Author Topic: RAWK Round Table LFC 3-1 CCFC  (Read 15758 times)

Offline leivapool

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,837
  • Pass and move!
Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 3-1 CCFC
« Reply #80 on: December 23, 2013, 08:51:47 AM »
Have to be quick as work beckons,  but has anyone considered Sakho's lack of English as part of the issue?  It's obvious that he knows he has a 2 v 1 situation,  but in that split second of realsiation  it's also obvious that he hasn't the language to communicate that to anyone quickly enough with Kolo not in the team.  Anyone who speaks a little of a foreign language knows that in times of pressure you're ability to speak a few words disappears.  I wonder if this happened to Sakho?

Furthermore,  Mutch? the goal scorer got free more than once............who was meant to be marking him all game at set plays?
Rossiter absolutely bossed it tonight. Really believe he'll end up playing more games this season than Lucas.


Henderson won't make it here. Sorry but he won't and won't

Offline Sangria

  • Ally Machoist
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 12,460
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 3-1 CCFC
« Reply #81 on: December 23, 2013, 09:01:05 AM »
Have to be quick as work beckons,  but has anyone considered Sakho's lack of English as part of the issue?  It's obvious that he knows he has a 2 v 1 situation,  but in that split second of realsiation  it's also obvious that he hasn't the language to communicate that to anyone quickly enough with Kolo not in the team.  Anyone who speaks a little of a foreign language knows that in times of pressure you're ability to speak a few words disappears.  I wonder if this happened to Sakho?

Furthermore,  Mutch? the goal scorer got free more than once............who was meant to be marking him all game at set plays?

Whatever the possible English language problems Sakho has, it's obvious that I don't have the football language to even begin to discuss what went on. The discussion in this and the Skrtel thread has been a football education for me.
"i just dont think (Lucas is) that type of player that Kenny wants"
Vidocq, 20 January 2011

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=267148.msg8032258#msg8032258

Offline stockdam

  • The sheer loftus-cheek of the man.....
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 9,938
  • Walk on through the wind, Walk on through the rain
Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 3-1 CCFC
« Reply #82 on: December 23, 2013, 09:49:17 AM »

Frame 3:



But Skrtel loses his nerve, and as the ball is being kicked, makes a dash towards the goal that puts every Cardiff player onside, and removes any doubt from the official's mind.

Except Skrtel only played one player onside and he wasn't involved in the goal. Just before this frame, Lucas and Henderson stepped up putting all of the cardiff players offside but just as the kick was taken they stepped back which put all but one back onside. So irrespective of what Skrtel had done, none of the two at the back post were offside.

Sakho has the best view along the line and he is yards ahead of it and leaves his two men free. He needed to be in line and also to shout for help. The line drawn in orange is our attempt to hold a line but as can be seen it's not parallel to the goal-line which results in three Cardiff players goal-side but on-side. Sakho was caught out and not Skrtel as he was never forming the line nor was he in a position to stop the ball getting to the goal scorer.

I'm not sure what Johnston was doing as he wasn't doing anything standing outside the box with no Cardiff player anywhere near him. We had too many players drawn towards the ball and not enough in positions where they could cut out the cross. None of the Cardiff players were in a position to run to the front post yet we had three players marking this area (including Johnston).

It's not Skrtel's fault that Cardiff scored but a lack of organisation and awareness............that to me indicates a lack of practice and coaching. I've no doubt that Rodgers will tighten this up but for me this is where we have an obvious weakness that can be easily exploited. We are poor at defending crosses and corners and we never really look comfortable.
#JFT96

Offline blert596

  • or is it Simon Peg, Advert: Buy incontinence bed pads from www.incontinencechoice.co.uk Wash & disposable. Trade & Public.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 8,384
Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 3-1 CCFC
« Reply #83 on: December 23, 2013, 10:05:54 AM »
Johnson was situated to cover the pass to the Cardiff lad next to the liney
All the badge kissing in the world don't make up for the fact that they are, frankly, not Liverpool Football Club. It's not their fault. Its just how it is.

Offline stockdam

  • The sheer loftus-cheek of the man.....
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 9,938
  • Walk on through the wind, Walk on through the rain
Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 3-1 CCFC
« Reply #84 on: December 23, 2013, 10:10:21 AM »
Johnson was situated to cover the pass to the Cardiff lad next to the liney

Ok that's right........I didn't see that guy so I take back what I said about Johnston. He did appear to be in a very strange position but now that I see the "invisible" Cardiff player then it makes sense.
#JFT96

Offline mabbympb

  • Branded he was a man who ran!
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,654
  • Red and White Kop
    • Instagram
Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 3-1 CCFC
« Reply #85 on: December 23, 2013, 11:10:19 AM »
Who is this Johnston fella people keep speaking of? ???

Offline Alonso_The_Assassin

  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 9,159
    • Just Words
Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 3-1 CCFC
« Reply #86 on: December 23, 2013, 11:42:08 AM »
A game of two halves really. Cardiff sat behind the ball for the first 25 minutes and made us work hard to break them open. As soon as we did - with the ever-growing partnership between Luis and Jordon - they came out to play a little more which put us in our groove for the second and then a third. The latter is starting to become a regularity to the point where celebration almost turns into laughter and a shake of the head. It's just ridiculous how a man can continue to baffle with the goals he scores. Luis Suarez; to say the man is a genius on a football pitch may just redefine the very term.

