Author Topic: A thorny friendship  (Read 25059 times)

Offline the-lightning

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A thorny friendship
« on: December 8, 2009, 11:11:46 am »
I don't wanna start a controversy, but i think Liverpool supporters has to know the true reasons of the twinning that Fiorentina ultras promoted.
I don't think you guys are happy to be mislead for a shameful rivalry that nothing has to do with the story of your club.

November 19, 2009

A thorny friendship.

http://theitalianview.tumblr.com/post/250030004/a-thorny-friendship

After the final whistle had blown at the end of Fiorentina’s 2-0 home win against Liverpool in the Champions League, Fiorentina ‘ultras’ marched across the pitch towards the away fans proudly displaying a massive banner with the words, “Welcome Reds your story is for us a legend”.

The two sets of fans had agreed to what in Italy is called a ‘gemellaggio’, a twinning.

Whilst this gesture was not widely reported in England, it was warmly greeted. Dave Murphy of the LFC Official Supporters Club, Merseyside Branch, commented on the Liverpool website, “It promises to be a great occasion, so if you are traveling to the game be sure to come along and meet some of our new friends.”

Despite the twinning happening this year Fiorentina fans have been wearing Liverpool scarves and singing ‘Amo Liverpool’ [I love Liverpool] for over twenty years. The reason this for this is upsettingly clear: Heysel.

After the tragic events of the Heysel stadium disaster, 29 May 1985, thirty-nine people who went to watch the European Cup Final played between Juventus and Liverpool in Belgium never returned home. They were crushed when part of the stadium collapsed. This was caused by bianconeri supporters fleeing from a charging group of Liverpool fans. Thirty-two of the victims were Juventus fans, the other seven were neutrals, Belgian, French and a Northern Irishman.

In the aftermath of the event other supporters in Italy showed almost unanimous solidarity with Juventus. Banners in many stadiums were displayed in remembrance of the dead.

The scene was very different at Fiorentina’s Artemio Franchi stadium the Sunday after the Heysel disaster. Still smarting from losing the title on the last day of the 81/82 season to Juve the Fiorentina fans unveiled an altogether more tasteless banner:

 “Heysel: 39 gobbi in meno” [Heysel: 39 less Juve fans]

In the years that have passed Fiorentina’s hatred of Juventus has grown and the invoking of Heysel and praise of Liverpool has not gone away.

As can be imagined Juventus fans were outraged by this twinning. It was seen as an officialized smear on the memory of their ‘39 angels’.

In the run-up to the match that would see Juventus hosting Fiorentina for the first time since the ‘gemellaggio’, Stefano Sartoni, the head of the ‘ultras’ group Collettivo Autonomo Viola that had initiated the twinning, attempted to defuse the situation, stating:

“We know that the Juvetus fans haven’t taken it very well, that’s their problem. We’ve already explained the reason: we’ve always admired the Reds and Heysel is irrelevant.”

Most Juventus fans were unconvinced by these words and during their meeting on the 17th of October they unveiled banners that read: “Honour to the Heysel fallen, we ask for respect” and “A twinning of squalor for fans without honour”.

Despite the words of Sartoni as to the reason for the twinning, their fans arrived in Turin loaded with Liverpool scarves and a banner stating, “Amo Liverpool”. But more disturbingly fans were seen, and photographed, with Liverpool shirts featuring the name and number of an inexistent player: Meno [Less] 39.




Though an innocence can be claimed in the ambiguity of Reds scarves and ‘loving Liverpool’, a shirt with ‘Meno 39’ leaves nothing to the imagination and no room for debate. It’s as clearly a reference to the Heysel dead as it is tasteless.

The official Juventus response was striking; utter silence. The hierarchy is still weak following the events of ‘calciopoli’, but it is still shocking that they made no comment, did not denounce the Fiorentina fans, report them to the Federation or release any visuals of the culprits.

In contrast, a week after the Juventus - Fiorentina match a comparable incident took place on British shores. A Millwall fan wore a Galatasaray shirt to their away match against Leeds, taunting the home fans over the deaths of Christopher Loftus and Kevin Speight. The two fans that were tragically killed before the clubs away Champions League clash against the Turkish giant.

