Author Topic: Ukraine  (Read 73536 times)

Offline Carly

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #520 on: July 30, 2014, 11:17:16 pm »
Land for gas: secret German deal could end Ukraine crisis



So basically Merkel wants to give Putin everything he wanted in the first place. That will certainly teach him.............. Hes already picking his next target.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2014, 11:32:02 pm by Carly »

Offline El_Pistolero

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #521 on: July 30, 2014, 11:34:52 pm »
Pretty much. A major victory for Putin if that's correct, every thing he wanted from the episode. Ukraine destabilised, Crimea re-acquired, NATO kept away. A helluva lot less smoothly than he wanted I'd imagine, but doubt that matters to him too much.

It may get a lot more hairy before that though. Russia are preparing a UNSC resolution calling for a Russia peacekeeping, 'humanitarian', mission to Ukraine. Obviously the UK and he US will veto that, so we'll see where that leads. Source, Russian Ministry of Foreign Affairs.

Offline Red Beret

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #522 on: July 31, 2014, 09:40:00 am »
So basically Merkel wants to give Putin everything he wanted in the first place. That will certainly teach him.............. Hes already picking his next target.

Sheesh, dangerous to draw analogies I know but that sounds like Munich all over again.  How much of Czechoslovakia do we think it will take to buy Putin off?
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Offline mactifosi

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #523 on: July 31, 2014, 10:30:17 am »
Pretty much. A major victory for Putin if that's correct, every thing he wanted from the episode. Ukraine destabilised, Crimea re-acquired, NATO kept away. A helluva lot less smoothly than he wanted I'd imagine, but doubt that matters to him too much.

It may get a lot more hairy before that though. Russia are preparing a UNSC resolution calling for a Russia peacekeeping, 'humanitarian', mission to Ukraine. Obviously the UK and he US will veto that, so we'll see where that leads. Source, Russian Ministry of Foreign Affairs.

And he has re-located a lot of potential troublemakers to a warzone where many will die.
Many of these Ukrainian separatists Russian volunteers could have and may still form an effective opposition to him.

Offline mactifosi

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #524 on: July 31, 2014, 10:48:47 am »
In other new today, Russia banned all fruit and vegetable imports from Poland.

http://thenews.pl/1/12/Artykul/177686,Poles-take-to-internet-over-Russia-apple-ban

Offline viteslesrouges

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #525 on: July 31, 2014, 12:32:00 pm »
In other new today, Russia banned all fruit and vegetable imports from Poland.

http://thenews.pl/1/12/Artykul/177686,Poles-take-to-internet-over-Russia-apple-ban

Sanctions is as sanctions is. :)
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Offline El_Pistolero

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #526 on: July 31, 2014, 01:27:42 pm »
Video here (Pro-Ukrainian channel) says that the 72nd Brigade is down to 30% of its strength, so around 2,100 losses all-in-all. This is just one of the ATO units surrounded by the seperatists in the south and why the UA put so much into trying to re-take Saur-Mogila over the last few days (and continue to).

However, just pointing this out to compare with the UA's own reported losses of 368 killed and ~1,200 wounded, while seperatists say they're losing about 20-30 men a day, probably double that in reality.

A lot more blood being shed in this war than is reported, I think.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2014, 01:32:32 pm by El_Pistolero »

Offline Yorkykopite

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #527 on: July 31, 2014, 05:10:03 pm »
In other new today, Russia banned all fruit and vegetable imports from Poland.

http://thenews.pl/1/12/Artykul/177686,Poles-take-to-internet-over-Russia-apple-ban

The only vegetable Russia needs is the potato isn't it? So long as the vodka teet is available to be sucked on by the Russian masses they'll be content. That's how Lenin did it in the end.  ;)
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Offline RojoLeón

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #528 on: July 31, 2014, 06:06:28 pm »
The only vegetable Russia needs is the potato isn't it? So long as the vodka teet is available to be sucked on by the Russian masses they'll be content. That's how Lenin did it in the end.  ;)

Yeltsin too. In fact, the neoliberal 'Shock Therapy', brought to Russia from the west saw a precipitous drop in overall quality of life, with an alarming rise in alcoholism and corresponding drop in male average life span.

Good old western friendly, democratic Boris, eh? Dissolving parliament willynilly, even democratically shelling them with tanks at one point. Too drunk to do much other than preside over a theft and resource grab unprecedented in history.

This creates Putin's opportunity - he is a reaction to our mismanagement of post soviet russia. And, he has arrested the rate of decline (but not stopped it). Russian men still die much younger than those living in other countries. I imagine post maidan Ukraine of the next couple of generations will vie with russia for who has lowest male life expectancy though.

Offline bigbonedrawky

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #529 on: July 31, 2014, 07:12:17 pm »
The only vegetable Russia needs is the potato isn't it? So long as the vodka teet is available to be sucked on by the Russian masses they'll be content. That's how Lenin did it in the end.  ;)
Those drunken hoards causing trouble again eh... at least they're not all Cossacks.

Offline viteslesrouges

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #530 on: July 31, 2014, 07:44:03 pm »
The only vegetable Russia needs is the potato isn't it? So long as the vodka teet is available to be sucked on by the Russian masses they'll be content. That's how Lenin did it in the end.  ;)

Home made bath-tub vodka is made with potatoes Yorky, the proper stuff is made with wheat.