The second half, Cardiff were a little more forward thinking and employed some guile. Yes they scored a goal and yes, they continued to heap pressure from set piece plays, but you know what? Perhaps 18 months ago we'd have crumbled and come away with a point as a result, as strange as that sounds. Okay, so big Mart was at fault for the goal and is prone to the odd mistake, but it's the old mantra; Score more goals and make less mistakes equals 3 points. I know we're all used to keeping clean sheets and wins do feel better when a clean sheet is kept. But at the end of the day 3 points is 3 points regardless of how you get them. It's not like the other teams around employ a model to defend set pieces. Every team in the top half this season has had difficulty in this area and as painful as it is to watch, it's something we can hopefully improve on in the coming weeks.

Does anyone else feel safe as a bank when Sakho is in the starting line-up? I haven't been more comfortable since big Sami and Carra were our proverbial brick wall all those moons ago. The lad can fucking play.

Bring on City. Let's make more shockwaves through the league, eh? YNWA.

Offline apocalypse

  • Kopite
  • *****
  • Posts: 991
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 3-1 CCFC
« Reply #87 on: December 23, 2013, 12:18:05 PM »
Nobody brings in defensive coaches. It just doesn't exist to any significant degree in football. Why do people keep suggesting it like it's a vital piece of the coaching puzzle that everyone else has and we don't?

Football Manager has defensive coaches. Guess people think it applies in real life

Offline stockdam

  • The sheer loftus-cheek of the man.....
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 9,938
  • Walk on through the wind, Walk on through the rain
Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 3-1 CCFC
« Reply #88 on: December 23, 2013, 12:33:08 PM »
Who is this Johnston fella people keep speaking of? ???

Nobody but auto-correct thinks he exists.
#JFT96

Offline jason42

  • .....aka jason23
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 14,643
  • THE REAL TRUTH- "Liverpool fans were not to blame"
Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 3-1 CCFC
« Reply #89 on: December 23, 2013, 12:40:39 PM »
You're assuming we're man-to-man marking, though? If we were supposed to play an offside trap (which the ranting and hand signals of Sakho while the free kick was being prepared would suggest), then nobody is really marking anybody - they keep an eye on them, but the key is to keep squeezing, hold the line on the kick, and step out. The line is being made and players have to be seen, but nobody is really supposed to mark anybody. Which again, tells me that we don't work on these things in training, because confusions such as that are easily cleared up after a few reps.

Lets look at the kick again, in three frames.

Frame 1:



We see as the kick is being prepared, that Sakho is gesticulating across the line. In the offside line are (1) Kelly, (2) Skrtel, (3) Lucas, (4) Henderson and (5) Sakho.

Frame 2:

Here we can see that Skrtel has pulled up to the line, and played Campbell into an offside position. At this point, all is rosy, and all we have to do is hold our line on the kick, or even step out, if we're brave:



Frame 3:



But Skrtel loses his nerve, and as the ball is being kicked, makes a dash towards the goal that puts every Cardiff player onside, and removes any doubt from the official's mind. Remember, when you run the trap, you are relying on a third party playing along, which is why hands-raised and verbal calls are synonymous with offside traps. Skrtel broke the line, and this made the two players behind Sakho dangerous and legitimate threats as the ball was kicked, instead of being players interfering with the play and forcing an offside call.

This is an easy tactic to get right but it needs many repetitions on the training pitch, which the team clearly didn't have. It also needs one more part of it to be most effective, and that would have negated Skrtel's need to move on the kick. Sterling and Allen are standing marking nobody - they could have acted as counter-runners, so as the line steps out, they are making tracking runs, so that any missed call is at least mitigated by oncoming pressure.

Mignolet is very, very, very low down on the "liability" totem pole here. As with everyone else, he probably expected a disciplined offside trap and was caught short by Skrtel's run. This one was on Skrtel in part, and on Rodgers for probably a greater part, because there is no need for professional players to be that disorganised on a trap, unless it's something they haven't worked on much in training.


Just what I was going to say but of course you say it so much better. This was being discussed in the Post Match thread but it got locked before the discussion could really develop. IIRC you, me and one or two others were stating the above theory while others were blaming Sakho for being caught in a 2 on 1.

Playing the offside trap is easy but as your photos show, all it takes is for one person to lose his nerve and everything goes tits up. It is a shame that we cannot produce an image to show what would have happened if Skrtel had held his 2nd position and not dropped back but that is assuming that the Cardiff players hold their positions as well....
Quote from: macca888 link=topic=276522
Came to this thread a bit late, but from what I've read, the real relationship trouble is not between you and your girl, but between you and a small box of Tampax. You obviously need something more substantial in your life like a huge Costco sized box of jam rags, seeing as you're such a massive fucking quim

Offline kred

  • No new LFC topics
  • Main Stander
  • ***
  • Posts: 150
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 3-1 CCFC
« Reply #90 on: December 23, 2013, 12:45:16 PM »
It is impressive how the MF is playing right now.  The control of the ball and space, the tempo change, and the timing of the penetration for attack is marvellous.  It is like the 80's, but more.  It's just two games but the MF was very adaptable, and control teh games in a calm fashion.  Spurs played a high line and was easily bypassed.  Cardiff tried to hold the MF but was gradually forced off.  The passing and movement that compressed the opponents play, switching sides, creating space to run into, really really good.  Sometimes there's still a slight bit of hesitation from one or two players, but there's almost no more premature attacks which loses the ball. 

