Author Topic: End of season round table debate (*)  (Read 72909 times)

Offline Mighty_Red

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Re: End of season round table debate (*)
« Reply #120 on: May 28, 2015, 05:47:37 PM »
Whatever your opinion of Brendan is, whether you are a fan of his or not, you cannot escape from the fact that this season has been a massive disappointment and has ended disastrously where many of the positives we had have disappeared within the last few weeks.

Even though it is quite obvious that 5th is "par" based on our financials, a target of 3rd/4th was easily achievable based on the money we had to spend to replace Luis and the fact that we were well ahead in terms of progress than Utd and on a par with Arsenal (before the Sanchez factor).

Of course, we proceeded to throw away this advantage by buying too many players who were not ready for our first team and our two main gambles (on Balo and Sturridges fitness) both failed. In terms of where we finished, what was most disappointing was not our final position of 6th but our points total of 62 which was 2 pts worse than Moyes Utd managed last season in 7th. This means that no matter how good or bad Utd were, we simply didn't do our jobs properly. 70pts and you could point to falling just short like Everton did last season.

The mitigating factors have been done to death but the main problem we have is how we can fix things for this summer and next season. In that respect, the defeat at home to Utd and the results since then have now cast doubt on Brendan's ability to turn this around. He turned it around from December onwards but it seems that this was a temporary good run of form rather than signs of progress since it looks like 3-4-3 has now been dumped. Had we finished the season strongly like we did in 12/13 then there would be something to build on.

One issue we discussed a few months ago was around the players we send out on loan and I questioned whether we actually had the right strategy for developing young players. For instance, what was/is the individual plan for Alberto, what were our expectations of him, and did we do all we could to help him to settle and progress (well we failed didn't we?).

The same can be said about the players we bought in the summer. We spent £20m on Markovic but what was our expectation of him in his first season? Like the others has said on here, other teams can spend that money because there is no pressure for them to perform, but we don't have to money to do that. I don't think we should be spending so much money on these "potential" players until a) our 1st team is strong enough to not have to depend on them and b) we get our development strategy right.

Whilst our transfer committee is all at sea, it is hard to pin everything on Brendan so I still want him to be given another chance to fashion a winning side. If FSG recognise all of the problems we have and can fix them but retain overall faith in Brendan then he has every chance of doing that. If of course, he is very much part of the problem then he will have to go as part of a major shakeup.

Either way, time is running out to get all these things resolved.
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Offline Zlen

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Re: End of season round table debate (*)
« Reply #121 on: May 28, 2015, 06:00:28 PM »
This season?
It hurts and it's confusing.

This season had a glimmer of hope for a long time, it offered itself to us, it was redeemable, it was there for the taking. We could have mined some gold out of it until the end, but it wasn't to be. Liverpool FC folded - in more ways then one. I would say that we have laid the foundations for this season's shocking endgame and it's bitter aftertaste in two major failings.

First is obviously our approach to transfers last summer, our apparently near-complete lack of competence to properly spot a player, honestly evaluate his worth and seal the deal quickly and decisively. This part of our story made sure we're almost all throughout the season short of both goals and real, battle-hardened experience. It's pretty strange and telling, considering that we needed to replace real, proven, tested quality and real goals, that we chose to do so by a series of punts and gambles. This tells me that our management repeatedly overvalues it's intelligence and knowledge - this arrogance probably sparked by deals for Coutinho and Sturridge (Daniel in my opinion isn't worth very much more to us then what we paid for him - since he hardly plays and this isn't likely to change). So the pride came before the fall - and what a glorious 'thump' we made.

Second mistake was in our flimsy and soft approach to progressing in European competitions. The way we half-heartedly, spiced with a serious stench of rookie-spirit on the bench, dropped out of Champions league, then out of Europa - well, enough to say I think it set us up for the half-hearted and flimsy performances that are crown jewels of this season, like vs Stoke or vs Villa at Wembley. Players got a bit too used to 'Hey, there's another competiton, don't worry' mode. We narrowed our battlefield constantly, shifting the point of focus away whenever we failed to achieve something.

Out of the CL group? It's ok, we'll win the Europa.
Out of the Europa? It's ok, we have the cups and the League?
Out of the cups? It's ok, we're fighting for the CL spot?
Out of the CL spot? It's ok, we're sending Gerrard off.
Sending Gerrard off with a 6-1 humiliation?

It's ok, next season.

Is it really ok though?

Well, I don't think it is and I'm still hoping in the aftermath of this season to see LFC come out swinging wildly, fighting with every bit of it's resources to attract more quality in all areas. Is there a better manager we can get? If there is - get him. Same goes for players, scouts, coaches and whoever else. Raise expectations, raise standards and do it constantly and purposefuly.

About Rodgers a bit.

My biggest concern is this - he stays and has a seriously shit period of games before Christmas.
This is by no means beyond the realm of possibility. What do we do then? Well, whatever we do we'll probably lose that season in any meaningful way. Is it worth the risk? Perhaps, but it isn't an easy answer.
Let's forget the horrible crescendo of this season for a moment. Let's say we cruised with average results to 5th place instead and Rodgers is relatively safe. In my opinion he still starts the next season with very high expectations. He simply must win something and get the CL place next season to secure his job. This is just the way it is - you can't stay in a job like this for four seasons without tangible results. As it stands now, after the way the season played out, he's on an almost impossibly short leash. Combine this heightened level of pressure with his inexperience and I believe that he is almost certain to fail if he stays next season.

But no matter how deep this hole we find ourselves in, replacing Rodgers only really makes sense if we compliment that stroke of deciseveness by getting a better manager and simultaneously fixing the shocking level of incompetence we display when buying and selling players. This is not an easy task and it'll take a significant level of 'raising expectations', probably more then LFC is ready to bother with for now but it remains to be seen.

All I can say is I hope the pile of shit this season is in the end - turns out to be fertilizer for something new and glorious, not just a pile of shit in the middle of the room it is now.

Offline just redk84 will do

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Re: End of season round table debate (*)
« Reply #122 on: May 28, 2015, 07:40:04 PM »
For me this season was watching the bad side of inexperience, whilst we enjoyed the fearless nature of it in the last season.

Balance.

He's been searching for it since the first game and has let the pressures of everything get on top of him. Brendan struggled this year, and he has realised what it truly means to be Liverpool manager through everything this year. To be honest, he's had to face more than most with the departing Steven Gerrard also....

Not an easy first top job by any means.

But that isn't to say that he doesn't deserve criticism....and dammit the players have really not helped him out either, especially some of the more senior members of the squad. The mentality needed for our team to be successful needed to be right from the off, we've massively needed confidence at too many stages of the campaign and have struggled with it.

Now that's not to say there were not positives....the shift to 3 at the back and being solid, 7 clean sheets in a row away from home, two semi finals can be considered decent runs in the cup....actually managing a go at top 4 when it was clear we had no fancied striker too! (Forgetting the reasons why for a second)

Last season was wonderfully clear....we were scoring for fun and enjoying our football. This season was chaotic and we were fighting fire after fire.

If he is to keep his job, I believe we will see the best of Brendan and what sort of manager he really is. His true character for want of a better word!

But I'm afraid he might have alienated too many people....and sometimes there's no coming back from that.

Look. As a standalone season its gone now...football isn't going anywhere Liverpool FC isn't going anywhere and we aren't going anywhere. August comes and we'll be right back there hoping for the best. As a follow up to the season before that hurt.....it did. No doubt.

The hierarchy needs to be stronger. I've wanted a footballing CEO for years now, there must be someone who knows what he's doing guiding us, but maybe that's for another debate.

I hope we sort some issues out this summer. The club is fractured, but we've seen our best reactions from dire situations so we can only hope we see that happen again
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Offline Harinder

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Re: End of season round table debate (*)
« Reply #123 on: May 28, 2015, 08:21:40 PM »
Thank you all for such thoughtful posts. Refreshing and good to see!
Just clicked on the main board and my virus scanner came back with this

"When we visited this site, we found it exhibited one or more risky behaviors."