The actions of the Millwall fan lead to national outrage. Photos of the incident were splashed across newspapers and the Millwall chairman denounced the fan’s behaviour. The supporter is now facing the prospect of a lifetime ban.

Conversely, in Italy there was no mention of the incident in any newspaper. This non-action has given rise to an astonishing campaign by Juventus fans; a mix of fan power and modern technology.

Juventus fans across the Internet, on forums and social networking groups, have begun fighting against this twinning. They have been sharing evidence of misdeeds by Fiorentina fans, but, more intriguingly, they have begun talking to Liverpool fans on their forums.

Since the events of Heysel there has been no love for Liverpool from the Juventus faithful. It is a part of their history they have never forgotten, partly for what they perceive as a lack of effort or care on Liverpool’s part to apologise for what happened.

When the two teams met in 2005, the first time since the tragedy and by coincidence the 20th anniversary of the disaster, the Kop unveiled a huge sign reading, ‘Amicizia’ [friendship]. A large part of the travelling support turned their backs, for them this apology, after 20 years, was far too late.

This twinning however has paradoxically opened communications betweens the two sets of fans. With an open letter by Juventus fans being published all over the Anfield club’s fan forums and other followers of the bianconeri joining online debates.

In this message the Juve supporters give their view on the reason behind the twinning and many Liverpool fans, still wary of their reputation as a result of the Heysel incident, are taking note; not wishing to get involved in something that could potentially be a massive PR catastrophe.

The Liverpool fans have been urged to test Fiorentina’s motives. Juventus fans have suggested that both clubs at the return match at Anfield make some kind of joint gesture in memory of Heysel. The Viola fans, who have also been making their voices heard of the same forums, have, for the moment, not taken kindly to the idea.

Whether this campaign by Juventus fans is successful or not and a gesture is made in remembrance will be revealed when Liverpool host Fiorentina. What is certain, however, is that this ‘gemellaggio’ is not a problem that is going to be laid to rest any time soon, and that both Liverpool and Juventus will continue to be haunted by the ghosts of that tragic day in May 1985.
« Last Edit: December 8, 2009, 01:34:20 pm by the-lightning »

Offline shanklyboy

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Re: A thorny friendship
« Reply #1 on: December 8, 2009, 11:22:11 am »
Interesting that mate.
Thanks for posting it.
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Offline DangerScouse

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Re: A thorny friendship
« Reply #2 on: December 8, 2009, 11:26:45 am »
If as the article says the main reason for the twinning is due to Heysel they can fuck off!

Offline Sinos

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Re: A thorny friendship
« Reply #3 on: December 8, 2009, 11:27:23 am »
Would it possible for you to post a copy of the open letter from the Juve fans?
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Offline Jagdip

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Re: A thorny friendship
« Reply #4 on: December 8, 2009, 11:28:24 am »
I was completely unaware of this. Thanks for posting it! It's a complete disgrace and shows the state Italian football is in. I'm not too sure if anything is planned by us with regards to Heysel. Although I know there will be anti-G&H protests but not sure of Heysel.

Offline SMD

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Re: A thorny friendship
« Reply #5 on: December 8, 2009, 11:34:39 am »
Heard absolutely nothing about this. We have great relations with many clubs, regardless of their rivalries between each other but we would never, EVER condone or support something like this.

However, we can't exactly react only on this. It would be disrespectful to Fiorentina fans to suspect them without any sort of opportunity to respond.
I think this is something that we'd struggle to deal with as such short notice, especially given our own series of protests are due to take place at Anfield. I'm not sure it would be appropriate to have a memorial followed quickly by a protest against our owners.
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Offline the-lightning

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Re: A thorny friendship
« Reply #6 on: December 8, 2009, 11:35:15 am »
Would it possible for you to post a copy of the open letter from the Juve fans?

