Author Topic: Brexit  (Read 218562 times)

Online ShakaHislop

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #6680 on: Yesterday at 08:59:35 PM »

Online west_london_red

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #6681 on: Yesterday at 09:23:56 PM »
Caroline Flint continues her reinvention as one of Labour's biggest Eurosceptics.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/868856/European-Union-countries-France-Brexit-news-Theresa-May-Macron-Merkel-Brussels-UK

Sheís cack handed in the way she puts it across but I donít think sheís totally off the mark either. The more the EU goes down the integration and federal route, the greater the suppression of the nation state and the further you pull the elastic away from that the more violently it pulls back the other way, if not overshooting where it originally was. Brexit was the first manifestation of this.

Online oldfordie

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #6682 on: Yesterday at 09:24:47 PM »
Channel 4 news again, this time a former Polish foreign minister taking 5 minutes to explain the birds and the bees for a British audience. Thought it was very insightful and worth taking in the perspective of someone looking in to the British bubble.

https://www.channel4.com/news/radek-sikorski-eu-would-probably-prefer-corbyn-as-pm
In years to come people cheering this Brexit on will look back in disgust at the way parliament handled Brexit.

"In my view the Northern Ireland border problem is insolvable because you have to be in the customs union."
Interviewer . the British government claimed they've got this sorted out don't they but we don't know what that is.
"Yes but they are still learning how the EU actually works, a year ago key members of the British government didn't know the difference between the single market and the customs union". :shocked
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 10:39:34 PM by oldfordie »
"It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they've have been fooled" Mark Twain on Brexit.

Offline Classycara

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #6683 on: Today at 12:25:34 AM »
Sheís cack handed in the way she puts it across but I donít think sheís totally off the mark either. The more the EU goes down the integration and federal route, the greater the suppression of the nation state and the further you pull the elastic away from that the more violently it pulls back the other way, if not overshooting where it originally was. Brexit was the first manifestation of this.

Do you mean only, not first?

As for the suggestion that Brexit came because of increased federalism and suppression of a nation state, do you really believe that?

Wouldn't it be weird for the first/only manifestation of your theory to come from the EU nation with probably the least hint of federal future involvement and least suppressed nation state

Offline Sangria

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #6684 on: Today at 12:35:28 AM »
Do you mean only, not first?

As for the suggestion that Brexit came because of increased federalism and suppression of a nation state, do you really believe that?

Wouldn't it be weird for the first/only manifestation of your theory to come from the EU nation with probably the least hint of federal future involvement and least suppressed nation state

WLR was making the case for Brexit prior to the referendum.
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Offline Libertine

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #6685 on: Today at 09:42:56 AM »
Caroline Flint continues her reinvention as one of Labour's biggest Eurosceptics.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/868856/European-Union-countries-France-Brexit-news-Theresa-May-Macron-Merkel-Brussels-UK

Extraordinary. Exactly the kind of thing Frottage has been saying for years.
interested in adventure travel?

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Offline killer_heels

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #6686 on: Today at 10:22:58 AM »
Flint is like Ummuna, Kinnock, Kendall and Burnham. All those supposed moderates who are happy to turn on immigration and link them directly to social problems.

To think that cohort was deemed the senisble option. Im glad that their powers in the party is dilluted.

Offline Classycara

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #6687 on: Today at 11:10:24 AM »
Flint is like Ummuna, Kinnock, Kendall and Burnham. All those supposed moderates who are happy to turn on immigration and link them directly to social problems.

To think that cohort was deemed the senisble option. Im glad that their powers in the party is dilluted.

I only recall Burnham doing that, which you've frequently cited. When have the other three?

Online west_london_red

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #6688 on: Today at 11:28:10 AM »
WLR was making the case for Brexit prior to the referendum.

I actually voted Remain in the end, but it was a very reluctant Remain.

Online west_london_red

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #6689 on: Today at 11:45:00 AM »
Do you mean only, not first?

As for the suggestion that Brexit came because of increased federalism and suppression of a nation state, do you really believe that?

