Author Topic: Liverpool's Midfield  (Read 1121458 times)

Offline Haggis36

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #8000 on: March 18, 2015, 03:38:12 PM »
Agree with the general point, but Luis Alberto was basically signed as a kid with potential. I don't know why his signing was treated by so many as such a big deal for the whole future of the club. Chelsea do six or seven of these every year and you never see the lad again.

My point was more that I think Luis Alberto was bought primarily because of his goal return for Barca B more than anything else, had he not scored 11 goals the season before I very much doubt we'd have bought him, particularly given that he lacks one of the biggest attributes Rodgers values in attacking players (pace) and never really looked like he fitted into our team anywhere. Just my opinion though.


Offline swordfishtrombone

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #8001 on: March 18, 2015, 03:42:47 PM »
He is in talks with Barca for 2016 according to the ballbag!

How can they even do that with a transfer ban? Surely they're banned from negotiating with players, not just registerng new players?

Offline jepovic

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #8002 on: March 18, 2015, 03:45:35 PM »
And yet roughly half of transfers at basically every club fail.
Our transfer stats are worse than that, at least when it comes to strikers. Borini, Aspas and Balotelli failed, Sturridge succeeded. Lambert was a special case. But we just have to try again, there's no other option.

I also don't see much connection between price and performance. We've bought some 20M-players this summer who have done alright, but not more. Our best signing, Can, was less than 10M. Sturridge and Coutinho weren't terribly expensive either. Everybody talks about getting top notch players, meaning very expensive, but in the long run I have a feeling that we'd be better off getting more 10-15M players.

Offline Shaved Crossbar

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #8003 on: March 18, 2015, 04:02:18 PM »
And yet roughly half of transfers at basically every club fail.

I don't know who's ever sat down and worked out a criteria for 'half of transfers fail', even if it is a common thought and one I'll accept here.

To think though, that we can't influence that figure, primarily learning from our own bloody mistakes in Lambert, Balotelli and Aspas, is wrong. We should aim for and expect better than 50%, especially when our choice isn't really limited by circumstances or money.

Rarely translates between leagues though. Cisse, Kuyt, even Sean Dundee, were all extremely prolific scorers in other leagues before coming here.

And likewise, some players improve once playing in this league, and others carry on goalscoring heavily, like Bony. Besides, you'll tell me that it won't translate through leagues and others will tell me that PL players are overrated and overpriced, blah blah. It's not a valid point imo. Judge the players on their attributes, style of play and stats. When you do that, there's plenty of options for us out there and they'd look better options than Lambert, or ESPECIALLY Balotelli were.

All I'm saying is that we've gone wrong before, this is the transfer committee's fourth time of asking (post Sturridge) to identify a good enough striker for us, it's really not all too difficult to pick a quick, intelligent, hungry, technically sound young striker rather than Lambert, Aspas or Balo. If they do that, and the player fails, then meh we can look into it but it won't be nearly as stupid a mistake as buying Balo.

Offline Nessy76

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #8004 on: March 18, 2015, 04:03:48 PM »
I don't know who's ever sat down and worked out a criteria for 'half of transfers fail', even if it is a common thought and one I'll accept here.

To think though, that we can't influence that figure, primarily learning from our own bloody mistakes in Lambert, Balotelli and Aspas, is wrong. We should aim for and expect better than 50%, especially when our choice isn't really limited by circumstances or money.

And likewise, some players improve once playing in this league, and others carry on goalscoring heavily, like Bony. Besides, you'll tell me that it won't translate through leagues and others will tell me that PL players are overrated and overpriced, blah blah. It's not a valid point imo. Judge the players on their attributes, style of play and stats. When you do that, there's plenty of options for us out there and they'd look better options than Lambert, or ESPECIALLY Balotelli were.

All I'm saying is that we've gone wrong before, this is the transfer committee's fourth time of asking (post Sturridge) to identify a good enough striker for us, it's really not all too difficult to pick a quick, intelligent, hungry, technically sound young striker rather than Lambert, Aspas or Balo. If they do that, and the player fails, then meh we can look into it but it won't be nearly as stupid a mistake as buying Balo.