:lmao

Strip his knighthood https://submissions.epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/47770

Offline Johns_Barn

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Re: End of season round table debate (*)
« Reply #124 on: May 28, 2015, 09:35:48 PM »
I was extremely happy with BR earlier in the season as I felt, if he survived the awful start to the season, he'd be stronger for it. But it appears I totally wrong. He has continually made the same personnel/positional errors over and over. To have been privileged beyond his wildest dreams of being able to spend the sum he did, only to play ZERO forwards against Stoke is soul crushing. The mish mash lineups all season,  Just look at our forward line and let it sink in. It all feels amateurish.

It feels like LFC do not have anywhere near enough football men running football matters and it's scary. It's like watching a load of blokes in a rally car hurtling down a narrow pass but none of them have much, if any, experience of driving a rally car. The crash is inevitable. How bad I don't know but looking at the landscape it will not be nice.

Now I could handle him staying if not for the fear that he will look to throw north of £25 MILLION POUNDS at Aston Villa. I just can't see what kind of football we'll end up playing. I suspect it will look like what we saw when he first turned up...the type he's always envisioned us playing. Yet we didn't see Carroll played in such a role. We didn't see Rickie used either so now I'm just confused. Is he [Brendan] the only one that hated our attacking football last season so much that he'd rip up everything learned - rather than perfect it- and instead go back to the og 4231 dossier that landed him the job?

Added to the above, a defense that doesn't look one iota better yet our accounts are nearly £60 MILLION lighter, we have a team that is so powder puff physically and mentally [there is so much else that could be added] I just cannot see any kind of plan and hence a progression. Purchasing Benteke is a clear change in direction and represents a similar upheaval to bringing in a new manager. The fact that he is so green, yet refuses help from far more experienced people and struggles to buy new players makes it, "a no, for me".

I hope he proves me totally wrong next season if he is still here. Then again I don't hold much hope under the stewardship of FSG.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2015, 09:44:10 PM by Johns_Barn »

Offline xerxes

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Re: End of season round table debate (*)
« Reply #125 on: May 28, 2015, 10:05:00 PM »
I think the problem of the signings is exaggerated. Lovren is a dreadful player, the others are meh. That is true. They are the reason we didn't challenge for the title this year. But challenging for the title wasn't the aim, so we can overlook the poor signings, to an extent. The aim of the season was to lock Man Utd out of the CL, which would have been a crushing blow to them. And we failed at that because we were so poor against modest opposition. We took three points from Leicester, Villa, Hull, Palace and Sunderland at Anfield. You don't need good signings for those games, you need heart, organisation and a game plan. We could have finished 4th without any change to our results against the top 6. The opportunity to crush Man Utd is gone and it's not coming back.

Watching the Villa semi final or the Beşiktaş, Man Utd or Stoke away games I realised that I had seen poor Liverpool teams before, but never such a bunch of losers. The attitude was dreadful, and that has to be laid at the door of the manager. I don't agree with attacking him personally, but I think the reason people mention his teeth and his private life is that they sense there is a vanity about him - his concern for systems and philosophies that make him look good - that indicates a character flaw. And the thing his team lacks is character. Perhaps these things are related. Perhaps he can overcome it. I think he has used up all his credit, but I would give him one more go, if he can give some indication he knows what went wrong. But I want to see some character about Liverpool next season, I want to see a plan, and I want to see some intensity.
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Offline stockdam

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Re: End of season round table debate (*)
« Reply #126 on: May 28, 2015, 10:36:35 PM »
Thank you all for such thoughtful posts. Refreshing and good to see!


Thanks for letting the discussion flow. I think we are all disappointed and for me I go through cycles of wanting to revamp the whole club to periods where I see some very positive signs. The over-riding message throughout this thread is that this season overall was nowhere close to acceptable. We saw real signs of improvement last season and our expectations were raised.

Nobody at the club can be happy and I'm sure that some are doubting if Rodgers is the right man. These same people need to review their own performance and improve.

If there were no decent managers looking for a job then I'd give Rodgers more time. However there are two very good guys available who may take us forward. I wouldn't like to make the decision and in a way I'd like to see Ancelotti or Klopp alongside Rodgers but that's not going to happen.
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Offline Johns_Barn

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Re: End of season round table debate (*)
« Reply #127 on: May 28, 2015, 10:43:59 PM »
^The more it looks like reverting to 4231 the greater the fluke last season seems. Brendan is looking that gift horse right in the smacker. If we go that way there is a heavy waft of inevitability to things.





If we persisted with 3 at the back, and returned to the marauding 'fuck you' football we played last season after signing a decent number 9 there's nobody else I'd have in charge.

So much this.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2015, 11:52:39 PM by Johns_Barn »

Offline alvaro

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Re: End of season round table debate (*)
« Reply #128 on: May 28, 2015, 11:29:26 PM »
For me the manager question should always start not from the premise if the manager could have done better because almost every manager in the world makes mistakes so if we look it under that angle we will be sacking a manager every season.

That being said there are 3 managers I would take in a heartbeat and those are Klopp, Ancelotti and Benitez. Each manager is special.  Everything has been said about Klopp, he just looks so right for us. Ancelotti was on the wrong side of our greatest night in history but if he is going to break Paisley record he may as well break it with us :D , I dont know how legit the rumours are that he is intrested but he might as well be given the history. Turning down a 3 time european champion for Rodgers would seriously not be much worse than changing Benitez for Hodgson and I mean that without disrespecting Rodgers.

Right now the modus operandi should be trying to contact Ancelotti and see what is up. Then we should be contacting Klopp after the german cup final is over ( regardless of the result of course). If we cant bring in any of those 2( Im supposing Benitez will end up in Real Madrid ) then I would hope Mike Gordon has a conversation with Brendan in which the latter gets a chance to expose his plan to turn things around next season. If the interview is good then we can start planning for next season if its dissapointing and Brendan is clearly being stubborn then I guess we would have to let him go and start looking.



Offline McSquared

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Re: End of season round table debate (*)
« Reply #129 on: May 29, 2015, 12:08:44 AM »
The season before last we we utterly mesmerizing... Lightening in a bottle ( has anyone said that yet?). We reached heights that we're only a dream at the beginning of that campaign and we got drunk on our own success. Last season, the cork popped and ended up in catalunya and we wen't flat pretty quickly.

Without the SAS, we went from champagne football to a babychambles. We we're never going to replace Suarez with balotelli, and expect the same result, no matter how much we wanted to think this was going to happen and we should have had a plan B for danny sturridge, knowing his history, so for me there is a massive failing in the transfer policy of this club, but who knows who's fault it is and what the contributing factors were to the catastrophic failure.

After that, Brendan didn't really stand a chance. The lack of a firing striker and poor individual performances, particularly at the back meant we had to start knocking square pegs into round holes  and performances suffered as a result. Brendan has definately been a contributing factor in that with team selections, changing formations, in game management and sticking with a plan that was clearly not working far too long.

Then he changed it after utd, and things were looking up. There was hope there, and nobody can say otherwise. We were going to make the most out of the shambolic start to the season and pip the mancs to the fourth place trophy, but then we inexplicably went to shite and things fell apart. I myself find it difficult to explain exactly what happened there, and it certainly raises some questions about the manager, players and coaching staff that need to be answered. I think Brendan needs to be given the chance to answer the questions personally, and we should back him 100% while he his the manager, but for a significant portion of the fan base, I think will be just waiting for him to have a sticky start to the season and the knives will be fully out, which I don't think Benteke, Ings and Origi are going to help him with if I am honest.



Offline Johns_Barn

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Re: End of season round table debate (*)
« Reply #130 on: May 29, 2015, 12:14:58 AM »
I hate how much people's thinking about this club can change in one season. The amazing highs of last season, to the dreadful lows of this season.

I think we need to keep ourselves grounded. Our opinions are dragged up and down by the media.

We're not a mess. We're a little embarrassed cos' we got our hopes up a lot after a great season, and didn't realise how much it would hurt when we lost our best player and fell.