Neither of which are vegetables.  :) (but close enough for government work.)
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Offline El_Pistolero

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #531 on: July 31, 2014, 10:39:30 pm »
Strelkov is briefing that Ukraine are preparing to hit the sewage facilities in Donetsk and Lugansk as a 'false-flag' to get the DPR and the LPR branded as 'terrorist organisations'. This strike will release 120 and 160 tonnes of chlorine into the air, killing thousands. Full translation of his briefing here.

Now, I doubt this very much personally. There is 0 logic in it. There were reports of chemical weapons being used at a border checkpoint by Russian artillery earlier today, shortly followed by this announcement by Strelkov. Could pretense to Russian intervention? Maybe. It's bizzare whatever the reason.

Offline Red Beret

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #532 on: August 1, 2014, 08:32:09 am »
Maskirovka.
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Offline mactifosi

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #533 on: August 2, 2014, 09:22:00 am »
For those interested in such things.

50-unit armored convoy entered Ukraine from Russia (with film)

http://maidantranslations.com/2014/07/31/july-31-2014-50-unit-armored-convoy-entered-ukraine-from-russia/

Offline El_Pistolero

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #534 on: August 2, 2014, 11:07:42 am »
'Cept it's wrong. Was posted to reddit too, and Maidantranslations, funnily enough,  mistranslated. Video says 'moving towards Ukraine' and not 'entered'.

Offline bigbonedrawky

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #535 on: August 2, 2014, 10:50:30 pm »
All this talk of sanctions The EU have just lifted the ban on Ukraine in order to sell them some more Arms.
Trouble is they are already in hock to the EU and now they await another installment of this economic stimulus.
The first installment was meant to be spent on building trade and creating jobs but was actually spent on killing its own Civilians in a somewhat indiscriminate manner.
The only jobs they have created for EU citizens so far, have been for right wing Insurgent Mercenaries.
So now that Sanctions are lifted what do you think they are going to spend the second installment on ?
Who thinks the EU will get this money back ? What legitimacy does this new "President" have and will the Ukrainian people be liable to pay this debt ?
The EU put Sanctions (which didn't include Warships Missile parts or "Hunting" gear ) on Vlad the Bad for sticking his nose into his neigbours dispute and supplying arms, yet they finance the very conflict which has claimed so many lives and are about to supply more Arms.   
The biggest hypocrites in all of this have been and will continue to supply Arms to much worse conflicts around the Middle East yet some Sanctions never seem to get off the ground. 

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #536 on: August 2, 2014, 10:57:23 pm »
What legitimacy does this new "President" have?
He was elected by a huge margin in May

Offline RojoLeón

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #537 on: August 3, 2014, 05:56:04 am »
He was elected by a huge margin in May

Just like the Crimean people voted to cede from the Ukraine and go to russia, also by a huge margin  ;)

Offline viteslesrouges

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #538 on: August 3, 2014, 07:18:47 am »
He was elected by a huge margin in May

Yes  ???, he's their oligarch and will make sure that his chocolates get to Europe.
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Offline mactifosi

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #539 on: August 3, 2014, 04:08:20 pm »
All this talk of sanctions The EU have just lifted the ban on Ukraine in order to sell them some more Arms.
Trouble is they are already in hock to the EU and now they await another installment of this economic stimulus.
The first installment was meant to be spent on building trade and creating jobs but was actually spent on killing its own Civilians in a somewhat indiscriminate manner.
The only jobs they have created for EU citizens so far, have been for right wing Insurgent Mercenaries.
So now that Sanctions are lifted what do you think they are going to spend the second installment on ?
Who thinks the EU will get this money back ? What legitimacy does this new "President" have and will the Ukrainian people be liable to pay this debt ?
The EU put Sanctions (which didn't include Warships Missile parts or "Hunting" gear ) on Vlad the Bad for sticking his nose into his neigbours dispute and supplying arms, yet they finance the very conflict which has claimed so many lives and are about to supply more Arms.   
The biggest hypocrites in all of this have been and will continue to supply Arms to much worse conflicts around the Middle East yet some Sanctions never seem to get off the ground.

Yea but the EU has been providing grants to the Ukraine since the early 1990s.
The EU has pumped many billions into that country.

If you want to look it up, it started as the TACIS programme in 1991.


Russia is supplying arms and men to create an artificial conflict.
Before the conflict a majority of 'Russians' voted in opinion polls that they wanted to stay in Ukraine.
There are very few locals participating in the rebellion.

The core group you would expect to support Russia, the Ukrainian-Russian right-wing from poor areas are fervently pro-Ukraine.
And that is the biggest weakness of the Russian operation, the people they hoped would support do not.
They cannot wait to rid themselves of the invaders from Moscow.


But if there was ever any doubt that this is solely a Russian operation.
http://www.jamestown.org/single/?cHash=94777efe016e18741f2d2951183f679d&tx_ttnews[backPid]=7&tx_ttnews[tt_news]=42703#.U95OEEioFYj



Offline viteslesrouges

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #540 on: August 3, 2014, 07:43:05 pm »
Yea but the EU has been providing grants to the Ukraine since the early 1990s.
The EU has pumped many billions into that country.