Well pop your CV in the post then, and I'm sure you'll have yourself a nice scouting job for a leading Premier League club in no time.
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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #8005 on: March 18, 2015, 04:14:36 PM »
How can they even do that with a transfer ban? Surely they're banned from negotiating with players, not just registerng new players?

They have a history of tapping up players and bending the rules/cheating. If indeed Vietto has agreed to join Barca, it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest.
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Offline Shaved Crossbar

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #8006 on: March 18, 2015, 04:16:26 PM »
That's oversimplistic though.

If you want to talk about statistics, a fair few of the players we've bought who have "failed" have been purchased based on statistics that simply haven't held up when players have arrived here. Downing is a notable example, but I think Aspas and to a degree Luis Alberto were lower budget versions of similar mistakes.

Looking down goalscoring charts doesn't work either. Last season the top scorer in Serie A was Immobile but he's had a torrid year in a new league this season, scoring only 3 goals. Likewise his new strike partner Ramos was prolific in the same league the season before, but has scored only 2 goals this year in a different team. Granted, Dortmund are having a terrible season, but goals don't necessarily translate that way. Jesus look at Soldado - four 20 goal seasons in a row, including a 30 goal season right before he left. His record was not only excellent but very consistent, and yet he's been utter dogshite for Spurs, scoring about 2 non penalty league goals or something ridiculous like that.

As for the players you've mentioned I've never seen the former two play, though my impression is that they are largely unobtainable. I'd swerve Aubameyang who strikes me as incredibly wasteful and vastly overrated and it's been widely speculated that Lacazette will struggle to maintain his scoring rate (not least with moving out of a shit French league). I'm sure he'd still be a good striker, but maybe not for the price you'd need to get him.

Buying in any old player on a top scorers list isn't the way forward. Hell, if you did that for last year or even the year before you could very well have ended up with some absolute duds.
I'm not saying that. I said (as a semi-pisstake) that I could go down a top scorers list and identify a whole host of players that;

- score goals
- play our style of football
- are obtainable
- are worth it financially

And I know you can, because I just did it, scrolled through the first 90 top scorers in Europe (to fill the statistics criteria above), looked up the ones which seemed attainable under 25, looked at their passing stats, yadda yadda yadda.

That's me, sitting on my computer, watching at the very most, one European game a week. It's rudimentary as fuck but it shows it can be done by any old mug. Maybe we have to compromise. Maybe we have to pay Fekir more because his dad has said stuff about having a typical French boner for Wenger. Maybe offer to pay more than Vietto's release clause. Maybe we buy a player that's 25-26 instead of the usual 19-22 age group.

I'm just not having it that it's difficult to identify players.


Offline ElstonGunn

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #8007 on: March 18, 2015, 04:17:27 PM »
I don't know who's ever sat down and worked out a criteria for 'half of transfers fail', even if it is a common thought and one I'll accept here.

To think though, that we can't influence that figure, primarily learning from our own bloody mistakes in Lambert, Balotelli and Aspas, is wrong. We should aim for and expect better than 50%, especially when our choice isn't really limited by circumstances or money.

And likewise, some players improve once playing in this league, and others carry on goalscoring heavily, like Bony. Besides, you'll tell me that it won't translate through leagues and others will tell me that PL players are overrated and overpriced, blah blah. It's not a valid point imo. Judge the players on their attributes, style of play and stats. When you do that, there's plenty of options for us out there and they'd look better options than Lambert, or ESPECIALLY Balotelli were.

All I'm saying is that we've gone wrong before, this is the transfer committee's fourth time of asking (post Sturridge) to identify a good enough striker for us, it's really not all too difficult to pick a quick, intelligent, hungry, technically sound young striker rather than Lambert, Aspas or Balo. If they do that, and the player fails, then meh we can look into it but it won't be nearly as stupid a mistake as buying Balo.
It's from the Tomkins Times. Here's a couple links. (1) (2)

Suffice it to say I don't think it's nearly so easy as you make out. Regardless, if "quick, intelligent, hungry, technically sound" is all you're looking for, then say hello to Danny Ings!

I'm not saying that. I said (as a semi-pisstake) that I could go down a top scorers list and identify a whole host of players that;

- score goals
- play our style of football
- are obtainable
- are worth it financially

And I know you can, because I just did it, scrolled through the first 90 top scorers in Europe (to fill the statistics criteria above), looked up the ones which seemed attainable under 25, looked at their passing stats, yadda yadda yadda.

