back on plan for the 2nd half?

Away wins at Arsenal (Emirates and Highbury) have become regrettably rare for us since Wenger took over, so I'll savour that one for a long time.  When we're in top gear these days you feel that we're unbeatable.

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Re: Round Table: Arsenal 3 Liverpool 4
« Reply #61 on: August 18, 2016, 09:58:06 PM »
Coutinho's free kick was I thought just a nicely placed shot, but seeing it again from the camera behind the goal you see a really vicous curve on it well after he's kicked it, and you also only see Cech reacting well after it's past over the wall.

It was very deceptive.
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Re: Round Table: Arsenal 3 Liverpool 4
« Reply #62 on: August 18, 2016, 10:17:44 PM »
What aspect of our game did we change at half time to turn it around?  It seemed in the first half that Coquelin, Elneny and Ramsey were very effective at closing down our midfielders in possession , which limited our attacking options.  In the first 20 minutes of the 2nd half we were cutting them open at will.  Was it the case that our lads weren't following Klopp's script in the first half and he was able to get them back on plan for the 2nd half?

Away wins at Arsenal (Emirates and Highbury) have become regrettably rare for us since Wenger took over, so I'll savour that one for a long time.  When we're in top gear these days you feel that we're unbeatable.

If we told you that...  ;)
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Re: Round Table: Arsenal 3 Liverpool 4
« Reply #63 on: August 18, 2016, 10:30:55 PM »
Thanks BabuYagu..........very insightful
#JFT96

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Re: Round Table: Arsenal 3 Liverpool 4
« Reply #64 on: August 18, 2016, 10:35:37 PM »
What aspect of our game did we change at half time to turn it around?  It seemed in the first half that Coquelin, Elneny and Ramsey were very effective at closing down our midfielders in possession , which limited our attacking options.  In the first 20 minutes of the 2nd half we were cutting them open at will.  Was it the case that our lads weren't following Klopp's script in the first half and he was able to get them back on plan for the 2nd half?

Away wins at Arsenal (Emirates and Highbury) have become regrettably rare for us since Wenger took over, so I'll savour that one for a long time.  When we're in top gear these days you feel that we're unbeatable.
Arsenal
* Man Marking (and individual pressing)
* Attacked the flanks (through design unlikely, but due to our tactics)
* Failure to take advantage of overloads
* Played too many long or poor passes from wide areas causing loss of possession
Liverpool
* Pressed passing lanes centrally directing play down the flanks
* Too static in midfield (thus easy to man mark and press individually)
* Failed to link play
* Too rushed in transitions resulting in a very transition heavy game

This is how I saw the first half. The immediate shift I noticed second half was that we pressed Arsenal much higher up the pitch. Before half time we were trying to direct play onto the wings by cutting off passing lanes but now we were pressing the ball carrier directly and forcing more transitions higher up the pitch. In possession we were calmer in circulating possession and stopped trying to score off every transition. This meant we kept the ball higher up the pitch and started attacking Arsenal in their defensive shape rather than trying to exploit transitions which wasn´t working as we were not compact enough or winning possession high enough up the pitch.

We used our superior movement to break down Arsenal´s man marking attempts in midfield.  We also used quick combinations (I mentioned elsewhere that with Wijnaldum, Moreno and Coutinho on one side of the pitch, we will see this a lot this season) and 3rd man runs to further break down Arsenal´s defensive shape and increase the pace of our attacks. This movement and combinations were benefited by us being far more compact thus when moves did break down, we were better at preventing counters and winning possession back higher up the pitch as Arsenal had little space to play through.  As a result we had 20 minutes were we just pinned Arsenal into their own 3rd and just attacked, pressed, attacked, pressed, circulated possession, attacked. It was relentless and Arsenal couldn´t cope with it.

Gonna stay behind at work and wait to see what happens.

I am betting some split arse and crying.

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Re: Round Table: Arsenal 3 Liverpool 4
« Reply #65 on: August 18, 2016, 10:43:12 PM »
Arsenal
This is how I saw the first half. The immediate shift I noticed second half was that we pressed Arsenal much higher up the pitch. Before half time we were trying to direct play onto the wings by cutting off passing lanes but now we were pressing the ball carrier directly and forcing more transitions higher up the pitch. In possession we were calmer in circulating possession and stopped trying to score off every transition. This meant we kept the ball higher up the pitch and started attacking Arsenal in their defensive shape rather than trying to exploit transitions which wasn´t working as we were not compact enough or winning possession high enough up the pitch.

