Author Topic: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...  (Read 75594 times)

Offline DeclanYNWA

  • clueless/hopeless/useless member
  • Kopite
  • *****
  • Posts: 808
  • YNWA
Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #600 on: May 21, 2012, 10:53:18 PM »
Honestly you lads are mental if you think all they care about is the champions league.


The champions league is a stepping stone.  Gives us more money to put into the team, more money from advertising.

What happens to that money?  It goes into the playing staff, which will get better when we can attract better players by offering champions league football.

Then the team gets better and better and eventually we win the league, the CL, etc.

It's not just about getting in the CL and the money that comes with it.  We are liverpool supporters why is everyone acting like they are so simple minded.
If you are first you are first. If you are second you are nothing- Bill Shankly

Online mikey_LFC

  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,460
  • At the End of a Storm there's a Golden Sky.
Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #601 on: May 21, 2012, 10:57:57 PM »
Honestly you lads are mental if you think this thread is ever going to go anywhere

Fixed it for you,  :P
"A lot of football success is in the mind. You must believe you are the best and then make sure that you are." - Bill Shankly

Offline Shannon

  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,216
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #602 on: May 21, 2012, 11:02:10 PM »
Add a poll and have no discussion, statistics settles everything.
“Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter.” Martin Luther King

Online XabiArt

  • No new LFC topics
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,687
  • The passmaster.
Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #603 on: May 21, 2012, 11:10:56 PM »
If its winning a cup and getting europa, or finishing 4th and only getting europa. Then obviously its the cup every time.

I was pressing the point that we need champions league asap.

Online Alan_X

  • WUM. 'twatito' - The Cat Herding Firm But Fair Voice Of Reason (Except when he's got a plank up his arse). Gimme some skin, priest! Has a general dislike for Elijah Wood. Clearly cannot fill even a thong! RAWK Resident Muppet. Has a crush o
  • RAWK Staff
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 47,886
  • Come on you fucking red men!!!
  • Super Title: This is super!
Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #604 on: May 21, 2012, 11:52:49 PM »
4th and Europa League qualification or the League cup and Europa League qualification? Really? And it's got to fifteen pages?

I know RAWK eh?  ;D
Sid Lowe (@sidlowe)
09/03/2011 08:04
Give a man a mask and he will tell the truth, Give a man a user name and he will act like a total twat.
Its all about winning shiny things.

Offline macca888

  • Macca the Militant Illiterate Gnok. Chief Football Hack aka macca888. Jacqui Smith and Anne Widdecombe, in any order. Or together. He's not fussy. Overdue with Crosby Nick. Recently elevated to status Sir Precious C*nt.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 15,860
Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #605 on: May 21, 2012, 11:55:22 PM »
I know RAWK eh?  ;D

I don't think you should take the piss out of us customers like that to be honest.   :P
Macca resplendent!
A colossus bestriding the
moral high ground as ever.

Offline redy

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,114
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #606 on: May 21, 2012, 11:56:27 PM »
Add a poll and have no discussion, statistics settles everything.

This. Straight poll. 4th or carling cup. Let's sort this out.

And the question should be what do you want for next season of these 2 options:

4th or carling cup.

Online Alan_X

  • WUM. 'twatito' - The Cat Herding Firm But Fair Voice Of Reason (Except when he's got a plank up his arse). Gimme some skin, priest! Has a general dislike for Elijah Wood. Clearly cannot fill even a thong! RAWK Resident Muppet. Has a crush o
  • RAWK Staff
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 47,886
  • Come on you fucking red men!!!
  • Super Title: This is super!
Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #607 on: May 22, 2012, 12:01:50 AM »
I don't think you should take the piss out of us customers like that to be honest.   :P

haha!
Sid Lowe (@sidlowe)
09/03/2011 08:04
Give a man a mask and he will tell the truth, Give a man a user name and he will act like a total twat.
Its all about winning shiny things.