We've got a good, young squad with technically gifted players that need to develop. We've got a good, young manager with (some of) the right ideas and every season he is learning. We chose to employ a young manager who hadn't won anything. Who said he was perfect?

We need to ignore the media circus and back our club. Back our manager. Back our young team, who need to learn what it's like to be inspired by the kop. They'll make the best transfers possible, but they can't make players that want to play in CL or in London play in Liverpool in the Europa league. That's not in anybody's hands.

Footballs great cos' when things are good, you can get right carried away and everything is rosy. What's not so great is having to listen to all the taunts, the media headlines when its going shite. Reacting to them creates the problem, when the reality is we need to support our club and be positive. That's what we're here for.


With all due respect I make up my own mind, thank you. If you think three years with one man in charge and we still see a squad that doesn't appear to have any direction IS a mess. Exactly what were we trying to do against Stoke? There are several teams around us that lose their top players on a regular basis and are not in a mess. They've continued admirably.
One of the big things supposedly in our manager's armoury was his ability to bring young players on. Their lack of progress possibly regression should concern all of us.

Offline conman

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Re: End of season round table debate (*)
« Reply #131 on: May 29, 2015, 08:27:41 AM »
I broadly agree with the basic crux of Col's excellent post and I think he makes a great deal of sense in regard to the structure of the club and where many of our problems lie. When a club has no identity then, when faced with a problematic situation like we have right now because of how this season has gone, it is difficult to really know how to move forward and what our basis is for moving forward. Our identity currently seems to be non-existent, both on and off the pitch and getting it right on the pitch does not solve the underlying problem, nor does (maybe related to that) getting rid of Rodgers for a different manager. There needs to be some sort of change at a deeper level; I don't know how drastic that needs to be, just that there needs to be some clearer direction and this summer will be very important in terms of that. What happens with ..... [snip]

That was an exceptional post, sums up how i feel too.

Offline dumbo

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Re: End of season round table debate (*)
« Reply #132 on: May 29, 2015, 09:08:15 AM »
It was the other way round.  The system was in place and working well from the previous season.  Liverpool chose to sign players that didn't fit that system while simultaneously losing two key players that were vital to the system working. 

AFAICT those are the 2 viewpoints:
- the club accidentally signed a bunch of players diametrically opposed to system A.
[or]
- the club intentionally signed a bunch of players to play system B.

Personally I think the 2015/2016 plan is to once again try to revert to the Swansea 'death-by-passing' philosophy rather than an ultra-high tempo attacking game.

Offline Ozzie Red

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Re: End of season round table debate (*)
« Reply #133 on: May 29, 2015, 09:22:20 AM »
sorry in my opinion he has to go, we are no further on than when BR came in 3 seasons ago,  in fact we are worse off, no Suarez or Gerrard next season. The capitulation against Man U and hence tells me he has lost the players, the lack of fight in games since Man u is something I can not ever remember seeing consistingly before in a LFC team. Now there is no figure head for the team, Henderson is not a captain, descent player but not a person who you can rally too. I have no doubt BR will be a good manager when he is older, but we need something/somebody to lift the club and fans, Klopp would do that for me, Ancelotti wouldn't do this, successful yes but he's always had lots of money around and he wouldn't get that here
« Last Edit: May 29, 2015, 09:34:19 AM by Ozzie Red »
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Offline TSC

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Re: End of season round table debate (*)
« Reply #134 on: May 29, 2015, 10:09:16 AM »
AFAICT those are the 2 viewpoints:
- the club accidentally signed a bunch of players diametrically opposed to system A.
[or]
- the club intentionally signed a bunch of players to play system B.

Personally I think the 2015/2016 plan is to once again try to revert to the Swansea 'death-by-passing' philosophy rather than an ultra-high tempo attacking game.

The way events panned out would point to A. as the scenario, certainly regarding the failed chase for Sanchez and then the failed medical for Remi.  Then for whatever reason there was no fall-back options on the table for similar type players, so at the 11th hour Balotelli was signed, whether or not the manager wanted or needed such a signing for the system which was in place at the end of the prior season. Then Sturridge was effectively ruled out for the season on England duty.  Lambert was only ever signed as a back-up irrespective of system.

To suggest B. was the intended option would be to suggest Rodgers and Liverpool had effectively decided to bin the approach and style which, but for an extraordinary stroke of bad luck, would have delivered a first title in 24 years.  And anyway the very early games, especially Spurs away, suggests the intention was there to continue as we'd finished in terms of the approach.

Rodgers did change things when it became clear without Sturridge in addition to Suarez we simply couldn't play the same way with the same success with any one/two from Balotelli/Lambert/Borini.

What I can't fathom is when he changed formation mid-way through the season and we went on a run of decent performances and results is why it all came apart so drastically.  The only obvious change was Sakho getting injured & coming out of the 3 at the back.  Maybe he was key to that formation?  Who knows.

Offline Timbo's Goals

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Re: End of season round table debate (*)
« Reply #135 on: May 29, 2015, 12:14:29 PM »
The way events panned out would point to A. as the scenario, certainly regarding the failed chase for Sanchez and then the failed medical for Remi.  Then for whatever reason there was no fall-back options on the table for similar type players, so at the 11th hour Balotelli was signed, whether or not the manager wanted or needed such a signing for the system which was in place at the end of the prior season. Then Sturridge was effectively ruled out for the season on England duty.  Lambert was only ever signed as a back-up irrespective of system.

To suggest B. was the intended option would be to suggest Rodgers and Liverpool had effectively decided to bin the approach and style which, but for an extraordinary stroke of bad luck, would have delivered a first title in 24 years.  And anyway the very early games, especially Spurs away, suggests the intention was there to continue as we'd finished in terms of the approach.

Rodgers did change things when it became clear without Sturridge in addition to Suarez we simply couldn't play the same way with the same success with any one/two from Balotelli/Lambert/Borini.

What I can't fathom is when he changed formation mid-way through the season and we went on a run of decent performances and results is why it all came apart so drastically.  The only obvious change was Sakho getting injured & coming out of the 3 at the back.  Maybe he was key to that formation?  Who knows.

I actually covered this in an earlier post but it's not been picked up on.

We have to remember Sahko was in the same back three that failed so dismally against United and Arsenal. So it could be said that rather than his absence being a reason for the dip he was actually part of the wider problem.

Namely, we simply no longer offered any threat to anybody and were there for the taking.

If anything it was Ibe's absence which hurt us more as he'd actually provided us with a desperately need added attacking ingredient
 
But the real reason for it all going wrong was the very thing I've been banging on about for these past six months or so.

Namely, the failure to recruit the requisite attacking outlets in the summer and winter windows which finally caught up with the team - and Rodgers - around this time.

It's the one crucial overriding factor most on here seem to be hellbent on overlooking.

The papering over the cracks that gave us what transpired as false hope around January/February which Rodgers had so brilliantly orchestrated with the back three/wing back formation, Lucas shielding and the outstanding form of Coutinho and Sterling in the central attacking role saw itself dismantling as quickly as it had developed.

 As I'd said time and again in the months prior to it happening, Coutinho and Sterling would clearly hit the wall at some stage. And boy did they. There'd been far too much heaped on their shoulders. They had been our sole attacking outlet for two thirds of the season and in the end it told on them and they simply couldn't do it any more.

Plus teams had gotten wise to them being our only attacking threat.

In the final analysis it was all so much of an inevitability. And that is is why the savagery of the criticism of Rodgers is so unfair. Yes he made mistakes throughout the season trying to compensate for the transfer failings and he actually did unravel quite badly right at the death but the seeds of the unravelling had been sown by the fucking idiots behind the scenes in the summer and again in the winter transfer windows by their failure to recruit any one or two of dozens of suitable replacements available many of whom found homes throughout the rest of the Premiership.

Offline Timbo's Goals

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Re: End of season round table debate (*)
« Reply #136 on: May 29, 2015, 12:16:23 PM »
I hate how much people's thinking about this club can change in one season. The amazing highs of last season, to the dreadful lows of this season.

I think we need to keep ourselves grounded. Our opinions are dragged up and down by the media.