We used our superior movement to break down Arsenal´s man marking attempts in midfield.  We also used quick combinations (I mentioned elsewhere that with Wijnaldum, Moreno and Coutinho on one side of the pitch, we will see this a lot this season) and 3rd man runs to further break down Arsenal´s defensive shape and increase the pace of our attacks. This movement and combinations were benefited by us being far more compact thus when moves did break down, we were better at preventing counters and winning possession back higher up the pitch as Arsenal had little space to play through.  As a result we had 20 minutes were we just pinned Arsenal into their own 3rd and just attacked, pressed, attacked, pressed, circulated possession, attacked. It was relentless and Arsenal couldn´t cope with it.

The difference as you describe  simply came from a difference in intensity between first and second half. In the first half we weren't up to pace yet, always late, not enough willigness to make runs into spaces and force our play, instead we only reacted and were always late. Call it whatever you want but at the end it was nothing more like a slow start into the season. The first game after pre season usually comes with a lot of uncertainty but overall the players only needed a wake up call to get up to the intensity level Klopp expects and which is necessary to compete on the top level and to do what Klopp worked on during pre season. First half definitely didn't look like business as usual Klopp to me, more like a bad day at the office with Klopp reminding them to wake up and start the fucking season.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2016, 10:45:40 PM by steveeastend »
One thing does need to be said: in the post-Benitez era, there was media-led clamour (but also some politicking going on at the club) to make the club more English; the idea being that the club had lost the very essence of what it means to be ‘Liverpool’. Guillem Ballague 18/11/10

Offline Cork Red

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Re: Round Table: Arsenal 3 Liverpool 4
« Reply #66 on: August 18, 2016, 11:14:12 PM »
If we told you that...  ;)


Fuck, that must mean I posted my questions about 'passing lanes' and 'half turns' on Ask Men, which could lead to some very unwanted misunderstandings!

Offline BabuYagu

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Re: Round Table: Arsenal 3 Liverpool 4
« Reply #67 on: August 18, 2016, 11:19:54 PM »
The difference as you describe  simply came from a difference in intensity between first and second half. In the first half we weren't up to pace yet, always late, not enough willigness to make runs into spaces and force our play, instead we only reacted and were always late. Call it whatever you want but at the end it was nothing more like a slow start into the season. The first game after pre season usually comes with a lot of uncertainty but overall the players only needed a wake up call to get up to the intensity level Klopp expects and which is necessary to compete on the top level and to do what Klopp worked on during pre season. First half definitely didn't look like business as usual Klopp to me, more like a bad day at the office with Klopp reminding them to wake up and start the fucking season.
Sure that plays a part but there was also clear tactical changes that occured in the game. The decision to press passing lanes or the ball only comes from the coach. That is the first thing I noticed second half. Instead of pressing in wide areas in the middle of the pitch after pushing them wide, we pressed them high. We also slowed down our play in transitions and increased the speed in the attacking phase. Both those things that comes from Klopp also as the first half we were trying to beat them with transitions (Like we did Barcelona) which wasn´t working as we were not compact enough and struggling to link play, and also cost ourselves a goal. Plus Migs hurt us here too at times with distribution (giving the ball to a heavily marked Henderson). He isn´t a pro-active goalkeeper and all the pro-active things he tried at the weekend looked clumsy and almost resulted in goals against us. Migs stopped in the second half - which may be coaches instruction too.

I also think the way we used Arsenal´s man marking in midfield against them in the second half came from the coaching team. It shows an awareness of the oppositions setup that rarely comes from the players themselves.

I also think we reverted to our 1st half tactics after our 4th goal... presumably because that high intensity game wasn´t sustainable. We stopped pressing high, went into a mid-block, forced attacks wide, which should result in low quality chances for them. That has to come from the coach again. A group pressing can only be changed by the director of it. Otherwise the entire group wouldnt change simultaneously.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2016, 11:21:27 PM by BabuYagu »
Gonna stay behind at work and wait to see what happens.

I am betting some split arse and crying.

Offline 007.lankyguy

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Re: Round Table: Arsenal 3 Liverpool 4
« Reply #68 on: August 18, 2016, 11:36:43 PM »
Sure that plays a part but there was also clear tactical changes that occured in the game. The decision to press passing lanes or the ball only comes from the coach. That is the first thing I noticed second half. Instead of pressing in wide areas in the middle of the pitch after pushing them wide, we pressed them high. We also slowed down our play in transitions and increased the speed in the attacking phase. Both those things that comes from Klopp also as the first half we were trying to beat them with transitions (Like Barcelona) which wasn´t working as we were not compact enough and struggling to link play. Plus Migs hurt us here too at times with distribution (giving the ball to a heavily marked Henderson). He isn´t a pro-active goalkeeper and all the pro-active things he tried at the weekend looked clumsy and almost resulted in goals against us. Migs stopped in the second half - which may be coaches instruction too.