Online Alan_X

  • WUM. 'twatito' - The Cat Herding Firm But Fair Voice Of Reason (Except when he's got a plank up his arse). Gimme some skin, priest! Has a general dislike for Elijah Wood. Clearly cannot fill even a thong! RAWK Resident Muppet. Has a crush o
  • RAWK Staff
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 47,886
  • Come on you fucking red men!!!
  • Super Title: This is super!
Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #608 on: May 22, 2012, 12:03:31 AM »
This. Straight poll. 4th or carling cup. Let's sort this out.

And the question should be what do you want for next season of these 2 options:

4th or carling cup.

Why? Thats not what the OP is about. Start your own thread.
Sid Lowe (@sidlowe)
09/03/2011 08:04
Give a man a mask and he will tell the truth, Give a man a user name and he will act like a total twat.
Its all about winning shiny things.

Offline jeremyh94

  • Anny Roader
  • ****
  • Posts: 390
Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #609 on: May 22, 2012, 12:09:32 AM »
Easy. 4th. Or, if that isn't possible, 3rd.
And in any event, a league season that isn't over at the end of February

Offline scoresagain

  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 5,447
Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #610 on: May 22, 2012, 12:13:42 AM »
This. Straight poll. 4th or carling cup. Let's sort this out.

And the question should be what do you want for next season of these 2 options:

4th or carling cup.
The OP is referring to this season, if you want 4th next season you're a complete idiot. Wanting a Champions League spot is a completely different matter.

Offline Cre_mCr_cker

  • Green A_my!
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,261
Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #611 on: May 22, 2012, 12:18:23 AM »
The OP is referring to this season, if you want 4th next season you're a complete idiot. Wanting a Champions League spot is a completely different matter.

That's like saying if you want an apple next season you're a complete idiot, wanting an apple is a completely different matter. It's the same thing, just that 1 time in 100 that apple turns out to be a pear. This season it was a pear, next season I'd put every penny of what I own on it being an apple.
This is a Liverpool forum. We are not talking about Demba Ba's cock.

My feet are wet but my cups are bone dry! Everything's comin' up Milhouse!

Offline scoresagain

  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 5,447
Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #612 on: May 22, 2012, 12:25:51 AM »
That's like saying if you want an apple next season you're a complete idiot, wanting an apple is a completely different matter. It's the same thing, just that 1 time in 100 that apple turns out to be a pear. This season it was a pear, next season I'd put every penny of what I own on it being an apple.
I could have worded it better, I admit! But I really hate the thought of aiming for fourth, it just sounds so defeatist, Say top 4 v Carling Cup or Champions League v Carling Cup.

Offline kcbworth

  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,673
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #613 on: May 22, 2012, 12:28:27 AM »
All I know, is that I want to win the league. Trying to paper a 26% winning record in the league under the cracks because we won the 5 and drew 2 games to get the league cup is not helpful, as it does nothing to help us get any closer to the title.

I really can't see any the staunchest disparagers of "4th" accepting that going unbeaten over the 7 games required to win the league cup (many of whom will be lower league) will be satisfied if we are losing the majority of our league games and out of the running for the title every year. In fact, given the way league cup venues are chosen, we could go an entire season without winning a single game at home, and still win the league cup. Would that be enough to ask for improvement, or would those 7 games unbeaten make up for it all?

Offline kcbworth

  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,673
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #614 on: May 22, 2012, 12:44:31 AM »
Craig Bellamy answered this before we even had won the cup http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=287008.0

Offline mickeydocs

  • No new LFC topics
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,184
Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #615 on: May 22, 2012, 12:53:02 AM »
Fourth place over the carling cup any day.
This club is greater than any one player.

Offline mickeydocs

  • No new LFC topics
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,184
Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #616 on: May 22, 2012, 12:53:44 AM »
Here we go. Wouldn't a better question be CL or Carling cup?

The vast majority of seasons 4th place will guarantee CL qualifying.

For me it depends on the season.

well said that man
This club is greater than any one player.