We're not a mess. We're a little embarrassed cos' we got our hopes up a lot after a great season, and didn't realise how much it would hurt when we lost our best player and fell.

We've got a good, young squad with technically gifted players that need to develop. We've got a good, young manager with (some of) the right ideas and every season he is learning. We chose to employ a young manager who hadn't won anything. Who said he was perfect?

We need to ignore the media circus and back our club. Back our manager. Back our young team, who need to learn what it's like to be inspired by the kop. They'll make the best transfers possible, but they can't make players that want to play in CL or in London play in Liverpool in the Europa league. That's not in anybody's hands.

Footballs great cos' when things are good, you can get right carried away and everything is rosy. What's not so great is having to listen to all the taunts, the media headlines when its going shite. Reacting to them creates the problem, when the reality is we need to support our club and be positive. That's what we're here for.

I'm in the same sort of territory as yourself albeit I do admit that Rodger's quite awful team/player management during the season's final death throes have unnerved me more than a bit.

It does seem, however, on reading back through the thread that the prospect of a Klopp or Ancelotti arriving is altogether too enticing for most within this thread to do anything other than offer a weasel apologist argument masquerading as sensible rationale for dumping Rodgers in favour of those sort of more proven higher profile managers.

Why scarcely one of these 'top manager advocates' cannot admit to or even pay reference to the real reason - namely going an entire season without an attacking outlet worthy of the name - for our failure to attain a top four position and make an acceptable fist of Europe, I can only put down to the reality of what actually transpired following the departure of Suarez and Sturridge's injuries not quite fitting in with their underlying agenda.

Why else would they deny it or not even refer to it?

One thing's for sure, if Rodgers does survive to fight another day he'd better ensure a successful start to the season because the prevailing craving for a recognized top manager will otherwise see him hounded out quicker than anything we've ever before witnessed. Even many of the the moderates seem to have the bloodlust. 

Offline Harinder

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Re: End of season round table debate (*)
« Reply #137 on: May 29, 2015, 12:21:33 PM »
Some good points sadly removed due to one post being sub par (no pun intended).

As you were. Just to remind all Brendan Rodgers is the manager. Overspeculating on replacements isn't really a great thing to do as it will serve to derail. We're at a good balance so lets keep that going :)

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Offline elliotsmith101

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Re: End of season round table debate (*)
« Reply #138 on: May 29, 2015, 12:29:06 PM »
I just think that whilst contracts apparently mean nothing in modern football, I personally would become disillusioned with a club that gives a manager a 5 year contract one year, and sacks him the next.

We pride ourselves on being "different" from other clubs, showing loyalty. I just think if we want to be who we believe we are as a club, then we need to back him.

We don't deserve some other manager to come and wave his wand and make us champions (like that would happen anyway).

I see us as a club that grafts, and doesn't get the easy way all the time.

If new owners were to come along with infinite money, and guaranteed us signing pep guardiola and the 11 best footballers in the world that would guarantee success would you want it for our club? I wouldn't

Offline ahfolk79

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Re: End of season round table debate (*)
« Reply #139 on: May 29, 2015, 01:21:36 PM »
I'm in the same sort of territory as yourself albeit I do admit that Rodger's quite awful team/player management during the season's final death throes have unnerved me more than a bit.

It does seem, however, on reading back through the thread that the prospect of a Klopp or Ancelotti arriving is altogether too enticing for most within this thread to do anything other than offer a weasel apologist argument masquerading as sensible rationale for dumping Rodgers in favour of those sort of more proven higher profile managers.

Why scarcely one of these 'top manager advocates' cannot admit to or even pay reference to the real reason - namely going an entire season without an attacking outlet worthy of the name - for our failure to attain a top four position and make an acceptable fist of Europe, I can only put down to the reality of what actually transpired following the departure of Suarez and Sturridge's injuries not quite fitting in with their underlying agenda.

Why else would they deny it or not even refer to it?

One thing's for sure, if Rodgers does survive to fight another day he'd better ensure a successful start to the season because the prevailing craving for a recognized top manager will otherwise see him hounded out quicker than anything we've ever before witnessed. Even many of the the moderates seem to have the bloodlust.

Timbo - I have to say I respect you for being one of the few voices on here who was utterly frustrated by our failure to buy proper attackers last summer. You were right all along.

BR seems to have taken most of the blame for the humbling at Stoke and, sure, his team selection was baffling. But even allowing for the limitations of the formation or selecion, the players should have had enough about them to battle to keep the score respectable.

I don't want to go down the road of speculating about BR's role or advocating anyone else but what worries me most is the question of can we recover from the implosion at the end of the season without making big changes of some nature, whether that is to the coaching team, the playing staff or the management structure. I fear a hangover at the start of next season because of our humilations against Palace and Stoke.

Whatever way you look at it, I think our enthusiasm and expectation for the new season is going to be at an all time low.
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Re: End of season round table debate (*)
« Reply #140 on: May 29, 2015, 03:08:46 PM »
Timbo - I have to say I respect you for being one of the few voices on here who was utterly frustrated by our failure to buy proper attackers last summer. You were right all along.

BR seems to have taken most of the blame for the humbling at Stoke and, sure, his team selection was baffling. But even allowing for the limitations of the formation or selecion, the players should have had enough about them to battle to keep the score respectable.

I don't want to go down the road of speculating about BR's role or advocating anyone else but what worries me most is the question of can we recover from the implosion at the end of the season without making big changes of some nature, whether that is to the coaching team, the playing staff or the management structure. I fear a hangover at the start of next season because of our humilations against Palace and Stoke.

Whatever way you look at it, I think our enthusiasm and expectation for the new season is going to be at an all time low.

I think the highlighted bit is a particularly well warranted fear. And the simple truth is you could well be right that we really do require as an entity some tangible demonstration that something was at fault and it needed rectifying.

That said, as I've pointed out time and again I am and always have been the proverbial cock-eyed red optimist and that invariably serves to protect me rightly or wrongly from fearing the worst and rather points me towards expecting the best.

And so I confidently predict that Origi and Ings fed by Milner and Coutinho with Sturridge applying the final gloss will lead us to number 19 and lickle Brendan will have a special fake tan to bring out the gleaming whiteness of his perfect gnashers as he smiles at the final passing into waste bin history of all this season's adversity.

 ;D

Offline Redrider

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Re: End of season round table debate (*)
« Reply #141 on: May 29, 2015, 03:36:39 PM »
Lot's of arguments for change and some good calls for stability. However, to me it seems patently obvious that we are on fairly steep slope of dangerous decline which cries out for drastic action.
Change has its risks and changing out Rodgers should only be undertaken when we are sure that we have a better man lined-up. This is the mistake FSG made when they changed out KD, they moved without finding the best man for the job, when it would have oh so easy to continue with Dalglish until they had their hands on the best man for the job, instead they put themselves under pressure and left themselves with no manager and a vacancy to fill in short time, where the poor choice seemed to be between a relatively unknown in Rodgers and Martinez who had very little 'top flight' experience.
Yes, we do need to change to arrest the situation, there is too much wrong in the current set-up of absentee owners providing interventionist management from the USA, which has little knowledge of UK and European Football, on top of a CEO who has promoted beyond his capabilities and a Head Coach, who appears not to be up to the job and has created additional diversions for himself with marital lifestyle distractions and a team consisting of a mixed bag of underperforming players of mostly mediocre potential.

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Re: End of season round table debate (*)
« Reply #142 on: May 29, 2015, 03:38:46 PM »
I think the highlighted bit is a particularly well warranted fear. And the simple truth is you could well be right that we really do require as an entity some tangible demonstration that something was at fault and it needed rectifying.

That said, as I've pointed out time and again I am and always have been the proverbial cock-eyed red optimist and that invariably serves to protect me rightly or wrongly from fearing the worst and rather points me towards expecting the best.

And so I confidently predict that Origi and Ings fed by Milner and Coutinho with Sturridge applying the final gloss will lead us to number 19 and lickle Brendan will have a special fake tan to bring out the gleaming whiteness of his perfect gnashers as he smiles at the final passing into waste bin history of all this season's adversity.

