Author Topic: Roberto Firmino  (Read 892099 times)

Online markmywords

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Re: Roberto Firmino
« Reply #8480 on: November 12, 2018, 02:02:12 AM »
What were the other 4 other than that sweet combination with Salah in the first half?  Is there a website which details the quality of chance created?

Don't know

But there was the one he played thru for robbo in the 2nd half

And one where he miscontrolled it and it fell to mane in the 1st half, apart from that and the one you said I don't know

Our lack of a high press this season plays away from his strengths

Offline kcbworth

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Re: Roberto Firmino
« Reply #8481 on: November 12, 2018, 02:58:51 AM »
Shows so much individual brilliance but this season it doesn't seem to be decisive all that often. Really it's only been Shaqiri, Robertson, and earlier on Milner that have really shown consistent decisiveness/end product really (and some good finishing by Mane). Fingers cross Firmino clicks soon

Offline BrandoLFC

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Re: Roberto Firmino
« Reply #8482 on: November 12, 2018, 03:21:04 AM »
Analytics point out our midfield is shit when it comes to offensive output and it's affecting overall team performance.
LFC as a club spends a shit load of money on employing people to do analytics and our DoF got his job partly through analytics.
Big surprise in that one of our best and most multi faceted players is currently playing almost as a midfielder right?  Based on all the current comments I guess Firmino is just off-form and not trying to plug a hole we have, nope nothing of the sort.

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Re: Roberto Firmino
« Reply #8483 on: November 12, 2018, 08:52:11 AM »
What were the other 4 other than that sweet combination with Salah in the first half?  Is there a website which details the quality of chance created?

Yeah this one does - https://understat.com/player/482. According to them, it was his 12th best creative performance in the league for Liverpool. However, that was down to one high value chance and four low value ones - two high value ones but nothing else would've been better, for instance.

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Re: Roberto Firmino
« Reply #8484 on: November 12, 2018, 09:55:22 AM »
Where exactly is the struggle?

Its amazing people can watch Bobby this season and think there is nothing wrong with his performances so far.

He is nowhere near the high standards he's set before. Absolutely nowhere near. And personally, I think it's because we aren't pressing as much as a team.
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Offline LallanaInPyjamas

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Re: Roberto Firmino
« Reply #8485 on: November 12, 2018, 10:04:46 AM »
I'd sooner see him and Salah reverse roles. Let Bobby occupy defenders and allow Salah to make movements a bit later so that he can be continuously more decisive.

If you switched him and Salah, Salah would be more involved in the build-up phase and forced into making movements earlier, not later.

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Re: Roberto Firmino
« Reply #8486 on: November 12, 2018, 10:21:59 AM »
He needs a goal asap. I miss his smile.

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Re: Roberto Firmino
« Reply #8487 on: November 12, 2018, 11:10:22 AM »
Yeah this one does - https://understat.com/player/482. According to them, it was his 12th best creative performance in the league for Liverpool. However, that was down to one high value chance and four low value ones - two high value ones but nothing else would've been better, for instance.

Yeah I watched the highlights on MOTD and one of the chances was just a square pass to Shaqiri who then moved forward and hit one from 20 yards, so I'm wary of judging his contribution on chances created.
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Offline Geezer08

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Re: Roberto Firmino
« Reply #8488 on: November 12, 2018, 11:10:32 AM »
Need him back in the false 9 position. In my opinion Salah is also much more effective cutting in from the right.

There is too much experimentation at the moment for my liking.

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Re: Roberto Firmino
« Reply #8489 on: November 12, 2018, 11:12:18 AM »
Firmino needs a bit of bench time. His place in the team is too secure.

The front 3 need a bit of shaking up. I would have Shaqiri, Salah and Mane tomorrow and

Fabinho, Keita, Wijnaldum behind them

Eh?

People tend to get mixed up between end results and performances. Watch Firmino closely and you'll see that he is doing all the right things. The end results are not there as often but that may have to do with the way the team is setup.

