Author Topic: SPOILERS Mr Blessed & Mrs Barney say "NO Discussion of Chains!" Game of Thrones  (Read 704122 times)

Offline jooneyisdagod

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There is no authenticity drawn from feudal society in the depiction of black armies sacrificing themselves for white people; rather that's colonial. For that matter, the trope of hysterical women is not drawn from feudal society either. I suspect that's a Victorian invention but someone more versed in Feminist theory/women's history would be needed to confirm that. I had no problems with Sansa's rape: it wasn't actually shown. I'm sure it happened then and happens today.

No, but it makes sense within the context of the story. There weren't many white people who destroyed major slaver cities in the past either. Moreover, at least in the books, the slavers are race agnostic. Hysterical women is a trope for sure but who is hysterical in the show? I read Dany burning down Kings Landing not as the actions of a hysterical woman but that of a cold, narcissistic, megalomaniac who had decided that she was going to deliver fire and blood to people she hated while the common folk were just collateral damage. Cersei has always been cold and calculating as well. The only characters I think of as hysterical are Catelyn Stark and Lysa Arryn.
Quote from: Dion Fanning

The chants for Kenny Dalglish that were heard again on Wednesday do not necessarily mean that the fans see him as the saviour. This is not Newcastle, longing for the return of Kevin Keegan. Simply, Dalglish represents everything Hodgson is not and, in fairness, everything Hodgson could or would not hope to be.

Offline royhendo

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It's been a bit like following a kid through the youth system to the reserves, where he's rattling them in at record levels, making magic happen, leading his peers at levels above his age group, and making the old heads believe he's the next Dalglish or Cruyff, only to see the development hit the skids, with him ending up at Scunthorpe for the rest of his career.

If you enjoyed the kid's development enough you analyse it to the nth degree, and it makes no real sense, but you reach for ways to rationalise it all. But then you discover that two of the youth coaches couldn't get their heads around his maverick philosophies on the game and marginalised him in favour of players that fitted their Hodgson/Reep-style model of football. And you feel a little angry about that for a while. The game was robbed of something. You're not quite sure what, but something. But you still try and find streams of him playing from time to time to see if there are any flashes of the old magic, despite him having looked dead behind the eyes for several years, a beer gunt having started to overhang the band of his shorts.
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Offline royhendo

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tv ratings are never a barometer of quality, but I just found it fairly amusing how this series has been slated by people on the internet yet the amount of people actually watching it seems to have gone up.

It's not that complicated is it? A hard core niche following that grew up around the books and the genre, geek-centric, spreads out to the periphery of that catchment, then over a few years it systematically alienates that viewer base while capitalising on the now viral structure that's in place - a show that literally had become able to promote itself without any effort (count the number of youtube channels and blogs on the subject alone). It's gone Mills and Boon. Mills and Boon and its genre is the most popular literary vehicle in the world. It is amusing though - not sure we all find it amusing in the same way, but it certainly is laughable.
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Offline voodoo ray

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I'm not analysing it I merely found it amusing.

Offline Henry Gale

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I looked at a picture from the next episode. Not really a spoiler but I'll use the tags just in case  ;D


Offline royhendo

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I'm not analysing it I merely found it amusing.

Which neatly encapsulates the two sides of the entire discussion for me.

I’m analysing it and I don’t merely find it amusing. :)
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Offline No666

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It's been a bit like following a kid through the youth system to the reserves, where he's rattling them in at record levels, making magic happen, leading his peers at levels above his age group, and making the old heads believe he's the next Dalglish or Cruyff, only to see the development hit the skids, with him ending up at Scunthorpe for the rest of his career.

If you enjoyed the kid's development enough you analyse it to the nth degree, and it makes no real sense, but you reach for ways to rationalise it all. But then you discover that two of the youth coaches couldn't get their heads around his maverick philosophies on the game and marginalised him in favour of players that fitted their Hodgson/Reep-style model of football. And you feel a little angry about that for a while. The game was robbed of something. You're not quite sure what, but something. But you still try and find streams of him playing from time to time to see if there are any flashes of the old magic, despite him having looked dead behind the eyes for several years, a beer gunt having started to overhang the band of his shorts.
:D Yeah - the writers deliver a Hodgson-esque display pretty much nails it.
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Offline royhendo

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PS both are of course valid.
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Offline rob1966

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I'm not a fanboy, I'm not arsed about character arcs, I just want to watch entertaining TV, afterall, the writers own the characters and it is up to them to decide what happens. The issue I have had is that it has all become rushed and there has been some shit scenes.