If you want to look it up, it started as the TACIS programme in 1991.


Russia is supplying arms and men to create an artificial conflict.
Before the conflict a majority of 'Russians' voted in opinion polls that they wanted to stay in Ukraine.
There are very few locals participating in the rebellion.

The core group you would expect to support Russia, the Ukrainian-Russian right-wing from poor areas are fervently pro-Ukraine.
And that is the biggest weakness of the Russian operation, the people they hoped would support do not.
They cannot wait to rid themselves of the invaders from Moscow.


But if there was ever any doubt that this is solely a Russian operation.
http://www.jamestown.org/single/?cHash=94777efe016e18741f2d2951183f679d&tx_ttnews[backPid]=7&tx_ttnews[tt_news]=42703#.U95OEEioFYj

You've previously posted claims such as the bolded part above and I asked you then if you could support it with some facts or links. You didn't then and if you can't supply links to these statements then they are just opinions and should really be identified as such.

As a point I would offer that any facts supplied by your failed link, above, from The Jamestown Foundation be treated with sceptism, don't you?  ;)

The Jamestown Foundation is a Washington, D.C.-based institute for research and analysis, founded in 1984 as a platform to support Soviet dissidents.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Jamestown_Foundation


Founded by William J Casey....................William Joseph Casey (March 13, 1913 – May 6, 1987) was the Director of Central Intelligence from 1981 to 1987. In this capacity he oversaw the entire United States Intelligence Community and personally directed the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA).

Quote
Casey oversaw the re-expansion of the Intelligence Community to funding and human resource levels greater than those existing before the preceding Carter Administration; in particular, he increased levels within the CIA. During his tenure, restrictions were lifted on the use of the CIA to directly and covertly influence the internal and foreign affairs of countries relevant to American policy. Notably, Casey articulated before Congress in December 1981 that covert operations in Nicaragua were in the interest of national security.[11]
This period of the Cold War saw an increase in the Agency's global, anti-Soviet activities, which is started under the Carter Doctrine in late 1980.

Quote
Based on the book, The Terror Network, Casey believed that the Soviet Union was the source of most worldwide terrorist activity in spite of CIA analysts providing evidence that this was in fact black propaganda by the CIA itself. :D Casey obtained a report from a professor who agreed with his view. Casey also turned to Defense Intelligence Agency for a competing analysis, that was ultimately reconciled with the CIA analysts to produce the estimate circulated within the government as "The Soviet Role in Revolutionary Violence."[7] This, in turn, convinced Reagan that there was a threat.[8] After records from the collapsed Communist governments became available in the 1990s it became clear that the disputed report overestimated Communist involvement in terrorist activity.[9]

Quote
Hours before Casey was scheduled to testify before Congress related to his knowledge of Iran-Contra, he was reported to have been rendered incapable of speech, and was later hospitalized.


  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_J._Casey

 ;D you couldn't make up some of the shit this guy was involved in.

I lived in Donbass and often travelled to Dubai, whenever we met people from the ex-Soviet Union my Ukrainian colleagues always said we were from Donbass, never from Ukraine and that was 20 years ago, Kiev was a stone round Donbass necks even then.

« Last Edit: August 3, 2014, 08:05:56 pm by viteslesrouges »
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Offline El_Pistolero

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #541 on: August 4, 2014, 12:52:47 pm »
Apparently 438 Ukrainian soldiers from the 72nd have retreated from the 'southern couldron' into Russia. This is the group that have been bombarded by seperatist and/or Russian artillery for weeks now and are the only ATO troops blocking off the southern Donetsk/Russian border. Source here.

The seperatist have said they were negotiated their surrender for a few days now but I didn't think it was worth posting up on here. The security council have said it's false and they're well equipped and supplied but this is plainly untrue. Quite a massive victory if the seperatists gain control of the whole area (re-opens Donetsk's supply lines).

Quick edit: the security council denies it, the ATO have confirmed it. Communication at its best.
« Last Edit: August 4, 2014, 12:56:40 pm by El_Pistolero »

Offline cdav

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #542 on: August 4, 2014, 06:11:51 pm »
As another example of long standing conflicts from the end of the USSR, fighting is starting again in Armenia:

http://mobile.bloomberg.com/news/2014-08-03/armenia-azeri-war-risks-grow-as-clashes-intensify.html

Azerbaijan is strategically important for Europe as it allows gas to bypass Russia, but it is run by a terrible regime. Too much meddling by all sides, almost becoming multiple proxy wars again

Offline viteslesrouges

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #543 on: August 4, 2014, 08:15:09 pm »
As another example of long standing conflicts from the end of the USSR, fighting is starting again in Armenia:

http://mobile.bloomberg.com/news/2014-08-03/armenia-azeri-war-risks-grow-as-clashes-intensify.html

Azerbaijan is strategically important for Europe as it allows gas to bypass Russia, but it is run by a terrible regime. Too much meddling by all sides, almost becoming multiple proxy wars again

It's never stopped there mate. There are daily sniper shootings across the cease fire line, the only factor preventing a full scale Azeri attack is the Russian bases in Armenia and the likelihood of once again receiving a severe defeat at the hands of the Karabakhis.

Azerbaijan's cousins in Turkey have maintained a total blockade of Armenia since the break up of the USSR, Georgia to the north is not much better leaving only a 15 km border with Iran as Armenia's land link to the outside world.