The HAL combination is very promising.  All three are very intelligent footballers that are forming the core to control the game.  This is ealry days still.  I can't imagine what it'll be like when they flow even more fluently, and with the rest of the team clicking in even more.  It's leaving me salivating. 

The backline is also linking up very well.  Playing the ball out of defense so nicely.  Sure there were glitches, but most of the time very composed.  Even Skrtel is passing theball better now.  And Sakho is showing good linkup with Lucas.

The control, ball retention and ability to quickly regain the ball with the smart pack hunting are really frustrating, intimidating even to the opponents.  Allen and especially Lucas break opponents play and regain the ball in their half, that creates unrelenting pressure.  No wonder Paulinho blew his head. 

Suarez was going it alone quite often last season, perhaps lacking other real options.  But now he's well supported and gelling more with the team.  With the forward three clicking in with the MF, it's no wonder there's so much more goal threats the team is posing.  Almost everytime we get the ball, there's a genuine goal threat at the end of the passing cycle. 

Early days, let's have more, much much more!

Offline Al 666

  • "I haven't got a clue." 23/03/2020......Mo Money, Mo Problems to invent. Number 1 is Carragher. Number 2 is Carragher. Number 3 is Carragher. Number 4 is Carragher. Likes to play God in his spare time.
  • RAWK Scribe
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 20,475
  • JFT 96
Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 3-1 CCFC
« Reply #91 on: December 23, 2013, 12:45:25 PM »
You're assuming we're man-to-man marking, though? If we were supposed to play an offside trap (which the ranting and hand signals of Sakho while the free kick was being prepared would suggest), then nobody is really marking anybody - they keep an eye on them, but the key is to keep squeezing, hold the line on the kick, and step out. The line is being made and players have to be seen, but nobody is really supposed to mark anybody. Which again, tells me that we don't work on these things in training, because confusions such as that are easily cleared up after a few reps.

Lets look at the kick again, in three frames.

Frame 1:



We see as the kick is being prepared, that Sakho is gesticulating across the line. In the offside line are (1) Kelly, (2) Skrtel, (3) Lucas, (4) Henderson and (5) Sakho.

Frame 2:

Here we can see that Skrtel has pulled up to the line, and played Campbell into an offside position. At this point, all is rosy, and all we have to do is hold our line on the kick, or even step out, if we're brave:



Frame 3:



But Skrtel loses his nerve, and as the ball is being kicked, makes a dash towards the goal that puts every Cardiff player onside, and removes any doubt from the official's mind. Remember, when you run the trap, you are relying on a third party playing along, which is why hands-raised and verbal calls are synonymous with offside traps. Skrtel broke the line, and this made the two players behind Sakho dangerous and legitimate threats as the ball was kicked, instead of being players interfering with the play and forcing an offside call.

This is an easy tactic to get right but it needs many repetitions on the training pitch, which the team clearly didn't have. It also needs one more part of it to be most effective, and that would have negated Skrtel's need to move on the kick. Sterling and Allen are standing marking nobody - they could have acted as counter-runners, so as the line steps out, they are making tracking runs, so that any missed call is at least mitigated by oncoming pressure.

Mignolet is very, very, very low down on the "liability" totem pole here. As with everyone else, he probably expected a disciplined offside trap and was caught short by Skrtel's run. This one was on Skrtel in part, and on Rodgers for probably a greater part, because there is no need for professional players to be that disorganised on a trap, unless it's something they haven't worked on much in training.


To be fair though PoP you can't really play the trap anymore because of the change in the offside laws. If it is a premeditated routine by Cardiff and they are looking for the far post then the two near the penalty spot can stay in offside positions but not attempt to go for the ball. All the two at the back post have to do is remain onside and the two near the penalty spot are irrelevant.

For me we aren't playing an offside trap but trying to hold a line to try and stop Cardiff crowding the keeper.
One thing does need to be said: in the post-Benitez era, there was media-led clamour (but also some politicking going on at the club) to make the club more English; the idea being that the club had lost the very essence of what it means to be ‘Liverpool’. Guillem Ballague 18/11/10

Offline PhaseOfPlay

  • Well red.Tom Jones Lover. AKA Debbie McGee. Apparently.
  • RAWK Writer
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 28,365
  • Under 7s Coaching Manual Owner.
Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 3-1 CCFC
« Reply #92 on: December 23, 2013, 01:10:39 PM »
Football Manager has defensive coaches. Guess people think it applies in real life

Really???

Say it ain't so.

Is that where this idea is coming from?
Better looking than Samie.

Offline Stubby!

  • Not on my watch.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 10,723
  • He asked for it!
Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 3-1 CCFC
« Reply #93 on: December 23, 2013, 01:17:27 PM »
Sorry if I'm missing something here, but is the suggestion that if we'd held the line everything would've been rosy defensively, regardless of Sakho having 2 players to mark?

What if Cardiff had asked the player furthest left (behind Sakho) to step another 5 yards off him - he'd have been in acres of space in the penalty box and could be easily picked out by crossing it over the top of the huddle of players near the D.
Sit down, shock is better taken with bent knees.