I don't give a shit if it was a parley, Cersei would not pass up that opportunity to at least kill the last dragon, any commander would be aware that once the scorpions were known about, a way of exploiting their very obvious weaknesses would be found.
People can make as many excuses for how Euron hit the dragon, I was a great bit of TV for the surprise element as a viewer, but fuck off, its a scorpion, not a SAM or a Phoenix (fire and forget missile), it is basic shit, if you cannot see your target, then you cannot hit it and how the hell did Euron know what height and direction the dragon was flying from? Somehow he magically get the fleet in the exact channel he did and knew that they would fly past presenting an easy target and then gets a direct hit first shot.
Then the fight with Jaime, he manages to end up on the exact beach as Jaime at the same time?

Offline voodoo ray

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I think anything involving euron is fair game for abuse because both the character and everything he was involved in was shite.

Offline Red Viper or RedViper87 please? Thanks x

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I think anything involving euron is fair game for abuse because both the character and everything he was involved in was shite.

Possibly one of the worst characters of any TV show.

Offline Big Jezza’s Jizza

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They have released a picture from the next one its very.....


“I carry them with me: what they would have thought and said and done. Make them a part of who I am. So even though they’re gone from the world they’re never gone from me.”

Miss you Tracy more and more every day xxx

Offline Nobby Reserve

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I think anything involving euron is fair game for abuse because both the character and everything he was involved in was shite.

Agree. And what makes it worse is that B&W seemed obsessed with him. I think some of the more ridiculous scenes were adapted/written just to involve him (the killing of Rhaegal for a start)
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Offline Raaphael

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I like the new season. It has happened a little bit too fast maybe. And the Euron character is shite. We can all agree on that.

Offline Sharado

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Agree. And what makes it worse is that B&W seemed obsessed with him. I think some of the more ridiculous scenes were adapted/written just to involve him (the killing of Rhaegal for a start)

I think they wanted to involve him to make him matter, because no one cared about him. Absolute pantomime character.
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Offline Red Viper or RedViper87 please? Thanks x

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Agree. And what makes it worse is that B&W seemed obsessed with him. I think some of the more ridiculous scenes were adapted/written just to involve him (the killing of Rhaegal for a start)

Euron killing a dragon is probably something they got from GRRM, but Euron in the books is essentially a completely different character from the Euron in the show.

Offline Big Jezza’s Jizza

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I have this thing for some reason about Bran turning Jon into the new Night King ..... it would lead to a poetic ending he could bring all the dead back to life in Kings Landing and take out Danni her army and dragon.

But I guess it would involve Bran fast traveling to Kings Landing.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2019, 10:25:53 AM by Big Jezza’s Jizza »
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Miss you Tracy more and more every day xxx

Offline rob1966

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I think they wanted to involve him to make him matter, because no one cared about him. Absolute pantomime character.

He is the Man City of GoT

Online JackWard33

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I don't think we will agree on this, but I can only go by what I have seen and read about in real life and what I have seen in other comparable works of fiction. Dany didn't act like a tyrant, she acted more like an entertaining TV character through most of this. Now she didn't have to be twirling her mustache through the previous 7 seasons, but they could have done so much more. Oh well. 

She didn’t?! Her basic motivation is the acquisition of power as an absolute ruler - that’s base tyranny
She enjoyed the brutal death of her brother, has routinely burned enemies alive, mass killed opposing groups whether they included innocent members or not and executed prisoners, she only ever delayed the sacking of the city because she was pursuaded from her own desires.
She’s done some good things but that’s kind of the point - she has absolute power; people are asked to live to her will and whim

By making her super fit, giving her a ton of characters we like around her who fawn over her and spending a lot of time with her the show has done a great job of making us sympathetic to a tyrant; it’s a great morality tale for the biasies in us all 

Offline royhendo

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“She’s done some good things”. ;D
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Offline clinical

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I looked at a picture from the next episode. Not really a spoiler but I'll use the tags just in case  ;D


Not sure respawning is strong in GOT
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Offline royhendo

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I’ll just delete this earlier one and post it again. She’s done some good things indeed.

Tyrant? Not without some decent writing she’s not.

-

In the meantime she risks her own future taking the women being raped as her own and demands no more barbarism from a Dothraki horde whose entire culture is founded upon it.

And then she goes to Astapor and emancipates all the slaves, cos, you know, human rights or something. And then in whatever the other city was called, I can’t actually remember. She has to wait ages there cos she can’t let them be taken back over by the slave masters. And she hates the fighting pits. You know... human rights an that. And she actually chains up two of her dragons after a single kid gets burned to death. But yeah, the idea of her being “mad” whatever that means has been foreshadowed sufficiently that it’s entirely plausible she’d burn a million or so people to death while the one person mental enough to actually burn several thousand to death mirrors this yin yang flip and becomes a blubbering wreck.