Wouldn't it be weird for the first/only manifestation of your theory to come from the EU nation with probably the least hint of federal future involvement and least suppressed nation state

Itís only the only one today, whether itís the the only one in 5 or 10 years time weíll have to see, but there seems to be more talk of federalism recently among EU leaders, not that I would expect the move to a more federal EU to happen overnight.

Online oldfordie

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #6690 on: Today at 12:00:49 PM »
Itís only the only one today, whether itís the the only one in 5 or 10 years time weíll have to see, but there seems to be more talk of federalism recently among EU leaders, not that I would expect the move to a more federal EU to happen overnight.
Oh Great, not only do we have to fight to expose the lies etc now we have to fight the conspiracy theories.
"It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they've have been fooled" Mark Twain on Brexit.

Online west_london_red

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #6691 on: Today at 12:13:33 PM »
Oh Great, not only do we have to fight to expose the lies etc now we have to fight the conspiracy theories.


Whereís the conspiracy theory exactly?

Offline Trada

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #6692 on: Today at 12:24:33 PM »
Tories happy May came back from the EU with a pat on the head a tickle behind the ear & told to fetch the EU bill in 2 months or they will rub her nose in it.

Offline killer_heels

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #6693 on: Today at 12:31:53 PM »
I only recall Burnham doing that, which you've frequently cited. When have the other three?

When talking about this report Umunna said immigration has caused social issues. https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/sep/25/chuka-umunna-integrate-immigrants-so-they-dont-lead-parallel-lives

Flint also loves to bash the scaremongering tone in her debates on immigration
http://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/government-urged-to-clarify-immigration-stance-for-postbrexit-uk-35434639.html

Thats of course following Milliband with his immigration rhetori when he contested the election. Basically these so called moderates have done more than anyone with bringing the ‘issue’ of immigration forward. Personally, i am glad these people are now marginalised and have no power left in the party.
« Last Edit: Today at 12:33:35 PM by killer_heels »

Offline Sangria

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #6694 on: Today at 12:32:23 PM »
Itís only the only one today, whether itís the the only one in 5 or 10 years time weíll have to see, but there seems to be more talk of federalism recently among EU leaders, not that I would expect the move to a more federal EU to happen overnight.

One might read that as the remaining EU members having greater appetite for greater integration now that the main obstacle to it has decided to leave the scene.
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http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=267148.msg8032258#msg8032258

Online west_london_red

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #6695 on: Today at 12:46:18 PM »
One might read that as the remaining EU members having greater appetite for greater integration now that the main obstacle to it has decided to leave the scene.

The UK was one blocker, however I would guess that the EU nations of Eastern Europe might not be so welcoming of greater integration either, although they may be easier to convince then the UK being net beneficieries of EU funding.

Offline Classycara

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #6696 on: Today at 12:51:59 PM »
When talking about this report Umunna said immigration has caused social issues. https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/sep/25/chuka-umunna-integrate-immigrants-so-they-dont-lead-parallel-lives

Flint also loves to bash the scaremongering tone in her debates on immigration
http://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/government-urged-to-clarify-immigration-stance-for-postbrexit-uk-35434639.html

Thats of course following Milliband with his immigration rhetori when he contested the election. Basically these so called moderates have done more than anyone with bringing the ‘issue’ of immigration forward. Personally, i am glad these people are now marginalised and have no power left in the party.

I asked you for examples on Kinnock, Umunna and Kendall, and you only found one (and it's not an example of what you said, you massively misrepresented him). In fact only four paragraphs down in the article you sent it describes what you just did.

He said that efforts need to be made by everyone to ensure immigrants play a role in society. For the sake of immigrants and non-immigrants. And he says this as the child of immigrants. You're allowed to not like him, which you frequently make clear, but don't make him out to be a xenophobe after you've decided you don't like him just to try to justify your dislike. It's dishonest.

Would be interested to see if you've also misrepresented Kendall and Kinnock.

Since you're glad they're now apparently marginalised, because of your dislike of their immigration comments, can you provide an example of someone whose immigration views in Labour that you do like? Would be interesting context to find out what you actually think, and if you rate any of their views, or if you just hate it all to varying degrees.
« Last Edit: Today at 12:54:10 PM by Classycara »

Online oldfordie

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #6697 on: Today at 12:56:49 PM »
Whereís the conspiracy theory exactly?
The United States of Europe.
"It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they've have been fooled" Mark Twain on Brexit.