Firmino's control is second to none and he often plays a pass that many others wouldn't see.

He's part of the first team and although we'd all like to see more, we are 2nd in the league behind a team that scores for fun.
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Re: Roberto Firmino
« Reply #8490 on: November 12, 2018, 11:13:44 AM »
Need him back in the false 9 position. In my opinion Salah is also much more effective cutting in from the right.

There is too much experimentation at the moment for my liking.

And I think that's the problem. Salah has been moved more centrally and forcing Firmino to drop a bit deeper. I'd prefer to see Salah playing wide and then coming in.
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Offline Kelvinlfc

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Re: Roberto Firmino
« Reply #8491 on: November 12, 2018, 11:14:27 AM »
Covered the most ground yesterday and didn't really seem to do much on the ball

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Re: Roberto Firmino
« Reply #8492 on: November 12, 2018, 11:18:32 AM »
Eh?

People tend to get mixed up between end results and performances. Watch Firmino closely and you'll see that he is doing all the right things. The end results are not there as often but that may have to do with the way the team is setup.

Firmino's control is second to none and he often plays a pass that many others wouldn't see.

He's part of the first team and although we'd all like to see more, we are 2nd in the league behind a team that scores for fun.

True that. Firmino's first touch is ridiculous. It's not the passes that he picks out that I like but the way he does it, loads of little rolls, toe pokes, right into the stride of others. Yeah he's played better but he's quality, the goals will come soon enough.

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Re: Roberto Firmino
« Reply #8493 on: November 12, 2018, 11:24:32 AM »
Its amazing people can watch Bobby this season and think there is nothing wrong with his performances so far.

He is nowhere near the high standards he's set before. Absolutely nowhere near. And personally, I think it's because we aren't pressing as much as a team.
Its also amazing that people are so eager to criticize him they can't even wait for his actual bad game to do it. If Mane, Mo and Robbo take their chances we'd be talking about Bobby's excellent performance.

Offline Wool

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Re: Roberto Firmino
« Reply #8494 on: November 12, 2018, 11:31:01 AM »
Its also amazing that people are so eager to criticize him they can't even wait for his actual bad game to do it. If Mane, Mo and Robbo take their chances we'd be talking about Bobby's excellent performance.
What wait? He's had countless bad games in the last few months. If anything people have gone out of their way to not criticise him whereas the Salah and Mane threads have been getting bumped after every single game.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2018, 11:50:25 AM by Wool »

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Re: Roberto Firmino
« Reply #8495 on: November 12, 2018, 11:47:33 AM »
What wait? He's has countless bad games in the last few months. If anything people have gone out of their way to not criticise him whereas the Salah and Mane threads have been getting bumped after every single game.

Yeah, odd comment. Bobby, up to last week really, has remained largely unscathed from criticism when every other midfielder/attacker has taken pelters. He's barely got going this season.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2018, 11:50:11 AM by Dench57 »
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Re: Roberto Firmino
« Reply #8496 on: November 12, 2018, 11:52:14 AM »
Its also amazing that people are so eager to criticize him they can't even wait for his actual bad game to do it. If Mane, Mo and Robbo take their chances we'd be talking about Bobby's excellent performance.

Oh, stop being so on the defensive ffs. I haven't criticised him. I made an observation. He hasn't been playing as well as he can do. And he hasn't been anywhere near the high standards he has set in the past. And that is a fact.

I still love him as a player though.
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Re: Roberto Firmino
« Reply #8497 on: November 12, 2018, 03:41:55 PM »
Gone off the boil.

On one hand I would really want him to have a rest but he could not play himself into renewing an understanding with Mane and Salah if he wasn't playing.

I wonder if a change of formation will refresh him a little bit. Maybe as an advance midfielder and get him playing in Mane's position.