Offline blacksun

  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,163
Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #617 on: May 22, 2012, 01:02:29 AM »
All I know, is that I want to win the league. Trying to paper a 26% winning record in the league under the cracks because we won the 5 and drew 2 games to get the league cup is not helpful, as it does nothing to help us get any closer to the title.

I really can't see any the staunchest disparagers of "4th" accepting that going unbeaten over the 7 games required to win the league cup (many of whom will be lower league) will be satisfied if we are losing the majority of our league games and out of the running for the title every year. In fact, given the way league cup venues are chosen, we could go an entire season without winning a single game at home, and still win the league cup. Would that be enough to ask for improvement, or would those 7 games unbeaten make up for it all?

Ask the Arsenal fans, they qualify for the CL every season yet seem pretty pissed off that they havent won a trophy for 7 years

Offline kcbworth

  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,673
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #618 on: May 22, 2012, 01:10:38 AM »
Ask the Arsenal fans, they qualify for the CL every season yet seem pretty pissed off that they havent won a trophy for 7 years

Wouldn't it be funny if over in gooner land theyre having the argument whether cups are more important than qualifying for Europe, and someone's saying "ask the Liverpool fans, they seem pretty pissed off that they havent competed in the league or made the CL for 3 years"  ;)

Online coolbyrne

  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,883
  • Ground Control
Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #619 on: May 22, 2012, 01:16:12 AM »
No it's not bannable. You were making sensible points but you're venturing into straw man territory. No one wants to be Villa and as I posted earlier, no one who wants Carling cups and FA cups doesn't want to win the league ad the European cup. Im the same way that no one wants to win the Carling Cup if it means winning nothing else.

I have greater ambition than you do because I want what you want but also want the 'lesser' cups.

Read back and look at my post showing the top clubs income. Getting a few tens of millions from the CL won't make a blind bit of difference in closing our income gap. Sacking off the carling and FA cups gets us into Spurs territory, not Chelsea, United or City territory.

The interesting point about Villa is that they tried to do what some on here are suggesting - build a team on the cheap and sack off the small competitions for top four. It's a shit model and doesn't work.

Isn't the thread question one big straw man argument? As is the Arsenal comparison that other sides of the debate bring up. ie. "What has CL done for Arsenal?" and "Yeah, making CL every year has done wonders in helping them keep their players." Of course, it's all one big hypothetical and opinion-laden situation anyway, isn't it? If we win lesser trophies, it will instill the mentality to win bigger ones. (Will it?) Fourth is only a stepping stone to better things. (Do we truly know what FSG wants?)

I have my (strong) opinions on things, but in the end, they really are only opinions. Calling someone a dickhead for theirs was bad form, Alan_X, especially from a mod.

Oh, these sour times.

No one admires resilience when you were just plain wrong all along - that's just twattishness.

If I ever see you in person I'm going to knock you th

Offline Carolina Red

  • Kopite
  • *****
  • Posts: 512
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #620 on: May 22, 2012, 01:16:30 AM »
Ask the Arsenal fans, they qualify for the CL every season yet seem pretty pissed off that they havent won a trophy for 7 years

Haha. You're kidding yourself if you think Arsenal would trade places with us right now.


Offline blacksun

  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,163
Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #621 on: May 22, 2012, 01:35:27 AM »
Haha. You're kidding yourself if you think Arsenal would trade places with us right now.



I didn't say they'd want to swap places but it debunks this theory that qualifying for the CL makes you a better team that will challenge for the league, when were Arsenal serious challengers last? Theres a reason Fabregas went to Barca and that Clichy, Nasri, Toure and Adebayor all defected to City in the last couple of years and it sure as shit wasnt because they werent in the CL year in year out.

Offline quasimodo

  • Kopite
  • *****
  • Posts: 603
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #622 on: May 22, 2012, 01:37:56 AM »
2006-07, 07-08, 08-09. Champions league, challenging at the top of the table, chances of winning the best competitions, attracting world class players to play at the club.