A case from a few years ago which typifies Azeri attitudes is here :

http://www.economist.com/blogs/easternapproaches/2012/09/hungary-armenia-and-axe-murderer

THE return to home and freedom of Ramil Safarov, an Azeri military officer and convicted murderer, has prompted one of central Europe's biggest diplomatic storms. It has pulled in Russia, America and the European Union, and led to a new war of words in one of the world’s most volatile regions.

Safarov used an axe to murder a sleeping fellow student, an Armenian officer called Gurgen Margarjan, while both men were at a NATO English-language course in Budapest in 2004. Safarov justified himself by referring to Armenian atrocities against Azerbaijan in the conflict of 1988-94. He told the court that Lieutenant Margarjan, an Armenian, had taunted him about the contested region of Nagorno-Karabakh from where he was a refugee.

Hungary sent Safarov home, it says, on the understanding that he would serve the rest of his sentence in prison there. But on arrival in Baku, he was immediately pardoned, hailed as a national hero and promoted to major.
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Offline bigbonedrawky

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #544 on: August 5, 2014, 12:05:01 am »
He was elected by a huge margin in May
Huge margins always make me suspicious and when they depend on X factor style electronic voting systems even more so. (Think Romney voting machine app in the hands of some neo Nazi's )
And he's definitely not someone i'd give a unlimited line of credit to.
 

Offline viteslesrouges

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #545 on: August 5, 2014, 03:37:26 pm »
Ukraine rebel city of Lugansk on verge of 'humanitarian catastrophe'

http://news.yahoo.com/ukraine-rebel-city-lugansk-verge-humanitarian-catastrophe-134114295.html

Kiev (AFP) - The insurgent stronghold of Lugansk in eastern Ukraine is on the verge a humanitarian catastrophe, the mayor warned Saturday, as a siege by government troops has seen water, electricity and food supplies cut off.

The hub of some 420,000 people, the second largest rebel-controlled city after Donetsk, has seen almost daily shelling claim the lives of scores of civilians as Ukraine's military tightens its grip on pro-Russian fighters hunkering down there.

"What is happening in Lugansk today... is a real war that has already taken the lives of over 100 peaceful citizens," the office of mayor Sergiy Kravchenko said in a statement.

"After several months due to the blockade and incessant firing the city now finds itself on the verge of a humanitarian catastrophe."

Seized by rebels in April at the start of a brutal conflict that has now claimed over 1,150 lives, the city close to the Russian border has now seen its water and electricity cut off and Internet and telephone connection severed, the city administration said.

Fuel supplies, including those for the overstretched emergency services, are exhausted and food is running short as most shops except for a few bakeries and butchers have closed as deliveries have been halted.

Pensions have not been paid over the past month and people are struggling to receive their salaries while cash machines have run dry.

Journalists have struggled to enter the city as the worsening fighting has turned once-pleasant tree-lined boulevards into deserted no-mans land, while tens of thousands of residents are thought to have fled.


http://rt.com/news/178068-ukraine-lugansk-humanitarian-crisis/

The eastern Ukrainian city of Lugansk has declared a state of humanitarian catastrophe over a lack of medical supplies, electricity, lighting, mobile and internet communication. Some 250,000 civilians are unable to leave, the statement also says.

Kiev's bloody eastern Ukraine campaign LIVE UPDATES

“As of August 5, Lugansk remains disconnected from electricity. The situation remains critical on the city’s territory. Lugansk is has no energy, is in a state of humanitarian catastrophe. Since Sunday, part of the population in the region’s center have been without light or water, as well as mobile and internet communication,” the statement on the city council website read.

Due to high temperatures and the damage to most community services’ cars, rubbish collection “completely stopped,” which is why the city is basically “on the brink of an ecological catastrophe,” the administration said.

Today 250,000 civilian Lugansk residents - mainly retirees and families with children who don’t have the money to leave the city and who have nowhere to go - have been the hostages to the situation: the people are forced to live in the conditions of armed clashes, with the lacking communications, the remaining nutrition disappearing from the counter of shops and supermarkets which are still working,” according to the statement.

An especially burning issue has become the lack of medical supplies.

“People can’t purchase the essential medical supplies, only a handful of drugstores are operating,” the statement added.

Donbass Community Fund representative Roman Korotenko told Novorossiya press center that Lugansk has descended into “the Stone Age.”

“We are practically in the Stone Age – we have no light, no water, and all this comes amid unstoppable shelling by the Ukrainian army. Electricity is on only for few hours as the power lines are constantly under fire from the military.”

“Many people have left the town – I had almost no one left, only my sister. If you had gone out to your balcony in the evening, there would be a feeling that the city had died out,” a former resident of Lugansk, Olga, who recently moved to more peaceful Kharkov, told RIA Novosti.

Transport communication is no good in the embattled city these days, Olga said.

“The buses go to Kharkov, Starobelsk. <…> In the city, the buses are infrequent, they used to come every five minutes, now it’s half an hour. The drivers won’t keep to the route – it’s dangerous. Also, there is no petrol, and if there is, it’s very expensive. No trolleybuses or tramways are left.”

The shops work several hours a day, and Olga said the prices have increased, there are almost no cigarettes on sale, but it’s still possible to buy food.