 ;D
Seriously this time - I guess you, I, everyone,  would like to think that our 'character' would embrace those failings, use them as a point of reference, something that drives us that we don't want to return to, a ideal that we shall learn, that we will face those defeats and failings and look them head on, we will prevail and we will improve, we will show, character.............

A tad dramatic I know, but we need to develop on the inside, not just on the outside.
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Offline Flaccido Dongingo

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Re: End of season round table debate (*)
« Reply #143 on: May 29, 2015, 04:29:01 PM »
Brendan needs to have more confidence in himself, we had the conversion to 3-4-3 reap almost immediate dividends (it would have been immediate if Sterling could have finished half his chances at Old Trafford), and then the 13 or 14 (league) match unbeaten run, but then one bad performance (again against that lot) and he tears it up, even Lovren looked (a bit) better in that formation, and it gave us 7 away clean sheets in a row, that is phenomenal defensive solidity, had we had our best goal scorer fit at the time we'd have been laughing.

So it makes the decision to revert to 4-3-3 (which clearly doesn't work) and making us more vulnerable again all the more baffling, all he needed to round off the 3-4-3 formation this season is a good right wing back, a couple of strikers, and maybe another centre back, I wouldn't be against having Ilori or Coates in reserve as 4th or 5th choice in the squad, along with Lovren and Toure.

4 at the back, with our current personnel, and Brendans blank spot for defensive coaching is clearly the wrong way to go, we played so much better football, had a better shape, and more importantly we looked like a solid defensive unit, who knows whether he took a stab in the dark with that formation, or if he used what tactical nous he possesses to devise it, the important thing is, it worked, and very well.

I'm possibly in the minority here, but for once I think Clyne would be a very very good signing, as part of a 3-4-3 he gets forward well (as proven by his goal at Anfield), and is a good defensive full back too in a back 4, hopefully this sort of sensible spending will be a trend this summer.

Vote Labour

Offline Bergersleftpeg

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Re: End of season round table debate (*)
« Reply #144 on: May 29, 2015, 06:00:02 PM »


I can't quite figure Rodgers out. He makes changes to the system fairly frequently and sometimes the results are spectacular, but them sometimes he reverts back to an older system that never really worked. It is really strange, and it makes me question whether the positive changes are just luck or tactical brilliance.

Does anyone know if the Hawthorne effect has ever been studied in a football/other sport context? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawthorne_effect

I was thinking @trendisnotdestiny or @pop may know.

Basically, the theory is that ANY change will often improve motivation and/or productivity. It could explain things like the "New manager bounce" or the upturns after Rodgers tinkering, though that is perhaps extremely unfair to Rodgers.

Offline Smellytrabs

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Re: End of season round table debate (*)
« Reply #145 on: May 29, 2015, 06:28:39 PM »
Brendan needs to have more confidence in himself, we had the conversion to 3-4-3 reap almost immediate dividends (it would have been immediate if Sterling could have finished half his chances at Old Trafford), and then the 13 or 14 (league) match unbeaten run, but then one bad performance (again against that lot) and he tears it up, even Lovren looked (a bit) better in that formation, and it gave us 7 away clean sheets in a row, that is phenomenal defensive solidity, had we had our best goal scorer fit at the time we'd have been laughing.

So it makes the decision to revert to 4-3-3 (which clearly doesn't work) and making us more vulnerable again all the more baffling, all he needed to round off the 3-4-3 formation this season is a good right wing back, a couple of strikers, and maybe another centre back, I wouldn't be against having Ilori or Coates in reserve as 4th or 5th choice in the squad, along with Lovren and Toure.

4 at the back, with our current personnel, and Brendans blank spot for defensive coaching is clearly the wrong way to go, we played so much better football, had a better shape, and more importantly we looked like a solid defensive unit, who knows whether he took a stab in the dark with that formation, or if he used what tactical nous he possesses to devise it, the important thing is, it worked, and very well.

I'm possibly in the minority here, but for once I think Clyne would be a very very good signing, as part of a 3-4-3 he gets forward well (as proven by his goal at Anfield), and is a good defensive full back too in a back 4, hopefully this sort of sensible spending will be a trend this summer.



The thing is, the 3 at the back system was a bit of a false dawn. Although it certainly stopped the rot, and prevented us looking like a complete shambles, I don't think it actually looked particularly good either (only in comparison to what had gone before).  Although results improved, there were few and far between performances in that period that could justifiably be called "good".

With three at the back we certainly looked less shit, but I don't reckon there was enough there for us to build a future season around it.

If Rodgers stays and his summer signings look like it's going to be three at the back next season, I am going to be watching the opening games through my fingers.

Offline Johns_Barn

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Re: End of season round table debate (*)
« Reply #146 on: May 29, 2015, 06:58:06 PM »
I'm in the same sort of territory as yourself albeit I do admit that Rodger's quite awful team/player management during the season's final death throes have unnerved me more than a bit.

It does seem, however, on reading back through the thread that the prospect of a Klopp or Ancelotti arriving is altogether too enticing for most within this thread to do anything other than offer a weasel apologist argument masquerading as sensible rationale for dumping Rodgers in favour of those sort of more proven higher profile managers.

Why scarcely one of these 'top manager advocates' cannot admit to or even pay reference to the real reason - namely going an entire season without an attacking outlet worthy of the name - for our failure to attain a top four position and make an acceptable fist of Europe, I can only put down to the reality of what actually transpired following the departure of Suarez and Sturridge's injuries not quite fitting in with their underlying agenda.

Why else would they deny it or not even refer to it?

One thing's for sure, if Rodgers does survive to fight another day he'd better ensure a successful start to the season because the prevailing craving for a recognized top manager will otherwise see him hounded out quicker than anything we've ever before witnessed. Even many of the the moderates seem to have the bloodlust.


Could it be that your agenda is to not admit that Rodgers is not enough of a name/draw for the majority of the talents that we require to get us 'there'- especially in tug of war with other top 6/7 EPL teams. If we had loads of dough then it wouldn't matter but given our financial restrictions we've all spoken about the need to be clever, well cleverer than the rest. We currently neither have the pull or the the riches. Status quo sees this club slide slowly downwards. IMO the most dramatic change we could make now would via the manager hotseat.

I've said before sacking will not be the silver bullet that magically fixes everything but it would provide a massive jolt to the system in the short term with an extra 15% output from our current squad. After a year or so we could still be in the shit when it comes to identification and buying of new players. We need much more in the way of football people in football matters. Experts in every position. Not the tail wagging the dog with refusals of DoFs.

Also surely wouldn't it have been the manager's job to spot the potential for bumps in the road re Sturridge's injury...why then spend the amount of time/energy pursuing Southampton's talents- none of which were priorities. To take Brendan out of the firing line for Balotelli is wrong given his numerous statements....of which there have been loads.

I personally don't necessarily crave a "Top" manager just like I don't crave a marquee signing. I just want someone that shows he can learn, is flexible in his/her thinking, is humble enough to admit errors and most important learn from them. The buy EPL talent thing is just another cause for concern.

Offline Johns_Barn

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Re: End of season round table debate (*)
« Reply #147 on: May 29, 2015, 07:01:13 PM »
I just think that whilst contracts apparently mean nothing in modern football, I personally would become disillusioned with a club that gives a manager a 5 year contract one year, and sacks him the next.

We pride ourselves on being "different" from other clubs, showing loyalty. I just think if we want to be who we believe we are as a club, then we need to back him.

We don't deserve some other manager to come and wave his wand and make us champions (like that would happen anyway).

I see us as a club that grafts, and doesn't get the easy way all the time.

If new owners were to come along with infinite money, and guaranteed us signing pep guardiola and the 11 best footballers in the world that would guarantee success would you want it for our club? I wouldn't


That's all well and good but question: who are the decision makers at LFC nowadays? Are they steeped in football. Do they honestly know more than the better posters here? I don't see why being an outlier automatically makes you better or special.