She suffered for all of those decisions, Dany. Sons Of The Harpy, her peeps getting shored up in a pyramid while she was back in Vaes Dothrak, and she even gets offers to feck off with ships to Westeros but she turns it down to do what she saw as the right thing per the story.

Now. The writers had plenty chance to work the madness angle. She saved the Maegi from the horde and the Maegi kills her unborn child and makes her husband an immobile automaton. She gives up a dragon for a sojourn beyond the wall. But supposedly losing Jorah and Missandei triggers grief and naturally grieving sets off murderous rage in her.

Mind you when Jorah was her only real friend she found out he betrayed her and banished him, leaving her with a load of folk she couldn’t be sure she could trust. Yet she didn’t go tits then. She even forgave Jorah.

Human rights, human rights, human rights, abolished slavery, forgiveness, self sacrifice... yeah she’s definitely prone to burning a million innocents the minute things don’t go her way.
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Online JackWard33

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“She’s done some good things”. ;D

her hair braid in season 7 for examps

Offline clinical

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Possibly one of the worst characters of any TV show.

Definitely one of the worst characters ever. Poor actor too. 
Thank Fowler we're not getting Caulker

Offline Nobby Reserve

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Definitely one of the worst characters ever. Poor actor too.


A cross between Oliver Reed and Syd James.

This season, I shall mostly be wetting the bed.

Offline clinical

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I have this thing for some reason about Bran turning Jon into the new Night King ..... it would lead to a poetic ending he could bring all the dead back to life in Kings Landing and take out Danni her army and dragon.

But I guess it would involve Bran fast traveling to Kings Landing.

Bran's storyline is done. The most pointless storyline of all time.
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Online JackWard33

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I’ll just delete this earlier one and post it again. She’s done some good things indeed.

Tyrant? Not without some decent writing she’s not.

-

In the meantime she risks her own future taking the women being raped as her own and demands no more barbarism from a Dothraki horde whose entire culture is founded upon it.

And then she goes to Astapor and emancipates all the slaves, cos, you know, human rights or something. And then in whatever the other city was called, I can’t actually remember. She has to wait ages there cos she can’t let them be taken back over by the slave masters. And she hates the fighting pits. You know... human rights an that. And she actually chains up two of her dragons after a single kid gets burned to death. But yeah, the idea of her being “mad” whatever that means has been foreshadowed sufficiently that it’s entirely plausible she’d burn a million or so people to death while the one person mental enough to actually burn several thousand to death mirrors this yin yang flip and becomes a blubbering wreck.

She suffered for all of those decisions, Dany. Sons Of The Harpy, her peeps getting shored up in a pyramid while she was back in Vaes Dothrak, and she even gets offers to feck off with ships to Westeros but she turns it down to do what she saw as the right thing per the story.

Now. The writers had plenty chance to work the madness angle. She saved the Maegi from the horde and the Maegi kills her unborn child and makes her husband an immobile automaton. She gives up a dragon for a sojourn beyond the wall. But supposedly losing Jorah and Missandei triggers grief and naturally grieving sets off murderous rage in her.

Mind you when Jorah was her only real friend she found out he betrayed her and banished him, leaving her with a load of folk she couldn’t be sure she could trust. Yet she didn’t go tits then. She even forgave Jorah.

Human rights, human rights, human rights, abolished slavery, forgiveness, self sacrifice... yeah she’s definitely prone to burning a million innocents the minute things don’t go her way.


The point to me is that its a fine line between burning a surrendered soldier in front of you and burning a surrendered occupant of an enemy city. We've seen that time and again in the real world.
I don't see it as a descent into madness but a logical continuation of absolute power. (was President Truman "mad'?).  A descent into madness is much less interesting fwiw.
To me the point of the stories is that if someone seeks dominion over other people that tyranny comes with the capacity to commit 'evil' acts - which she's undeniably had despite her positive actions which you list here.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2019, 11:41:13 AM by JackWard33 »

Offline voodoo ray

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Bollocks to bran! He can fuck off the stupid vacant eyed gimp. He hope someone pushes him off the fucking wall.

Offline clinical

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Bollocks to bran! He can fuck off the stupid vacant eyed gimp. He hope someone pushes him off the fucking wall.
;D
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Offline Buck Pete

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A cross between Oliver Reed and Syd James.