Offline ArchieC

  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,701
  • Once a Red Always a Red WE BLEED RED!!
Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 3-1 CCFC
« Reply #94 on: December 23, 2013, 01:20:02 PM »
Football Manager has defensive coaches. Guess people think it applies in real life

Exactly right!

In regards to the goal conceded I personally think Skrtel got drawn into Caulker's space maybe because of his marking on him previously or could be that he thought he was the main aerial threat and that Caulker had that space behind Kelly may have made his decision to follow him and close that space.  It's gotta be down to split second decision making that's all I can think of on that.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2013, 01:28:51 PM by ArchieC »
We all bleed RED!!

Offline Timbo's Goals

  • Petrified of THE BEAST
  • RAWK Scribe
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 8,586
  • JFT96
    • Timbos Liverpool
Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 3-1 CCFC
« Reply #95 on: December 23, 2013, 01:30:12 PM »
It is impressive how the MF is playing right now.  The control of the ball and space, the tempo change, and the timing of the penetration for attack is marvellous.  It is like the 80's, but more.  It's just two games but the MF was very adaptable, and control teh games in a calm fashion.  Spurs played a high line and was easily bypassed.  Cardiff tried to hold the MF but was gradually forced off.  The passing and movement that compressed the opponents play, switching sides, creating space to run into, really really good.  Sometimes there's still a slight bit of hesitation from one or two players, but there's almost no more premature attacks which loses the ball. 

The HAL combination is very promising.  All three are very intelligent footballers that are forming the core to control the game.  This is ealry days still.  I can't imagine what it'll be like when they flow even more fluently, and with the rest of the team clicking in even more.  It's leaving me salivating. 

The backline is also linking up very well.  Playing the ball out of defense so nicely.  Sure there were glitches, but most of the time very composed.  Even Skrtel is passing theball better now.  And Sakho is showing good linkup with Lucas.

The control, ball retention and ability to quickly regain the ball with the smart pack hunting are really frustrating, intimidating even to the opponents.  Allen and especially Lucas break opponents play and regain the ball in their half, that creates unrelenting pressure.  No wonder Paulinho blew his head. 

Suarez was going it alone quite often last season, perhaps lacking other real options.  But now he's well supported and gelling more with the team.  With the forward three clicking in with the MF, it's no wonder there's so much more goal threats the team is posing.  Almost everytime we get the ball, there's a genuine goal threat at the end of the passing cycle. 

Early days, let's have more, much much more!

Agreed. Especially the salivating bit. Good post.

I think the collective contribution in this area of HAL plus Coutinho and Sterling with Luis also dropping back makes the entire thing simply so fluid and elusive that most sides will struggle against it. There simply is no single kingpin since all six are interchanging the responsibility for that role. It's the ultimate midfield democracy. All for one, one for all. Sure it's still early days. Sure we've had false dawns before. Yet for 2 games now the thing has worked so beautifully and idyllically you'd swear it has been functioning at this level for years rather than mere weeks.

I honestly think the six of them will be relishing the next two games. Of course, a huge test awaits at Maine Road [refuse to use the stadium name of the current fraudulent imposters who just like the West London fraudsters have made a fuckin mockery of the beautiful game with their depraved squillions] but in my current mind's eye I really can see City struggling to cope with the fluidity, movement and pressing.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2013, 01:37:36 PM by Chrimbo's Goals »

Offline End Product

  • doesn't always come out of the right end
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,229
Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 3-1 CCFC
« Reply #96 on: December 23, 2013, 01:32:56 PM »


For me we aren't playing an offside trap but trying to hold a line to try and stop Cardiff crowding the keeper.

Agreed, earlier in the footage, Sakho marks the edge of the box as were the line will be held, just no one listened.     

Offside traps are normally like this are they not ?
 <a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/yTxjAHphqyM?fs=1" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/yTxjAHphqyM?fs=1</a>
No time for caution.

Offline PhaseOfPlay

  • Well red.Tom Jones Lover. AKA Debbie McGee. Apparently.
  • RAWK Writer
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 28,365
  • Under 7s Coaching Manual Owner.
Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 3-1 CCFC
« Reply #97 on: December 23, 2013, 01:52:37 PM »
To be fair though PoP you can't really play the trap anymore because of the change in the offside laws. If it is a premeditated routine by Cardiff and they are looking for the far post then the two near the penalty spot can stay in offside positions but not attempt to go for the ball. All the two at the back post have to do is remain onside and the two near the penalty spot are irrelevant.

For me we aren't playing an offside trap but trying to hold a line to try and stop Cardiff crowding the keeper.

I don't disagree - but the point of the trap isn't solely to catch players offside, but to have them try to get back onside and have them running away from the goal, so that the ball effectively goes to dead space or the keeper. I think this is what Sakho was furious about, and what gave Cardiff the benefit when Skrtel dropped. I'm not saying I think it was a clever plan, but having played in and coached a lot of offside traps, I recognise all the signs, and I think the intention was more to set and hold a line, rather than mark individual players. If you look back at the Cardiff free kick that started the run of play leading to Sterling's goal, you see the same thing, so it wasn't accidental that there was a 2v1 on Sakho - because the players weren't really man-marking, they were setting a line:



We can see here that Johnson has a 2v1 situation, and nobody corrects it. In the next frame, one of the Cardiff players moves behind the line, and nobody picks him up:



So that tells me that we were trying operate some sort of offside line, some sort of zonal set piece defending, and that Skrtel jumped the gun on the one that led to the goal.