In the evenings, people try not to go out. Attacks and clashes are an every-day occurrence.

Another resident Olga, who spoke to RT, said that the situation has recently changed: for the worse.

“The fighting used to be away from residential areas. But now the locals, the children are suffering, they’re scared,” she told RT’s Maria Finoshina.

Many of the residents who stayed in the city are forced to shelter in the basements. There is a shelter in almost every household: it looks like an apartment, but underground.

The locals say they “don’t know what to do anymore” and that “there was no hope left.”

Even the youngest ones share the adults’ fears, as 13-year-old Artyom said.

“I was really scared when the glass started flying. I’m still scared.”

While RT’s Marina Finoshina was speaking with the locals, the electricity went dead.

“Sometimes the wires get ruptured. When it’s in neutral zone, some workers go there to fix the connection. They carry a white flag, but they just get fired on,” local resident Irina explained.

The Ukrainian army has approached the outskirts of Donetsk and Lugansk, preparing to storm these cities, the speaker for the Council of National Security and Defense, Andrey Lysenko, declared, as quoted by Ria Novosti.

“The main forces of the anti-terrorist operation, including the territorial battalions have approached those areas. It doesn’t mean that the storming has already started, but preparation to free the cities is on,” he said.

The attack won’t be announced, only the seizing of the cities, Lysenko added.
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Offline mactifosi

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #546 on: August 5, 2014, 04:09:26 pm »
You've previously posted claims such as the bolded part above and I asked you then if you could support it with some facts or links. You didn't then and if you can't supply links to these statements then they are just opinions and should really be identified as such.

As a point I would offer that any facts supplied by your failed link, above, from The Jamestown Foundation be treated with sceptism, don't you?  ;)

The Jamestown Foundation is a Washington, D.C.-based institute for research and analysis, founded in 1984 as a platform to support Soviet dissidents.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Jamestown_Foundation


Mate, I didn't see your post. I will try look for some articles.

But as are connected to the region you can confirm yourself that there was never any popular support to join Russia.
More autonomy yes but not separation.

I think this article somewhat confirms that view:
http://wnu-ukraine.com/news/politics/?id=4203



But as if it was in doubt that this is a Russian made conflict.
This article shows Russian soldiers doing their active service in Ukraine lol  :wave

http://www.independent.ie/entertainment/trending/news/russian-soldier-accidentally-gives-away-ukraine-location-with-geotagged-instagram-selfies-30485060.html


Here is the Jamestown link again - basically details intercepted phones calls between Russians close to Putin and their proxies in Ukraine.
It confirms their direct contact and influence on the 'separatists'.

=7&tx_ttnews[tt_news]=42703#.U-DyvUioFYj]http://www.jamestown.org/single/?cHash=94777efe016e18741f2d2951183f679d&tx_ttnews[backPid]=7&tx_ttnews[tt_news]=42703#.U-DyvUioFYj

In the first conversation, Aleksei Chesnokov, identified as Deputy Secretary of the ruling United Russia Party’s General Council (a 152-member body, equivalent to the erstwhile Communist Party of the Soviet Union’s Central Committee) discusses the situation with the “Donetsk People’s Republic [DPR] prime minister” Aleksandr Boroday. In the second conversation, the departed chairman of the “DPR’s parliament,” Denis Pushilin, listens in Moscow to the “republic’s deputy prime minister” Andrei Purgin assessing the situation in Donetsk. Both Boroday and Purgin complain in tones of utter exasperation.
« Last Edit: August 5, 2014, 04:11:43 pm by mactifosi »

Offline viteslesrouges

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #547 on: August 5, 2014, 05:48:48 pm »
Mate, I didn't see your post. I will try look for some articles.

But as are connected to the region you can confirm yourself that there was never any popular support to join Russia.
More autonomy yes but not separation.

I think this article somewhat confirms that view:
http://wnu-ukraine.com/news/politics/?id=4203



But as if it was in doubt that this is a Russian made conflict.
This article shows Russian soldiers doing their active service in Ukraine lol  :wave

http://www.independent.ie/entertainment/trending/news/russian-soldier-accidentally-gives-away-ukraine-location-with-geotagged-instagram-selfies-30485060.html


Here is the Jamestown link again - basically details intercepted phones calls between Russians close to Putin and their proxies in Ukraine.
It confirms their direct contact and influence on the 'separatists'.

=7&tx_ttnews[tt_news]=42703#.U-DyvUioFYj]http://www.jamestown.org/single/?cHash=94777efe016e18741f2d2951183f679d&tx_ttnews[backPid]=7&tx_ttnews[tt_news]=42703#.U-DyvUioFYj

In the first conversation, Aleksei Chesnokov, identified as Deputy Secretary of the ruling United Russia Party’s General Council (a 152-member body, equivalent to the erstwhile Communist Party of the Soviet Union’s Central Committee) discusses the situation with the “Donetsk People’s Republic [DPR] prime minister” Aleksandr Boroday. In the second conversation, the departed chairman of the “DPR’s parliament,” Denis Pushilin, listens in Moscow to the “republic’s deputy prime minister” Andrei Purgin assessing the situation in Donetsk. Both Boroday and Purgin complain in tones of utter exasperation.