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Re: Roberto Firmino
« Reply #8498 on: November 12, 2018, 03:59:40 PM »
Personally I'd just keep playing him. He's still contributing, just not on the level we know he can, and don't think him being on the bench for a while changes that. Let him play his way through it.

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Re: Roberto Firmino
« Reply #8499 on: November 12, 2018, 04:11:32 PM »
Personally though he got better as the game went on yesterday - probably due to Fulham tiring, losing a bit of shape, space opening up and him drifting around a lot more.

Might have had something to do from my perspective from the left side in the second half, but it felt like during that period he was drifting out there a lot more and therefore getting a bit more space, a few more touches and having more influence. Aside from the goals a little bit of magic on two occasions from Bobby were probably the parts of the game that made me smile/laugh the most, one little trick and rabona on the left in particular.

I wouldn't say he's been BAD this season, but I haven't seem him hit the heights of last season yet. I think  there's been games where he's had next to no space, where team-mates movement/sharpness/own form has let his play down and there's definitely been games, or periods within games where his usually exemplary first touch has been wayward.

We still look at our most dangerous when he gets the ball in that advanced 8/10 position and runs at the defence. It usually, like yesterday, leads to one or two players dragging defenders about and him spotting the ball into the space that's left - see Robbo's shot that was saved in second half.

No concerns here, he remains in the top 3 or 4 most important players for this team, if not higher. I think he'll get better and better as the season goes on and confidence grows.

Fair to point out and talk about performances not hitting last years yet, as long as the good moments are included for balance as well.

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Re: Roberto Firmino
« Reply #8500 on: November 12, 2018, 04:27:52 PM »
Gone off the boil.

On one hand I would really want him to have a rest but he could not play himself into renewing an understanding with Mane and Salah if he wasn't playing.

I wonder if a change of formation will refresh him a little bit. Maybe as an advance midfielder and get him playing in Mane's position.

we have been playing in a change of formation and he has been playing as an advanced midfielder (a '10' in a 4-2-3-1 rather than a false '9' in a 4-3-3).

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Re: Roberto Firmino
« Reply #8501 on: November 12, 2018, 04:30:12 PM »
I think as part of the front 3 he's the least of the my concerns.

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Re: Roberto Firmino
« Reply #8502 on: November 12, 2018, 04:49:31 PM »
I think as part of the front 3 he's the least of the my concerns.

Opposite for me. When he plays well, Mane and especially Salah are more effective.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2018, 05:02:25 PM by Dench57 »
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Re: Roberto Firmino
« Reply #8503 on: November 12, 2018, 05:12:25 PM »
Opposite for me. When he plays well, Mane and especially Salah are more effective. The same can't be said in return.

Agree to disagree, I think Bob has been decent so far this season with what he's been providing. He's not been at the level he was last season but then again neither has Mane or Salah (I don't think that's related to how Bob is performing).
« Last Edit: November 12, 2018, 05:38:08 PM by Chakan »

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Re: Roberto Firmino
« Reply #8504 on: November 12, 2018, 06:08:51 PM »
Agree to disagree, I think Bob has been decent so far this season with what he's been providing. He's not been at the level he was last season but then again neither has Mane or Salah (I don't think that's related to how Bob is performing).

Problem is the lack of a lock-picker in midfield. We've had Lallana, Coutinho and Oxlade Chamberlain in that role since Bobby took up the false nine, but at the moment, we don't have anyone for that job. So we are either dropping him back into that role himself, like yesterday, or he is being forced to drop into those spaces because we don't have any movement in there.
Either way, it means he is playing deeper, and getting fewer chances to go crazy on the edge of the box.
Either we sign a new AM, adapt Shaqiri into that role, or we will need to keep playing Bobby there. Keita is many things, but he's not really the man to play that role, for me.