I also think the way we used Arsenal´s man marking in midfield against them in the second half came from the coaching team. It shows an awareness of the oppositions setup that rarely comes from the players themselves.

I also think we reverted to our 1st half tactics after our 4th goal... presumably because that high intensity game wasn´t sustainable. We stopped pressing high, went into a mid-block, forced attacks wide, which should result in low quality chances for them. That has to come from the coach again. A group pressing can only be changed by the director of it. Otherwise the entire group wouldnt change simultaneously.
Decent summary, especially the bit in bold. Having Mane and Coutinho press and squeeze Arsenal higher up the pitch with Firmino also allowed the midfield three to give us a firmer base centrally, as opposed to the first half where there was too much space for Arsenal to play into between the lines.
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Re: Round Table: Arsenal 3 Liverpool 4
« Reply #69 on: August 18, 2016, 11:40:50 PM »
Some people might find Klopp's comments on Arsenal's first goal interesting  ;)

Quote
“The chances they had were when we lost the ball. They had good counter-pressing.

“For the first goal, Adam Lallana lost the ball, he had no real chance to keep it as (Francis) Coquelin made a really good tackle and a good pass.

“We know what we did wrong and only to explain in this case it was not Alberto.

“In the game, you see him running (forward), but we had four players there. We didn’t know who was where, who had what job to do.

“We need the player to jump out to make the offensive transition, but we also need the other players there to fill the spaces.
"Mind you, I've been here during the bad times too - one year we came second." Sir Bob

Offline Frizzo

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Re: Round Table: Arsenal 3 Liverpool 4
« Reply #70 on: August 19, 2016, 01:45:18 AM »
Please remind me never to enter the post match thread again this year and just wait for the round table.

From the senseless moreno bashing to the incomprehensible criticisms of Mignolet - it's a nightmare. Having a thread where the analysis is generally more positive, intelligent, and far less hysterical, is a God send.

Wonderful OP as others have said.

I did want to touch on the goalkeeping, though. I spoke to a friend if mine who is an ex-goalkeeper and now goalkeeping coach, and he's baffled that Mignolet recieved any criticism and Cech recieved none (well, he's not baffled, he knows how biases and opinions work). Important maybe to add that he's a Manchester United fan so has no positive feelings for either team. From a goalkeeping point of view, here were his views on all of the goals:

WALCOTT (1-0): Unsavable, but Mignolet's technique was slightly off. Goalkeepers should always make a move at a shot lIke that, but it would have made no difference on this occasion

COUTINHO (1-1): Here's the interesting one. From this far out, Cech should make a much better effort on this, and indeed if you have Courtois or De Gea in goal you may see this saved. Technically, he's slow to react and probably not expecting a shot. When he does go, his shuffle is slow, his leap is tame, and he goes with his near hand, rather than his left which would be the preferred technique for extra reach with a shot from that far out where you have time to react. Cech has a little history of this - see Firmino against Arsenal last year, another shot that is tough to save, but not helped by his poor technique (probably due to his age and not having the reflexes and 'spring in his step' he once had).

LALLANA (2-1): The worst bit of goalkeeping of the game. Does an ok job of narrowing the angle, but his attempt to block the shot is from the Brad Jones school of 'predict the shot before it's happened'. See De Gea again for how to spread yourself to cover as much of the ground and make yourself as big as possible. Or see Mignolet against Suarez a couple of weeks back for an example of good technique in this position.

COUTINHO (3-1): Too quick, too close. All a goalkeeper can do is put his body in a shape and hope it hits him. No fault.

MANE (4-1): WOOF! Tell him where you're putting it, because no one's touching that one.

OXLAIDE-CHAMBERLIN (4-2): Any deflection is a nightmare for 'keepers. Especially one from 2 yards. Maybe throw an arm up and fluke a save, but unless it's in slow-mo (which is obviously what the armchair critics use) you're not reacting in time.

CHAMBERS (4-3): Heard/saw some wacky criticism about this one somewhere. Someone was saying that he took a step forward, didn't come, and therefore if he stays on his line he should save it. This is nonsense. He stayed on his line, was in good position, and saves it if it's not in the corner. The step forward is purely being ready to come if the ball is looped into the area (as Mignolet had done a couple of times already in this match). He decides very quickly and correctly that the ball is too flat and traveling too fast for him to get anywhere near it. Perfect free kick and perfect header.