I can certainly confirm that there has always been a significant proportion of Donbass who wanted to join Russia in the early 90s. Kiev was never popular and I'm sure Western Ukraine wouldn't have been sorry to see Donbass go.

But really mate, are you going to persist with using The Jamestown Foundation as a source? Did you look at the links to it and it's founder, ex-CIA director?  ::)

As regards Russian supplying the rebels, they are probably but also the rebels are pretty well supplied by the Ukrainian army and deserters.

Kiev should call for an immediate and total ceasefire to enable dialogue for the future of the region. A federal state would probably be acceptable to all sides and is perhaps the only practicable outcome but if the current military situation continues to be escalated by Kiev any chance of a peaceful and lasting solution is diminished.

Enough people have died already.
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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #548 on: August 6, 2014, 10:32:57 am »
Well in that case why don't the rebels call for a ceasefire and a political settlement then?
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Offline viteslesrouges

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #549 on: August 6, 2014, 10:48:52 am »
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/05/ukraine-revolution-dream-stalling-war-east

Ukraine's revolution dream stalling due to war in the east and political stasis
President Yanukovych is long gone, but war-weariness and a sense of politics as usual are fostering whispers of a 'new Maidan'


Nearly six months after the decisive battles between protesters and police on Kiev's Independence Square, the charred barricades of burned tyres and twisted metal still stand in memorial to the more than 100 people who died in the February clashes.

The Maidan movement achieved its main goal: the ousting of President Viktor Yanukovych. But in the months since, Ukraine has lost Crimea to Russian annexation and seen a civil war take hold in the east of the country, with Moscow's support.

Petro Poroshenko, a chocolate tycoon who threw his lot in with the protests from the start, came to power in May's presidential elections promising a new type of political culture. But the conflict in the east has deflected attention and financial resources away from the renewal of government and governance, and analysts warn that serious economic problems are just around the corner.

Poroshenko and his government now face criticism from two sides. On the one hand, eager to end the standoff in the east as soon as possible and faced with an enemy that appears to have a constant supply of heavy weaponry from Russia, Ukrainian forces have resorted to tactics that have been strongly criticised by international bodies.

On the other hand, there is a growing sense in Ukrainian society that not enough has changed since Maidan, and a radicalisation of the mood has increased mutterings for a "new Maidan".

"A lot will depend on how quickly the war in the east is finished or whether it drags on for months," says political analyst Volodymyr Fesenko. "We are entering a very unpredictable period for Ukraine, and a lot about the future of the country will be decided in the next few months."

The UN says that more than 1,100 people have died since the "anti-terrorist operation" began in the east of the country several months ago. While the Ukrainian army has made significant gains against the armed separatists in recent weeks, it has come at the cost of an increasingly high civilian death toll.

Most controversial is the apparent use of Grad rockets by the Ukrainians. Both the rebels and the pro-Ukrainian forces have Grads, which fire up to 40 missiles in quick succession and are notoriously inaccurate. Kiev denies that it has ever used heavy artillery on residential areas, and has complained about reports by international rights organisations suggesting otherwise.

However, Ole Solvang, a researcher with Human Rights Watch (HRW) who spent last week documenting cases in Donetsk and the surrounding region, said there was "little doubt" Ukrainian forces had used Grad rockets in residential areas. HRW notes that the rebels also have Grad rocket systems and may well have used them on civilian populations.

"We know the rebels are using Grads as well, but this does not excuse the government," Solvang said.

Authorities in the city of Luhansk, under siege from the Ukrainian army, said on Tuesday that a humanitarian catastrophe is approaching, with no reliable supplies of electricity or drinking water. Hundreds of thousands of people have fled their homes, mainly across the border to Russia.

However, as public opinion becomes further radicalised by the war, there is little room for soul-searching, and voices urging restraint are not welcome. Increasingly there is a feeling that the unrest in the east needs to be wrapped up as soon as possible.

"Of course there has to be other elements to a solution for the east as well as the military solution," says Melnyk. "But until there is a military solution, everything else is impossible."

As the war has ground on, public opinion in western and central Ukraine has radicalised. Oleg Lyashko, an eccentric MP whose speciality is making raids into the east with a band of black-clad paramilitaries, stripping captives to their underwear, putting bags on their heads, and lecturing them on camera about their traitorous behaviour, has seen his popularity grow from zero to around 20%, making him a serious political force.

"When there is fear in society, demagogues flourish, and Lyashko's military populism is very popular at the moment," says political analyst Volodymyr Fesenko.

The reliance on volunteer battalions run by men such as Lyashko is mainly due to the appalling state of the Ukrainian army, which analysts say has been destroyed by negligence and corruption in the two decades since independence. There are also battalions funded by oligarchs, and those affiliated to political groups, including Right Sector, a group with neo-fascist tendencies.

The proliferation of these battalions also poses important questions for the postwar settlement, and Poroshenko will need to find a way to integrate the groups either into the army or back into civilian life when the conflict in the east is over.

"A new Maidan could pose a danger to the very nature of Ukrainian statehood, and of course there will be a major issue about what happens to all of these volunteer battalions when they return from the east. They are heavily armed, and many have links to oligarchs or political forces," says Fesenko. On Monday, there was an early warning of what could be to come, when the Kiev-1 battalion, back from the front, raided a cafe in central Kiev in order to evict other activists who had allegedly taken it over.