PUBBLIC LETTER TO LIVERPOOL FANS

Hello, I'm writing to you on behalf of thousands of Juve fans; this is the first time we contact you after 24 years. Distance between us remains massive since we never talked after the Heysel tragedy despite more than 24 years have now gone by. Maybe without this perverse "twinning" we'd have not contacted you but in life nothing is still therefore we take the opportunity to let you know our opinion on this "twinning" and how the viola fans had used it against us during the match we played against fiorentina three weeks ago, and, above all, how they will always use it in the future. Of course you are free to befriend whoever you want, and we are definitely not asking you to give up this friendship, but we want you to be aware that since the first day that we aknowledged the intention of the viola ultras (because the idea came from them, not from shirters) to set up this "twinning" with you guys, it has been clear to us that the main reason, I'm not saying the only one - even if it's very likely, was the Heysel night. Since that awful night in 1985 every match we played against fiorentina was the time for chants and banners cheering that night. We are used to it and I personally don't even care, they do that as some of us do the same with the death of their former President or with the Arno flooding and the Superga tragedy. This is the way ultras behave and I'm not in the position to change some of my people's morality. However no juventus fan could ever deny the from our terraces these songs are sung, even if by a minority.

Viola ultras are clearly lying to you, all fiorentina ultras sing those songs. It's not a minority, as some of you said before, it is a majority, the same that arrived three weeks ago in Torino wearing liverpool jerseys with MENO (MINUS) 39 on the back and singing the usual array of songs cheering the deaths of 39 innocent people. Those shirts were made and those songs were sung by the same ultras that now are saying that the reasons for this "twinning" are pure and sincere. It’s a fucking blatant lie. Now that the real reasons for this "twinning" are coming out of the shell here in Italy they are trying to deny what it's been so clear to all ultras in Italy, not only to us. For once, only once, the viola should be brave and admit what was really behind it.

As I mentioned earlier it's obvious that there still is a huge distance between us mainly because your hools, the real responsible for what happened, never looked for forgiveness, if not few of them in private and only 20 years later (forgiveness that was by the way refused by Otello Lorentini - president of the association of the victims of Heysel - just before our encounter in 2005). Not only, the majority of them still say that they were attacked by Juve fans and that they only defended themselves. With these people there could not be any dialogue, only hate, forever and ever.

At the same time it is also very true that younger Liverpool fans have always seen the Heysel tragedy as a huge soft spot, something to be really ashamed for and even feeling guilty for something they have not commited. And it's also very true that during recent years it was them who actually did more than anybody else to remember the victims and show them the due respect.

Back in 2005 when you offered us friendship, many of us didn't accept it also because we felt it was one of those UEFA plans to make football look good... We just didn't believe it was genuine.

For the above mentioned issues, of course there's still a lot of rage from our side and it's not even easy just to write to you, not to mention full forgiveness, at least without important gestures from your side. At least not before looking at each other's eyes after so many years. At least not after full awareness of the true story of what happened that night. It will be very difficult for you and us to come close until there are still people on your side that are happy for what happened.

However this is the real chance to start this process. Should you make a historic gesture towards our victims I'm sure this would not go unnoticed by the majority of our supporters. After a tragedy like the one we suffered of course this process will take a long time but something has to be done sooner or later and this gesture may well be a beginning.

It's obvious that viola fans are now coming out with silly excuses for those above mentioned jerseys, for the liverpool scarves shown and the songs "we love liverpool" sung at our faces during our last encounter. We know that a doubt has already appeared in some of you about the real nature of this "twinning". We advise you to test the viola fans before your match against them at Anfield. Ask them to join you in a display of respect towards the victims of Heysel, maybe with a banner held together by you and the viola ultras (the CAV, collettivo autonomo viola), not the shirters, they would have no problem in joining you, but the ultras, the real masterminds behind this "twinning" with you guys. Ask them to show respect and take distances from that horrible jersey they were wearing during our last encounter with them. Ask them to give you a strong signal that this "twinning" is sincere and not based on the Heysel tragedy.

We are not loved by anyone in Italy, as it happens everywhere with winning clubs, however all italian ultras agree on the real reasons behind this friendship and condemned the hypocrisy shown by Italian media portraing it as a finally mature behaviour by some Italian ultras despite being well aware of the real reasons behind it. And they despise the viola ultras for denying the truth. Ultras may be bad in a lot of ways but they don't lie. They are honest and brave. They don't like cowards lying in order to let a wrong message come through. And this is clearly the case.