Overall neither goalkeeper is glaringly at fault for any of the goals (save for maybe Lallanas) but Mignolets performance certainly shaded Cechs. Great for him to start of on a positive foot given Karius's injury.

Offline Suareznumber7

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Re: Round Table: Arsenal 3 Liverpool 4
« Reply #71 on: August 19, 2016, 02:19:58 AM »
snip

Great posts.  Thanks for putting in all the time. 

Genuinely one of the reasons to stick around and wade through all the bullshit posts that you find on a daily basis.   

Offline BabuYagu

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Re: Round Table: Arsenal 3 Liverpool 4
« Reply #72 on: August 19, 2016, 02:56:38 AM »
/snip

Great post mate, and I agree he really wasn´t at fault for any of the goals at all. Although I doubt anybody saves that free kick, the spin and pace on the ball were horrible to deal with. Some might have got fingers on it though.

My problem with Migs is that he is the wrong goalkeeper for a Klopp. He seems to want a goalkeeper who will play off his line, take more risks coming for crosses, release the ball early to try to hit sides in the transition to defence.

I said as much when Karius signed. He won´t save any of the goals that Migs is letting in because that isn´t Migs problem. His problem is he doesn´t bet on himself. We can see that he is being encouraged to take more risks. He wandered off his line on Sunday. That diving punch. That throw out to Henderson. Unfortunately, Ramsey almost lobbed him and the throw put Henderson in trouble and could have cost a goal. The punch was great though. I don´t think a player can learn to be that different sort of keeper. You either play like ter Stegen, Pepe, Vorm, Lloris.... or you play like Hart, Begovic etc.

Germany seems to be the production line for these young, brave, risky taking keepers at the moment. Neuer being the cream of the crop of course. Glad in Karius, we have one who seems destined for big things too as watching Migs try to be something he isn´t would be worse than watching him be what he is. Even if he wants to hold the ball for 20 seconds before releasing it :D
Gonna stay behind at work and wait to see what happens.

I am betting some split arse and crying.

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Re: Round Table: Arsenal 3 Liverpool 4
« Reply #73 on: August 19, 2016, 06:04:45 AM »
Your entire argument appears to be "I´ve never heard of this, it wasn´t needed in the past = it´s irrelevant or made up shite"

Your evidence for what needs to happen is based on your 45 years watching Liverpool whereas the evidence you need is the 14 years of Klopp as a manager in the Bundesliga.

Klopp won´t build a Shanks, or a Paisley, or a Dalglish or a Rafa Liverpool side. He will build a Klopp one. Based on how he views football and what he believes each role in the team needs. That means brave, confident, risk taking players, a physically imposing holding midfielder. An explosive full back. A runner in midfield who can link play and turn on the ball. Players willing to attack the box from all angles, Players who are capable of exploiting the half spaces and switching play between them (this is Coutinho, he isn´t a wide player. We don´t need one). Forwards who will vacate the central position leaving space to be attacked by runners.

If you watch how Klopp´s sides worked at Dortmund, you will see what he will be aiming to achieve here. What players he targets for each position and you can deduce why. It won´t look like anything we have seen before at Liverpool. It doesn´t make it wrong. Just different.

He will build his Liverpool team, he's not building Dortmund 2.0. Ridiculous concept that he has only one type of player for each particular position.

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Re: Round Table: Arsenal 3 Liverpool 4
« Reply #74 on: August 19, 2016, 08:15:41 AM »
Great post mate, and I agree he really wasn´t at fault for any of the goals at all. Although I doubt anybody saves that free kick, the spin and pace on the ball were horrible to deal with. Some might have got fingers on it though.

My problem with Migs is that he is the wrong goalkeeper for a Klopp. He seems to want a goalkeeper who will play off his line, take more risks coming for crosses, release the ball early to try to hit sides in the transition to defence.

I said as much when Karius signed. He won´t save any of the goals that Migs is letting in because that isn´t Migs problem. His problem is he doesn´t bet on himself. We can see that he is being encouraged to take more risks. He wandered off his line on Sunday. That diving punch. That throw out to Henderson. Unfortunately, Ramsey almost lobbed him and the throw put Henderson in trouble and could have cost a goal. The punch was great though. I don´t think a player can learn to be that different sort of keeper. You either play like ter Stegen, Pepe, Vorm, Lloris.... or you play like Hart, Begovic etc.