As I said, I don't disagree that it's risky - "live by the trap, die by the trap" as the old saying goes. But people here need to realise what was happening when the goal was scored. We were clearly playing zonally, and it clearly hasn't been rehearsed enough.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2013, 01:54:28 PM by BalesofHay »
Better looking than Samie.

Offline PhaseOfPlay

  • Well red.Tom Jones Lover. AKA Debbie McGee. Apparently.
  • RAWK Writer
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 28,365
  • Under 7s Coaching Manual Owner.
Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 3-1 CCFC
« Reply #98 on: December 23, 2013, 01:56:26 PM »
Agreed, earlier in the footage, Sakho marks the edge of the box as were the line will be held, just no one listened.     

Offside traps are normally like this are they not ?
 <a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/yTxjAHphqyM?fs=1" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/yTxjAHphqyM?fs=1</a>

They can be. That was an extreme but excellently played offside trap. But that is an active offside trap. A passive offside trap is when you let the other team wander offside and don't track them back. There isn't one single way to operate the trap.

Having said that, what do you think the real difference was between our offside plan and Wolves'?
Better looking than Samie.

Offline DanA

  • misses the Eurovision Glory Days.
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 12,254
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 3-1 CCFC
« Reply #99 on: December 23, 2013, 01:58:47 PM »
I don't disagree - but the point of the trap isn't solely to catch players offside, but to have them try to get back onside and have them running away from the goal, so that the ball effectively goes to dead space or the keeper. I think this is what Sakho was furious about, and what gave Cardiff the benefit when Skrtel dropped. I'm not saying I think it was a clever plan, but having played in and coached a lot of offside traps, I recognise all the signs, and I think the intention was more to set and hold a line, rather than mark individual players. If you look back at the Cardiff free kick that started the run of play leading to Sterling's goal, you see the same thing, so it wasn't accidental that there was a 2v1 on Sakho - because the players weren't really man-marking, they were setting a line:



We can see here that Johnson has a 2v1 situation, and nobody corrects it. In the next frame, one of the Cardiff players moves behind the line, and nobody picks him up:



So that tells me that we were trying operate some sort of offside line, some sort of zonal set piece defending, and that Skrtel jumped the gun on the one that led to the goal.

As I said, I don't disagree that it's risky - "live by the trap, die by the trap" as the old saying goes. But people here need to realise what was happening when the goal was scored. We were clearly playing zonally, and it clearly hasn't been rehearsed enough.

I agree with the analysis but could it be possible that Skrtel was supposed to jump the gun and get in position early to head the ball. It seems extraordinarily poor timing otherwise.
Quote from: hinesy
He hadn't played as if he was on fire, more the slight breeze cutting across New Brighton on a summer's day than El Nino, the force of nature.

Offline PhaseOfPlay

  • Well red.Tom Jones Lover. AKA Debbie McGee. Apparently.
  • RAWK Writer
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 28,365
  • Under 7s Coaching Manual Owner.
Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 3-1 CCFC
« Reply #100 on: December 23, 2013, 01:59:01 PM »
Sorry if I'm missing something here, but is the suggestion that if we'd held the line everything would've been rosy defensively, regardless of Sakho having 2 players to mark?

What if Cardiff had asked the player furthest left (behind Sakho) to step another 5 yards off him - he'd have been in acres of space in the penalty box and could be easily picked out by crossing it over the top of the huddle of players near the D.


No. The point of the posts is against those who can't get their head around Sakho being in a 2v1, when we clearly weren't man-marking. Second to that, then, is that Skrtel jumped the gun and went against whatever the plan was, and so whatever chance we had of making the plan work went out the window the second Skrtel sprinted towards the goal instead of holding the line UNTIL the ball was played.
Better looking than Samie.

Offline PhaseOfPlay

  • Well red.Tom Jones Lover. AKA Debbie McGee. Apparently.
  • RAWK Writer
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 28,365
  • Under 7s Coaching Manual Owner.
Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 3-1 CCFC
« Reply #101 on: December 23, 2013, 02:05:21 PM »
I agree with the analysis but could it be possible that Skrtel was supposed to jump the gun and get in position early to head the ball. It seems extraordinarily poor timing otherwise.

That would defeat the purpose of everything that they'd been trying to do up until that point, though. If you're going to set a line but have someone move early, you may as well just man-mark because you'll have more organisation with man-marking than with an offside line that doesn't hold tight when the ball is played.


As I said before, we almost certainly don't get out on the training pitch and work on these things, because we are consistently bad at them, and consistently disorganised at them. If we do, I'll be very shocked
Better looking than Samie.

Offline jason42

  • .....aka jason23
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 14,643
  • THE REAL TRUTH- "Liverpool fans were not to blame"
Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 3-1 CCFC
« Reply #102 on: December 23, 2013, 02:10:13 PM »
Sorry if I'm missing something here, but is the suggestion that if we'd held the line everything would've been rosy defensively, regardless of Sakho having 2 players to mark?