In conclusion, we don't ask you to do anything, but if you really care to come closer to us test the viola ultras. If we are right they will never accept and you know that they only wanted to use you. If we are wrong at least you'll be sure about the reasons of this "twinning". We'll be watching and we'll draw our conclusions. But if you really want to come closer to us starting a pattern of dialogue this is THE chance. Ther won't be others so clear and easy to approach.

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[edit to add a little formatting]
« Last Edit: December 8, 2009, 01:44:13 pm by Claire. »

Offline richiedouglas

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Re: A thorny friendship
« Reply #7 on: December 8, 2009, 11:40:07 am »
Time for a rethink.

Offline DonkeyWan

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Re: A thorny friendship
« Reply #8 on: December 8, 2009, 11:40:58 am »
Fucksake, disgraceful. Florentine ultras using such a tragedy to take cheap shots at a rival. Something needs to be done to make it clear that this unacceptable.
Beatings will continue until morale improves...

Offline TheVoiceOfRiise

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Re: A thorny friendship
« Reply #9 on: December 8, 2009, 11:42:16 am »
I smell trouble...
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Offline tobyo

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Re: A thorny friendship
« Reply #10 on: December 8, 2009, 11:42:25 am »
absolutely shocking this.

mosaic should be binned.

Offline the-lightning

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Re: A thorny friendship
« Reply #11 on: December 8, 2009, 11:43:50 am »
However, we can't exactly react only on this. It would be disrespectful to Fiorentina fans to suspect them without any sort of opportunity to respond.

i agree with you but the images are clear. Noone Fiorentina supporter can deny that Liverpool red shirt with that shameful name and number on its back.

I hope your Kop leaders can soon deal with the matter and decide the opportunity to keep a friendship based on those facts...

Offline DonkeyWan

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Re: A thorny friendship
« Reply #12 on: December 8, 2009, 11:46:54 am »
How would you feel about maintaining the cordial relationships, but at the same time making it clear that we don't condone this kind of baiting and genuinely feel contrition over Heysel?
Beatings will continue until morale improves...

Offline Rafas3leggedtable

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Re: A thorny friendship
« Reply #13 on: December 8, 2009, 11:53:33 am »
'I hope your Kop leaders can soon deal with the matter'

We have a leader now?
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Offline shanklyboy

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Re: A thorny friendship
« Reply #14 on: December 8, 2009, 11:58:10 am »
I think the Juve fan who wrote that open letter needs to start by educating himself to begin with.
Some of the things said in that letter leave a sour taste in my mouth.
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Offline SMD

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Re: A thorny friendship
« Reply #15 on: December 8, 2009, 11:58:43 am »
i agree with you but the images are clear. Noone Fiorentina supporter can deny that Liverpool red shirt with that shameful name and number on its back.

I hope your Kop leaders can soon deal with the matter and decide the opportunity to keep a friendship based on those facts...

Of course I agree that there's no excuse for wearing our shirt like that but it would be hypocritical of us to condemn Fiorentina fans en masse without looking at this objectively.
We still have twats that wear shirts with Munich on the back. They're only a handful but they exist in every fanbase.

I completely understand Juve's position on this and I can see why you're demanding action now.
I think it's Fiorentina's right to clear the air over this and maybe, though admittedly unlikely, it will force the element glorifying Heysel to back down.
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Offline the-lightning

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Re: A thorny friendship
« Reply #16 on: December 8, 2009, 12:02:40 pm »
How would you feel about maintaining the cordial relationships, but at the same time making it clear that we don't condone this kind of baiting and genuinely feel contrition over Heysel?

well as a Liverpool supporter i would require an explanation on why Fiorentina fans put 39 deads on my red shirt.

without that, i couldn't be able of maintaining a cordial relationship ...

Offline Sir Afghan

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Re: A thorny friendship
« Reply #17 on: December 8, 2009, 12:03:26 pm »
Hard to know what to make of all that. It sounds like we're on dangerous ground and destined to upset someone.

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Re: A thorny friendship
« Reply #18 on: December 8, 2009, 12:03:26 pm »
A gesture should be made, no doubt about that.  As I read the OP, I had visions of a lone Kopite* walking to the Annie Road with a banner depicting their banner being shoved up the arse of a MENO 39 shirt wearing Fiorentina supporter.  'Friendship's built on respect' type sentiments in big letters.