That's me, sitting on my computer, watching at the very most, one European game a week. It's rudimentary as fuck but it shows it can be done by any old mug. Maybe we have to compromise. Maybe we have to pay Fekir more because his dad has said stuff about having a typical French boner for Wenger. Maybe offer to pay more than Vietto's release clause. Maybe we buy a player that's 25-26 instead of the usual 19-22 age group.

I'm just not having it that it's difficult to identify players.



I'm not following this at all. All you've proven is that you can identify players who sound like they'd be good. Of course our scouts are aware of them. That's, like, not even in the same ballpark as proving you can identify players who are obtainable and would be worth the money for Liverpool after they actually moved.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2015, 04:19:54 PM by ElstonGunn »

Offline Shaved Crossbar

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #8008 on: March 18, 2015, 04:18:36 PM »
Well pop your CV in the post then, and I'm sure you'll have yourself a nice scouting job for a leading Premier League club in no time.

Sure as hell would do a better job than whichever tools decided to buy Balotelli.

It's not hard to ask for them to learn from their mistakes

Offline SerbianScouser

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #8009 on: March 18, 2015, 04:27:39 PM »
Sure as hell would do a better job than whichever tools decided to buy Balotelli.

It's not hard to ask for them to learn from their mistakes
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Offline ElstonGunn

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #8010 on: March 18, 2015, 04:28:08 PM »
Who cares. We`re boss again.
Excellent response.  ;D

Offline spider-neil

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #8011 on: March 18, 2015, 04:29:47 PM »
I still think Balotelli has a role to play if he can accept life on the bench.

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #8012 on: March 18, 2015, 04:34:32 PM »
Suffice it to say I don't think it's nearly so easy as you make out. Regardless, if "quick, intelligent, hungry, technically sound" is all you're looking for, then say hello to Danny Ings!
I read both the articles, and whilst the second article is true, the fact is that Brendan has manipulated our squad and furthered our young players' development so much that we don't need to spend like a behemoth. We have managed to compete without and we are managing. We don't need to spend heavily this summer either - just astutely.

I think it's made out to be much more difficult than it is. As it is, I wouldn't mind Ings, but like Holymoly said I don't think he scores quite as many goals as we might need, given Sturridge's injury record. I agree that he can be classed alongside Welbeck and maybe Remy.

My ideal scenario would be to bring in Ings, keep Origi here for 6 months before loaning him to a PL team, make Raheem the 'fourth choice', and then buy a goalscorer, whether that be a wide forward, striker or CAM, that can fill in for Sturridge's inevitable absences (and if he's young, hopefully succeed Daniel at some stage).

Offline Shaved Crossbar

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #8013 on: March 18, 2015, 04:35:12 PM »
Who cares. We`re boss again.

Lets try and make sure we're boss next year too

Offline ElstonGunn

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #8014 on: March 18, 2015, 04:39:01 PM »

My ideal scenario would be to bring in Ings, keep Origi here for 6 months before loaning him to a PL team, make Raheem the 'fourth choice', and then buy a goalscorer, whether that be a wide forward, striker or CAM, that can fill in for Sturridge's inevitable absences (and if he's young, hopefully succeed Daniel at some stage).
Except for the caveat that I'd wait to see how Origi gets on before deciding to loan him out, I agree with that completely. I also happen to think you get better value for money, and are more likely to find someone who will fit our style of play, by spending big on the goalscoring AM/wide forward who could play up front if needed than on a pure striker.

Offline Gnurglan

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #8015 on: March 18, 2015, 05:46:38 PM »
Next season if Brendan goes out and spends big money on a central midfielder (with Gerrard leaving) they would have options of Henderson, Allen, Can and Lucas and this new CM. That will push Lucas right down the pecking and he may leave if wants first team football which I don't see happening next season.

It also depends on how we see Can's future. If we kept playing Can in defence, there would still be room for Lucas to play a fairly big role.

Should we decide to move Can to midfield, that would give us more to think about. Therefore, I reckon Rodgers is quite happy to leave Can in defence and use him as a backup for CM.