What if Cardiff had asked the player furthest left (behind Sakho) to step another 5 yards off him - he'd have been in acres of space in the penalty box and could be easily picked out by crossing it over the top of the huddle of players near the D.

If we had held the line, there is a very good possibility that Sakho would have been able to react to the cross and maybe get something on it. There is also the possibility that the Cardiff players would have had to move onside and the possibility that Mignolet could come for the ball because there would not be a sea of defenders in front of him.
The main gist is that some of our players were doing one thing - holding the high line just outside our box. Some of our other players were holding a different line inside our box and then Skrtel drops off on his on thereby playing everyone onside and catching Sakho on his heels.
We have to set our defensive plan - either hold a high line and hold it; hold a high line and push out as the ball is kicked; hold a slightly deeper line and hold it or hold a line and then all drop back towards the goal. Obviously the last one is my least favourite option as you end up with a crowd of players around the 6 yard box, the keeper is unlikely to be able to come & take the ball and the ball can ricochet anywhere.
Quote from: macca888 link=topic=276522
Came to this thread a bit late, but from what I've read, the real relationship trouble is not between you and your girl, but between you and a small box of Tampax. You obviously need something more substantial in your life like a huge Costco sized box of jam rags, seeing as you're such a massive fucking quim

Offline PhaseOfPlay

  • Well red.Tom Jones Lover. AKA Debbie McGee. Apparently.
  • RAWK Writer
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 28,365
  • Under 7s Coaching Manual Owner.
Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 3-1 CCFC
« Reply #103 on: December 23, 2013, 02:11:47 PM »
Have to say I disagree with this.

If Skrtel holds the line, the free man is still on-side and you're effectively saying that we 'might' get an incorrect call in our favour.  Somehow that is Skrtel's fault (even partially)?

If you were saying that he was out of position and should've been marking one of the two on the back post, I could understand.  But to say the blame is at his feet for dropping... I don't buy it.

For me, this just screams dis-organisation.  Whether some of the near post defenders (Lucas or Allen who were free) needed to come across, Skrtel needed to move over, Sterling needed to drop, or Sakho/Mignolet needed to be telling any of the previous to be doing that; none of that is on Skrtel dropping for me.

Read everything I said. Rodgers has the largest part of the liability (not blame). Skrtel isn't being scythed at the knees with blame and criticism for costing us a goal - not by me anyway. The point I've been making is that if your plan is to play a trap or hold a line, then everyone has to stick to the plan, and pay attention to the triggers. The trigger for any offside plan is the kick of the ball, Skrtel started his run far too soon, and broke the line. The criticism - if such exists - is not that we conceded, but that he didn't stick to the plan.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2013, 02:20:01 PM by BalesofHay »
Better looking than Samie.

Offline Stubby!

  • Not on my watch.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 10,723
  • He asked for it!
Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 3-1 CCFC
« Reply #104 on: December 23, 2013, 02:13:39 PM »

No. The point of the posts is against those who can't get their head around Sakho being in a 2v1, when we clearly weren't man-marking. Second to that, then, is that Skrtel jumped the gun and went against whatever the plan was, and so whatever chance we had of making the plan work went out the window the second Skrtel sprinted towards the goal instead of holding the line UNTIL the ball was played.

I get the bit about Skrtel losing his nerve and dropping in too quickly, but I still don't understand why we were so compact.  With the zonal marking, what would've happened had Cardiff sent a couple more players to the back post, spread their line and overloaded Sakho even more?  Do we adjust the zone accordingly, or are the players instructed to hold a specific zone dependent on where the set piece is being taken, regardless of opposition positioning?
Sit down, shock is better taken with bent knees.

Offline PhaseOfPlay

  • Well red.Tom Jones Lover. AKA Debbie McGee. Apparently.
  • RAWK Writer
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 28,365
  • Under 7s Coaching Manual Owner.
Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 3-1 CCFC
« Reply #105 on: December 23, 2013, 02:19:23 PM »
I get the bit about Skrtel losing his nerve and dropping in too quickly, but I still don't understand why we were so compact.  With the zonal marking, what would've happened had Cardiff sent a couple more players to the back post, spread their line and overloaded Sakho even more?  Do we adjust the zone accordingly, or are the players instructed to hold a specific zone dependent on where the set piece is being taken, regardless of opposition positioning?

Zonally, you don't adjust the zone. That's one of the weaknesses of zonal defending - you can overload zones. But we also were clearly adding an offside element to it, and in that case, you can have 50 players in one zone - if the offside plan is stuck to, rigidly, then you gain more of an advantage if the team is organised and gets their timing right. We didn't, and all the cons of zonal defending and offside traps were there to be seen (much like all the cons of man-marking were seen early in the season when Enrique lost his man when we conceded from that set-piece).
Better looking than Samie.

Offline AirConGipsyRed

  • The Floater in Camerons Toilet.
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,226
Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 3-1 CCFC
« Reply #106 on: December 23, 2013, 02:32:42 PM »
I've really enjoyed reading all these posts and pictures/videos etc. I feel I have really learnt a lot, which is a great thing. So thank you all.

Just my two pence regarding zonal marking against man to man marking: Didn't Rafa say something like; if they score when you play man to man then you blame the defender, if they score in a zonal system then you blame the manager. Both systems have flaws.