On Kiev's Independence Square, the tent camp still stands, guarded by barricades on all sides. Souvenir stands sell doormats and toilet rolls bearing the image of Yanukovych, and of Russian President Vladimir Putin.Just a few hundred people remain, sweltering in the summer heat, a far cry from the tens of thousands who stood there during the icy winter evenings prior to Yanukovych's fall. Amid much debate about whether it is time to reopen the square to normal traffic and pull down the tent camp, its endurance is a reminder to those in power of the fragility of their position.

For those who stood on Maidan and were the driving force behind the change of government in February, there are mixed feelings about how things have gone since.

Myroslav Gryshyn, a 28-year-old who stood on the barricades at Maidan from the start and later spent six weeks fighting near the rebel stronghold of Slavyansk with Ukraine's national guard, said he felt the February revolution had "changed the country's political culture" and given many people a sense that they were not powerless.

He said it was unrealistic to expect a complete transformation overnight, and that it could take Ukraine a decade or longer to become a "normal country", but nevertheless sounded a note of warning for Poroshenko: "Things are different now, we know that if we really want to change the government, we can do it with no problems."

Yehor Sobelev, a journalist and Maidan activist who now leads the Lustration Committee – a body that wants to force all Ukrainian public officials to undergo checks for past links to corruption and misgovernance – says Poroshenko has not done nearly enough during his time in charge.

"I see little evidence that he wants to change the corrupt system, just that he wants to lead it," says Sobelev.
"I think there will be a new Maidan led by the people who come back from the front lines in the east, who have seen the effect that corruption and mismanagement has first hand. And I'd be surprised if all our current political leaders make it through that Maidan with their lives intact."
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Offline viteslesrouges

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #550 on: August 6, 2014, 11:01:28 am »
Well in that case why don't the rebels call for a ceasefire and a political settlement then?

We can knock that tennis ball across the net for a few weeks or months or try to look at solutions.  ::)

A government elected by a supposedly massive majority surely has the moral responsibility for all of it's citizens and therefore should initiate talks.

Though I can understand perhaps why the separatists are reluctant, bring aware of the fine people they are struggling against :

Quote
Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko vowed to "find and destroy" pro-Russian rebels who killed 23 servicemen and wounded nearly 100 in a missile attack on Friday.

Quote
"All those who used the Grad against the Armed Forces of Ukraine will be found and destroyed," Poroshenko said in a statement on his website.

"For every soldier's life, the militants will pay with scores and hundreds of their own.
Not a single terrorist will avoid responsibility; each will get what they deserve," he said.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/07/11/us-ukraine-crisis-idUSKBN0FG1A920140711

I might be wrong but possibly the last people to use threats like Poroshenko's in Ukraine were the SS in WW2.

Would you buy chocolates from that man?



I found out yesterday that my sister-in-law and nephew are now refugees in the Azov Sea area, they couldn't renew their passports in Lugansk as the passport office has been destroyed by rocket fire. Puts a 3 month delay here in a bit of perspective eh?
« Last Edit: August 6, 2014, 11:04:45 am by viteslesrouges »
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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #551 on: August 6, 2014, 12:01:52 pm »
Ukraine didn't start this and to attempt a negotiation with Russian backed rebels risks looking weak politically.  Let the Rebels make the first move, if the civilians in the areas they hold matter so much to them.  Allow Russia or an EU brokered cease fire, followed by an armistice.

As I said, though, I don't see why Ukraine should bend their knee to the separatists.
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Offline El_Pistolero

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #552 on: August 6, 2014, 01:19:14 pm »
Looking weak politically is less desireable than killing hundreds to thousands of your own people? Keiv could've ended this before it even became an armed stand-off by entering dialouge, instead they deployed the army.

The whole thing should've been avoided straight away with Maidan actually going with the Feburary Agreement.

Offline viteslesrouges

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #553 on: August 6, 2014, 01:47:35 pm »
Ukraine didn't start this and to attempt a negotiation with Russian backed rebels risks looking weak politically.  Let the Rebels make the first move, if the civilians in the areas they hold matter so much to them.  Allow Russia or an EU brokered cease fire, followed by an armistice.

As I said, though, I don't see why Ukraine should bend their knee to the separatists.

Your comment gives me an uncomfortable feeling as to how you view the lives of people.  :(

Kiev has consistently rebutted attempts at talks and if the fighting continues "looking weak politically" would be the least of Kiev's problems.

There's some similarities between what's happening currently in Gaza, Syria and Ukraine with widely differing views on rights and wrongs, quite bizarre really.
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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #554 on: August 6, 2014, 03:31:34 pm »
From a political and military standpoint Kiev has no reason to negotiate.  Russia has agitated and encouraged the separatists.  Russia has sent personnel and equipment across the border.  From Kiev's standpoint any pause for negotiation would likely develop into a stalling tactic that would enable the separatists time to catch their breath.  After the blatant aggression displayed in Crimea, I say again: why should Kiev back down.

The separatists could end this now with a simple: "We surrender".
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Offline RojoLeón

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #555 on: August 6, 2014, 03:40:22 pm »
From a political and military standpoint Kiev has no reason to negotiate.  Russia has agitated and encouraged the separatists.  Russia has sent personnel and equipment across the border.  From Kiev's standpoint any pause for negotiation would likely develop into a stalling tactic that would enable the separatists time to catch their breath.  After the blatant aggression displayed in Crimea, I say again: why should Kiev back down.