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Offline Gnurglan

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #8016 on: March 18, 2015, 05:58:49 PM »
I read both the articles, and whilst the second article is true, the fact is that Brendan has manipulated our squad and furthered our young players' development so much that we don't need to spend like a behemoth. We have managed to compete without and we are managing. We don't need to spend heavily this summer either - just astutely.

I think it's made out to be much more difficult than it is. As it is, I wouldn't mind Ings, but like Holymoly said I don't think he scores quite as many goals as we might need, given Sturridge's injury record. I agree that he can be classed alongside Welbeck and maybe Remy.

My ideal scenario would be to bring in Ings, keep Origi here for 6 months before loaning him to a PL team, make Raheem the 'fourth choice', and then buy a goalscorer, whether that be a wide forward, striker or CAM, that can fill in for Sturridge's inevitable absences (and if he's young, hopefully succeed Daniel at some stage).

I know it's a thread for midfield, but why would we want to bring in Ings when we have Origi joining? There is limited room in our squad as it is.

We play 3-4-3 and if we forget the three defenders, we have so many players.
Moreno, Manquillo, Henderson, Lucas, Allen, Coutinho, Markovic, Lallana, Sterling, Ibe, Sturridge, Origi, Borini, Lambert, Balotelli,... that's 15 players for the midfield/attacking roles.

If we want to add a player for the front three, knowing that the yardstick is Lallana, Sterling, Coutinho and Sturridge, we need to aim for someone who is better than either of them. We're talking a 20 goals/season player, or a Silva/Mata/Hazard, that is a leading PL player. Ibe, Markovic and Origi can represent future potential. We need edge, not more potential or more options.

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Offline ElstonGunn

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #8017 on: March 18, 2015, 06:24:20 PM »
I know it's a thread for midfield, but why would we want to bring in Ings when we have Origi joining? There is limited room in our squad as it is.

We play 3-4-3 and if we forget the three defenders, we have so many players.
Moreno, Manquillo, Henderson, Lucas, Allen, Coutinho, Markovic, Lallana, Sterling, Ibe, Sturridge, Origi, Borini, Lambert, Balotelli,... that's 15 players for the midfield/attacking roles.

If we want to add a player for the front three, knowing that the yardstick is Lallana, Sterling, Coutinho and Sturridge, we need to aim for someone who is better than either of them. We're talking a 20 goals/season player, or a Silva/Mata/Hazard, that is a leading PL player. Ibe, Markovic and Origi can represent future potential. We need edge, not more potential or more options.
Because Origi (and Ings, and whoever else we buy upfront) might flop, and we desperately need to add at least one player who scores goals. You can't just project out the squad without pricing in the very good chance Origi isn't ready and any given signing doesn't work out. Ings costs peanuts and, despite not being an elite talent, has all the attributes to fit in here. Worst case scenario is we're out £3-6m and cheap (for us) wages on someone who doesn't play. Best case scenario, he makes up for our other options failing to fire and saves our season by being everything we hoped Borini could be when we signed him.

It's also very, very likely to happen by the reports (and if it doesn't, it'll almost certainly be because City or United offered him more money), so we might as well start getting used to it.

Offline Shaved Crossbar

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #8018 on: March 18, 2015, 06:26:06 PM »
I know it's a thread for midfield, but why would we want to bring in Ings when we have Origi joining? There is limited room in our squad as it is.

We play 3-4-3 and if we forget the three defenders, we have so many players.
Moreno, Manquillo, Henderson, Lucas, Allen, Coutinho, Markovic, Lallana, Sterling, Ibe, Sturridge, Origi, Borini, Lambert, Balotelli,... that's 15 players for the midfield/attacking roles.

If we want to add a player for the front three, knowing that the yardstick is Lallana, Sterling, Coutinho and Sturridge, we need to aim for someone who is better than either of them. We're talking a 20 goals/season player, or a Silva/Mata/Hazard, that is a leading PL player. Ibe, Markovic and Origi can represent future potential. We need edge, not more potential or more options.

Ings is a great signing for a number of reasons; mainly that he's free and somewhat PL proven. Origi isn't proven yet and any other striker we buy may not be a success, or at least take time to establish themselves. Call Ings a transition signing, get him in for a season or two as just a PL proven alternative, and sell him on for a tidy profit if he doesn't progress to Liverpool's level. This season we have four strikers and Sterling, and next season we can do the same.