Online west_london_red

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #6698 on: Today at 01:21:09 PM »
The United States of Europe.

No one mentioned the United States of Europe, but letís not dwell on that for now.

Do you see the EU in its current guise as the end structure? There will be no further integration, powers or responsibilities for the EU and itís structures over its citizens lives?


Online oldfordie

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #6699 on: Today at 01:29:13 PM »
No one mentioned the United States of Europe, but letís not dwell on that for now.

Do you see the EU in its current guise as the end structure? There will be no further integration, powers or responsibilities for the EU and itís structures over its citizens lives?
Federalism meaning direct rule from Brussels, why use the word Federalism?
You will have to help me here, in what way do you expect the EU to have more control over our lives?
Your making a argument that the EU have sinister intentions, based on what.
"It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they've have been fooled" Mark Twain on Brexit.

Offline Wilmo

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #6700 on: Today at 01:35:12 PM »
I asked you for examples on Kinnock, Umunna and Kendall, and you only found one (and it's not an example of what you said, you massively misrepresented him). In fact only four paragraphs down in the article you sent it describes what you just did.

He said that efforts need to be made by everyone to ensure immigrants play a role in society. For the sake of immigrants and non-immigrants. And he says this as the child of immigrants. You're allowed to not like him, which you frequently make clear, but don't make him out to be a xenophobe after you've decided you don't like him just to try to justify your dislike. It's dishonest.

Would be interested to see if you've also misrepresented Kendall and Kinnock.

Since you're glad they're now apparently marginalised, because of your dislike of their immigration comments, can you provide an example of someone whose immigration views in Labour that you do like? Would be interesting context to find out what you actually think, and if you rate any of their views, or if you just hate it all to varying degrees.

Stephen Kinnock (I assume that's who we're talking about) feels strongly enough about the social impact of immigration that he wrote two opinion pieces recently in the guardian about it:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jan/07/labour-must-introduce-fair-immigration-system

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/sep/19/cure-divided-britain-managed-immigration-work-permits

"But people are worried about more than pressures on jobs, wages and housing: they are anxious about culture, identity and the rate of change of communities."

Here is a quote from a speech he gave in response to Paul Nutall being voted UKIP leader:

"It is about having a system in place which says Ďweíve done an analysis of what our economy needs and weíre going to have a system in place which gets us to those numbers'.

"Now, those numbers may well be below where we are now, but if on a sector-by-sector basis you come to the view that actually weíve got a gap here which canít be filled by indigenous British workers, we need that much immigration.

"Itís about having the immigration that the country needs, which is also able to be absorbed within our public services to make sure that we have an immigration system that works for all."

https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/home-affairs/immigration/news/81354/excl-clive-lewis-attacks-stephen-kinnocks-potentially

As for Liz Kendall, here are some quotes from a BBC Newsnight Hustings in 2015:

ďWe need strong rules, people are angry and concerned about immigration, theyíre angry about people trying to get into this country illegally, scrambling onto lorries from Calais,Ē she said.

ďIf you come here legally from Europe you should come to work, and not claim benefits, and put in before you take out.

ďYou should respect the community you live in and our culture and for people outside Europe we need a strict points-based system like they have in Australia.Ē

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/liz-kendall-says-she-wants-an-australian-style-points-based-immigration-system-10328214.html

In fairness, she did qualify this with the following:

'ďI will not be the Labour leader that tried to out-Ukip Ukip, or pretends to people thereís some kind of button we can push to rewind the country and go back to a world that isnít coming back,Ē she said.

She added that her constituency had seen ďhuge benefitsĒ from immigration and that she would not turn back the clock.' (from the article). Whether you find that qualification convincing is up to you, I guess - for me, there's a few too many dog-whistles hidden within her rhetoric.

Now, whatever you think of these comments and viewpoints, it's undeniable that killer_heels wasn't incorrect when they posted:

Flint is like Ummuna, Kinnock, Kendall and Burnham. All those supposed moderates who are happy to turn on immigration and link them directly to social problems.