Swap that for 8th and the Carling Cup. Are you kidding?

Bring back those terrible trophy less days. PLEASE.

Offline liverpoolfan1970

  • Anny Roader
  • ****
  • Posts: 263
  • Anarcho-Capitalist
Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #623 on: May 22, 2012, 01:47:21 AM »
I think he would have still been let go.

Perhaps. We will never know. However, the likelihood of that happening is slim. As the season was getting started there were reports that JWH said not getting 4th would be unacceptable (or something to that extent). Had we at least made a decent run at 4th then I think they'd have kept Kenny. However, we weren't even close, and didn't look like it since the turn of the New Year. The disturbing thing is that Kenny just couldn't get these guys to turn things around (in the league). At the end of the day he was always seen as simply a stop-gap until such point as the permanent guy could be brought in. Last spring he gave them a reason to keep him. This spring the opportunity to let him go was presented and they took it.

At the end, 4th place is what I'd rather have. It was nice seeing us at Wembley again winning a cup, but 4th and up is where we should be (or at least challenging for it).
YNWA

Offline Camarero25

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 13,638
Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #624 on: May 22, 2012, 01:53:18 AM »
All I know, is that I want to win the league. Trying to paper a 26% winning record in the league under the cracks because we won the 5 and drew 2 games to get the league cup is not helpful, as it does nothing to help us get any closer to the title.

I really can't see any the staunchest disparagers of "4th" accepting that going unbeaten over the 7 games required to win the league cup (many of whom will be lower league) will be satisfied if we are losing the majority of our league games and out of the running for the title every year. In fact, given the way league cup venues are chosen, we could go an entire season without winning a single game at home, and still win the league cup. Would that be enough to ask for improvement, or would those 7 games unbeaten make up for it all?

We had a 26% win percentage in the league this season? Fuck me, that is awful.

As for the argument of CL vs Cups it's the stupidest and most boring argument on this site.

Offline kcbworth

  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,673
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #625 on: May 22, 2012, 02:06:54 AM »
We had a 26% win percentage in the league this season? Fuck me, that is awful.

As for the argument of CL vs Cups it's the stupidest and most boring argument on this site.

In 2012 that is... have to check over the entire season.

Offline Carolina Red

  • Kopite
  • *****
  • Posts: 512
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #626 on: May 22, 2012, 02:33:25 AM »
I didn't say they'd want to swap places but it debunks this theory that qualifying for the CL makes you a better team that will challenge for the league, when were Arsenal serious challengers last? Theres a reason Fabregas went to Barca and that Clichy, Nasri, Toure and Adebayor all defected to City in the last couple of years and it sure as shit wasnt because they werent in the CL year in year out.

Yes, the reason was for massive money (or in Fabregas' case, returning home).

They did not leave for City because City won the League Cup, becuase they didn't.

It's amazing the lengths that people will go to, trying to justify being out of the CL as no big deal.

Offline Redallover11

  • Just behind Red Al Lover Number Ten in the Red Al Lover Queue
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,470
Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #627 on: May 22, 2012, 03:07:41 AM »
I didn't say they'd want to swap places but it debunks this theory that qualifying for the CL makes you a better team that will challenge for the league, when were Arsenal serious challengers last? Theres a reason Fabregas went to Barca and that Clichy, Nasri, Toure and Adebayor all defected to City in the last couple of years and it sure as shit wasnt because they werent in the CL year in year out.
but it certainly wasnt to try and win the cc cup.

Offline kcbworth

  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,673
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #628 on: May 22, 2012, 03:08:02 AM »
I didn't say they'd want to swap places but it debunks this theory that qualifying for the CL makes you a better team that will challenge for the league, when were Arsenal serious challengers last?

They have been a damn site closer than us over the last couple of seasons. And they're a club that's meant to be on the decline as well.