Swapping Salah and Bobby, as I have seen a few suggest, doesn't seem to achieve anything other than moving our main goal threat further away from goal. Mo is no more an effective 10 than Bobby, unless I am missing something?
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Re: Roberto Firmino
« Reply #8505 on: November 12, 2018, 06:13:12 PM »
Problem is the lack of a lock-picker in midfield. We've had Lallana, Coutinho and Oxlade Chamberlain in that role since Bobby took up the false nine, but at the moment, we don't have anyone for that job. So we are either dropping him back into that role himself, like yesterday, or he is being forced to drop into those spaces because we don't have any movement in there.
Either way, it means he is playing deeper, and getting fewer chances to go crazy on the edge of the box.
Either we sign a new AM, adapt Shaqiri into that role, or we will need to keep playing Bobby there. Keita is many things, but he's not really the man to play that role, for me.

Swapping Salah and Bobby, as I have seen a few suggest, doesn't seem to achieve anything other than moving our main goal threat further away from goal. Mo is no more an effective 10 than Bobby, unless I am missing something?

Agree with that wholeheartedly. I'd love to see Shaquiri in that role though. I think he could provide a lot of what we are missing in the midfield. Lallana right now is a hindrance and slows everything down, Shaquiri is the opposite and he generally makes smart runs with very quick passing and decision making.

Ox provided a lot of burst and penetration from midfield last year, it's a pity we miss him so much.

I'm not a huge fan of switch Bobby and Salah and I think Bobby in the middle and Salah out wide cutting in has a proven success rate with us. I'm also not a fan of switching Mo and Mane around, but we do need something other than Bobby coming deep and restricting his play for us. Leave him where he was last year.

Offline Bjornar

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Re: Roberto Firmino
« Reply #8506 on: November 12, 2018, 08:09:54 PM »
He is nowhere near the high standards he's set before. Absolutely nowhere near.

He´s close, but not quite there. Just like this time last season.

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Re: Roberto Firmino
« Reply #8507 on: November 12, 2018, 09:55:16 PM »
Coming far too deep and keeps running into dead ends. Not sure what the answer is, but he looks like he needs a rest, whether that will revive him I'm unsure. Over to you trainy-coachy-managy people.
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Re: Roberto Firmino
« Reply #8508 on: November 12, 2018, 09:59:45 PM »
Coming far too deep and keeps running into dead ends. Not sure what the answer is, but he looks like he needs a rest, whether that will revive him I'm unsure. Over to you trainy-coachy-managy people.


He is trying more than he need to,needs to make his area smaller so he starts his move in the danger zone.
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Re: Roberto Firmino
« Reply #8509 on: November 12, 2018, 10:34:18 PM »
Coming far too deep and keeps running into dead ends.

Seems like a very trainy-coachy-managy observation? My guess is the manager doesn´t agree with it. If there´s one player Klopp trusts to stick to his tactical instructions it´s Firmino, if recent history is any guide.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2018, 10:57:35 PM by Bjornar »
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Re: Roberto Firmino
« Reply #8510 on: November 12, 2018, 11:28:17 PM »
If you switched him and Salah, Salah would be more involved in the build-up phase and forced into making movements earlier, not later.

Not really. Watch how Heynkes used Müller at Bayern - especially during the 2013 season they crushed everybody. He's involved in the build in the sense he's playing quick one touch but Mandzukic is occupying the defenders and Robbery occupied the fullbacks that allowed acres of free space for him to break into the area late.

It allows him the the freedom of a second striker but in a system that is tactically disciplined. He's not just our best goalscorer he's also one of our best creator in the areas that matter. I just don't see the point of reducing him to being a 2000s Owen and have Firmino suffer for playing too deep when he's actually better at playing against defenders now.

You're not depriving Salah of being the unorthodox striker he was in the 433 you're just getting him in an area where we can get our best players into the team. Plus with a settled Keita and Fabinho it allows for that flex to move back into a 433 with a 10 or with Shaq and Naby acting like a Silva, De Bruyne duo.

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Re: Roberto Firmino
« Reply #8511 on: November 13, 2018, 09:32:54 AM »
I dont think he has been that bad. The quality is absolutely still there as we saw with that chance he created for Mane against Red Star at home and the combination play he had with Salah against Fulham. Just struggling to get on the ball as much.