To think that cohort was deemed the senisble option. Im glad that their powers in the party is dilluted.

They most certainly do link immigration to social problems, although to differing degrees. They are referred to by some as 'moderates' - would you not agree?

Now, there's a fair argument to be had about whether the above are right or justified in linking immigration to social issues, but I can't see where killer-heels has 'misrepresented' anyone.
« Last Edit: Today at 01:41:02 PM by Wilmo »
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Offline killer_heels

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #6701 on: Today at 02:02:29 PM »
I asked you for examples on Kinnock, Umunna and Kendall, and you only found one (and it's not an example of what you said, you massively misrepresented him). In fact only four paragraphs down in the article you sent it describes what you just did.

He said that efforts need to be made by everyone to ensure immigrants play a role in society. For the sake of immigrants and non-immigrants. And he says this as the child of immigrants. You're allowed to not like him, which you frequently make clear, but don't make him out to be a xenophobe after you've decided you don't like him just to try to justify your dislike. It's dishonest.

Would be interested to see if you've also misrepresented Kendall and Kinnock.

Since you're glad they're now apparently marginalised, because of your dislike of their immigration comments, can you provide an example of someone whose immigration views in Labour that you do like? Would be interesting context to find out what you actually think, and if you rate any of their views, or if you just hate it all to varying degrees.

Where did i call any of them a xenophobe?

I like Corbynís comments on immigration. I like the fact that he for ages refuses to commit to reducing immigration.

Online ShakaHislop

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #6702 on: Today at 02:21:23 PM »
Where did i call any of them a xenophobe?

I like Corbynís comments on immigration. I like the fact that he for ages refuses to commit to reducing immigration.

Why is he not backing up his comments with action now that he's in charge, and meekly accepting the end of FOM?

Offline killer_heels

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #6703 on: Today at 02:25:53 PM »
Why is he not backing up his comments with action now that he's in charge, and meekly accepting the end of FOM?

I dont think he has commited to a reduction of immigration. Most people have said immigration must come down, Corbyn hasnt committed to that.

Online ShakaHislop

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #6704 on: Today at 02:34:40 PM »
I dont think he has commited to a reduction of immigration. Most people have said immigration must come down, Corbyn hasnt committed to that.

Well, if he's not bothered about the numbers of people coming into this country - which I'm not convinced by after he said this

Quote
What there wouldnít be is the wholesale importation of underpaid workers from central Europe in order to destroy conditions,
particularly in the construction industry.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/23071701.pdf

why is he happy to let FOM go, particularly when keeping it would leave open better options for our future trading relationship with the EU?

Offline killer_heels

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #6705 on: Today at 02:43:40 PM »
Well, if he's not bothered about the numbers of people coming into this country - which I'm not convinced by after he said this
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/23071701.pdf

why is he happy to let FOM go, particularly when keeping it would leave open better options for our future trading relationship with the EU?

He hasnt linked it to any social issues from what i know.

Im not talking about trading relationships. If anything his stance makes more sense than the others in the Labour party like Kendall and Umunna.

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #6706 on: Today at 02:53:44 PM »
Federalism meaning direct rule from Brussels, why use the word Federalism?
You will have to help me here, in what way do you expect the EU to have more control over our lives?
Your making a argument that the EU have sinister intentions, based on what.

How else would you describe it?

I would expect to see a European defence force, and harmonisation of fiscal policy, so thatís at least two way it will have more control over the lives of EU citizens.

I have my doubts about the EU, the treatment of Greek debt, refugees policy (another area the EU is having a greater role), more recently its passive response to whatís going on in Catalunya, none of that sits right with me personally.

And now I have answered your question, how about you answer the one I asked you? Iíll repeat:

Do you see the EU in its current guise as the end structure? There will be no further integration, powers or responsibilities for the EU and itís structures over its citizens lives?

Online ShakaHislop

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #6707 on: Today at 02:59:01 PM »
He hasnt linked it to any social issues from what i know.

Im not talking about trading relationships. If anything his stance makes more sense than the others in the Labour party like Kendall and Umunna.