Germany seems to be the production line for these young, brave, risky taking keepers at the moment. Neuer being the cream of the crop of course. Glad in Karius, we have one who seems destined for big things too as watching Migs try to be something he isn´t would be worse than watching him be what he is. Even if he wants to hold the ball for 20 seconds before releasing it :D

Totally agree he would like a different style keeper. But if Mignolet gets a bit of confidence and keeps playing well, I'm happy to have him competing.

At the very least he's the best backup on the league imo.

EDIT: This is the exact reason I like this thread. There's far less mindless bashing and scapegoating.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2016, 08:23:08 AM by Frizzo »

Offline Red_Mist

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Re: Round Table: Arsenal 3 Liverpool 4
« Reply #75 on: August 19, 2016, 08:41:53 AM »
Great OP and replies.

Nice warm afterglow all week after that win. Always good to win on the opening day. Great to win away on the opening day. Fantastic to do it against one of our main rivals in every sense of the word, and best of all brilliant to do it with four goals of the highest calibre.

And a nervy last 10 mins just to remind ourselves we're watching Liverpool. Although as Yorky pointed out, it didn't feel particularly nervy. Yes, the clock did that thing it always does and a minute suddenly isn't a minute anymore, but is actually four sets of 15 seconds, each of which lasts exactly a minute. But it felt controlled with no real causes for alarm.

All in all, tremendous result and performance.

Offline BabuYagu

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Re: Round Table: Arsenal 3 Liverpool 4
« Reply #76 on: August 19, 2016, 01:15:36 PM »
He will build his Liverpool team, he's not building Dortmund 2.0. Ridiculous concept that he has only one type of player for each particular position.
His tactical setup will certainly evolve and different (I dare say even better) players will end up being here as he can now afford the players he wants rather than mostly shopping in the bottom 14 sides in the Bundesliga and outside the top European leagues (bar has last side he built there of course where he started being able to spend big).

However, it will evolve from the starting point of what he knows and what he believes in terms of football. He wants to press, counter press and using pressing traps. Those three things alone means he needs an aggressive, mobile forward at least one explosive fullback and an aerially dominant DM (to lay a pressing trap). He will also need intelligent pressers of the ball in the AM positions who can either press the ball, the man or the passing lanes.

Now he isn´t just going to bin off the idea of pressing. Which means he will need certain players in key roles to make it work. It was the thing that gave him the competitive edge he had in Dortmund. Likewise how he wants his side to attack probably won´t change either. Overloads, using the half spaces, combination play, 3rd man runs etc. And again - to play that way requires certain types of players.

So yes, he will build a Liverpool side. But I believe it will look a lot more like Dortmund than anything we have seen before in Liverpool. Simply because all the tactical elements he is trying to build into our game asks certain key qualities of players for each role. When you play a player who doesn´t fit the role (Benteke, Skrtel, Mignolet) then the player will struggle to adapt or worse still, the system will collapse.

Of course some players who I don´t think fit are adjusting their game. Coutinho being the best example. He likes to drop out of the box and be our playmaker and long range threat. However, Klopp wants players there to attack the box. As we saw at the weekend, it seems Coutinho is working hard to build this into his game. As he has already benefited from this by scoring, he´ll be eager to do it even more in future. Klopp has also made a tactical adjustment to accommodate this. Now we have Wijnaldum who will go past Coutinho and attack the box while Coutinho takes up a position more like that of a center midfielder when it happens. But there are some things players will struggle to add to their game (Henderson unlikely to become dominant in the air for example) and there are things we cannot adjust tactically to make it work (a lazy or static forward). We either have to give up on the idea of pressing and laying pressing traps - or find players who allow us to do so effectively. If that means he ends up building Dortmund 2.0 as you call it, then that´s what will happen. Players will end up suiting the system. The player changes or we change the players. The system won´t be radically overhauled.
Gonna stay behind at work and wait to see what happens.

I am betting some split arse and crying.

Offline PAULG

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Re: Round Table: Arsenal 3 Liverpool 4
« Reply #77 on: August 19, 2016, 06:21:55 PM »
Sharp up top, unable to 'shut up shop'.
Coutinho is a magician, not a technician.
Could have scored 6 on another day
just glad we got 3 points & Sadio Mane
i shall not bear false witness against thy neighbour, i was your neighbour, so now you're a danger.

Online LiamG

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Re: Round Table: Arsenal 3 Liverpool 4
« Reply #78 on: August 19, 2016, 06:37:23 PM »