Offline reds88

  • Kopite
  • *****
  • Posts: 938
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #629 on: May 22, 2012, 03:11:43 AM »
Financially being out of the CL is a big deal.  It's made an even bigger deal when we can't compete financially.  We aren't in debt but we won't be pulling closer financially to City and United any time soon.  The plans in refurbishing Anfield or building a new stadium seemingly beyond the horizon. 

Footballing wise any cup win is a big deal as it could ignite a flame in the club to achieve something more.  A winning mentality is one when losing is not accepted in every game whether it's a 5 a side, mickey mouse cup of whatever.  In winners there's no switching off for a less trophy. 



Offline kcbworth

  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,673
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #630 on: May 22, 2012, 03:15:51 AM »
A winning mentality is one when losing is not accepted in every game

Bingo! That's the answer.

Offline ziggyy

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,439
  • Wums should remain underground...
Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #631 on: May 22, 2012, 03:22:09 AM »
Honestly you lads are mental if you think all they care about is the champions league.


The champions league is a stepping stone.  Gives us more money to put into the team, more money from advertising.

What happens to that money?  It goes into the playing staff, which will get better when we can attract better players by offering champions league football.

Then the team gets better and better and eventually we win the league, the CL, etc.

It's not just about getting in the CL and the money that comes with it.  We are liverpool supporters why is everyone acting like they are so simple minded.

And if a team is successful and doing well, that'll attract even more sponsors and so on and on and on. 

Online Alan_X

  • WUM. 'twatito' - The Cat Herding Firm But Fair Voice Of Reason (Except when he's got a plank up his arse). Gimme some skin, priest! Has a general dislike for Elijah Wood. Clearly cannot fill even a thong! RAWK Resident Muppet. Has a crush o
  • RAWK Staff
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 47,886
  • Come on you fucking red men!!!
  • Super Title: This is super!
Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #632 on: May 22, 2012, 04:45:52 AM »
Isn't the thread question one big straw man argument? As is the Arsenal comparison that other sides of the debate bring up. ie. "What has CL done for Arsenal?" and "Yeah, making CL every year has done wonders in helping them keep their players." Of course, it's all one big hypothetical and opinion-laden situation anyway, isn't it? If we win lesser trophies, it will instill the mentality to win bigger ones. (Will it?) Fourth is only a stepping stone to better things. (Do we truly know what FSG wants?)

I have my (strong) opinions on things, but in the end, they really are only opinions. Calling someone a dickhead for theirs was bad form, Alan_X, especially from a mod.



Fair comment.
Sid Lowe (@sidlowe)
09/03/2011 08:04
Give a man a mask and he will tell the truth, Give a man a user name and he will act like a total twat.
Its all about winning shiny things.

Offline DanA

  • misses the Eurovision Glory Days.
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 12,237
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #633 on: May 22, 2012, 04:54:26 AM »
Qualify for Champions League or Win the Carlington Cup. Sorry but I'd take Champions League qualification every time. 4th place is a meaningless redherring in the argument. Nobody cares about fourth beyond what it means for European Qualification.
Quote from: hinesy
He hadn't played as if he was on fire, more the slight breeze cutting across New Brighton on a summer's day than El Nino, the force of nature.

Online Alan_X

  • WUM. 'twatito' - The Cat Herding Firm But Fair Voice Of Reason (Except when he's got a plank up his arse). Gimme some skin, priest! Has a general dislike for Elijah Wood. Clearly cannot fill even a thong! RAWK Resident Muppet. Has a crush o
  • RAWK Staff
  • Believer
  • ******
  • Posts: 47,886
  • Come on you fucking red men!!!
  • Super Title: This is super!
Re: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...
« Reply #634 on: May 22, 2012, 05:22:45 AM »
Seems like we're done. It's a shame that opinions are so rigid across the board.
Sid Lowe (@sidlowe)
09/03/2011 08:04
Give a man a mask and he will tell the truth, Give a man a user name and he will act like a total twat.
Its all about winning shiny things.