Offline Timbo's Goals

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Re: End of season round table debate (*)
« Reply #148 on: May 29, 2015, 08:10:23 PM »

Could it be that your agenda is to not admit that Rodgers is not enough of a name/draw for the majority of the talents that we require to get us 'there'- especially in tug of war with other top 6/7 EPL teams. If we had loads of dough then it wouldn't matter but given our financial restrictions we've all spoken about the need to be clever, well cleverer than the rest. We currently neither have the pull or the the riches. Status quo sees this club slide slowly downwards. IMO the most dramatic change we could make now would via the manager hotseat.

I've said before sacking will not be the silver bullet that magically fixes everything but it would provide a massive jolt to the system in the short term with an extra 15% output from our current squad. After a year or so we could still be in the shit when it comes to identification and buying of new players. We need much more in the way of football people in football matters. Experts in every position. Not the tail wagging the dog with refusals of DoFs.

Also surely wouldn't it have been the manager's job to spot the potential for bumps in the road re Sturridge's injury...why then spend the amount of time/energy pursuing Southampton's talents- none of which were priorities. To take Brendan out of the firing line for Balotelli is wrong given his numerous statements....of which there have been loads.

I personally don't necessarily crave a "Top" manager just like I don't crave a marquee signing. I just want someone that shows he can learn, is flexible in his/her thinking, is humble enough to admit errors and most important learn from them. The buy EPL talent thing is just another cause for concern.


If I believed for even one second that Rodgers was responsible for the attacking outlet recruitment debacle in both the summer and winter transfer windows then I'd personally walk the 500 yards across to Melwood spark the security guards and proceed to root out Brendan and knock his sparkling peggies down his fucking throat.

Thankfully, I don't have to do that because he wasn't within a million miles of those fucking ridiculous decisions albeit he doesn't quite get away scot free because he clearly quite erroneously felt he could manage things as they were bequeathed to him rather than piping up and calling the fucking imbeciles for what they were/are in failing to recruit what was so desperately needed.

As for his being 'enough of a draw'.

As I've said a million times now I've watched every side in the Premiership arrive at Anfield and proceed to play with front men infinitely more suited to our requirements than what Rodgers was bequeathed with by the imbeciles behind the scenes.

Had we have recruited just one of these players that have rubbed my fucking nose in it for an entire season then a top four spot would I'm sure have been acquired some time before the end of this season of torture.

The entire thing was an utter fucking disgrace, an insult to every fan like myself who forked out around £1000 to watch a team for an entire season making a fucking fool of all of us with no striker worthy of the name and with our entire attacking momentum totally dependant upon two young lads who ran themselves into the ground at which point the team and the manager completely fell apart.

Now whilst I do feel that Rodgers was guilty of misjudgements some of which towards the death have unnerved me with regard to his suitability, I feel very strongly right now that in overall terms given the marvelous footballing feast he provided us with for a huge chunk of his time here [namely the last half of the 2013/2014 season and the whole of the 2014/2015 season plus his winter fiesta just gone with his back three formation] that he has more than earned the right to another shot.

The fact there appear to be so many who have fallen under the spell of the prospect ot the new super duper managerial appointment has I do admit hardened my stance by some considerable degree. I do find that inclination more than a mite sickening if truth be told.

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Re: End of season round table debate (*)
« Reply #149 on: May 29, 2015, 08:11:52 PM »
Seriously this time - I guess you, I, everyone,  would like to think that our 'character' would embrace those failings, use them as a point of reference, something that drives us that we don't want to return to, a ideal that we shall learn, that we will face those defeats and failings and look them head on, we will prevail and we will improve, we will show, character.............

A tad dramatic I know, but we need to develop on the inside, not just on the outside.

Well said Chops. Couldn't agree more.

Offline Torpedo Tommy

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Re: End of season round table debate
« Reply #150 on: May 29, 2015, 08:41:44 PM »
I said it before now, but there is an almost out of place arrogance from the club at times. From top to bottom, not just in the way we act, but in the manner we go about things regarding team restructuring.

Starting with Brendan talking about how big a club we are, a giant on the world stage, to the way we spend the money we get, there seems to be something misplaced about us, we still have a sense of entitlement, and from a club that has gone 25 years with no title, and one league cup in 9 years, 1 season in the CL in 5 seasons, it just comes across as being mired by our much vaunted history and past. Unable to move on.

Where I'm going with this is the way we spent some of the money we got from Suarez sale. The likes of Chelsea can afford to spend £20m on young players with potential, because they can back that up with £30+ million pound star players. If the young £20m player doesn't work out, it doesn't matter, they have a £35m star player taking the pressure off. Us? Our 'star' players are the £20m young lads, or it seems we as a club seem to think we can do that. We have rapidly run out of star players, so players like Markovic are judged, dissected and destroyed because they aren't given the time to adapt, to bed in, because our arrogant philosophy is that we can do it with potential. We can win trophies with 'potential'.

Well, it's been done before, but by teams that had already been there and done it. We haven't.

We spent the money raised from Suarez, finishing 2nd and CL qualification in the most cack handed, crass manner, to the point where you had arrogant statements from Rodgers about other clubs lack of ambition and mistakes which we have since replicated almost exactly. It's hard to even get frustrated about it, it's just exasperating. And finishing behind one of them a few points above the other is embarrassing to say the least after the stuff we blustered about while we were taking players off them.

People will say it's all hindsight, that Lambert, Lallana and Lovren had played well the season before, but you could see we were paying over the odds for these players again, lots of people on RAWk even noticed and said so, and yet we did it again. We never learn from mistakes, and I think it's this arrogance of who we are which was increased again at the end of the season as we had come so close. Suddenly, the manager and fans were thinking 'we're back' and we can just buy players and mould them into this new young managers philosophy and be world beaters.

For a team that hasn't won the title in 25 years, we go into every season with this huge weight of expectation. People will argue this and say we don't, but we do. Yet we talk like a huge club (which we are) but act like a mid-table one, run by 'committee' and trading on history.

I looked at Facebook the day after the 6-1, and there was a post from the club about '10 years ago, we won the CL in Istanbul'. And it hit me then. While I don't advocate forgetting your history and identity, it makes us special, but I think we are hamstrung by it more now than ever. Last season coming so close has only made it worse.

Maybe the time has come to be proud of our history, but put it to one side and concentrate on now. We sing proudly that Chelsea have 'no history' ... maybe not, but they are making their's now. We seem to use ours as a crutch when things don't go well or other clubs win trophy after trophy. We used to be proud of the fact we won more titles and CL than anyone else. The titles record has gone, how long until the CL one goes too?

Football has changed. We need to as well. Thinking we can spend the money we spent on 'potential' like we do is the act of a club either so arrogant to think they have a genius in charge (who has never won anything) who can mould these lads into title winners, or we are a club that will keep up this cut the wage bill mentality and stagnate so badly, that we fall so far behind the clubs winning things, no-one of any note will want to come here anymore.

I'm genuinely worried as to where we are headed, in terms of keeping up with the modern game and as a team. Because like it or not, the more we don't win things, the more we keep harping on about what happened 10-20 years ago, the more we'll fall behind.

And it's sad when you see 100,000 fans in Melbourne singing YNWA that they don't have people at the club exploiting that level of fandom and worldwide support to make this club as big as it can be again.  :-\

Great post Paul.  Some very good points very well made!

Offline jambutty

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Re: End of season round table debate (*)
« Reply #151 on: May 29, 2015, 09:36:11 PM »
From a footy standpoint, I don't even belong in this thread.

But I know a bit about business and a lot about Yank sport.

FSG are smart lads.

They employ smart lads.

They will try to establish the right business model.  (They're capitalists, and good at what they do.)

They will tweak and improve the model to make it more successful.

They are in the process of establishing a management style which will hopefully achieve quality and value from our transfers.

A five year contract usually means 4 years backing and a year's severance.

Meanwhile, a sitting LFC manager who took a 7th place team and almost swiped the league, loses 50 goals, shows some scintillating footy, finishes 6th and all of you fuckers are talking about his replacement?

They may know fuck all about footy, but they know how to run a business.

Guys on here that know everything about footy are a dime a dozen.

We're not top 4.  Haven't been for years.