Haha yeah defo Ollie Reed

Knew he reminded me of someone :)

Offline Cpt_Reina

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The point to me is that its a fine line between burning a surrendered soldier in front of you and burning a surrendered occupant of an enemy city. We've seen that time and again in the real world.
I don't see it as a descent into madness but a logical continuation of absolute power. (was President Truman "mad'?).  A descent into madness is much less interesting fwiw.
To me the point of the stories is that if someone seeks dominion over other people that tyranny comes with the capacity to commit 'evil' acts - which she's undeniably had despite her positive actions which you list here.

She was tempted by such acts of brutality many more times than she actually got to enact too. Her council had to talk her round on more than a few occasions.

As you've said its all about the framing.

Those times she was needlessly barbaric, it was framed as 'Yaaaassss kweeeen' so we as an audience are manipulated in to overlooking it.

The times she was talked back from the edge by Tyrion or Ser Jorah or whoever it was framed as her overcoming her Targaryen-ness rather than us as an audience being asked to recognise that she's got that madness in her we were asked to give her credit for suppressing it because of how it was told to us.

Her getting to the point where she's leveling a city will always be somewhat jarring given that so many people bought in to the framing of her as the great white hope, breaking the wheel, liberator of slaves. Give us more episodes and better writing and there'd still be a great number of people who didnt think it felt like Dany, cos they bought in to the 'lie' the show told us.

You can say the framing was wrong, given where she ended up. And there's an argument to be had there, maybe it was and maybe the show should have been more overt in giving us as the audience more of a gaze at her innate madness/tendency to act out.

Or you can attempt to appreciate the subtlety with which it was hinted at, look back and question/reexamine your reading of her actions and her character and see some depth.

Largely it appears that people seem to be going for the first one, mostly because the subtlety of that earlier writing was lost and as the show sped towards its conclusion and her descent in to madness also had to be expedited. Which again is fair criticism.

Does the 'slap dash' way in which she's had to turn ruin it for me personally? No. Cos I still enjoyed the slow burn build up and I'm not *that* invested in this being a work of art rather than a tv show about daft stuff like dragons, zombies, magic and all the other weird shit we just decide to enjoy for what it is.

Offline Musketeer Gripweed

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So, was Aerys always the Mad King? Or was he kept under control by his hand, Tywin Lannister?
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Offline Craig S

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Yup and if Jamie's hand hadn't magically grown back , but whatever.

That wasn't actually in the show. It was from a behind the scenes shot.

Unless you expect him to be that much of a method actor, he cuts his own hand off.

Offline S

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I think anything involving euron is fair game for abuse because both the character and everything he was involved in was shite.
Think he started off fine. When he claims the Iron Islands from Yara, he came across as this really hardened captain who'd seen everything.

He very quickly turned into a bit of a cartoon character. Like Bronn, pretty much everything he says is some joke or innuendo.

It's a shame, because I think the actor is good.

Offline royhendo

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It is indeed all about the catastrophically shite framing. AKA catastrophically shite writing.
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Offline mikey_LFC

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It is indeed all about the catastrophically shite framing. AKA catastrophically shite writing.

Isn’t it clever framing, to show it from one perspective to eventually reveal a different perspective that sheds a new light on a character? A sleight of hand. A shocking reveal that shows the power of propaganda and dangers of being stuck in a bubble. It’s an uncomfortable revelation for us as we’ve been drawn into her role as saviour, but it doesn’t make it bad writing.
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Offline Qston

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https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2019/may/16/stop-the-nitpicking-this-season-of-game-of-thrones-is-miraculous-the-bells

Apologies if already posted but a perhaps more balanced view that is worth a read alongside what some have already posted.

(spoilers in it if you haven`t seen the last episode)
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Offline FlashGordon

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This thread man  ;D

I've watched it from the start, may have gone downhill slightly but I wasn't the biggest fan of season 2 of the Wire either and that's still one of the greatest shows all time.

Honestly some people need to take a step back and go for a walk outside. It's not healthy to be this obsessed over a TV show, we have LFC for that.
So bloody what? If you watch football to be absolutely miserable then go watch cricket.

Offline jooneyisdagod

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https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2019/may/16/stop-the-nitpicking-this-season-of-game-of-thrones-is-miraculous-the-bells

Apologies if already posted but a perhaps more balanced view that is worth a read alongside what some have already posted.

(spoilers in it if you haven`t seen the last episode)

It's not a balanced view though. It simply acknowledges all the criticisms raised by people and goes, "yes, but!"
Quote from: Dion Fanning

The chants for Kenny Dalglish that were heard again on Wednesday do not necessarily mean that the fans see him as the saviour. This is not Newcastle, longing for the return of Kevin Keegan. Simply, Dalglish represents everything Hodgson is not and, in fairness, everything Hodgson could or would not hope to be.