Anyway, I for one am relieved that we don't rely on set pieces for our goals. I love the fact that we are playing free flowing attacking football with the majority of or goals being scored from open play. It's just like the old days ;D
The wheels on my house go round and round, round and round..........

"I don't care about pollution, I'm an Air-Conditioned Gipsy, That's my solution, Watch the police and the tax man miss me, I'm mobile"

Offline Stubby!

  • Not on my watch.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 10,723
  • He asked for it!
Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 3-1 CCFC
« Reply #107 on: December 23, 2013, 02:33:36 PM »
Zonally, you don't adjust the zone. That's one of the weaknesses of zonal defending - you can overload zones. But we also were clearly adding an offside element to it, and in that case, you can have 50 players in one zone - if the offside plan is stuck to, rigidly, then you gain more of an advantage if the team is organised and gets their timing right. We didn't, and all the cons of zonal defending and offside traps were there to be seen (much like all the cons of man-marking were seen early in the season when Enrique lost his man when we conceded from that set-piece).

I'm really struggling to see where the advantage is at all, even with an offside trap.  Looking at my amazingly detailed image I just knocked up when I should've been working, this is what I would do against that sort of set up.  Just put someone 5 yards off of the zone (which looks like it ends at the D) and tell them to hold the line.  S'long as this player doesn't run in too early, he'll have almost a clear sight of goal with no one within 5 yards of him.



Or am I missing something?  Seems really straightforward from an attacking point of view, and the only way to defend against that would be to spread our defensive line out further, or at least make sure we have someone close to the furthest opposition player out.  Otherwise, offside or no offside, he'll have loads of space if the ball in is decent.
Sit down, shock is better taken with bent knees.

Offline CHOPPER

  • Bad Tranny with a Chopper. Hello John gotta new Mitre? I'm Jim Davidson in disguise. Undercover Cop (Grammar Division). Does Louis Spence. Well. A giga-c*nt worth of nothing in particular. Hodgson apologist. Astronomical cock.
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 49,564
  • Super Title: Not Arsed
Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 3-1 CCFC
« Reply #108 on: December 23, 2013, 02:34:37 PM »
This thread is a prime example of why these threads in the main, for me, don't work. You've all moved from analysing, to over analysing, to splitting hairs over snap shots in a game.

It's just going around and around in circles.
@ Veinticinco de Mayo The way you talk to other users on this forum is something you should be ashamed of as someone who is suppose to be representing the site.
Martin Kenneth Wild - Part of a family

Offline blert596

  • or is it Simon Peg, Advert: Buy incontinence bed pads from www.incontinencechoice.co.uk Wash & disposable. Trade & Public.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 8,384
Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 3-1 CCFC
« Reply #109 on: December 23, 2013, 02:35:58 PM »
I'm not so sure that the "timing" was as much an issue as the fact that we didn't set up for either the offside trap or a high line.

I can see Sakho gesticulating that he wanted us set up one particular way. But there was nothing like an offside trap or a high line set up.

When you have one end of the line outside the box, and the other end of the line 2 yards inside the box then you're gonna have trouble. The defenders pushing high are effectively contributing nothing (even though they're in the right with their own positioning and intent) and they are to all intents and purposes superfluous once the kick it taken.


If your line looks like its been set up by Joey Deacon before the balls kicked then there's no point in having that line.

I think the easiest summary of it would be that it was a very very amateurish attempt at playing a high line, with a chain of schoolboy errors from everyone involved from start to finish.

After taking everyone s inputs into account I've learned a fair bit too.

Sack Rodgers.
All the badge kissing in the world don't make up for the fact that they are, frankly, not Liverpool Football Club. It's not their fault. Its just how it is.

Offline PhaseOfPlay

  • Well red.Tom Jones Lover. AKA Debbie McGee. Apparently.
  • RAWK Writer
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 28,365
  • Under 7s Coaching Manual Owner.
Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 3-1 CCFC
« Reply #110 on: December 23, 2013, 02:41:54 PM »
I'm really struggling to see where the advantage is at all, even with an offside trap.  Looking at my amazingly detailed image I just knocked up when I should've been working, this is what I would do against that sort of set up.  Just put someone 5 yards off of the zone (which looks like it ends at the D) and tell them to hold the line.  S'long as this player doesn't run in too early, he'll have almost a clear sight of goal with no one within 5 yards of him.



Or am I missing something?  Seems really straightforward from an attacking point of view, and the only way to defend against that would be to spread our defensive line out further, or at least make sure we have someone close to the furthest opposition player out.  Otherwise, offside or no offside, he'll have loads of space if the ball in is decent.

What does the defending team have, the further away from the ball the receiver is?
Better looking than Samie.

Offline steveeastend

  • Learnt to play them drums
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 15,863
Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 3-1 CCFC
« Reply #111 on: December 23, 2013, 02:43:46 PM »


Moving the line somewhere closer to the penalty spot would give the defenders a better chance.

That´s totally wrong. You have to drag the attacking line away from the box with somehow setting up a "false" offside trap, as it isn´t a trap in these sort of situations, only prevents attacking players running from behind into the box which would be even more difficult to defend. Skrtel doesn´t make a mistake as there is no stepping out of this sort of false traps anyway, the mistakes was that the entire defending line "forgot" the zone on the far right. Bad positioning.