Not good enough for Liverpool?

Nothing is forever.  Get over it.

We're entitled to fuck all.

We dumped Rafa, he's gone to Real.

A small portion of our fanbase will make us more and more unnattractive to our 'next' owner (if we can find one).  Exit strategies will have been planned and getting tweaked. If they sell. many may once again pine for what we had.

Don't let the bastards get you down, Brendan.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2015, 09:50:53 PM by jambutty »
“Socialism never took root in America because the poor see themselves not as an exploited proletariat but as temporarily embarrassed millionaires.”

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Offline Gnurglan

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Re: End of season round table debate (*)
« Reply #152 on: May 29, 2015, 11:34:42 PM »

Where I'm going with this is the way we spent some of the money we got from Suarez sale. The likes of Chelsea can afford to spend £20m on young players with potential, because they can back that up with £30+ million pound star players. If the young £20m player doesn't work out, it doesn't matter, they have a £35m star player taking the pressure off. Us? Our 'star' players are the £20m young lads, or it seems we as a club seem to think we can do that. We have rapidly run out of star players, so players like Markovic are judged, dissected and destroyed because they aren't given the time to adapt, to bed in, because our arrogant philosophy is that we can do it with potential. We can win trophies with 'potential'.

...
I looked at Facebook the day after the 6-1, and there was a post from the club about '10 years ago, we won the CL in Istanbul'. And it hit me then. While I don't advocate forgetting your history and identity, it makes us special, but I think we are hamstrung by it more now than ever. Last season coming so close has only made it worse.
...

Football has changed. We need to as well. Thinking we can spend the money we spent on 'potential' like we do is the act of a club either so arrogant to think they have a genius in charge (who has never won anything) who can mould these lads into title winners, or we are a club that will keep up this cut the wage bill mentality and stagnate so badly, that we fall so far behind the clubs winning things, no-one of any note will want to come here anymore.

The way I see it, our history is great for us today, if we use it the right way. Look back and see how things were done. Watch and learn. We won in Istanbul. We fought against the odds and found a way. We've been the best. If we examine what we did, how the teams were built, how we went about doing transfers etc, we'll have a very good starting point. I think we're using it the wrong way though. It's as if we think we don't have to work extremely hard for success. We buy potential and assume we'll find the next legend. We praise our system, even though we produce average results at best in the transfer market. We want to have patience because Shankly and Paisley formed something great over time.

We can see it so easily too, how we are not set up to be this winning machine. We're careless with money. We accept failure and think it will solve itself if we just show a bit of patience. That is, if we do nothing. This can be seen how we (don't) offload players. And then, when we finally find something that works, that's when we think we need to make radical changes.

The day when we get back to the level we want, things will look very different. This is when we will look at Coutinho's and Lallana's contribution this season and think they are perhaps not as good as we need them to be. Because really, how many goals and assists did we get from Coutinho? 5+5? Enough? We thought he was so good. Was he? And really, if we think back at Sami, we know what a leading CB looks like. Do we have him? A player with that aura about him, a player that dominant in the air? It's when we begin to have the right answers that we will know. And it's when we begin to be this tough that we will be on the right track.

But here we are, talking patience, wondering what to do. And we think it's not so bad what we got from Markovic and Lallana. 7+7 and we only spent 45M this season. 30M+ to improve the defence and nothing improved. 20M to get 3 league goals up front. But give it time. Let's hope for the best. Or? All we need to know is there, if we dare to see it. And then we need to act accordingly. What would Shankly or Paisley have done? What would they have made of our collapse at the end? How would they have dealt with our lack of fight?

I believe they would have been ruthless.

        * * * * * *


"The key isn't the system itself, but how the players adapt on the pitch. It doesn't matter if it's 4-3-3 or 4-4-2, it's the role of the players that counts." Rafa Benitez

Offline TSC

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Re: End of season round table debate (*)
« Reply #153 on: May 29, 2015, 11:46:00 PM »
The way I see it, our history is great for us today, if we use it the right way. Look back and see how things were done. Watch and learn. We won in Istanbul. We fought against the odds and found a way. We've been the best. If we examine what we did, how the teams were built, how we went about doing transfers etc, we'll have a very good starting point. I think we're using it the wrong way though. It's as if we think we don't have to work extremely hard for success. We buy potential and assume we'll find the next legend. We praise our system, even though we produce average results at best in the transfer market. We want to have patience because Shankly and Paisley formed something great over time.

We can see it so easily too, how we are not set up to be this winning machine. We're careless with money. We accept failure and think it will solve itself if we just show a bit of patience. That is, if we do nothing. This can be seen how we (don't) offload players. And then, when we finally find something that works, that's when we think we need to make radical changes.

The day when we get back to the level we want, things will look very different. This is when we will look at Coutinho's and Lallana's contribution this season and think they are perhaps not as good as we need them to be. Because really, how many goals and assists did we get from Coutinho? 5+5? Enough? We thought he was so good. Was he? And really, if we think back at Sami, we know what a leading CB looks like. Do we have him? A player with that aura about him, a player that dominant in the air? It's when we begin to have the right answers that we will know. And it's when we begin to be this tough that we will be on the right track.

But here we are, talking patience, wondering what to do. And we think it's not so bad what we got from Markovic and Lallana. 7+7 and we only spent 45M this season. 30M+ to improve the defence and nothing improved. 20M to get 3 league goals up front. But give it time. Let's hope for the best. Or? All we need to know is there, if we dare to see it. And then we need to act accordingly. What would Shankly or Paisley have done? What would they have made of our collapse at the end? How would they have dealt with our lack of fight?

I believe they would have been ruthless.

Good post that.  We're merely kidding ourselves if we think we have anything approaching a nucleus of a decent squad.  A massive clear-out is needed.

Offline Black Bull Nova

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Re: End of season round table debate (*)
« Reply #154 on: May 30, 2015, 12:06:21 AM »
I've just taken a look at the results and the games this season just to ensure that the memory is not playing tricks on me. On a broad picture I remember a very poor long lasting start, a competent spell in the middle and a shocking end.

In total we played 58 games, probably only 2 could be classified as played well and won comfortably, Spurs away and Swansea at home, added to that some reasonably comfortable wins against teams we should easily beat, a good win against City, a few games were we probably lucky but sneaked results (much like Chelsea, so is that a problem) and a whole host of substandard performances with a few that were truly awful.

It is difficult to reconcile against last year where we probably had 20+ games which were comfortably won with outstanding football.

The contrast is greater than I can remember, not just for us, but any major club playing under the same manager.

That's whats difficult to get your head round,we'd been improving at the end of 2012/13 and that continued into last season then........


A full blown car crash of a season which we couldn't really shake and which spiralled out of control at the end. We effectively lost 3 players, Suarez, Sturridge and Flanagan, but the difference appeared to be as much psychological as anything, as if Steve Peter's had made people believe and then woken them up in a new reality.

So how do we get our mojo back? Its not just about players, something has snapped in the heads of many of the players, even the new ones and it will take one of three things to restore us to anywhere near where we were last year.

1. A change in those motivating the players, coaching staff, management, whoever they are
2. Players that can do more than simply play, leaders, they do exist but they are rare, Gerrard was, Suarez was, Hypia was, Alonso was, Souness was, buying something more than the ability of a player
3. A change in mindset of players and management, this can be created through a winning culture but it will require some intensive confidence building over the summer.

Do I believe any of those will work? Its so flat at the moment and our pulling power and decision making are so weak recently that whilst I believe 2 and 3 are possible I can't see how it will happen but if 1 is not done, that's what we need to somehow pull out.

Would buying Ings, Benteke and Milner satisfy 2. No, don't think so and, unfortunately don't give much confidence that a significant change in mindset is being addressed, we are in danger of being competent but mediocre next year although 25 spawny wins like United this season would be better than what we've just seen.

aarf, aarf, aarf.