*It might take more than one to carry it though

Ultras may be bad in a lot of ways but they don't lie. They are honest and brave.

Steady on.
« Last Edit: December 8, 2009, 12:07:55 pm by Rigga »

Offline the-lightning

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Re: A thorny friendship
« Reply #19 on: December 8, 2009, 12:04:43 pm »
'I hope your Kop leaders can soon deal with the matter'

We have a leader now?

i'm not into Kop's hierarchy, but i assume there's some people in charge of that role

Offline Sir Afghan

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Re: A thorny friendship
« Reply #20 on: December 8, 2009, 12:05:50 pm »
i'm not into Kop's hierarchy, but i assume there's some people in charge of that role

Not really...

Offline Rigga

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Re: A thorny friendship
« Reply #21 on: December 8, 2009, 12:08:52 pm »
i'm not into Kop's hierarchy, but i assume there's some people in charge of that role

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Offline TheVoiceOfRiise

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Re: A thorny friendship
« Reply #22 on: December 8, 2009, 12:12:52 pm »
what this boils down to is simple. Italian club rivalry, nothing to do with us. fact!
we have already made gestures to Juventus wherever possible, some have accepted, some havent. Fact!
we have no rivalry with Fiorentina, why start one over the fact that they, like all clubs, have some morons for supporters.
Yes, I can understand why it would annoy us that someone is using our shirt as a tool to insult another team in such a disrespectful way, we would be equally outraged were it the other way around, but this is truly a matter for the weak italian football bigwigs, not the supporters to have to deal with. It's a minefield and somebody, somewhere is going to get upset whatever the outcome.
this is not our battle, we have nothing to gain from being involved in any Heysel propaganda coming from either Fiorentina or Juventus.
we should continue our dignified stance as we have since.
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Offline jaymc

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Re: A thorny friendship
« Reply #23 on: December 8, 2009, 12:20:13 pm »
i'm not into Kop's hierarchy, but i assume there's some people in charge of that role

Not really mate. Its not like Italy here. we don't have ultras or organised groups in the way that you do. Everything is a lot more spontaeneus over here.

Sorry to hear about the abuse you are getting over your tragedy.

Offline the-lightning

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Re: A thorny friendship
« Reply #24 on: December 8, 2009, 12:23:45 pm »
this is not our battle, we have nothing to gain from being involved in any Heysel propaganda coming from either Fiorentina or Juventus.

that's why you have to understand why an unknown italian club that supports you since may 29 1985, now is asking you friendship.

it's just like if a nazi based club would ask Juve fans friendship because of italian fascist past.
iwould not be proud of that

Offline matthew45

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Re: A thorny friendship
« Reply #25 on: December 8, 2009, 12:24:01 pm »
If as the article says the main reason for the twinning is due to Heysel they can fuck off!

Why?
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Re: A thorny friendship
« Reply #26 on: December 8, 2009, 12:26:10 pm »
[quote author=the-
As I mentioned earlier it's obvious that there still is a huge distance between us mainly because your hools, the real responsible for what happened, never looked for forgiveness, if not few of them in private and only 20 years later (forgiveness that was by the way refused by Otello Lorentini - president of the association of the victims of Heysel - just before our encounter in 2005). Not only, the majority of them still say that they were attacked by Juve fans and that they only defended themselves. With these people there could not be any dialogue, only hate, forever and ever.

 It will be very difficult for you and us to come close until there are still people on your side that are happy for what happened.


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[/quote]

I have a problem with this.

Quite frankly I feel we should distance ourselves from the Fiorentina fans if there is an ulterior motive to the 'twinning'. It really is something we can do without.

As for Juventus, it is quite clear they still hold us 100% responsible for Heysel and some of the comments in that letter are pretty ignorant.


Offline the-lightning

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Re: A thorny friendship
« Reply #27 on: December 8, 2009, 12:28:45 pm »
Of course I agree that there's no excuse for wearing our shirt like that but it would be hypocritical of us to condemn Fiorentina fans en masse without looking at this objectively.
We still have twats that wear shirts with Munich on the back. They're only a handful but they exist in every fanbase.

i totally agree.

but the point is that the main reason for the twinning is Heysel.

any italian football fan, of every team, knows that.