Actually we dont get any worse at defending set pieces. We have been quite sometime if you ask me. And we seem to have forgotten the basics. Or is that what you said? Anyways, I dunno about you, but I think the way we lined up last evening, showed our ignorance to deal with the space that we allowed around the Cardiff players.


..with set pieces from this distance there is usually no man marking anyway which would be only an issue with set pieces from closer distance.

But we also were clearly adding an offside element to it,

I don´t think this was the case, it was about trying to drag the attacking line a little bit further away from the box. To me the entire line is set up a little too close to the left. But as you pointed out, that´s part of endless practising in training..

This thread is a prime example of why these threads in the main, for me, don't work. You've all moved from analysing, to over analysing, to splitting hairs over snap shots in a game.

It's just going around and around in circles.

Here is some overanalysing for you... ;D ;)

Italian manager do practise the correct distance between players in a defending line and their positioning for hours on a daily basis, sometimes with a rope between them to measure and keep the correct distance in between...

Peace and happy christmas to everyone.  :)
« Last Edit: December 23, 2013, 03:27:37 PM by steveeastend »
One thing does need to be said: in the post-Benitez era, there was media-led clamour (but also some politicking going on at the club) to make the club more English; the idea being that the club had lost the very essence of what it means to be ‘Liverpool’. Guillem Ballague 18/11/10

Offline Stubby!

  • Not on my watch.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 10,723
  • He asked for it!
Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 3-1 CCFC
« Reply #112 on: December 23, 2013, 02:43:59 PM »
What does the defending team have, the further away from the ball the receiver is?

They have a man in the box, in space, behind the defence.
Sit down, shock is better taken with bent knees.

Offline Ronster

  • A Real Man who doesn't like Girlies
  • Anny Roader
  • ****
  • Posts: 392
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 3-1 CCFC
« Reply #113 on: December 23, 2013, 02:44:03 PM »
This thread is a prime example of why these threads in the main, for me, don't work. You've all moved from analysing, to over analysing, to splitting hairs over snap shots in a game.

It's just going around and around in circles.

More of a Mobius strip Chops. The continuous twists………………...
'When circumstances can not be changed attitude is everything'

Offline PhaseOfPlay

  • Well red.Tom Jones Lover. AKA Debbie McGee. Apparently.
  • RAWK Writer
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 28,365
  • Under 7s Coaching Manual Owner.
Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 3-1 CCFC
« Reply #114 on: December 23, 2013, 02:45:56 PM »
They have a man in the box, in space, behind the defence.

If he's the receiver, then he's offside in that case.

But that's not the answer to the question.
Better looking than Samie.

Offline Stubby!

  • Not on my watch.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 10,723
  • He asked for it!
Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 3-1 CCFC
« Reply #115 on: December 23, 2013, 02:50:05 PM »
If he's the receiver, then he's offside in that case.

But that's not the answer to the question.

Why is he offside?  Providing he's holding the line with the defence, he would be fine.  And he (along with the keeper) would have the best view of what's going on, because he's behind everyone else.  It'd be easier for him to attack the ball in behind because he'd be running on to it, whereas everyone else would have to spin round to see what's happening behind them.
Sit down, shock is better taken with bent knees.

Offline PhaseOfPlay

  • Well red.Tom Jones Lover. AKA Debbie McGee. Apparently.
  • RAWK Writer
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 28,365
  • Under 7s Coaching Manual Owner.
Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 3-1 CCFC
« Reply #116 on: December 23, 2013, 02:54:03 PM »
Why is he offside?  Providing he's holding the line with the defence, he would be fine.  And he (along with the keeper) would have the best view of what's going on, because he's behind everyone else.  It'd be easier for him to attack the ball in behind because he'd be running on to it, whereas everyone else would have to spin round to see what's happening behind them.

Quote
Quote from: tubby on Today at 02:43:59 PM

They have a man in the box, in space, behind the defence.


That's still not the answer to the question.
Better looking than Samie.

Offline End Product

  • doesn't always come out of the right end
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,229
Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 3-1 CCFC
« Reply #117 on: December 23, 2013, 02:57:25 PM »

Having said that, what do you think the real difference was between our offside plan and Wolves'?

Er... dunno... i am sure i had a point, or an idea earlier,  but i  have forgotten it, er...

Wolves clearly hired a defensive coach?

Hang on...   that's what we need !!   

Case closed.
No time for caution.

Offline Stubby!

  • Not on my watch.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 10,723
  • He asked for it!
Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 3-1 CCFC
« Reply #118 on: December 23, 2013, 02:59:21 PM »

That's still not the answer to the question.

If he times his run correctly, he wouldn't be offside.  He's got the same amount of time to react to the cross as everyone else does, but he's got the clearest view and he's running on to the ball as opposed to turning to see how play is unfolding behind before reacting to it - this is what gives him the advantage and makes him more likely to get to the ball before anyone else if they all start on the same line.

The same as when someone crosses the ball in open play, if a striker is level with the defender, but 5 yards behind him, if the cross is good, he's got a clear advantage.

The answer to the question had better not be 42 btw.
Sit down, shock is better taken with bent knees.

Offline moloch

  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,218
Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 3-1 CCFC
« Reply #119 on: December 23, 2013, 03:04:03 PM »
What does the defending team have, the further away from the ball the receiver is?

More time to sort it out?