I agree completely that we need edge, and hopefully our new 'frontline' attacker can provide that (along with Sturridge returning to form). But if he does a Balo, then at least by signing Ings we're not completely fucked/reliant on a kid in the event of a Sturridge injury. There is a bit of excess with the Ings signing but he's on a free (so even the worst case scenario is us selling him on for 2-3 million after not giving him any game time). 4 competitions again next year.

I think Ibe and Markovic are going to be playing out wide for us for quite a while, rather than in the front three. Assuming we keep hold of our players, which I think we will.

Offline spider-neil

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #8019 on: March 18, 2015, 06:42:41 PM »
Whoever we buy for up front should have pace. Frankly pretty much everyone we have bought in a striker position who didn't have pace (or extreme technical ability) has been a disappointment.

Offline Haggis36

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #8020 on: March 18, 2015, 06:53:08 PM »
Ings is a no-brainer if only for the fact that you could bring him in and probably flip him for a profit a year later even if he didn't play a single game. Aside from that I think he's a tidy little player, he's still pretty young, and he's actually got surprisingly good technique and link up play to add to his goals. He's not the paciest but Rodgers obviously thinks there is something there to work with. He's also dirt cheap which means we can spend more in other areas.

I have to say I'd be more happy with it if it was a case of him or Origi with a more proven player coming in as well, but given we have both that looks massively unlikely.

Given that I imagine Borini, Balotelli and Lambert will all be sold, striker is probably the only position where we don't have genuine depth. Other parts of our squad look much better in that regard meaning that if we're adding players they should be of the highest quality available.

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #8021 on: March 18, 2015, 09:48:40 PM »
Will never understand why we should buy players mainly because they are cheap. We have the depth in numbers already, it's the quality that is lacking. I realise it isn't easy to find the right players, and sometimes you perhaps have to compromise if we lack some depth in a position, but I don't believe we are at that stage now.

Even if we offload quite a lot of players, I expect Sterling, Sturridge, Origi, Markovic, Lallana, Coutinho to still be here, and those are the ones we use in the forward roles (not including youngsters like Ibe, Ojo and Wilson). That is 6 players, and sure, we do need another player who can lead the line. But that should be a real quality forward, who is better than Sterling in that role and someone who really adds something to that group of players. Fair enough if Ings is that player, it would be great if he was, but I haven't seen anyone - not even those who rate him - that would be perfectly comfortable with bringing in just him and no one else. It is always him plus another striker or goalscoring attacking midfielder (who can play up front as well), and then I don't see the point anymore. Then Ings is just another option, who might be of better quality than Borini and Lambert, but one who barring a massive injury crisis would probably play less than what they have this season (when we've been without Sturridge for most of it).

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #8022 on: March 18, 2015, 10:43:02 PM »
Whoever we buy for up front should have pace. Frankly pretty much everyone we have bought in a striker position who didn't have pace (or extreme technical ability) has been a disappointment.

To be fair, balotelli has pace. Mobility is the problem with him as his off the ball movement is shit. I'd say we need players who have both which is why I'm not so keen on ings.
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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #8023 on: March 18, 2015, 10:46:30 PM »
I've got a feeling that Origi is the real deal, from a couple of games I watched but mainly his interviews there seems to be something about him.
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I've got a feeling that Origi is the real deal, from a couple of games I watched but mainly his interviews there seems to be something about him.

Offline Kopenhagen

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #8024 on: March 18, 2015, 10:51:12 PM »
Ings is a great signing for a number of reasons; mainly that he's free and somewhat PL proven. Origi isn't proven yet and any other striker we buy may not be a success, or at least take time to establish themselves. Call Ings a transition signing, get him in for a season or two as just a PL proven alternative, and sell him on for a tidy profit if he doesn't progress to Liverpool's level. This season we have four strikers and Sterling, and next season we can do the same.

Not to be pedantic, but he wouldn't be free: we'd have to pay Burnley compensation due to his age.