Offline DangerScouse

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Re: A thorny friendship
« Reply #28 on: December 8, 2009, 12:30:00 pm »

Offline SMD

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Re: A thorny friendship
« Reply #29 on: December 8, 2009, 12:32:28 pm »
i totally agree.

but the point is that the main reason for the twinning is Heysel.

any italian football fan, of every team, knows that.

24 years later, we are still tarred as completely responsible for Heysel while UEFA get off scott free.
We of all clubs know what it's like, that's what you're asking. We can't enter into a knee jerk action.
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Offline Greyfox

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Re: A thorny friendship
« Reply #30 on: December 8, 2009, 12:33:36 pm »
Who has actually agreed to this "twinning" malarkey??....nobody asked me, ...anybody ask you???there was no "vote"...are we gonna be sending people on exchange visits like councillors.??..


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Re: A thorny friendship
« Reply #31 on: December 8, 2009, 12:34:08 pm »
So there's a mosaic set for Wednesday? Oh my, this is fucking embarrassing. The club are absolute knob heads.

Offline TheVoiceOfRiise

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Re: A thorny friendship
« Reply #32 on: December 8, 2009, 12:36:27 pm »
that's why you have to understand why an unknown italian club that supports you since may 29 1985, now is asking you friendship.

it's just like if a nazi based club would ask Juve fans friendship because of italian fascist past.
iwould not be proud of that

but to tar all fiorentina fans with the same brush would be both ignorence and madness.
we, as Liverpool fans will never be able to stop idiot fans of other clubs doing stupid, insensitive things.
Should we therefore just shun all other clubs supporters?
we all acknowledge the actions of the 'bad' fiorentina fans, we suffer a similar lack of empathy from our fierce rivals. I would not reject the friendship of other people because of one idiots actions...
maybe i'm just soft.
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Offline Farman

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Re: A thorny friendship
« Reply #33 on: December 8, 2009, 12:40:17 pm »
i'm not into Kop's hierarchy, but i assume there's some people in charge of that role

The-lightning, There is a cultural difference here that I think Juve's fans need to be aware of.

These fan movements, leadership and symbolism is just not part of what English fans do. Liverpool fans have only recently got together, in the last year or two, to form any sort of anti-establishment group (Spirit of Shankly - SOS), and frankly the catalyst for that was not so much the natural need for such a group but in fact the need to tackle issues arising from the poor way the club was being run for fans, the main issue being the ownership and debt.

I was not aware of any of this 'twinning' as you call it, and I would imagine 99% of fans are the same way; it just doesn't register. Liverpool fans - with only a few exceptions - will always be respectful of opposition teams and their fans. This will undoubtedly happen again on Wednesday and should not be misinterpreted as some sort of support for some ultra's sick pleasure over what happend at Heysel. Generally I would have thought this is not the sort of thing SOS would get involved with, and there are no other supporter's groups that would have the reach or influence to make some sort of statement or gesture with so little notice. Basically, Juve's fans should realise we don't have the same culture of fan leadership, or any sort of gang philosophy where we form mass friendships with other fans for questionable reasons.

The letter you posted concerns me. There are no Liverpool fans who take any pleasure or pride in what happened at Heysel. Liverpool actually have a very small hooligan element these days; even chanting about Manchester United's disaster is frowned upon by most. You'll find most reds are aware of what happened at Heysel, but at the same time they will reject FULL culpability over what happened there. What those supporters who were involved did was indeed shameful, but the role of the authorities - those in charge of ground selection, segregation, safety etc - it is their direct failiure which was at the core of the disaster. What Liverpool fans did was a regular occurance by many fans across the continent at the time, there was never any intent to kill. The authorities' criminal incompetence ensured circumstances were such that such a tragedy resulted. Whilst I understand Juventus fans' feelings over this, I have coime across many who simply don't understand what really occured, and are more than willing to pin ALL the blame at Liverpool's feet without the same level of criticism for those in charge.
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Offline DonkeyWan

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Re: A thorny friendship
« Reply #34 on: December 8, 2009, 12:43:10 pm »

Quite frankly I feel we should distance ourselves from the Fiorentina fans if there is an ulterior motive to the 'twinning'. It really is something we can do without.