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Re: Roberto Firmino
« Reply #8512 on: November 13, 2018, 10:11:07 AM »
The problem seems to be with midfield, more so than with Bobby. He is too often in a position where he drops increasingly deep, with two players on his back, tries to manoeuvre some space and release, Mane or Salah. Hopefully once Keita starts playing more, he'll be the one to pick up the ball in tight spaces and carry it forward - leaving Bobby with with a much more befitting task of either playing a quick one-two, final pass or actually dribbling and shooting himself.

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Re: Roberto Firmino
« Reply #8513 on: November 13, 2018, 10:18:14 AM »
I can understand why some people think he should be absolutely benched.

But they play for the opposition and hate being dragged around the pitch.
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Re: Roberto Firmino
« Reply #8514 on: November 13, 2018, 11:51:15 AM »
When you can see big white teeth all the way to Bold Heath
Thaaaaat's Firminooooo
A goal with a flick then a big kung fu kick
Thaaaaat's Firminooooo
When you Nutmeg Camarasa while sitting on you arse-aaaaa
Thaaaat's Firminoooo
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Re: Roberto Firmino
« Reply #8515 on: November 18, 2018, 03:18:29 PM »
Interesting fact about Firmino - he has only scored 4 goals since Chamberlain was injured. Of those 4 goals:-

1 came with Keita on the pitch (Spurs)
2 came with Shaqiri on the pitch (Red Star & PSG)
1 was from a corner (Leicester)

It seems he can either be the link between back & front OR an effective player in the final third - he can't be both though.


https://twitter.com/MarkTaylor0/status/1064122758227988480

Look at Firmino at the top here this season. Everything needs to go through him to connect the components in our system - but this means he has much less impact in the final 3rd and leaves Salah somewhat isolated.

https://twitter.com/babuyagu/status/1064153912423444480
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Re: Roberto Firmino
« Reply #8516 on: November 18, 2018, 04:14:29 PM »
Interesting fact about Firmino - he has only scored 4 goals since Chamberlain was injured. Of those 4 goals:-

1 came with Keita on the pitch (Spurs)
2 came with Shaqiri on the pitch (Red Star & PSG)
1 was from a corner (Leicester)

It seems he can either be the link between back & front OR an effective player in the final third - he can't be both though.


https://twitter.com/MarkTaylor0/status/1064122758227988480

Look at Firmino at the top here this season. Everything needs to go through him to connect the components in our system - but this means he has much less impact in the final 3rd and leaves Salah somewhat isolated.

https://twitter.com/babuyagu/status/1064153912423444480

Is Mane missing from the data in terms of from? Seems weird he is only on as a passing receiver in the duos

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Re: Roberto Firmino
« Reply #8517 on: November 24, 2018, 04:55:24 PM »
Bobby my man!!

First goal is exactly why he is invaluable to us. We've been waiting for the pass of outstanding quality to open up a stubborn defence the entire game and Bobby delivered even with not one of his best games.

But it's almost pointless to play him as a 10 if there's nobody to get the ball to him. Gini and Hendo in particular never looked capable or interested to make that pass to Bobby early enough - I haven't seen one single pass of this kind today. It'll be a conundrum for Klopp going forward.

Offline farawayred

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Re: Roberto Firmino
« Reply #8518 on: November 24, 2018, 05:02:00 PM »
Bobby upfront is great! Seems we are more efficient that way. Glad he's got his goal! But he looked, so it doesn't count.
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Re: Roberto Firmino
« Reply #8519 on: November 24, 2018, 05:25:32 PM »
Bobby upfront is great! Seems we are more efficient that way. Glad he's got his goal! But he looked, so it doesn't count.
He had a good few peeks at lino before celebrating if he noticed that. He didn’t so it stood! Who said all calls are against us  :)
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