I'd have no real problem if we brought in Ings to take, say, Borini's place in the squad. I think he's a decent player, not quite our level, but he'd only be filler and, as Elston said, we could easily flip him for profit or break even if he doesn't do a job (you can just imagine some PL club at the bottom, starved of talent, willing to pay a silly fee for him). Even in the case of the highly likely Sturridge injury, I doubt he'd be ahead of Raheem or Origi in the rotation. If we're relying on Ings as our only available option, then yeah, we'd have a problem; but he won't be our only option. Are there players I'd rather have than Ings? Sure. But I'd rather we brought in a top drawer midfielder (or at least one with a very high ceiling) and a quality ball-playing centre half to complement Sakho.
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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #8025 on: March 18, 2015, 11:01:44 PM »
If Sturridge gets another 4-5 month injury next season, would people be happy with Ings or Origi being our striker for a title challenge?
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Offline ElstonGunn

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #8026 on: March 18, 2015, 11:41:47 PM »
If Sturridge gets another 4-5 month injury next season, would people be happy with Ings or Origi being our striker for a title challenge?
Would be perfectly happy with Sterling or Depay as the "striker" for a title challenge.  ;D

Will never understand why we should buy players mainly because they are cheap. We have the depth in numbers already, it's the quality that is lacking. I realise it isn't easy to find the right players, and sometimes you perhaps have to compromise if we lack some depth in a position, but I don't believe we are at that stage now.

Even if we offload quite a lot of players, I expect Sterling, Sturridge, Origi, Markovic, Lallana, Coutinho to still be here, and those are the ones we use in the forward roles (not including youngsters like Ibe, Ojo and Wilson). That is 6 players, and sure, we do need another player who can lead the line. But that should be a real quality forward, who is better than Sterling in that role and someone who really adds something to that group of players. Fair enough if Ings is that player, it would be great if he was, but I haven't seen anyone - not even those who rate him - that would be perfectly comfortable with bringing in just him and no one else. It is always him plus another striker or goalscoring attacking midfielder (who can play up front as well), and then I don't see the point anymore. Then Ings is just another option, who might be of better quality than Borini and Lambert, but one who barring a massive injury crisis would probably play less than what they have this season (when we've been without Sturridge for most of it).
This isn't really the logic, or at least not my logic. I have a real problem with this planning where we say, we have X number of players for this position, we really can only afford to give time to 1 more, so we should only buy 1 player. What if we buy one player and he turns out to be Balotelli? Or what if we "learned our lesson" from buying a striker who doesn't fit and that means we buy the new Borini?

The beautiful thing about Ings is that you essentially get to buy another lottery ticket--i.e. bring in a transfer that may or may not work out--without having to risk anything. Ings' career so far is roughly the same as Berahino's, a player who would cost at least 4 times as much, and reports have suggested we like. Sure, you can see that Berahino probably has a bit more about him, but let's just say for arguments sake they're roughly equivalent. Either way, you've got a striker who might be good enough for a top 6 team and also very well might not. Wouldn't it be nice to take the risk on Ings and then also have money left over to take the risk on a Berahino? (Or £20m goalscorer of your choice.) You've just doubled your chances of getting the striker you need without making your budget appreciably bigger.

Offline Chris~

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #8027 on: March 19, 2015, 12:53:36 AM »
If Sturridge gets another 4-5 month injury next season, would people be happy with Ings or Origi being our striker for a title challenge?
Depends who else we bought, but I think we'd be fine with those two. It's not like Sturridge is playing particularly well at the moment, or scoring much and we've been in title challenge form over the past 17 games/4 months.

Offline ReeNah

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #8028 on: March 19, 2015, 01:20:48 AM »
Ings seems perfect. Young, cheap, motivated, pace, skill, finishing is good. He'll only get better and can play a great role as a squad player.

What about Ibra? lol
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Offline Sangria

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #8029 on: March 19, 2015, 01:29:25 AM »
Would be perfectly happy with Sterling or Depay as the "striker" for a title challenge.  ;D
This isn't really the logic, or at least not my logic. I have a real problem with this planning where we say, we have X number of players for this position, we really can only afford to give time to 1 more, so we should only buy 1 player. What if we buy one player and he turns out to be Balotelli? Or what if we "learned our lesson" from buying a striker who doesn't fit and that means we buy the new Borini?