As for Juventus, it is quite clear they still hold us 100% responsible for Heysel and some of the comments in that letter are pretty ignorant.


I agree strongly with your first point, clear there is a lack of sincerity here and in addition we are being used to make cheap laughs. Worse still, the Heysel disaster is being mocked and treated as a component in a particularly vicious joke. That is completely wrong.

As to your second point, I think at this point its something of a red herring. The issue here is not to educate fans who are unwilling to hear and it would be unfortunate if the central issue was lost amidst consternation over the perception of Liverpool amongst Juve fans.

The most important point here is that we have become unwittingly embroiled in a particularly vicious and nasty joke, perpetrated by a club that have no empathy with us, or with the Heysel tragedy. In fact we are being mocked and Heysel is being mocked and the only result from this will be worsened relations with Juve. I do not now for a moment believe that Fiorentina's overtures of friendship are genuine.
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Offline Niru Red4ever

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Re: A thorny friendship
« Reply #35 on: December 8, 2009, 12:52:26 pm »
Complicated stuff.

Surprising really how often we take things at a face value and find out we have been taken for a ride. Though now I would like to do a detailed study and out facts for myself before commenting.

Though if this 'meno 39' stuff is true, it is downright sick and should be allowed in Anfield.
« Last Edit: December 8, 2009, 12:54:38 pm by Niru Red4ever »
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Re: A thorny friendship
« Reply #36 on: December 8, 2009, 12:56:20 pm »
I agree strongly with your first point, clear there is a lack of sincerity here and in addition we are being used to make cheap laughs. Worse still, the Heysel disaster is being mocked and treated as a component in a particularly vicious joke. That is completely wrong.

As to your second point, I think at this point its something of a red herring. The issue here is not to educate fans who are unwilling to hear and it would be unfortunate if the central issue was lost amidst consternation over the perception of Liverpool amongst Juve fans.



I understand what you are saying, but still feel the need to contest some of the points in the letter that are ill-informed and ,quite frankly, garbage.

Offline RedBoywonder

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Re: A thorny friendship
« Reply #37 on: December 8, 2009, 12:58:50 pm »
I don't like the thought of our name being used to glorify/ Mock the death of 39 people, infact it sickens me.
If the only reason the Fiorentina fans want a 'special relationship' with us, is to taunt juve fans then they can fuck off, its the type of sick thing I would expect from the bitters or the mancs.

We should be above this, we should tread very carefully over this thorny issue & not be used as a pawn in a disrespectful, vile swipe at Juve fans.
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Re: A thorny friendship
« Reply #38 on: December 8, 2009, 12:59:17 pm »
Dangerous ground this linking business. I think too many of us take people on face value and trust other supporter's groups too much, ie: it is "agreed to" without serious digging being done. What is a well meaning gesture on our part might cause serious offence and aggro with the Juve fans.

If their motives for wanting to have an association with our club are purely based around rubbing salt in the wounds of Juve fans over the Heysel disaster, then they (fiorentina) can get stuffed in my opinion.
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Offline red_til_i_die

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Re: A thorny friendship
« Reply #39 on: December 8, 2009, 12:59:33 pm »
Firstly I don't condone anyone using another clubs tragedy as a weapon to hurt, offend or laugh at another club. I feel this everytime I hear teams singing songs about, Munich, Hillsborough or Heysel. So I don't condone the actions of the idiots who did what they did at the Fiorentina vs Juventus match three weeks ago, especially using the club I love.

Liverpool fans don't want to offend anyone. We have offered a hand in friendship before and had backs turned on us for something that no one in that ground that night would have been responsible for.
but it looks like someone is going to get unintentionally offended one way or the other.

If we do what the Juve fans ask (if we could organise it in time) then were basically tarring all Fiorentina fans with the same brush and accusing them of only doing the twinning as a plot to hurt Juventus fans.

If we don't accuse them of doing that then Juventus fans assume that we don't want to start to improve the relationship between us and them and simply don't care.

So what do we do? Were dammed if we do and were damned if we don't.

The best thing would be to start communications with both sets of fans to find out what's really happening but were being put into an unwinnable situation.
But from what the-lightning is saying, Juventus fans wouldn't be prepared to talk to us so we could find out. 
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