He appears to suggest immigrants have destroyed working conditions. Some British workers already believe that and harbour resentment towards immigrants as a result, which is a social problem the Labour leader is contributing to with comments such as that.

Even if you give him the benefit of the doubt, I don't see how him not willing to act on his own personal, positive views on immigration makes him any more noble than Burnham and co. Do you believe the likes of Burnham, Umunna etc genuinely have an issue with FOM, or do you believe they're just talking tough on the topic for electoral purposes? If it's the latter, how is what Corbyn is doing any different and why should he be exempt from the criticism they receive?

Offline killer_heels

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #6708 on: Today at 03:08:34 PM »
He appears to suggest immigrants have destroyed working conditions. Some British workers already believe that and harbour resentment towards immigrants as a result, which is a social problem the Labour leader is contributing to with comments such as that.

Even if you give him the benefit of the doubt, I don't see how him not willing to act on his own personal, positive views on immigration makes him any more noble than Burnham and co. Do you believe the likes of Burnham, Umunna etc genuinely have an issue with FOM, or do you believe they're just talking tough on the topic for electoral purposes? If it's the latter, how is what Corbyn is doing any different and why should he be exempt from the criticism they receive?

He suggested that employers have imported migrants on low wages and hasnt suggested that immigrants have led to any social issues in communities.

Yes, I believe some MP’s like Burnham, Flint etc have genuine issues with immigration and freedom of movement.

Online Jiminy Cricket

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #6709 on: Today at 03:24:06 PM »
He suggested that employers have imported migrants on low wages and hasnt suggested that immigrants have led to any social issues in communities.

Yes, I believe some MPís like Burnham, Flint etc have genuine issues with immigration and freedom of movement.

For clarification, to which Kinnock did you refer a few posts back? I assumed Neil, but another poster suggested you might have meant his son, Stephen. I'm in the US (and have been from way before Stephen became and MP), so what appears obvious to most here might not be the case for me.

Online ShakaHislop

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #6710 on: Today at 03:39:46 PM »
He suggested that employers have imported migrants on low wages and hasnt suggested that immigrants have led to any social issues in communities.

Yes, I believe some MPís like Burnham, Flint etc have genuine issues with immigration and freedom of movement.

If he believes the employers are to blame, why not solely focus on actions towards employers and keep FOM, rather than stop migrants' (and our) free movement?

Online oldfordie

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #6711 on: Today at 03:45:43 PM »
How else would you describe it?

I would expect to see a European defence force, and harmonisation of fiscal policy, so thatís at least two way it will have more control over the lives of EU citizens.

I have my doubts about the EU, the treatment of Greek debt, refugees policy (another area the EU is having a greater role), more recently its passive response to whatís going on in Catalunya, none of that sits right with me personally.

And now I have answered your question, how about you answer the one I asked you? Iíll repeat:

Do you see the EU in its current guise as the end structure? There will be no further integration, powers or responsibilities for the EU and itís structures over its citizens lives?
Can the UK stop this EU army coming about if they remain members.
I can't see it getting off the ground myself but it's all hypothetical.
Harmonization of fiscal policy's, impossible. fiscal policys change as our own economic circumstances change. we have budgets for this reason.
Greece brought their own problems on themselves.
The EU can't win either way, theres a refugee crisis and it's tearing countrys apart. they are getting swamped with refugees, all the governments in the EU work out a plan to share the burden and it's portrayed as the EU ordering us to take in refuges. anyway we did ourselves proud,we kept our sovereignty, we managed to stop children fleeing for their lives a safe haven.
As for your question, how do I know what the future brings but I trust the EUs intentions of trying to make a better world 100 times more than our government.
They ordered us to clean up our shitty beaches and environment. bastards, that cost us money we could have used to give the rich tax cuts. the old jokes about swallowing a turd while swimming are a thing of the past.
Done the same on workers rights and human rights. all cost money the Torys could have saved for tax cuts.
My point is the EUs aim is to make a better world for us all. if you view their intentions as sinister then wait till you see what sort of world we live in 20yrs time compared to the rest of the EU.
"It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they've have been fooled" Mark Twain on Brexit.