The separatists could end this now with a simple: "We surrender".

What is 'Kiev', though?

The president was elected in suspicious circumstances given the armed, neofascist thugs spread throughout western Ukraine. He's a corrupt oligarch with ties to US State Department.

Victoria Nuland of the US State Department admits to having spent $5billion on disruption and eventual regime change.

The prime minister resigned when parliament voted down the privatization and sell off of Ukrainian energy industries to western corporations. He dissolved parliament and there is no government in place.

The president is ruling by dictat with no constitutional support for waging a civil war. The country is bankrupt and in massive debt to Russia, the EU and the IMF.

Yes Russia is helping and supplying the Russian speaking eastern Ukrainians, but in the context of the EU/USA and western energy companies trying to instigate chaos and carve the Ukraine up for it's resources.
« Last Edit: August 6, 2014, 03:42:58 pm by RojoLeón »

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #556 on: August 6, 2014, 03:47:11 pm »
Irrelevant.  It's not the fault of the EU, US, CIA etc that most Eastern European countries aren't overly fond of Russia.  The previous regime was equally bent in favour of Putin's shiny ass.

Again, I ask the question: after having Crimea aggressively stolen right out from under them, why should Kiev - the current, largely recognise legitimate government of Ukraine, for all its flaws - negotiate with separatists who want to carve up the country in Russia's favour in stead of the US' favour?
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Offline RojoLeón

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #557 on: August 6, 2014, 03:56:06 pm »
The 'separatists', don't want to separate at all. They just don't want to have the land beneath them sold off for cents on the ruble, to Chevron et all.

There was zero aggression re Crimea. They voted to leave. You want to point fingers at sham elections, go ahead. It's no more a sham than the presidential and parliamentary elections in 'Kiev'.

 Kiev - the current, largely recognise legitimate government of Ukraine, for all its flaws

I repeat - there is no government, for all of it's flaws (past tense). There is one man with zero constitutional power to wage war, and there are a host of unelected advisors who are defacto ruling Ukraine (and butchering their own citizens) with no legal backing.

It's insane. There should be a ceasefire until elections are held, at the very least.

It disturbs me that people crying this and that about russia, don't actually realize that the much vaunted EU friendly government don't actually exist.
« Last Edit: August 6, 2014, 04:08:40 pm by RojoLeón »

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #558 on: August 6, 2014, 04:29:22 pm »
The 'separatists', don't want to separate at all. They just don't want to have the land beneath them sold off for cents on the ruble, to Chevron et all.

Semantics.  Shall we call them rebels instead?  If they don't want to separate then they will have no problems stacking arms and surrendering, because without more massive Russian support they're not going to win and continued resistance will only prolong the suffering of those civilians caught in the crossfire.

Quote
There was zero aggression re Crimea. They voted to leave. You want to point fingers at sham elections, go ahead. It's no more a sham than the presidential and parliamentary elections in 'Kiev'.

Hundreds of dubious militia show up out of nowhere and surround military bases which then forces said military to withdraw? Zero fatalities does not equal zero aggression or intimidation. 

Quote
I repeat - there is no government, for all of it's flaws (past tense). There is one man with zero constitutional power to wage war, and there are a host of unelected advisors who are defacto ruling Ukraine (and butchering their own citizens) with no legal backing.

And I repeat: for all the distaste as to how he got into the current position, he's the guy who everybody has to negotiate with.

Quote
It's insane. There should be a ceasefire until elections are held, at the very least.

It disturbs me that people crying this and that about russia, don't actually realize that the much vaunted EU friendly government don't actually exist.

Of course regular government is on hold in the middle of a military crisis where Russia is trying to use proxies to redefine a sovereign nations' borders.  I never talked about the EU.  The issue here is that the separatists have lost and should stand down to prevent further suffering of the citizens in their territory,

Again I ask, and remain unanswered: why should a nation that just had a large chunk of it's territory robbed by a large neighbour cow tow to "rebels" who believe their land would be sold to Chevron? 

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Offline RojoLeón

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #559 on: August 6, 2014, 04:42:39 pm »
Why should people in East Ukraine allow non Russian foreign nationals to take all their reasources and leave them an environmental catastrophe to fix?

It's a carve up - you think russia is doing the carving and tacitly support non Russian foreigners to take the lions share of the pie instead.

The situation in Crimea is very similar to what happened in the larger country. 'Hundreds of dubious militia show up out of nowhere and surround military bases electoral polling stations which then forces said military electorate to withdraw vote for The EU and US state department hand picked candidates?'

for all the distaste as to how Crimea got into the current position, it's the situation everybody has to negotiate around.

There is no government in Kiev. There is every reason to stop fighting.

The eastern Ukrainians are static - they are hemmed in and being shelled by a military force with zero legal mandate. If they stop shelling, then the fighting stops.

Russia aren't the only bad actors here. How about you apportion some common sense to understanding there is illegal military action, murdering hundreds of people and that it needs to stop. Then people can negotiate with your guy (singular) in Kiev (and his unelected, foreign non Russian proxies).