Offline RogerTheRed

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Re: End of season round table debate (*)
« Reply #155 on: May 30, 2015, 07:18:44 AM »
What I do not understand about this season is how no one at the club were able to remember the lessons learnt after Palace away. We started poorly with 4 at the back defending poorly and making mistakes, failed to dominate matches in midfield and hoped Mario would start scoring.
After Palace Carra had a rant about passion, Rodgers worried about his job and 343 came into play.
During the next few months we won some games, looked more defensively solid and our creative midfielders , including Henderson, took turns to score the goals our forwards had failed to.
After the Utd game we reverted to the start of the season again, lost momentum, goals dried up and one of our players of the new system - Emre Can -was chucked to right back, with disastrous results and left there.
How did this happen and why was it not changed ? It is the deterioration over the last few matches that cause so much anxiety and failure to resolve.
We need to ensure we do not start next season with the same combination of poor defenders, out-run midfielders and Non-scoring forwards that this season began and ended with.
Does this mean Rodgers lost it? Was the Stevie leaving and Sterling disgrace all too much for the squad? I don't know but a solution is required and I do not think a few transfers will be enough. I hope to see the leadership team bolstered one way or another.
Come On You Mighty Scouse Reds!!

Offline ThePoolMan

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Re: End of season round table debate (*)
« Reply #156 on: May 30, 2015, 09:20:10 AM »
Apart from the disappointing sixth place finish which I refuse to accept is par for course for us - a most Hodgson- like statement from Rodgers - the far more disturbing aspect of this season has been the truly appalling decision making of virtually every part of the club concerning footballing matters. We have totally messed up the season with illogical and incompetent choices. From the choice of overpriced premiership footballers from Southampton to depending too much on raw youngsters who are not ready to bear the burden of spearheading the team to misusing those players by wrongly deploying them to hitching the striking duties in case of almost certain injury to sturridge on balotelli which is a gamble that should not have to be made by a team like liverpool, to failing to tie down sterling to a new contract last season's end...

Rodgers and ayre and Edwards and fallows have all failed the club. They need to be replaced by better personnel. FSG needs to start afresh, this time with professionals who have global and European wide experience and exposure, and not the Anglo-centric approach that has hampered us.

Offline Timbo's Goals

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Re: End of season round table debate (*)
« Reply #157 on: May 30, 2015, 10:17:09 AM »
What I do not understand about this season is how no one at the club were able to remember the lessons learnt after Palace away. We started poorly with 4 at the back defending poorly and making mistakes, failed to dominate matches in midfield and hoped Mario would start scoring.
After Palace Carra had a rant about passion, Rodgers worried about his job and 343 came into play.
During the next few months we won some games, looked more defensively solid and our creative midfielders , including Henderson, took turns to score the goals our forwards had failed to.
After the Utd game we reverted to the start of the season again, lost momentum, goals dried up and one of our players of the new system - Emre Can -was chucked to right back, with disastrous results and left there.
How did this happen and why was it not changed ? It is the deterioration over the last few matches that cause so much anxiety and failure to resolve.
We need to ensure we do not start next season with the same combination of poor defenders, out-run midfielders and Non-scoring forwards that this season began and ended with.
Does this mean Rodgers lost it? Was the Stevie leaving and Sterling disgrace all too much for the squad? I don't know but a solution is required and I do not think a few transfers will be enough. I hope to see the leadership team bolstered one way or another.


Highlighted bit.

Don't think there's any doubt about that. He did lose it - which is clearly a concern and did unnerve me.

But as I've now said more than a few times  ;D I'm convinced the downward spiral from the United home game onwards following that good post Christmas run/form was that the two players upon which our entire attacking strategy/momentum had depended up to that moment simply ran out of steam. They both hit the wall at the same time and with them both fucked the team simply had nothing left to offer in an attacking sense. We became so easy to play against, it left us as an easy target for any side. Marine reserves could have done a job on us.

Yet, contrary to all the fuckin jackals within this thread who seem as one to have conveniently wiped from the records what the manager brought us during the last part of the 2013/14 season and the whole of the 2014/15 season for me there's now no doubt the fellow deserves the chance to emulate and hopefully even improve trophy wise  :) on what he managed with the side in the periods I've mentioned.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2015, 10:38:07 AM by Timbo's Goals »

Offline HardworkDedication

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Re: End of season round table debate (*)
« Reply #158 on: May 30, 2015, 11:01:23 AM »
Blood Red: Winning over FSG is one thing, but Rodgers must also win over disaffected fans

05:00, 30 MAY 2015 BY JAMES PEARCE

Manager fighting on two fronts to rescue his Anfield reign

Brendan Rodgers has not one but two major hurdles to negotiate if he’s going to come back from the brink at Liverpool FC.

First, there is that showdown with Fenway Sports Group’s Mike Gordon as part of the club’s end of season review into a desperate campaign.

Rodgers must convince the owners that he can put right what’s gone horribly wrong over the past nine months.

If the Northern Irishman achieves that then his Anfield reign will enter a fourth season but he still won’t be in the clear.

Far from it.

The second hurdle facing him is more daunting.

If he gets the green light from Boston over the next fortnight then Rodgers will have to set about trying to win back the faith and trust of a fanbase left disillusioned by Liverpool’s fall from grace.

Last Sunday’s humiliation at the hands of Stoke City was a tipping point for many supporters.

Those calling for change aren’t just keyboard warriors in Timbuktu but many devoted Kopites who spend their hard earned cash travelling home and away.

It’s too easy to dismiss what happened at the Britannia Stadium as a meaningless end of season game. It wasn’t.

For a start, defeat cost Liverpool £1.2million in prize money as they slipped from fifth to sixth, and could have resulted in them having to start next season in the Europa League qualifiers on July 2.

It was also Steven Gerrard’s send-off. Such a spineless capitulation was the final insult for fans after what they had witnessed since the home defeat to Manchester United in March. The hurt and anger in the away end at Stoke even boiled over into a number of skirmishes over what the club should do next.

Unrest and division rule.

Even among those who believe Rodgers was dealt a bad hand by Luis Suarez’s exit, Daniel Sturridge’s injuries and the restrictions placed on him by the transfer committee, patience has been stretched to the limit.

Added to the mix is the availability of two such high-profile managers as Jurgen Klopp and Carlo Ancelotti – both out of work this summer and looking for a new challenge.

Liverpool find themselves at a crossroads.

The owners must decide whether to stick with their long-term plan, cut Rodgers some slack and write this season off as a costly blip or pay up the three years remaining on his contract and start all over again.

If it’s the former then either Gordon, Tom Werner or John W Henry need to go public and explain their reasons for doing so.

Is it because FSG believe that Rodgers was severely hampered by events beyond his control?

Is it because FSG acknowledge that their transfer policy of prioritising young potential over proven talent is flawed?

Stay silent and the owners will stand accused of merely accepting the status quo – sixth place and mediocrity. That won’t do the manager any favours.

If Rodgers stays, the only way he can start to build bridges with disaffected supporters is if they can see a proper plan to take the club forward.

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/blood-red-winning-over-fsg-9357236

Offline Timbo's Goals

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Re: End of season round table debate (*)
« Reply #159 on: May 30, 2015, 11:12:35 AM »
Even among those who believe Rodgers was dealt a bad hand by Luis Suarez’s exit, Daniel Sturridge’s injuries and the restrictions placed on him by the transfer committee, patience has been stretched to the limit.


A brief throwaway paragraph within that piece yet the one thing in that article that's most worthy of real examination if anybody truly wants to understand why we've ended up with so much post season wailing and gnashing of teeth to go with all the same wailing/gnashing that has happened throughout the season.

Indeed, a real journalist would be scrutinising the impact of what happened or rather what didn't happen as a consequence of the contents of this paragraph.

But as they're not, I'll oblige once again

 ;D

In essence the manager was ultimately compelled to field a team without a striker for virtually an entire season, a team whose entire attacking strategy/momentum constituted Coutinho and Sterling for whom the demands ultimately proved too much and saw them run out of steam from the time they took the field against United resulting in the collapse of our season and a manager who'd already been put through the mill reeling like a drunken sailor from that moment on.

But even drunken sailors deserve the loyalty of their fellow crewmen.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2015, 11:14:43 AM by Timbo's Goals »