The beautiful thing about Ings is that you essentially get to buy another lottery ticket--i.e. bring in a transfer that may or may not work out--without having to risk anything. Ings' career so far is roughly the same as Berahino's, a player who would cost at least 4 times as much, and reports have suggested we like. Sure, you can see that Berahino probably has a bit more about him, but let's just say for arguments sake they're roughly equivalent. Either way, you've got a striker who might be good enough for a top 6 team and also very well might not. Wouldn't it be nice to take the risk on Ings and then also have money left over to take the risk on a Berahino? (Or £20m goalscorer of your choice.) You've just doubled your chances of getting the striker you need without making your budget appreciably bigger.

Not when you've alreadey spent that money you've saved on a position where you can guarantee you won't get many goals. 20m on any position which doesn't yield an appreciable number of goals is a waste, given the squad we have. And if you're looking to spend that amount on a "top midfielder", I'll ask where you're planning to play him. Henderson looks like being our next captain, and he's got 1 of 2 spots secured. What he's not so good at is reliably and consistently getting the basics done whatever the situation. If the "top midfielder" plays alongside an Allen-type (I'm going with the popular assumption that Lucas will be gone), then it means Henderson (our next captain, remember) loses his spot. If he plays alongside Henderson, then he'd better be good at doing the basic stuff, and if that's what he principally does, then you're looking at no more than 5 goals a season for a 20m outlay, most probably fewer. If he's another Henderson-type, then Henderson's productivity is severely curtailed (see his stats alongside Gerrard vs alongside AN other this season).
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Offline Ken-Obi

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #8030 on: March 19, 2015, 01:31:12 AM »
If Lucas is ok rotating with Allen, he should stay - no questions asked.

That said, my gut feeling is similar to many on here - he'll leave in summer.
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Offline rscanderlech

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #8031 on: March 19, 2015, 01:33:04 AM »
Dont know why we are discussing strikers in this thread but we need one more top goalscorer. It doesnt have to be a striker - Messi as an inside forward would work - but quality is the most important thing. If we ever want to win titles and compete with PSG and Barcelona in the CL, we have to aim higher.

Whether its Depay or its Dybala or Vietto, players like those will raise out level and make things messy for defences in the way that Suarez and Sturridge did last year.

In the next bracket are Aubameyang, Lacazette and so on. My
Favourite is Dybala. He has the ability to be top 5 players in the world-level.

Goalscorer is the most important role on the pitch if you want to be a top level team and its more
Important than getting a good midfielder.

But we have the money for both. So I would be tempted to pass on Ings, unless we want another striker as well.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2015, 05:12:32 AM by rscanderlech »

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #8032 on: March 19, 2015, 01:40:59 AM »
If Sturridge gets another 4-5 month injury next season, would people be happy with Ings or Origi being our striker for a title challenge?

In the current system? Yeah. Sterling, Ings and Origi would be fine by me.

I honestly think that our current system isn't that reliant on the man leading the line, as long as he can play the way we want to. The system is key for me, with the right players in the right position, we're not that much reliant on individual brilliance, in terms of numbers no-one has been massively amazing anyway. Origi is one who offers the potential to be a Sturridge player, whereas Sterling and Ings (from what I've gathered), can play the system well and grab a decent amount of goals.

Sturridge was out for 4-5 months this season, but our upturn in form hasn't had much to do with his return. If we'd been playing this system from the moment he got injured, I kind of think we'd be making a better challenge of it than City?

Offline ElstonGunn

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #8033 on: March 19, 2015, 02:26:05 AM »
Not when you've alreadey spent that money you've saved on a position where you can guarantee you won't get many goals. 20m on any position which doesn't yield an appreciable number of goals is a waste, given the squad we have. And if you're looking to spend that amount on a "top midfielder", I'll ask where you're planning to play him. Henderson looks like being our next captain, and he's got 1 of 2 spots secured. What he's not so good at is reliably and consistently getting the basics done whatever the situation. If the "top midfielder" plays alongside an Allen-type (I'm going with the popular assumption that Lucas will be gone), then it means Henderson (our next captain, remember) loses his spot. If he plays alongside Henderson, then he'd better be good at doing the basic stuff, and if that's what he principally does, then you're looking at no more than 5 goals a season for a 20m outlay, most probably fewer. If he's another Henderson-type, then Henderson's productivity is severely curtailed (see his stats alongside Gerrard vs alongside AN other this season).
Ugh, if you want to respond to posts I made a day ago, try responding to the actual post because I think you're either mischaracterizing what I've said or I'm not understanding what you're actually responding to. I also don't understand what buying a midfielder has to do with anything here. How does having spent £15m (what I actually said) on a midfielder  mean I haven't doubled my odds of success with attackers when I buy Ings and someone else for £20m? Obviously if you have to choose between a forward and a midfielder, then buy the forward. I'm against spending £30m plus on anyone unless it's a special circumstance (e.g. Sanchez last summer), and I don't think it would make a lot of sense to buy 3 attackers and Origi.

Offline Ken-Obi

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #8034 on: March 19, 2015, 02:39:24 AM »
Ings seems perfect. Young, cheap, motivated, pace, skill, finishing is good. He'll only get better and can play a great role as a squad player.
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Offline kcbworth

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #8035 on: March 19, 2015, 02:43:49 AM »
See, this is the argument I really disagree with, the people who claim our season turned around when Kolo and Lucas came into the team, rather than when we switched to 3 at the back. Yes, we got 7 points out of Stoke (H), Leicester (A) and Sunderland (H). We were still utterly toothless, didn't particularly control the games (except against Sunderland, who didn't even try to compete) and the Leicester game in particular was terrible, terrible football, we were just lucky enough to come away with a win despite getting outshot 2-1 against the worst team in the league.. Was all that better than Crystal Palace away? Sure, but I'd argue we were never going to keep being as bad as that, no matter who played the following games. If we kept playing like we did in that run of 3 games all year, we'd be in 8th or 9th.

In contrast, the change to 3421 saw an immediate uptick in our performances. We outplayed United at Old Trafford, except of course in the all-important striker and goalkeeper positions. Despite losing 3-0 I'd say that was probably one of our top 2 or 3 performances of the season up to that point, at least in midfield. Then, obviously, we went on our current run. The before and after 3421 performances were absolute night and day, whereas the Stoke, Leicester, Sunderland run was pretty much of a piece with the previous, terrible performances.

None of which is to say Lucas did not have a big effect on improving the side (though I'm not sure Kolo did, to be honest). He certainly did, as he played very well in the 3421, and was definitely better than Gerrard for the role. But the dramatic, frankly incredible improvement that saw us go from a midtable side to the best performing team in England was much, much broader than any 1 or 2 (or 3, or 4!) players.

FWIW, I disagree with you on this (seeing as disagreeing with each other and talking down our own players seems to be the thing to do on this thread  :wave)

I agree with this, by the way, and you've all convinced me to some extent. It would be hard to replace Lucas, and there's no need to have more player turnover than necessary.

Oh... well there you go ;)

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #8036 on: March 19, 2015, 06:38:45 AM »
We should be buying a player to replace Sturridge as our main man.
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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #8037 on: March 19, 2015, 07:38:25 AM »
Ings seems perfect. Young, cheap, motivated, pace, skill, finishing is good. He'll only get better and can play a great role as a squad player.

What about Ibra? lol
I don't know about cheap. He's in an extremely good position to negotiate a great salary.

Ibra would have been awesome. He has like 11 league titles in 13 seasons. Imagine how he would link up with Coutinho and Sterling...
Won't happen of course.

Offline Halcyon Lissome

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #8038 on: March 19, 2015, 08:41:46 AM »
I don't know about cheap. He's in an extremely good position to negotiate a great salary.

Ibra would have been awesome. He has like 11 league titles in 13 seasons. Imagine how he would link up with Coutinho and Sterling...
Won't happen of course.

I think Ibra would fare better than Lambert and Balotelli up front; but he lacks movement which seems crucial to the way we play.

He's not the paciest but Rodgers obviously thinks there is something there to work with. He's also dirt cheap which means we can spend more in other areas.

He's very fast, and he has got really good movement and is really persistent with creating an option. Theoretically, he sounds like one of those rare gems you uncover that come from a lower league team that could end up scoring 20+goals in a system like ours.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2015, 08:45:14 AM by Halcyon Lissome »
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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #8039 on: March 19, 2015, 09:15:47 AM »
With regards to Ings, I think Brendan is determined to have a striker who offers something 'different'. Sturridge, Sterling and Origi are pretty much cut from the same cloth. I still think that 'different' striker should be Balotelli but I think it is becoming increasingly likely that Brendan will cut his losses and move him on.